Is this the same Michael Moore who's past "documentaries" are filled with half-truths, obfuscation and outright lies?

What makes me curious is why people who claim to lean towards Libertarians politically would want a government-mandated cradle-to-grave medical plan. You do realize that this socialized medicine would not be free, but would instead be funded by your tax dollars? Are you really willing to pay 20% or more in income tax to the Federal Government for sub-standard care?

If you don't believe that a government-mandated medical system would be sub-standard care, take a look at how the Government already runs health care systems in its VA hospitals across the country. Personally, I don't want my medical needs dictated to me by some bureaucrat 2,000 miles away in Washington.  There are already better alternatives, such as HSA accounts.

We don't need socialized medicine. What we really need is insurance and tort reform, which are the primary causes for increased medical costs.

The Saint

You might not need to increase taxes if you cut back on the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on arms.

No, but I have seen his other films, which is what prompted my initial question. Despite what his films are billed as, Moore does not make documentaries--his films are Hollywood agitprop, and anyone who watches this film thinking its an accurate portrayal of the American medical system vs. the "miracle systems" of Socialism are naive, and easily duped. Likely Moore has relied upon the same hype and propaganda that the Clintons used in the '90s to try and push through their gargantuan universal health care proposal--no one was buying then, and no one is buying now.



Swapping one flawed system for another is not a rational solution--at the very least with the system in place now, I have a choice--I can choose my own doctor, insurance, and medical plan, or if need be, pay my medical expenses out-of-pocket. Under a Government-mandated universal system, I will have limited (if any) choice in doctors and medical plans, and I certainly would not be able to opt out of the system, but would be forced to pay exorbitant taxes to pay for lowest-common-denominator health care. No thanks.



I don't really need to suffer through Moore's self-serving diatribe in order to make an informed decision about the subject matter. Moore is not the first to propagandize the state of our medical system, and there's nothing new here outside the glossy Hollywood treatment his films typically receive. If Moore holds true to his modus operandi, no doubt he has scoured the country to find the worst case scenario in order to generalize the American medical system and insurance companies as co-conspirators to defraud the American people and deny them even the most basic medical care, while simultaneously painting an idealized picture of the socialized medical systems of Cuba, Canada, France, et al, while pulling out all the stops to force his captive audience to wonder why we here in America can't put together such a utopian system.

The problem is that it's all BS. Does Moore bother to show the avalanche of people who flock to this country from Canada and other countries to get the medical care their vaunted system denies them? Doubtful. As I understand it, Moore's movie makes a big deal out of the United States being ranked a lowly 37th in quality of care by the World Health Organization, yet conveniently ignores that Cuba ranks 39th, and the great Canadian system ranks only 30th. His claims about Cuban health care, according to Cubans who have experience with their own system, is also a lie. According to an interview with the Miami Herald, Dr. Julio Cesar Alfonso, a Miami doctor who practiced in Cuba for four years, says that the medical care tourists and VIP's receive is very different from what the general population receives. According to Dr. Alfonso, “If you’re a Cuban citizen and need a prescription drug, most doctors either tell you to ask your relatives in the U.S. to ship it to you or recommend alternative herbal remedies. That’s the degree of scarcity on the island.” Does Moore make this fact known to his audience? Again, doubtful.

I'm certainly no fan of the insurance companies in this country--I had my premium go from $400 to $1,000 per month, just because I had a child, which is preposterous. My wife is consistently labeled "high risk" by insurers, solely because she once had a benign cyst on her lower back. But at least under our current system, we can choose what insurance--if any--we wish to carry, and how much we are willing to pay. We moved to an HSA account, which lowered our premium to less than $200 per month--we get to keep our same doctor and same coverage, and the only difference is that the deductible is higher. Under a socialized medical system, we would have no such choice--our medical benefits would be dictated by the government, and our federal taxes would increase by 20% or more, just to trade one headache for another.

The Saint

How do they attain money for infrastructure? 

Hello Brian,

No less dishonest than the absolutist language Michael Moore uses in all his films to push his liberal agenda. The fact of the matter is that the Clinton's attempt to pass universal health care failed precisely because the people realize that despite the flaws in our medical system, replacing it with a monolithic government-mandated system is not the solution.



Hasty Generalization. 80% of the RRS membership is not representative of the population as a whole.



If I could opt out of it? Possibly--it depends on the rubrics of the system whether I would accept it as fair. But as I said in response to another post, we need to focus on what's likely, not what's possible; if the government were somehow able to pass a universal health care bill, it would likely not be a hybrid system in which citizens could "opt out", but would instead institute an increase in taxes across the board, and require participation in some fashion in order to justify this increase in taxes. 

 I believe in freedom of choice, not government control--like it or not, heath care coverage is not a human right one can or should demand from the State. 

The Saint

So in order to form an opinion about the benefits/drawbacks of universal health care, I have to see Michael Moore's movie first? Thats not very rational, as it falsely assumes that Moore is the first to bring this subject to light (he isn't), and that his arguments are authoritative (they aren't). I don't need to see his movie to make an informed comment on the subject of universal health care, and furthermore, I don't need to see his new movie to make the argument that Moore is a propagandist, having seen his other work. Put more plainly, I don't need to be a farmer to know when I'm standing in bullshit.

The Saint

 

So the stunt on the boat at gitmo and the cuban's to the rescue wasn't baldfaced propaganda? If a Christian ministry used such tactics (and they do) you would rip them a new asshole (not sure why, they have enough assholes among them as it is). But when the messenger promotes an idea you agree with (I also think healthcare is broken) he gets more slack than a post-ejaculatory penis.

Sounds rational to me. 

 

Surely you aren't as dense as you appear. Do you think ANYBODY approaching  Gitmo unannounced on a boat would be received with anything less than a security detail carrying big guns? I could go there asking the military to supply pink flying ponies to all the orphans and they would turn me away just as quickly. It was pure theater. And pure theater is a tactic used by Christian televangilists all the time - because it WORKS. Moore's propaganda does nothing but further divide the country on one of the most critical issues it faces. Plus he gets people to lap up his vomit like it was chocolate mousse. No wonder he loves what he does.

Oh really, you base this on loads of experience or are you simply guessing?  I see you have nothing to add other than ad hominem so perhaps I'll try speaking with the adults about this subject. 

About the healthcare system in candia having long waits, I have long waits in america. I sometimes have to wait 1 to 2 weeks to see a doctor. a few months for a mri, i have to schedule about a month in advance for a psychrtist appointment. On some other things that require specialists i usually have a wait quite a while for those too.  So it doesn't sound to long of a wait in candia for me, just my opinon.

I'm British. We have the national health service over here. It is far from perfect but it works and its free fro all.

The NHS costs us £65 billion in taxes per year thats about £1100 ($2200) per man woman and child in the UK.
In the US $2Trillion a year is spent of health inssurence or $6,700 per person.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

Proportionally you spend 2.5 times as much on health care. Infact proportionally you spend far more than any other nation. From what has been said it would seem that far from getting health care 2.5 times better than in the UK things are often actually worse in the USA. It fairly obvious why. The NHS is not interested in making a profit. Inssurence companies and private hospitals and doctors are.

The American system is simply very poor value for money. Infact its a complete and utter con. Totally inefficient. You spend 2.5 times what we do fro heavens sake!!! Wake up!! your being conned. The private sector is not always more efficient, it does not always give better value for money. Somethings need to be in the public domain - health care is most definitly one of them.

 

Sticks and stones buddy. Sticks and stones. At least my lapping up vomit like it was chocolate mousse had some flair.

 

Your ratioal VIP tag should be revoked. Micheal Moore's presentation is a massive appeal to emotion. Sort of like fundamentalist Christians. Micheal Moore conflates the facts that support his message and ignores the ones that don't. Sort of like fundamentalist creationists. Micheal Moore will invent things if nothing "real" exists if it supports his message. Sort of like Jesus freaks.

 

I think that the healthcare system is badly fucked up. But Mr Moore is not an avocate for anything but his ego. He turns my stomach as much as Benny Hinn.

I hear a lot of economic arguments from Americans in favour of free-market health care and I don't think they make sense. As I understand it, it is a basic assumption of economics that people can decline to purchase any product for any reason at any time. That is the whole idea behind a supply/demand graph - the area above the lines is the area where people are not purchasing. But you can't not purchase health care. The only ceiling on the amount you would be willing to spend to save your life is your net worth. Subjecting health care to market forces is, IMO, a mugging at scalpelpoint.

There are other things that don't work within an economic model. National defence. Parks. Welfare. I think health care belongs in that group. 

Nothing is perfect and neither is our Canadian health system. However it does protect us from the kind of horrific outcomes that Moore portrays in his film. We sacrifice some technology and service for care that is free at the point of purchase and that we are all 100% entitled to. No one in our system can deny us care, ever.

Also, the US media has overplayed the waiting list issue. If you have an immediate need for anything, you get it, period.  

 

I'm sorry, but posts like this from Canadians piss me off. Mendoza, did you even see Sicko? Do you have any idea what the alternative is to our publically funded system? Let me put it this way: if you were in the US and were one of the 40 million people without coverage, you would have been putting those stitches in yourself...just like the guy in the movie. Instead, you get taken care of with no money out of pocket, yet you want to come on here like a bitch and whine about not getting immediate attention for your little scratch. Fucking man up for god's sake.  You're like a guy that didn't get his coffee fast enough at Tim Hortons and wants to dismantle the entire free enterprise system.

If you ever get a real injury or health problem, you better get right back on here and post about how pathetically grateful you are  to all the rest of us Canadians who support the health system with our wallets and our words. It's people like you who give care and comfort to the rich bastards who are quite happy to buy private insurance, save on their tax bills and let the rest of us die in the gutters. 

BTW, it's entirely possible that even if you had private health care your claim for the stitches would have been denied because you were playing a "dangerous" sport. 

I think socialized healthcare is good for those who can't afford it.  However, I will continue with my work healthcare provider.  Can you imagine the shitty service you will receive being on socialized healthcare.

It's funny to read Americans on this forum rank on public health care when they haven't experienced for themselves the benefits, which incidentally override even the shorts falls of health care in Canada. An important fact must be noted: we do not have 'national' health care. What we have is the provinces and territories agreeing that they must offer a certain basic level of health care to all Canadian citizens. The health care system is within provincial authority, and some afford more to their citizens. It so happens that most of the Canadians on this forum live in the comparatively overpopulated province of Ontario. This necessarily skews what they think of the health care service. On that service, we may enjoy long emergency room waits, but remember Canadians are excessive hypochondriacs, going to emergency for a cough and sneeze or a cut eyebrow, instead of to a clinic. That we haven't got enough medical staff (just how many professional Canadians move to the US every year for jobs, for more money?) in some areas, that we sometimes operate under funded facilities are minor problems considering the alternative. I have used this health care system my entire life. I cannot imagine the expense in an American system for my lovely smile, for my cured infections, for the surgeries that have saved my hearing, my voice, or my life. I don't wish to imagine such expenses. I do not wish to imagine being made poor in order to live or to live comfortably, or as everyone else does. I'm sickened by the Canadians who have such serious problems with our health care. Perhaps they have never needed an annual visit to the optometrist, or the dentist, or a physician. Perhaps they have never needed pills they would die without, or pills they'd not function normally without. Perhaps they've never cut themselves or broken a limb, sprained a muscle, or fractured a bone. Perhaps they have lived without the necessity of health care, but if they ever have used it, they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. As for Americans who think poorly of universal health care, shame on you for the things you let your government do and for the things you let your government not do. Shame for willingly committing those who simply can't afford health care to some life less than your own; to the possibility of death or poverty. I can see no want in a system that at least does not willingly commit people to death or poverty. How disgusting to argue against universal health care.

I have to say that my expereince with private insurance ,mind you nto as bad as some in the movie, is far from good.  most of the time i hear things from people who are against socialized healthcare are things we have problems with mostly private healthcare. For example, long waiting times to see specialists. I've waited months to see specailsts before. I've heard a few say that you will only be able to see a select few doctors, thats how private insurance is its called "in network".  So, i see most of the problems that they bring up as things that are happening in our system, whereas from what i've read and heard aren't as big of problem or are the same  in the socialized healthcare system.