2014 Warmest Year on Record? Wwweeeellll...

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Burnedout wrote:butterbattle

Burnedout wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Wow...okay. You didn't really process a single word I wrote, did you? You post yet another link without a single productive comment as if you've made some irrefutable argument. 

 

 

The problem with the whole field is that it has lost credibility.  The figures are tainted by falsifying data.  People complain about the Koch Brothers on the right, well, you have people like Tom Steyer on the left who poised to make BIG $$$ by finacially backing it.  I don't buy the figures presented by the people in the science.  That simple. 

Your links and arguments all come from disreputable and dishonest sources. The science hasn't lost any credibility, and in attempting to assert otherwise without any evidence, you in fact lose credibility yourself.

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EXC wrote:Is human caused

EXC wrote:
Is human caused global warming a potenial disaster for the earth and humankind?

Strictly speaking, no.

EXC wrote:
Is the earth large or small?

Everything is relative.

EXC wrote:
is the earth's climate  fragile or stable?

Neither.

EXC wrote:
Is the earth overpopulated or underpopulated?

Neither.

EXC wrote:
Is the number of potential workers and donors for projects like a lunar space elevator and solar sunshield large or small?

Everything is relative.

EXC wrote:
Is there any hope humanity could build something in a couple decades to reduce  global warming?

It would be pretty easy mechanically. But impossible politically. Which is probably a good thing.

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 Sounds to me as if you are

Vastet...sounds like you are making an excuse for  bad science and a peer review process that has  become more of an incestuous club than serious inquiry. 

 

To anyone reading...sorry about these multiple posts.  I hit "Post comment" and the post went wacky.  Sorry for the confusion if any.  


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 Sounds to me as if you are

Multiple post...sorry.


Burnedout
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 Sounds to me as if you are

Multiple post....sorry.


Burnedout
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 Sounds to me as if you are

Multiple post...sorry.


Burnedout
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 Sounds to me as if you are

Multiple post...sorry


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Burnedout wrote:Multiple

Burnedout wrote:

Multiple post...sorry

I have had the same problem. The key is when you click POST COMMENT don't click it again even if you think it will help. It won't. Let the connection time out.


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Burnedout wrote:

Multiple post...sorry

I have had the same problem. The key is when you click POST COMMENT don't click it again even if you think it will help. It won't. Let the connection time out.

 

Thank you.


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EXC wrote:Is there any hope

EXC wrote:

Is there any hope humanity could build something in a couple decades to reduce  global warming?

 

 

   Yes there is.  A massive build up of nuclear arsenals around the world follwed by an all out war.   The loss of  human life due to the massive killing power of these weapons would obviously curtail further man made sources of green houses gases and the subsequent nuclear winter would offset any lingering global warming.  Problem solved.

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Vastet wrote:EXC wrote:Is

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is human caused global warming a potenial disaster for the earth and humankind?
Strictly speaking, no.

Completely contradicts your previous post about surviving on a mountain.

Vastet wrote:

EXC wrote:
Is the earth large or small?
Everything is relative.
EXC wrote:
is the earth's climate  fragile or stable?
Neither.
EXC wrote:
Is the earth overpopulated or underpopulated?
Neither.

Let me guess, just like the global warming alarmists, it's just  enough of a crisis that the only answer is my taxes go up, the cost of everything needs to go up my liberty needs to go down. But not enough of crisis to consider something like mandatory birth control.

 

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is the number of potential workers and donors for projects like a lunar space elevator and solar sunshield large or small?
Everything is relative..

Is there enough rich people hoarding there wealth that the poverty could be greatly reduced by taking it away? Your answer changes to yes. It's only relative when it suits you.

Vastet wrote:

But impossible politically.

This is really strange coming from someone that has so much faith in government that you put all your faith in having politicians provide your health care, security, economic safety net,, ...

The lunar space elevator is getting crowdfunded without the government. If that is sucessful , a solor sunshield could also be crowdfunded. The problem is keeping people like you from confiscating all the donor's wealth(or killing them) and forcing all the poltential workers into being slaves of the welfare state.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is human caused global warming a potenial disaster for the earth and humankind?
Strictly speaking, no.

Completely contradicts your previous post about surviving on a mountain.

Vastet wrote:

EXC wrote:
Is the earth large or small?
Everything is relative.
EXC wrote:
is the earth's climate  fragile or stable?
Neither.
EXC wrote:
Is the earth overpopulated or underpopulated?
Neither.

Let me guess, just like the global warming alarmists, it's just  enough of a crisis that the only answer is my taxes go up, the cost of everything needs to go up my liberty needs to go down. But not enough of crisis to consider something like mandatory birth control.

 

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is the number of potential workers and donors for projects like a lunar space elevator and solar sunshield large or small?
Everything is relative..

Is there enough rich people hoarding there wealth that the poverty could be greatly reduced by taking it away? Your answer changes to yes. It's only relative when it suits you.

Vastet wrote:

But impossible politically.

This is really strange coming from someone that has so much faith in government that you put all your faith in having politicians provide your health care, security, economic safety net,, ...

The lunar space elevator is getting crowdfunded without the government. If that is sucessful , a solor sunshield could also be crowdfunded. The problem is keeping people like you from confiscating all the donor's wealth(or killing them) and forcing all the poltential workers into being slaves of the welfare state.

 

There is a huge difference between actually crowdfunding something and attempting to crowdfund something. I doubt that crowd funding a space elevator is going to work. Companies that have attempted to raise investment for such projects have so far failed due to the extremely high risk of something so massive and completely untested. Odds are the first few attempts will be massive wastes of resources.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:There is

Beyond Saving wrote:
There is a huge difference between actually crowdfunding something and attempting to crowdfund something. I doubt that crowd funding a space elevator is going to work. Companies that have attempted to raise investment for such projects have so far failed due to the extremely high risk of something so massive and completely untested. Odds are the first few attempts will be massive wastes of resources.

That is why the funding has to be done in stages. Unfurling a ribbon from a heliium balloon in the upper atmosphere down to the ground would go a long way toward proving the basic principles.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Burnedout

Burnedout wrote:

Vastet...sounds like you are making an excuse for  bad science and a peer review process that has  become more of an incestuous club than serious inquiry. 

 

To anyone reading...sorry about these multiple posts.  I hit "Post comment" and the post went wacky.  Sorry for the confusion if any.  

Sounds like you are making an excuse for flyby posts containing links to false and/or misleading data compiled by biased sources who aren't qualified to examine the evidence in the first place.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is human caused global warming a potenial disaster for the earth and humankind?
Strictly speaking, no.

Completely contradicts your previous post about surviving on a mountain.

I never made a post about surviving on a mountain. Get off the cocaine.

EXC wrote:
Vastet wrote:

EXC wrote:
Is the earth large or small?
Everything is relative.
EXC wrote:
is the earth's climate  fragile or stable?
Neither.
EXC wrote:
Is the earth overpopulated or underpopulated?
Neither.

Let me guess, just like the global warming alarmists, it's just  enough of a crisis that the only answer is my taxes go up, the cost of everything needs to go up my liberty needs to go down. But not enough of crisis to consider something like mandatory birth control.

Your taxes going up has very little to do with climate change. Your military expenditures would be the big reason. And, of course, the fact that the people running your economy have the dumb idea that infinite interest is a good thing doesn't help matters.

 

EXC wrote:
Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is the number of potential workers and donors for projects like a lunar space elevator and solar sunshield large or small?
Everything is relative..

Is there enough rich people hoarding there wealth that the poverty could be greatly reduced by taking it away? Your answer changes to yes. It's only relative when it suits you.

Only in your tiny little mind. The cost benefit of raising the level of poverty greatly exceedes the cost benefit of making some kind of sun shield for the entire earth.

EXC wrote:
Vastet wrote:

But impossible politically.

This is really strange coming from someone that has so much faith in government that you put all your faith in having politicians provide your health care, security, economic safety net,, ...

Only to someone who thinks I have absolute faith in government operating alone and without oversight. You just keep making up strawmen because it's the only way to stay in the argument. Unfortunately for you, it just means you lose that many more arguments.  

EXC wrote:
The lunar space elevator is getting crowdfunded without the government.

And when some government doesn't get what they want, and they blow it up, I bet you think another crowd funding project will be even more successful. lmfao.

EXC wrote:
 If that is sucessful , a solor sunshield could also be crowdfunded.

And when some government or organisation attempts to use it as a weapon or just gets annoyed at not having the sunshine on the beaches the way they used to, and it gets blown up, I bet you think another crowd funding project will be even more successful. Lmfao.

EXC wrote:
 The problem is keeping people like you from confiscating all the donor's wealth(or killing them) and forcing all the poltential workers into being slaves of the welfare state.

 

No the problem is people like you who don't have the slightest idea what the problems really are, nor the slightest idea how to fix the actual problems.

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 Vastet wrote:EXC wrote:Is

 

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is human caused global warming a potenial disaster for the earth and humankind?

Strictly speaking, no.

Completely contradicts your previous post about surviving on a mountain.

Vastet wrote:
I never made a post about surviving on a mountain. Get off the cocaine.

 

But then there is:

Vastet wrote:
Considering that's where I grew up, it wouldn't be a bad thing. Until it also got too hot. It's not nearly as cold there as it was when I lived there. I'm more thinking the Rockies. Effects are weaker at that elevation. And the water is nice and clean. I'll be dead before there's year round above 0 temperatures through all of Canada. Especially if climate change wipes out a third of the people contributing to it. > >

 

So you were a closet global warming denier and now you're out of the closet?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote: Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:

 

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
Is human caused global warming a potenial disaster for the earth and humankind?

Strictly speaking, no.

Completely contradicts your previous post about surviving on a mountain.

Vastet wrote:
I never made a post about surviving on a mountain. Get off the cocaine.

 

But then there is:

Vastet wrote:
Considering that's where I grew up, it wouldn't be a bad thing. Until it also got too hot. It's not nearly as cold there as it was when I lived there. I'm more thinking the Rockies. Effects are weaker at that elevation. And the water is nice and clean. I'll be dead before there's year round above 0 temperatures through all of Canada. Especially if climate change wipes out a third of the people contributing to it. > >

 

So you were a closet global warming denier and now you're out of the closet?

So you've dug up a post I wrote years ago in a completely different topic that had very little, if any, relation to this discussion at all and then attempted to put that post in the context of the current discussion even though it doesn't at all fit in the current discussion and STILL doesn't conform to your allegation that I wrote a post about surviving on a mountain.

I can't honestly say with absolute certainty that your post is literally the dumbest thing anyone has ever done or said throughout all time and space, but it is certainly in the top ten.

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Vastet wrote:So you've dug

Vastet wrote:

So you've dug up a post I wrote years ago in a completely different topic that had very little, if any, relation to this discussion at all and then attempted to put that post in the context of the current discussion even though it doesn't at all fit in the current discussion and STILL doesn't conform to your allegation that I wrote a post about surviving on a mountain.

For the record, the title of the "completely different topic" was 'Global warming denial is irrational'.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:So

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:

So you've dug up a post I wrote years ago in a completely different topic that had very little, if any, relation to this discussion at all and then attempted to put that post in the context of the current discussion even though it doesn't at all fit in the current discussion and STILL doesn't conform to your allegation that I wrote a post about surviving on a mountain.

For the record, the title of the "completely different topic" was 'Global warming denial is irrational'.

For the record, my post was not on topic. Try again.

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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:

Burnedout wrote:

Vastet...sounds like you are making an excuse for  bad science and a peer review process that has  become more of an incestuous club than serious inquiry. 

 

To anyone reading...sorry about these multiple posts.  I hit "Post comment" and the post went wacky.  Sorry for the confusion if any.  

Sounds like you are making an excuse for flyby posts containing links to false and/or misleading data compiled by biased sources who aren't qualified to examine the evidence in the first place.

 

I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.  One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are.  Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.  


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Why that sounds like

Why that sounds like something I said.

Yes, we should all apply skepticism to all claims, whether they be from Al Gore or the Pope. Furthermore, we should take extra care to analyze claims and sources that we already agree with. Everyone thinks they are open-minded, but few people actually are. 

Wouldn't you agree, Burnedout?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet wrote: For the

Vastet wrote:
For the record, my post was not on topic. Try again.

Bull shit! you also had this one.

Vastet wrote:

I've stopped arguing it with deniers because there's nothing left to argue. I'm just happy I live in a country where it can't affect me overmuch. Gets too hot I'll just move North.

Which completely contradicts your statement here.

So to you, global warming is only a serious threat when it help promote your Marxist(aka give me free stuff) agenda. When the question is should a space structures be built to prevent global warming, suddenly it is not a big threat.

Also, your Robin Hood wealth redistribution plan if it actually worked would really increase carbon in the atmosphere. When poor people become middle class, they consume a lot more and drive a lot more.

You put so much god damn faith in government to provide your security and argue we should be happy to pay high taxes for their police and fire services. So, why the hell can't government fix this problem?

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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stop with the fucking

stop with the fucking "marxist" shit. you're just like brian: you don't know jack shit about marxism yet run your mouth about it. i basically forced you to admit as much several years ago, then linked you to volume 1 of capital via the marxist internet archive to at least try to get you to educate yourself on what you keep denigrating. instead, you started trying to pick marx apart in the first couple sentences. when i explained to you why you completely misunderstood those sentences because you were ignorant of the context (not surprising, considering those couple sentences were the first bit of marx you'd ever actually read), i recall you turned tail and never responded. you disagree with leftist politics in general? fine. but it only shows your ignorance when you talk shit about a school of thought you have zero knowledge of.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Burnedout wrote:I don't have

Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.

Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.

You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.
Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.
You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

 

Two words....PROVE IT!


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EXC wrote:Bull shit! you

EXC wrote:
Bull shit! you also had this one.

Bullshit yourself.

EXC wrote:
Which completely contradicts your statement here.

Repeating a lie ad absurdum does not change the fact it is a lie. It just proves you're dumb.

EXC wrote:
So to you, global warming is only a serious threat when it help promote your Marxist(aka give me free stuff) agenda.

It's funny how I could point to more than a thousand posts where you call me a marxist in one form or another and it proves nothing more than your absolute stupidity. For the thousandth time, at least, I've never even read Marx.
And 'global warming', as you put it, is not a serious threat. But it does exist, and ignoring it is just plain idiotic.

EXC wrote:
When the question is should a space structures be built to prevent global warming, suddenly it is not a big threat.

You have yet to forward a practical plan to do that which I have not shot down with fact. Come back when that changes.

EXC wrote:
Also, your Robin Hood wealth redistribution plan if it actually worked would really increase carbon in the atmosphere. When poor people become middle class, they consume a lot more and drive a lot more.

With cars switching over to electric, I don't see the problem.
If the middle class grows and consumes more, then the upper class benefits as well. Everyone does better. It's funny that you are unable to understand basic logic and basic math.

EXC wrote:
You put so much god damn faith in government to provide your security and argue we should be happy to pay high taxes for their police and fire services. So, why the hell can't government fix this problem?

Stop using strawmen already. I've told you a thousand times I don't have faith in government. It has been scientifically proven to function better than no government, and that's reason enough to prefer having a government.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Burnedout wrote:Vastet

Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.
Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.
You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

 

Two words....PROVE IT!

It's been proven. Look it up.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Heh, if someone doesn't even

Heh, if someone doesn't even have the intellectual patience/honesty to acknowledge my posts, then they're probably not going to look it up themselves.

Oh well.

Yep, time is valuable.

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.
Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.
You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

 

Two words....PROVE IT!

It's been proven. Look it up.

 

You made an assertion...the burden of proof is on you.  


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Burnedout wrote:Vastet

Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.
Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.
You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

 

Two words....PROVE IT!

It's been proven. Look it up.

 

You made an assertion...the burden of proof is on you.  

No, you made the assertion.

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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.
Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.
You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

 

Two words....PROVE IT!

It's been proven. Look it up.

 

You made an assertion...the burden of proof is on you.  

No, you made the assertion.

 

You assert that GW is a fact...the proof is on you.

 


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Burnedout wrote:Vastet

Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.
Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.
You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

 

Two words....PROVE IT!

It's been proven. Look it up.

 

You made an assertion...the burden of proof is on you.  

No, you made the assertion.

 

You assert that GW is a fact...the proof is on you.

 

Climate change is as much a scientific fact as gravity and evolution. You claim all the proof is a lie. Burden is on you.

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Vastet wrote:Climate change

Vastet wrote:
Climate change is as much a scientific fact as gravity and evolution. You claim all the proof is a lie. Burden is on you.

Lol. The scientific consensus is a conspiracy. I don't know anything about science, but I can smell a conspiracy from a mile away. If anyone posts anything in support of global warming, it must be part of the conspiracy, so I don't even read it. I am not smart enough to explain my own position, but I am smart enough to post links to shitty obscure blogs. QED.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Lol.

Lol.

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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:
I don't have to be perfectly versed in a particular area of science, but it is not rocket science to figure out what is FRAUD based on money.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand human based climate change is a simple fact.
Burnedout wrote:
One of the oldest scams in the book and done by people of ALL walks of life and the people who fall for the snake oil are not as smart as they THINK they are. Sounds to me as if you are follwing a religion. Why don't you apply the same level of skepticism to the claims of sciencs as you do religion, it might be enlightening.
You are describing yourself rather well. You've bought into the scam of denying reality in order to make more money in the short term for big industry at the expense of long term sustainability. I suspect you'd throw away all the rules and let industry pump pollutants unfiltered into the atmosphere en mass and drop safety regulations just so they could make more cash.

 

Two words....PROVE IT!

It's been proven. Look it up.

 

You made an assertion...the burden of proof is on you.  

No, you made the assertion.

 

You assert that GW is a fact...the proof is on you.

 

Climate change is as much a scientific fact as gravity and evolution. You claim all the proof is a lie. Burden is on you.

 

Oh.....Do you deny there is fraud in academia and research?


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Irrelevant question. Stay on

Irrelevant question. Stay on topic.

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Obviously not. There will

Obviously not. There will always be fraud of some extent in any scientific discipline. There are a number of well known cases of fraud associated with evolution as well, but that doesn't make the overall evidence any less overwhelming; this is a hasty generalization at best. (not to mention that I haven't actually seen you post even one example of fraud from a primary source which I honestly thought was legitimate yet. Clearly, you think otherwise, but since you're not going to actually address my responses, that conversation isn't getting anywhere fast).

Really, a process of cherry picking individual fossils and successfully asserting that each of them is a scam would take practically forever at this point. More realistically, each of the categories of evidence for evolution would have to be put into doubt in principle to jeopardize its empirical foundations. The same goes for global warming. True, human caused global warming isn't as old or as established as evolution is, but the scientific consensus has, nevertheless, become overwhelming. So, cherry picking individual airports, military bases, etc. and asserting that either all or even most of the people conducting METAR weather observations, releasing rawinsondes, measuring ice thickness, water temperature, gathering climatological data etc. there or all the people disseminating the data are part of the global conspiracy to fool the masses is not only absurd, it is a really futile endeavor. 

And the icing on the cake is...and I'm saying this again since you didn't read it last time....it was and still is part of my job to collect meteorological data. So, in some way, however small, I am a part of your conspiracy. But, I swear to god (lol) I did not intentionally fudge my numbers to support global warming.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/globalwarming/11395516/The-fiddling-with-temperature-data-is-the-biggest-science-scandal-ever.html  Scientists have been fudging data warmer since 1950’s.  

 

http://www.sott.net/article/276813-Peer-reviewed-paper-says-its-OK-to-manipulate-data-exaggerate-climate-claims  Paper telling Global warming scientists to manipulate data.

 

 http://www.naturalnews.com/045808_global_warming_fraud_data_manipulation_NOAA.html#%23ixzz36EOG14pU   NOAA caught in a lie about warmest year.  They were forced to change their website.  

 

There is WAY more where these came from.  It is not JUST climate sciences that are guilty of this, but it is on a rather large scale in other science fields.  Here is just a tiny few examples.  

http://time.com/81388/is-the-peer-review-process-for-scientific-papers-broken/ Peer Review is broken.

 

 http://bigstory.ap.org/article/7afd44f9a991472b8395d5d73e8d3326/japan-scientist-quits-cell-research-discredited Japanese Scientist discredited in Stem Cell Research by using cooked up results.  She at least had the decency to resign.  

 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2014/11/21/former-vanderbilt-scientist-faked-research/19355363/ Vanderbilt committed fraud in biomedical research on a massive scale.  

I don't care what other people decide, but I am not convinced.  If this were just a smattering of a few, I might blow it off, but it isn't.  I don't JUST distrust government, in distrust ALL...yes ALL institutions.  You can call it conspiracy, I don't give two shits.  When people say that the "CONSENSUS" is...well..there is a fallacy called appeal to consensus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum 

There is also what is known as  appeal to authority.  I see plenty of that by the bandwagon of people who swear GW is true or man made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

I have tried to make the last two links work.  I give up.  Just copy and past them into a browser.  FUCK IT! 


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 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

DOUBLE FUCKING POST...this is IRRITATING. 

 


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butterbattle wrote:....it

butterbattle wrote:

....it was and still is part of my job to collect meteorological data. So, in some way, however small, I am a part of your conspiracy. But, I swear to god (lol) I did not intentionally fudge my numbers to support global warming.

Uh huh, see you are a government agent being bribed MILLIONS (of pennies) to collect meteorological data. No doubt you BELIEVE that you aren't fudging the numbers, but in reality, you have been BRAINWASHED to bump the numbers up and you don't remember it. Remember all those SHOTS they gave you and told you were VACCINES? They were actually nano-robots that are in your neural pathways and controlling what you remember and don't remember. Now excuse me, I have to go polish my hat. (the aliens said if it wasn't shiny enough they would skip the lube next time

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Uh huh,

Beyond Saving wrote:

Uh huh, see you are a government agent being bribed MILLIONS (of pennies) to collect meteorological data.

Hmm, I do save a lot of money every month since my expenses are so low. Perhaps that is my bribe. 

Beyond Saving wrote:
Remember all those SHOTS they gave you and told you were VACCINES? 

Pfff, vaccines are a conspiracy anyways. They just make kids autistic and turn people into liberals. Here, I can prove it.

List of scams.

Evidence 

Evidence

Evidence

QED

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Burnedout

Burnedout wrote:

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/globalwarming/11395516/The-fiddling-with-temperature-data-is-the-biggest-science-scandal-ever.html  Scientists have been fudging data warmer since 1950’s.  

 

http://www.sott.net/article/276813-Peer-reviewed-paper-says-its-OK-to-manipulate-data-exaggerate-climate-claims  Paper telling Global warming scientists to manipulate data.

 

 http://www.naturalnews.com/045808_global_warming_fraud_data_manipulation_NOAA.html#%23ixzz36EOG14pU   NOAA caught in a lie about warmest year.  They were forced to change their website.  

 

There is WAY more where these came from.  It is not JUST climate sciences that are guilty of this, but it is on a rather large scale in other science fields.  Here is just a tiny few examples.  

http://time.com/81388/is-the-peer-review-process-for-scientific-papers-broken/ Peer Review is broken.

 

 http://bigstory.ap.org/article/7afd44f9a991472b8395d5d73e8d3326/japan-scientist-quits-cell-research-discredited Japanese Scientist discredited in Stem Cell Research by using cooked up results.  She at least had the decency to resign.  

 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2014/11/21/former-vanderbilt-scientist-faked-research/19355363/ Vanderbilt committed fraud in biomedical research on a massive scale.  

I don't care what other people decide, but I am not convinced.  If this were just a smattering of a few, I might blow it off, but it isn't.  I don't JUST distrust government, in distrust ALL...yes ALL institutions.  You can call it conspiracy, I don't give two shits.  When people say that the "CONSENSUS" is...well..there is a fallacy called appeal to consensus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum 

There is also what is known as  appeal to authority.  I see plenty of that by the bandwagon of people who swear GW is true or man made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

I have tried to make the last two links work.  I give up.  Just copy and past them into a browser.  FUCK IT! 

lol he thinks news articles and opinion columns can take the place of peer reviewed scientific journals

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 Since when was peer review

 Since when was peer review perfect?  

 

FYI....You might want to take a look at this recored symposium of 5 editors of 5...YES FIVE scientific journals who are discussing the problem of ...OH YES....'RESEARCHER FRAUD'.  In fact, the whole purpose of the symposium was to discuss RESEARCHER FRAUD.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3utUERQx2sc  

http://time.com/81388/is-the-peer-review-process-for-scientific-papers-broken/ Peer Review is broken.

 

 Oh and while you're at it there Vastet, might want to read this:

 

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/37798/title/Fake-Paper-Exposes-Failed-Peer-Review/

I know it is tough to look at your religion from a truly skeptical position.  But until you can come with some REAL evidence, not questionable sources, you've failed to prove shit.  


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Alright, I fixed the two

Alright, I fixed the two bottom wikipedia links for you.

Anyways, I've already repeatedly explained the futility of trying to discredit the entire field by digging up potential scams, and I've also repeatedly explained the pointlessness of posting web links, especially from unreliable sources, and especially when you've neither analyzed the sources in question (which you clearly haven't) nor understand the topic being discussed (which you clearly don't). And, your response is to.....post more links to various sources, many unreliable, about scams on a topic you don't understand? Not to mention, you already posted the first two links on the previous page, and yes, I've already looked at both of them. You also seem to have just posted the same Time article twice, and yes, I've already skimmed over it, and no, that writer would not support your position, no matter how much you want her to. The same with the speakers in that youtube video. Overall, I dare say I've already looked at most of your links in far greater detail than you have. I even already posted an extended response to that second link, which you STILL have not acknowledged, and, here, you're posting it AGAIN even though I already responded to it.

Well, at least, you're sort of responding to me now, even if you still ignored most (i.e. pretty much all) of what I said. So, I'll continue responding too. But, I doubt I'm going to get through to you at this point, so for motivation, I'll think of all the other people, especially lurkers, who might be reading this thread. Well, that and I don't have work tomorrow, lol. 

And an article about NOAA, huh? What do you know about NOAA? We use tools and products from NOAA every day to develop our forecasts. I even had NOAA on my favorites list on my web browser. Some of my co-workers will probably work for NOAA after the Navy. You didn't even know what those letters stood for until you found that stupid article after googling the topic. So, one thing I would like is for you to stop making blanket references to "scientists," "climate people," "NOAA," etc. essentially everyone that works in the community, while treating them like they're well organized illuminati cults operating in shadow worlds or something. Are you having a hard time conceiving of people who work in science related professions as being real individual humans? Perhaps not, but the way you refer to them is quite strange. Either way, I can confirm that they are real people. You know how? Because you're talking to one right now.  

Burnedout wrote:
 

 http://bigstory.ap.org/article/7afd44f9a991472b8395d5d73e8d3326/japan-scientist-quits-cell-research-discredited Japanese Scientist discredited in Stem Cell Research by using cooked up results.  She at least had the decency to resign.  

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2014/11/21/former-vanderbilt-scientist-faked-research/19355363/ Vanderbilt committed fraud in biomedical research on a massive scale.  

Burnedout wrote:
Since when was peer review perfect?

Sigh...when did anyone here say that peer review was perfect? Didn't we already cover both of these subjects? You need to break away from this all or nothing mindset.

At least those two, at a glance, appear like legitimate scams being exposed. But, what does it prove? You think you're the only person that knows how to look up stuff on the Internet? You can't even figure out how to post links on the rich text editor. If I wanted to, I could post 50 different links to Creationist websites exposing scams in evoution right now. Similarly, I could also post 50 different links arguing in support of global warming. Or, I could post 50 links about anti-global warming people being dishonest. I'm not going to do any of that. You know why? Well, for one, it's pointless because I don't think you're going to read them. However, the main reason is because it's intellectually lazy and disengenuous for me to just post anything that supports my position which I haven't already read and understood. But, you still don't get it, do you? What can I write to make you understand this?

Burnedout wrote:
I don't JUST distrust government, in distrust ALL...yes ALL institutions.

I already addressed this as well. Too bad you didn't read it. I'll go over it again. Please pay attention.

I beg to differ. Leaving my previous comment about individual people aside for the moment, I don't think you distrust ALL institutions. In fact, I can point out a couple of institutions that you trust right now. Ready?

Here is one institution that you trust:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

Here is another one:

http://www.sott.net/

And another:

http://www.naturalnews.com/

You see what I'm getting at? If not, you are free to ask me questions and begin having an open-minded discussion whenever you feel like. Hopefully, other readers will understand. 

Burnedout wrote:
You can call it conspiracy, I don't give two shits.  When people say that the "CONSENSUS" is...well..there is a fallacy called appeal to consensus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum 

There is also what is known as  appeal to authority.  I see plenty of that by the bandwagon of people who swear GW is true or man made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Good. I agree. I don't think you should become a proponent of global warming because everyone else is. You should think for yourself and determine what is supported by evidence and reason. I'm sure you remember this since I already.....oh wait, you don't because you ignored me and never read what I wrote. 

Hmm, in your defense, I have referred to the scientific consensus a couple of times now. However, I never meant to imply that you should just believe whatever the majority believes. If it seems that way, I apologize. Rather, note that this is experiential and based on my appreciation of the scientific method as well as the measured understanding that the scientific process will win out, even if some individual scientists are fallible human beings. Yet, with that statement, I may already be overly tentative in your favor. I suppose that we have a drastically different perception of the average scientist, to the extent that if say "most scientists" to you, I might as well say "most Catholic priests."   

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet wrote: It's funny

Vastet wrote:
It's funny how I could point to more than a thousand posts where you call me a marxist in one form or another and it proves nothing more than your absolute stupidity. For the thousandth time, at least, I've never even read Marx. And 'global warming', as you put it, is not a serious threat. But it does exist, and ignoring it is just plain idiotic.

The basic maxim of your ideaolgy is 'From each according to what they have, to each according to what they need'. You want to take from those that you think have too much and give to those you don't think have enough. Marxist ideaology, even if  you haven't read Marx you are influenced by those who are of this belief system.

There are pleanty of Christians that have not read or know next to nothing about what is in the bible, but everyone still calls them Christians because of the people that influence them. You don't have to be a bible scholar to be called a Christian. You don't have to read Marx to be a Marxist.

The basic goal of the leftist Global Warming alarmist is to use this as an excuse to make everyone equal by making them consume nearly the same which is almost nothing. Sorry but I won't be part this poverty program for myself. You'll have to pry my cold dead body out of my Jeep SUV before I'll drive a Prius.

 

Vastet wrote:
With cars switching over to electric, I don't see the problem.

Total lack of understanding of basic economics.

We'd already have electric cars if they worked as well and were as cheap as gas cars. To force people to drive electric means there will be a price to pay. Guess who pays the price?

Vastet wrote:

If the middle class grows and consumes more, then the upper class benefits as well. Everyone does better. It's funny that you are unable to understand basic logic and basic math.

Not if the consumption is of natural resourses, not if the consumption causes environmental pollution. Then we all pay a price.

The reason why the poor can't get into the middle class is because we've run out of natural resourses. Where is the land to build affordable houses? where are the forrests to grow the lumber for these houses? Where is the irrigation water to grow more food?

Does Candada want to chop down their forrests and send us their water so the USA poor can consume more?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:We'd already have

EXC wrote:
We'd already have electric cars if they worked as well and were as cheap as gas cars. To force people to drive electric means there will be a price to pay. Guess who pays the price?

Hmm, for this example, what about the financial cost and time required by the market to switch over to a different type of vehicle? For example, even if electric cars are "better," there are already gas stations everywhere, but few places to conveniently power your electric car on a long drive. There are other factors. Like, the assembly lines for gasoline cars have been around a very long time. So, with the same resource costs, it would still cost a company more to build an electric car since they wouldn't be as efficient. And, overall, it just takes time for people to start using something new. I think I read somewhere that consumers will often buy the same brand over and over even when there is a better product.

I have seen a few Teslas around in the last couple of years. Of course, they are still waayy more expensive than, say, a Toyota. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Burnedout wrote: Since when

Burnedout wrote:

 Since when was peer review perfect?  

 

FYI....You might want to take a look at this recored symposium of 5 editors of 5...YES FIVE scientific journals who are discussing the problem of ...OH YES....'RESEARCHER FRAUD'.  In fact, the whole purpose of the symposium was to discuss RESEARCHER FRAUD.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3utUERQx2sc  

http://time.com/81388/is-the-peer-review-process-for-scientific-papers-broken/ Peer Review is broken.

 

 Oh and while you're at it there Vastet, might want to read this:

 

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/37798/title/Fake-Paper-Exposes-Failed-Peer-Review/

I know it is tough to look at your religion from a truly skeptical position.  But until you can come with some REAL evidence, not questionable sources, you've failed to prove shit.  

 

Who said peer review was perfect? There's a lot of issues with peer review right now. But those issues pale in comparison to the issues in news media. Peer review is infinitely more valuable than a news article.

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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote: It's

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
It's funny how I could point to more than a thousand posts where you call me a marxist in one form or another and it proves nothing more than your absolute stupidity. For the thousandth time, at least, I've never even read Marx. And 'global warming', as you put it, is not a serious threat. But it does exist, and ignoring it is just plain idiotic.

The basic maxim of your ideaolgy is 'From each according to what they have, to each according to what they need'.

Blatant lie.

EXC wrote:
You want to take from those that you think have too much and give to those you don't think have enough.

Blatant lie.

EXC wrote:
Marxist ideaology, even if  you haven't read Marx you are influenced by those who are of this belief system.

Failed conclusion based on failed premise equals absolute failure.

EXC wrote:
There are pleanty of Christians that have not read or know next to nothing about what is in the bible, but everyone still calls them Christians because of the people that influence them. You don't have to be a bible scholar to be called a Christian. You don't have to read Marx to be a Marxist.

Irrelevant.

EXC wrote:
The basic goal of the leftist Global Warming alarmist is to use this as an excuse to make everyone equal by making them consume nearly the same which is almost nothing.

Ridiculous. The alarmist leftist wants the economy to switch over from fossil fuels to renewable resources. Which frankly isn't a bad idea, if a little naive. 

EXC wrote:
Sorry but I won't be part this poverty program for myself. You'll have to pry my cold dead body out of my Jeep SUV before I'll drive a Prius.

I will happily pry your cold dead body out of your jeep. The act will ensure that I know I never have to listen to your lies and misrepresentations again.

 

EXC wrote:
Vastet wrote:
With cars switching over to electric, I don't see the problem.

Total lack of understanding of basic economics.

On your part.

EXC wrote:
We'd already have electric cars if they worked as well and were as cheap as gas cars.

We do, moron. lmfao.

EXC wrote:
 To force people to drive electric means there will be a price to pay. Guess who pays the price?

The same people who pay for gas now. Surprise!

EXC wrote:
Vastet wrote:

If the middle class grows and consumes more, then the upper class benefits as well. Everyone does better. It's funny that you are unable to understand basic logic and basic math.

Not if the consumption is of natural resourses, not if the consumption causes environmental pollution. Then we all pay a price.

Not if evironmental pollution is handled. But of course you're fighting against that. You want to increase environmental pollution.

EXC wrote:
The reason why the poor can't get into the middle class is because we've run out of natural resourses.

Ridiculous. We have not run out of natural resources. 

EXC wrote:
Where is the land to build affordable houses?

Everywhere.

EXC wrote:
where are the forrests to grow the lumber for these houses?

Everywhere.

 

EXC wrote:
Where is the irrigation water to grow more food?

Everywhere.

EXC wrote:
Does Candada want to chop down their forrests and send us their water so the USA poor can consume more?

Why should we? You can't even manage what you have without wasting most of it. You idiots built a agricultural megacomplex in a fucking desert. Literally the dumbest thing you can do. Learn how to manage your resources better and you'll find they last a lot longer.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
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Vastet wrote:EXC wrote:You

Vastet wrote:

EXC wrote:
You want to take from those that you think have too much and give to those you don't think have enough.

Blatant lie.

Again the memory problems.

Vastet wrote:

The goal is the elimination of poverty and the wealth hoarding that causes it. Freedom doesn't mean shit without food or shelter. Freedom doesn't exist when it bears a cost unaffordable to the majority, either.

I guess your fine socialist health care system doesn't have any treatment for your condition.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Again the memory

EXC wrote:
Again the memory problems.

Repeating lies doesn't make them true. It just makes you an idiot.

EXC wrote:
I guess your fine socialist health care system doesn't have any treatment for your condition.

I don't have a condition. But you do. You could get treated for it here, in this so-called socialist paradise.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.