JCG,

The short answer is I take the Scriptures as my guide.  I know there the idea that man is basically good - all you have to do is adjust, educate, tweak, whatever - and THERE'S THE DIAMOND!  You may believe that, I don't know. 

I believe the Scriptures say man is spiritually dead.  Only God can bring man to life, and He does that in Jesus.  It's not a DIY job. 

While you may have an acceptable righteousness to some men, according to the Scriptures you can only have that by being in Christ and presenting yourself to God in the Wedding Garment He gives out - Christ.

mephibosheth

MattShizzle,

I think AND HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER the Bible applies to everything in life - past, present, and future....for eternity!!!

Proverbs 29.9:  "If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet". 

mephibosheth  (I'm betting on the ANVIL- in - HAMMER VS ANVIL - (especially if it's a turdhammer)

JCG,

What you need to learn to recognize is the voice of the One Shepherd.  I can recognize that all through the Scriptures.  If I pick up, say, Loren Eiseley (in fantasy land) or Joseph Smith (he's nothing to me)  it's a totally different ball game. 

This is illustrated in the far east by shepherds taking all their sheep to the watering hole.  When it's time to go, each shepherd just calls his own sheep.  They know the voice. 

In the Scriptures I see a lifetime of feasting - an eternity of feasting.  I'm not tempted by the Purina diet. 

I have a question for you, JCG.  I've been wondering what your position is on the subject of conscience.  Do you believe you have a conscience?  Are you in touch with it?  If so do you regard your contact with said conscience as "feeling" or something else?  What do you think "conscience" is? 

mephibosheth                    (checking the JCG dictionary under C)

The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by one Shepherd.  My son, beware of anything beyond these.  Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Dear meph,  thank you for not attempting to discredit my religious conversion.  I know that I was sincere in my effort to find God.  I came from a very religious conservative family and I was led in the sinner's prayer by my very Christian father who, if he were still alive, would not hesitate to attest to the genuine reality of my initial conversion and to my continued devotion, thereafter.

When my faith began to falter, it was he that I went to to find reassurance.  Unfortunately, his efforts failed and he willingly shut his mind off when I confronted him with the troubling examples that contradicted our religious doctrines.

Even now I have no objections in leaning upon a higher power to find guidance and relief.  If I did I would never become a Christian in the first place.  The problem is that the God depicted in the Old and New Testaments is a savage God who destroys human life on a whim;  he kills the innocent as well as the guilty; he is an insecure God who claims to value free will yet he stacks the deck in his favor by threatening to send us to Hell if we choose "improperly".

 "Love me or Ill burn you alive" is the framework within which all of man's choices regarding God are decided.  I have no need for a God who relates to humanity in that fashion.

If I ever discovered a god who was truly interested in my needs and didn't play games with my human frailty by constantly "testing" my faith and devotion then I would perhaps revert back to a life of faith.

My attitude toward all Abrahamic religion is that Yaweh, Allah, God can themselves go to Hell.  They are nothing but Divine Sociopaths who terrorize and degrade their followers with threats of torture if they don't bow and scrape. No thanks.

JCG,

Ah, JCG, you don't have to do anything - and you're doing great at it.

You didn't go very deep in your conscience answer, but that's ok.

I'm beginning to think you are going to be successful in what you seem to be trying to do. 

mephibosheth

If you have been foolish, exalting yourself, or if you have been devising evil, put your hand on your mouth. 

For pressing milk produces curds, pressing the nose produces blood, and pressing anger produces strife. 

JCG,

Worldly reasoning never arrives at certainty when it comes to salvation.  Argument can't bring a troubled heart to rest, certainty, or anchor. 

The rest Christ brings us to is in His Word.  Once we believe that what He says is truth - that settles it (even if we don't understand).  "Believe and Live" is  what the Scriptures say, and that deals with man's problem. 

mephibosheth

I never saw him as making things up -- more, I read it as twisting the perspective of what he observes, attempting to find pervasive meaning among the disparate, the isolated. Many of his essays are built isolation, which makes sense; as an anthropologist, he spent many solitary days in the deserts and fields. His was a life spent searching for a connection between the dry bones of the distant past, and the brittle dessicated grasses of the prairie, the playfulness of a fox pup, the clay of an eroding riverbank. I'm not sure which bits concern you -- could you give an example?

Ecclesiastes seemed to be both desolate and hopeful. I actually saw parallels between Ecclesiastes and Eiseley: the search for meaning among the meaningless, a thread of continuity that stretches from the past, through our lives, and into the future.

Ecclesiastes spends a lot of time contemplating death, and the futility of life without God. To me, that is too simple, too easy. Not that it can't be -- just that it isn't, as far as I can see. It's like that Farside cartoon, the one with two scientists at the chalkboard, and an equation with "and then a miracle happens" stuck right in the middle. To me, the solution that God provides meaning is senseless. It's like two sides of an equation, with "Then a miracle happens" plastered between.

I found Ecclesiastes echoing the precepts of Buddhism, too. That was kinda cool. Once I understood that connection, I went back and re-read it, and found both have a lot in common. Take away God from Ecclesiastes, and reincarnation from Buddhism (which is only present in some forms of Buddhism anyway), and the two are very similar -- the futility of desire, the concept that emotional pain is brought about by wanting, that acceptance of life is the way to peace and happiness.

Ecclesiastes gives God as a way to peace and happiness and acceptance. Buddhism leaves that up to the individual.

I guess I just see God as an unnecessary addition to the mix. Perhaps that makes my laughter madness, and my mirth folly; but I enjoy myself, and I enjoy life, and I feel that we (our whole species) is bound for our own greatness. I believe my meaning in life is independent of a creator, just as my child's meaning in life is independent of me. My meaning is to help -- in whatever small way I can -- to help us survive long enough to reach the stars. That's my personal meaning, I guess.

When I contemplate my position in this biosphere of ours, I feel small and insignificant. I feel that there is something greater than myself. I believe the only way to keep some echo of God out of your thoughts is to think only of yourself, to divest yourself of empathy. I don't believe God exists, other than as an artefact of our own feeling of ultimate insignificance, but there is something inside us that understands we are not the center of the universe, as either individuals or as a species, or even as a living planet.

The only reason I call it an "echo of God" is because we have God as a central part of our culture. It is a touchstone, a common word that represents a knowledge that isn't really knowledge. It's more a feeling, a certainty of something that is illogical, unprovable, and unknowable.

At least, that is how I view it.

Ecclesiastes contains wisdom. If that is your basis of wisdom, you could certainly do worse. I cannot see the necessity of God, though, and so that portion of Ecclesiastes is meaningless to me.

Thanks for letting me wander on, and thanks for recommending Ecclesiastes. I have read the Bible twice through in my life, and I don't think I ever saw anything special in Ecclesiastes (other than the Byrds lyrics). This time, I believe I understood quite a bit more. (Of course, I'm 20 years older now. Perhaps that has something to do with it.)

Take care, Sir. I'm sorry Eiseley wasn't your cup of tea. I hope you enjoyed the telling, if not the tale.

Tony the bold,

I appreciate your ability to discuss the subject without veering toward personal attack, not that personal attack bothers me - it's just distracting.

Anyway I enjoyed at least the quality of your answer (I was hoping it would convert you) and notice you have obviously done more Ecclesiastes homework than I have Eiseley, so I need to give him more of a chance first. 

And you did that with the kitchen underway?  So are you in chapter 2 of Ecclesiastes as far as your "building program" ? 

mephibosheth

You still dodged the question - why do you think you need Jesus in order to be a good person? I think you are a good person. I also think you were probably that way before you found your Jesus. why put yourself through the additional pressure of hoping you got the right number in the God lottery?

Interesting.

So why don't you go and mix your brand of christianity with the fundies ? Dilute some of that hatred with your love. You know, do something useful.

That's part of what took so long. Ecclesiastes really isn't long; but it took a couple of reads, and some time to think about it, before I felt I really knew what it was saying. All that with a kitchen remodel. (I'm installing a marble tile countertop next weekend -- I don't know how I let my wife talk me into these things.) So I'm a little slow in repsonding, I'm afraid.

I'd like to mention a couple of things. Both jcgadfly and I are saying pretty much the same thing. With me, it's only a small portion; with jcgadfly, it's his point. It is this:

Consider from our point of view. We don't see that God exists, and we don't see a need for God to exist. Look at your testimonial from that perspective. What you say is that you were spinning about on an existential problem (I'm not quite sure what that problem was, but we all spin about on an existential problem at one time or another). Then you found that Jesus could help you, and your problem was solved.

From our point of view, Jesus is a conception, a thought in our heads. Each of us holds a different conception of Jesus. For me, he's a character in a spiritual book designed to convey certain ideals. Others see him as a catalyst for terrible deeds. Others see him as an abstract reality, a pivotal figure in their own beliefs, but held yet at a distance.

So, again from our point of view, your problem was solved by something that is innately a part of you. It is a thought in your head. In the end, your problem was solved by you, using your conception of Jesus as a method to find your way to peace and contentment. jcgadfly comes right out and says what I merely imply: you are giving credit to a conception, without recognizing the conception as part of yourself. You had the strength all along, even if it was wrapped up in a conception of a spiritual being. Open up that conception, and you will see the strength is yours, and always has been.

Consider yourself from our point of view, and I believe you may understand a little more clearly why testimonials won't work on people like us. It won't sway you in your faith at all, but I think it's important to try to clearly understand our point of view.

Again, I'm merely representing our point of view. (Really, I'm only representing my point of view; jcgadfly's might actually be different.) Your experience was solely your own, and I cannot speak to it. I can only say how I interpret it, as a stranger.

That's the main reason I'm involved in this long thread at all. You appear to be a decent person with strong faith, and I desire to understand more about people with strong faith.

Don't read too much into that. I've been interested in belief for a very long time. I am also very fascinated by bigfoot, UFOs, 9/11 conspiracies, the Bilderberg group, psychic research, and other paranormal beliefs. I myself do not believe in any of those. (Well, the Bilderberg Group exists, but I don't think it controls the world; and I also believe persons in the US government had the information about 9/11, but because of communication lapses and basic ineptitude, nobody pieced it together.) So though I am interested in strong faith, I am not fishing for religion. (That's a song.) You are dropping your seeds on barren soil, to use a Biblical metaphor (one which has always seemed slightly icky to me).

I'm going to give Ecclesiastes another read, and I might have some specific questions for you. I'm going to branch out and try some non-KJB-based texts next. Plus, I'm going to go back and reread some Eiseley. It's been a long time since I've given him a read.

By the way: what is your interpretation of Ecclesiastes? What is it you see there that I am missing?

Tony the bold,

I had never consciously understood that in your arguments.  So that's what you're saying (I know, JCG flies high and lands where he will, so you don't speak for him or his landing pad). 

The first thing I want to say is: marble will stain - I hope you meant granite or soapstone.  I know people that have had marble ruined in a moment with, say, finger nail polish remover - very soft, very porus.  If it's at the point of no return, forget I mentioned it.  We installed 29 lineal feet of black African granite a while back - great stuff but expensive.  Interesting that on the bottom (unpolished) it looked common as concrete.

I'll have to really work at it to put myself in your viewpoint - that Jesus is a figment of my imagination - WOW, I don't think I have the imagination to stand in that position.  You don't rattle my faith with that, it's just so odd to me.  I don't know what to say to that. 

If I had to try to back in time before (as I now do) I experienced the Living Christ and the Holy Spirit living and working in me - I would fall back on the power of the gospel story - that is still just as powerful as it was 45 years ago to me. 

The Word of God lives and jumps off the page to me.  I get a recoil in my heart and spirit from it - it's like eating the healthiest to me.  I crave it everyday - as you or JCMcFly said, there's 'nothing like an addict enjoying his addiction.'

I understand you're not sick - so the physician would be rebuffed and insulted at your door, so I'll move away from any effort (obvious) to convert you, and on to the great book of Ecclesiastes.

Well, sorry for whatever I insult and bore you with that's obvious, but the Ecclesia - the "called out" refers to The Church in the New Testament, called out of the world and all that.

The guy that wrote it, Solomon, as moved by the Holy Spirit, had a miraculous gift of wisdom. You remember when he became king of Israel he was really young.  God came to him in a dream and ask him what he wanted and was so pleased with his request for wisdom to rule well that God threw in extras.

Solomon, a man like you and I, conducts an experiment like you and I - but with special tools beyond our reach.  It would be real efficient if we would accept his results and save ourselves the time and trouble. 

He starts to search for what it is in this world that is worth putting your whole life in to.  He tries a bunch of things we have tried most of - but with a special gift of wisdom guiding him. 

He sees how earth's wells don't satisfy - we crave more.  We might think they do for a while, then we get undeceived and realize they don't.  We might think a marble ...   Anyway, he sees emptiness everywhere he turns and begins to be discouraged in his pursuit - to despair. 

Then he starts to see some flashes of light - he starts to bring God into the picture and starts to find some answers.  The answers aren't like they seem on the surface such as: "it is better to be in the house of mourning than the house of feasting". 

He takes this to a poetic description of what's coming - old age, and at the end says:  "The end of the matter ALL has been heard".  (we can't be this thorough in our experiment).  Then the conclusion which I know you don't buy.  You guys are missing out. 

Anyway, that's a rundown from memory.  I love this book.  I love everything in it.  I love Proverbs and everything in it.  I got the wife of Proverbs 31.  There's a evidence of God:  "house and wealth are inherited from fathers, but a prudent wife is from the Lord". 

I don't see how and I don't believe you can be happy without God in your heart, thoughts, and mind.  This is one of the principles brought out in Ecclesiastes.  "There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in his toil.  This also, I saw, is from the hand of God; for apart from Him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?" 

It's not that I think you are lying, but I think you are not observing something - like the fact that the things you enjoy to some degree DO come from God, but it's lost on you.

mephibosheth    

"I have seen the business that God has given to the sons of men to be busy with.  He has made everything beautiful in its time; also He has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end."

1.You didn't make it up - that much is true. Other people throughout history did that for you. You just read it, got some good feelings out of it and called those feelings "Jesus/the Holy Spirit living in you". I have no problem with that - the good feelings hopefully trigger good actions.

2. You are correct - the Scriptures say your righteousness is as filthy rags before God - even after you accept him. If living by the book that is supposedly his Word isn't enough for him, what's the point?

3. Why do you need an eternal meaning in your life? Can't find any meaning in what you have?

Doctrines ?  Did I frame my comments within the context of specific doctrines ?  I have no idea where this irrelevant response came from.

At any rate, please provide an example of what you consider "poisonous" doctrine.

Lastly what is this "truth" that you have contrasted against the so-called poisonous doctrines and why is it any different ?

Oh, my current avatar is Robert DeNiro from the movie Taxi Driver.  The "....DeathWish"  of my screen name is purely auto-biographical and is not aimed at you or anyone.

Incidentally, at the age of 16 I was instructed by my Methodist minister regarding emotional experiences using the same "mountain tops and valleys" metaphor.  As a former Christian who struggled against extremely powerful negative emotions ( and even went to Christian counselors and Christian psychologists ) I found that answer to be poetic but patently superficial.

Essentially my out of control despair was just another burden that I shouldered alone ......with no help from Jesus.  Actually, why would he even bother to help ?  After all, as long as my salvation was not dependent upon my feelings, then what did it matter that I continually lived in emotional agony ?

I think I'm beginning to understand what you mean by true doctrine meph;  why should I pray to God about my personal hell on Earth just as long as in the end I avoid the real Hell ?

(ps, as a Christian I never could understand why Jesus' compassion usually felt not like a gentle, comforting hand, but instead like a cold, hard slap to the face. )

Prozak,

As I said right after becoming a Christian in '63 I was hit with bipolar and next hit with all the clunky health care approaches, mis-diagnosis, off base counseling, well meaning other Christian blunders, and so on.  I just kept reading and trying to understand my Bible.  It was the wilderness.

Eventually I crossed-over into full assurance and learned how in Christ to KO the guy that stole my fries and guard my heart, etc.  You probably don't want to hear all of that.

But it was a multi-layer thing.  I had the bipolar, still do but it's not a problem.  I had a unresolved guilt/conscience issue to open up and deal with.  I had my new life in Christ and living faith and the Holy Spirit for a trainer.  I got spiritually beat up a lot. 

One problem I had was attributing one thing to another.  When I was depressed I could attribute it to whatever, but the fact was: the wave still went up and down no matter what I attributed it to.  It was a separate problem.

I saw others who had the bipolar try to treat it by adding another problem layer - drugs, moral, alcohol.  The extra layer I had was the spiritual and it eventually won out.  I don't deny the bipolar was involved in bringing me to the Lord.

Finally it became clear which was which and what was what. 

I take an extremely low dose of lithium now, (as does Dr Kay Redfield Jameson, AN UNQUIET MIND ) and have for about 30 years, no blood tests, just from a family doctor.  I have a conviction that not NEAR as much of that stuff is needed as the "experts" think.  I have a mistrust of the health care bunch, as I had to figure it out myself it seems.  I still feel slight highs and lows, but I've heard that's normal?

But here's the way it goes now.  Now I would describe the depression as a "low energy wave" or a weight pushing down on me.  I just push back.  I view it as a work out, curls, bench press, whatever.  It's a good exercise program, and I'm still happy under there (the undertow) but feel like crap up on top (the white caps). 

I have learned to view feelings as an unreliable and untrustworthy friend.  I notice them and live with them but don't aim to invest much in them.  Feelings are not what I am calling happiness at all. 

I was once tangled up in this mess but have been enabled by God to sort it out and break free from it for several years now.  It's hell.  The bipolar takes experience to master, there's paranoia when the mood is falling, there's the seductive mania that needs to be exposed, there's a need for some kind of RX, but it's not "tune up in a can".  It brings you to know your spiritual need for God and Christ.

mephibosheth

He who sings songs to a heavy heart is like one who takes off a garment on a cold day and like vinegar on a wound.