Hummm I've got to wondering

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Hummm I've got to wondering

That all of a sudden there is a kinder gentler Pope, and preaching against materialism. They may have finally gotten ahold of stuff from the Old Seers. Any predatory outfit is very keen on detecting an enemy. They now have an opposite interpretation to deal with which may force them to make changes. There was an idea of hacking it into the Vatican but it was scrubbed because it'll get there eventually anyway. Hmmmm I wonder?????

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Mhmm, many if not most

Mhmm, many if not most people in first world countries that consider themselves Catholic were already more moderate than the stance previously taken by the Vatican. 

Imo, in this day and age, any religion with a centralized body like this needs to make changes to their doctrine periodically to keep up with public opinion. For example, when the LDS church president received a prophecy allowing black pastors. I don't know the details on how this change in the Vatican came about, but I'd bet my left arm it was influenced by negative perceptions about the Vatican that have strengthened in recent years: no longer relevant, child molestors, old greedy men, etc.

If their stance is closer to what you call the "Old Seer," that is probably coincidence, I think.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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if you actually think that

if you actually think that you and your "smurfs" are anywhere on the vatican's radar, much less that they are making policy changes around you, you're as delusional as emperor norton.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Agree

butterbattle wrote:

Mhmm, many if not most people in first world countries that consider themselves Catholic were already more moderate than the stance previously taken by the Vatican. 

Imo, in this day and age, any religion with a centralized body like this needs to make changes to their doctrine periodically to keep up with public opinion. For example, when the LDS church president received a prophecy allowing black pastors. I don't know the details on how this change in the Vatican came about, but I'd bet my left arm it was influenced by negative perceptions about the Vatican that have strengthened in recent years: no longer relevant, child molestors, old greedy men, etc.

If their stance is closer to what you call the "Old Seer," that is probably coincidence, I think.

it seems people world over are dissatified with their governments. That definetly would prompt authorities to make changes--and likewise religiions. But to a Smurf, Government is religion as it depends upon a belief system. The beliefs of governmnets are the same as relgions. That which governs is the same as that which governs and what is considered government has the same goals as what is considered religions. Religions are also in the purposes of governing. Neither can use the rudiments of governing and different then the other--to us they are both the same. We do kinow in time our interpretaion will come in conflict with theirs--there's only 2 possible, and that being from a spiritual vs material viewpoint. Only one can be correct.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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How do you say that

if you not aquainted with our interpretaton. I'm assuming you haven't studied it as yet. It takes time--about 6 months of comparing. If you haven't your critisim is moot and merely assumption.  Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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iwbiek wrote:if you actually

iwbiek wrote:
if you actually think that you and your "smurfs" are anywhere on the vatican's radar, much less that they are making policy changes around you, you're as delusional as emperor norton.

Who is Emperor Norton ? Sorry I could not resist asking that Smiling 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I for one

 I for one do not see any difference in what is going on with the present pope than any other time in history. Look at the changes even within the simple art of say the Ottonian Era all the way up to the Gothic Era. You can see during the Romanesque Era the near frightening images of hellfire and damnation in the tympaniums to the gentler versions in some of the Gothic Era artworks. (It has been a long time since art history classes so I can not name specifics). Same could be said for the perception of Christ on the catacomb walls to the time of the Justinians. And that is just during the historic times. 

Look at the changes in Vatican II and although the so-called "reformations" of it. 

The Church has always been smart enough to adopt to the changing times while still holding on to the present beliefs. This pope is no different. Even back during the harsher times with the popes and anti-popes in Avignon and Rome, things were always changing. 

AT LEAST...That is what the cartoon cat on the motorcycle thinks from his very limited knowledge of history. Could have it all wrong. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Other's thoughts are completely lost on you OP ?

 > Other's thoughts are completely lost on you OP ?

harleysportster wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
if you actually think that you and your "smurfs" are anywhere on the vatican's radar, much less that they are making policy changes around you, you're as delusional as emperor norton.

Who is Emperor Norton ? Sorry I could not resist asking that Smiling 

 To the OP ((slow pitch softball doesnt seem to work with you, that would be under the heading of delusional disorders . .  basically under the sub-heading of  contemptuous derision, and a deeply held contemptuous derision! ''Whiles I stood rapt in the wonder'' ~ MacBeth Act 1 Scene 5 ))
 

    I have many beliefs and values that are very dear to my heart and which I will defend passionately (other places), but none of them are above scrutiny.  However wide ranging, perhaps there is a reason 'the Word' is not  usually interpreted like ''proper Christianity'' does, huh ? You flatly reject any criticism, as if you were the sole person on the planet . . Boy, This would be fun, if it weren't so not fun (it's to laugh) . . .

    But, But, But  . . .     A unquestionably warped sense of obligation doesnt make you any 'righter'

 


 


 

   TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN --

 '' A unquestionably warped sense of obligation doesnt make you any 'righter' ''

 

:
 


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excellent observation.

harleysportster wrote:

 I for one do not see any difference in what is going on with the present pope than any other time in history. Look at the changes even within the simple art of say the Ottonian Era all the way up to the Gothic Era. You can see during the Romanesque Era the near frightening images of hellfire and damnation in the tympaniums to the gentler versions in some of the Gothic Era artworks. (It has been a long time since art history classes so I can not name specifics). Same could be said for the perception of Christ on the catacomb walls to the time of the Justinians. And that is just during the historic times. 

Look at the changes in Vatican II and although the so-called "reformations" of it. 

The Church has always been smart enough to adopt to the changing times while still holding on to the present beliefs. This pope is no different. Even back during the harsher times with the popes and anti-popes in Avignon and Rome, things were always changing. 

AT LEAST...That is what the cartoon cat on the motorcycle thinks from his very limited knowledge of history. Could have it all wrong. 

In my understanding also of things it's not going to make any difference what manner of Pope is Pope. A Pope, is a Pope, is a Pope, is a Pope.

1- he preaches against materialism.   ?????  A Popehood absolutley depends on materiaism for a Popeship to even be.

2- What manner of materialism is he for--A- his kind (if different from any other)that's just enough to keep him Pope. Or, B- The complete removal of materialism that destroys all the sytems that depend on it, causing the total collapse of capitalism,  business in general, and all governmnets.

3- without materialism there not much use for money---remove money and religiona all go away. No money, no church.   ????? He has to esplain this--somehow.

4- No materialism = no Vatican bank. Again--->  ???????

5- A prime eggsample of what's wrong on planet earth--the leaders don't know Diddley from where-of they speaketh. The masses depend upon the ones that break it --to fix it. Can't happen.

As you refer to---they'll just morph it into something that the masses will accept (be fooled by once again), and the fools parade will remain in line on the streets (mental condition)they provide.

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Well said, Harley.Old Seer

Well said, Harley.

Old Seer wrote:
Neither can use the rudiments of governing and different then the other--to us they are both the same.

Eh, that seems like an oversimplification at best. Religion and government are both authorities, and yes, they change with the times, but they are definitively different too. Governments are necessary for moderating society, unless you're a total anarchist. Religions are definitively dogmatic and largely superfluous. I certainly wouldn't conceptualize an opposition of government the same way I conceptualize an opposition of religion.

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Happy as a little duck are we ?!??

  > Happy as a little duck are we ?!??

    I can't but help but to truly wonder what your score would be in the narcissism test,  at  this point ?!???  DO YOU KNOW WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY ?!?!!?????

 

 

 

    Dude  . .  and this is clealy not yet sinking in with you . . yet ; is it ? !?


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Yes Dana--I know

danatemporary wrote:

 > Other's thoughts are completely lost on you OP ?

harleysportster wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
if you actually think that you and your "smurfs" are anywhere on the vatican's radar, much less that they are making policy changes around you, you're as delusional as emperor norton.

Who is Emperor Norton ? Sorry I could not resist asking that Smiling 

 To the OP ((slow pitch softball doesnt seem to work with you, that would be under the heading of delusional disorders . .  basically under the sub-heading of  contemptuous derision, and a deeply held contemptuous derision! ''Whiles I stood rapt in the wonder'' ~ MacBeth Act 1 Scene 5 ))
 

    I have many beliefs and values that are very dear to my heart and which I will defend passionately (other places), but none of them are above scrutiny.  However wide ranging, perhaps there is a reason 'the Word' is not  usually interpreted like ''proper Christianity'' does, huh ? You flatly reject any criticism, as if you were the sole person on the planet . . Boy, This would be fun, if it weren't so not fun (it's to laugh) . . .

    But, But, But  . . .     A unquestionably warped sense of obligation doesnt make you any 'righter'

 


 


 

   TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN --

 '' A unquestionably warped sense of obligation doesnt make you any 'righter' ''

 

:
 

I shouldn't get into these posts unless the participants have analysed the findings. They have no idea where I'm coming from--that's understood. People only understand the world they inheited, to present another is quite a chore and can be a loosing cause. The thing is--it takes time to understand, and very likely most floks aren't willing to take the time. OK so be it.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


iwbiek
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harleysportster wrote:iwbiek

harleysportster wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
if you actually think that you and your "smurfs" are anywhere on the vatican's radar, much less that they are making policy changes around you, you're as delusional as emperor norton.

Who is Emperor Norton ? Sorry I could not resist asking that Smiling 




a crazy resident of san francisco who in the 19th century declared himself emperor of the united states. people actually humored him, too. he became a sort of mascot. he did have a touch of nobility about him, especially in his fearless stance against the anti-chinese riots, but he was delusional nonetheless.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Old Seer wrote:if you not

Old Seer wrote:

if you not aquainted with our interpretaton. I'm assuming you haven't studied it as yet. It takes time--about 6 months of comparing. If you haven't your critisim is moot and merely assumption.  Smiling

Not that I agree with you since all religions are merely placebos, but just remember when you suggest he suggests you read something you haven't he is right, but when you suggest he reads something you are wrong.

 

I don't see the point in reading comic books other than for knowing humans write them and falsely believe they have magic powers and contain patents on human morality.

You could be talking about the Vatican or Mormon Church or Mecca or Synagouges and their leaders and it still amounts to a comic book club with a president who is an expert in mythology who pretends their book is a history book.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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"Leave me to my circles" ~ Archimedes

 

  Re :: **"Leave me to my circles" ~ Archimedes  ( an Ancient Greek mathematician , Archimedes of Syracuse, was quoted to have said when the Roman soldiers burst in unexpectedly ..   that one  ) 

   ((View Two  Uploaded images  at the very bottom))

 

 

Quote:
They have no idea where I'm coming from--that's understood . .

 

   Oh  .  .  .   And have you've talk to them about this at any time ?!?? Did you communicate to them in a way to  make them understand, then ?  All set yet ?!???????

 

 

   2 Peter 1:20 -- '' .. knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation . . '' (double meaning,  double reference, and on and off site)

 

 

 

 



 

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

  He lives within your heart, correct ?

JesusLovesYou wrote:

GOD'S NOT DEAD! HE'S SURELY ALIVE! HE'S LIVING ON THE INSIDE

 You ask me how I know he lives, he lives within my heart . .

 

  Reminds me of this song by only this isn't what your statement implies . . 
 

He's alive yes He's alive
Yes He's alive and I'm forgiven
Heaven's gates are open wide
He's alive yes He's alive
Oh He's alive and I'm forgiven
Heaven's gates are open wide
He's alive yes He's alive
He's alive and I'm forgiven
Heaven's gates are open wide
He's alive He's alive He's alive
I believe it He's alive
And just before the sunrise
I heard something at the wall
The gate began to rattle
And a voice began to call
I hurried to the window
Looked down into the street
Expecting swords and torches
And the sound of soldiers' feet

But there was no one there but Mary
So I went down to let her in
John stood there beside me
As she told me where she'd been
She said they might have moved Him in the night
And none of us knows where
The stone's been rolled away
And now His body isn't there

We both ran toward the garden
Then John ran on ahead
We found the stone and empty tomb
Just the way that Mary said
But the winding sheet they wrapped Him in
Was just an empty shell
And how or where they'd taken Him
Was more than I could tell

Oh something strange had happened there
Just what I did not know
John believed a miracle
But I just turned to go
Circumstance and speculation
Couldn't lift me very high
'Cause I'd seen them crucify him
Then I saw him die

Back inside the house again
The guilt and anguish came
Everything I'd promised Him
Just added to my shame
When at last it came to choices
I denied I knew His name
And even if He was alive
It wouldn't be the same

But suddenly the air was filled
With a strange and sweet perfume
Light that came from everywhere
Drove the shadows from the room
And Jesus stood before me
With his arms held open wide
And I fell down on my knees
And I just clung to Him and Cried!

He's alive yes He's alive
Yes He's alive and I'm forgiven
Heaven's gates are open wide
He's alive yes He's alive
Oh He's alive and I'm forgiven
Heaven's gates are open wide
He's alive yes He's alive
He's alive and I'm forgiven
Heaven's gates are open wide
He's alive He's alive He's alive
I believe it He's alive

 

  p.s. -- This is a route to engaging Sir Troll . . .

 

I was quoting a Newsboys song.  Was going to their concert so was excited.

 

   Jesus Lover, those lyrics suck the toenails of long dead hyenas. You're a real 'feelings' person, aren't you.

 



 

 

  p.s.  --  Jesus lover  . . .   And  Now  it's back to fun again.   I am needing much needed sleep, but will get some grub now instead . . .

 


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I'm not a narcissist Dana.

danatemporary wrote:

  > Happy as a little duck are we ?!??

    I can't but help but to truly wonder what your score would be in the narcissism test,  at  this point ?!???  DO YOU KNOW WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY ?!?!!?????

 

 

 

    Dude  . .  and this is clealy not yet sinking in with you . . yet ; is it ? !?

(If I'm the one that your directing this to) I'm not a person of self importance. Narcissism is a component of the world we're all in at this time. It's my place in the Smurfdom/Older Seers (or Smurfdum if prefered) to relay info to others. No self importance in the works. But if people don't care or want to look then--so be it. There's 30 of us with 3 Psycho types and others in schools of endevour and we ought to know if we have something or not. If we didn't recognize the importance of what we know then we wouldn't bother. So then-- if we feel what we know is important for others to know then we have to accomodate, and then--- that exempts us from any fault for not doing so because we tried, and tried again--and again. so --if no one cares and thinks we're dillusional (which the Psycho types would know, right) then so be it. We will move on in time and forget the whole thing and let happen what happens--with no guilt feelings--because we --said, we told, we pointed out, and we tried again. It's not our fasult anymore that the world is the way it is--and it would be "if" we know something important that others should be aware of. The way the world is--is everyone's fault at this time ---except us. We tried. so--we can go off and enjoy the rest of time and not have to worry about self importance and the likes. Thast's why we made up the website--so we don't have to deal with this after we decide to quite, and==it was there--pointed out, suggested, and no one cared or looked. Dana--we don't care at this point because we've been at this long enough. Now, if anyone needs help in fixing this world it is suggested to confer with the Menza society to see if they can come up with solutions to mankinds problems that everyone is complaining about. with their body of top 2% of the geniuses they'll have done in no time. Strange, isn't it that they haven't come up with anything so far except use there super menatal abilities on solving kiddy puzzles and riddles and let you all out there in the world hascking and chopping on each other--when they should be using that super genius of there's to inform you all of the solutions to your problems. Appaently we know something no one else cares to know. Okay. Call the Menza floks.   Smiling

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The Bible being

a comic book is merely an opinion of yours. The present interpreatation by the Vatican (ofor instance) makes it a comic book--true, we're with you on that one. What makes it that way is because they have the wrong interpretation---NOW there's another one, which of course everyone will say it's the same. Don't  you supoose that if ours is the same we'd forget it and move on because we would know that???? If you want to know the difference go here  https  : // sites . google . com /site / oldseers You'll have to jam the url back together.

Now then--if you don't go there--so be it, then the book remains a comic book to you doesn't it. And, don't think you're going to understand right off because you very klikely won't--it takes time to sink in and realize--as it did US. The floks who wrote this book weren't idiots, the floks who interpreted it are/were./still are.

We know that it's going to be Atheists on the first count (if you must know) that will be the one's to, or, inititate the changes in the world to get it fixed/changed. There's no one else available--is there. But, on what grounds can they make changes---not much except Atheism at this time doesn't have the insights to know what is needed. You all have the first thing required--there's no super humnan invisible god guy controling the universe. Now what you need is the rest. You have to prove religions wrong, and you have to do it from he sourse they use to keep their religion establish on--and that's a misinterptreation of the book. Get the right one and they're as good as gone. There are only two possible. OK, so what makes us think we've got the right one. That's something you have to find out--and no one can explain all the details needed to explain it. One has to look, think and compare. In time (as I've often pointed to) things will become apparent. We know because that how it happened to us.  All we did was look into why biblical creation isn't compatable with physics. About a tear later we knew why. and then that led to other things that were wondered about and that went on for about 8 years. And--there;'s more that we haven't dealt with because we got tired of dealing with it and moved on--with the insight that sometime we should give this to the people and let them deal with it. It's th masses that demand changes.

Now here's a flaw we see in Atheists reasoning. You all want someone to prove what they say or present. Think again. when a scientist developed or finds something new/different he doesn't have to prove a thing--but what he does have to do is give all his info and means used for other sicentist to---that's right-- do the experiment for themselves. What you're all saying is to prove something you're not willing to look at or make the experiment for youselfs--It doesn't work that way and scientists known it. If "you" don't do the experiment--you won't know, then all you have is an opinion. A staement can't ordinarily be proven by other statements. You need the material to make a decision. There'sa difference betywenn a staemanet and a material fact. A statement is mental, and a rock is material. Producing a rock as a meteorite is simple--give it to a knowledgable person to anyliyze and they have to look for themselves. But. mental poofs can be and mostly are quite different. There's nothing to give another but something written. But you have to read it. To explain complicated things isn't even feasable on a forum because complexities cannot be expressed properly. The process of putting something from the mind on paper or in writing creates it to be a material fact. Words in the air are only temporary material facts.

If the religions are confronted with an alternative interpretation then their claim that this god guy gives them their knowledge shows clearly that -that can't be true. God then, would have given them the other interpretation also.

What's different aboutm opur interpretaion as compared to their's. There's a difference between (it may take a bit to see this) the spirtual and the material, and that is the only two directions that an interpretaion of anything can be done. There can be various interpretatons of either, and thus far there's only one interpretation from the spiritual, and that is ours. Others will very likely come up with their own eventually.

Ok. We say that biblical creation is not a material undertaking, we say it's spiritual (spiritual = person) We say it's about the characteristics that make up ones' person. They say it's a material construction. Considering that (in biblical terms) the universe contains only two basics existing, material and spiritual/the minds of people, which means the univese is made up of only the mateial and the mental--nothing else is possible. That means only one of these interpretations can be correct, not both. Either creation is material or it's something mental. we say it's mental--a person is being described. Sounds nuts at first but let it sink in. If it's mental as we say, then why didn't the religions know that. It's up to the masses to decide, right. If they are enlightened by their god then why didn't they know the alternative. There's makes the book Brian 57's comic book, ours doesn't. Go to Irrationalites forum on the flood of Noah and see what we say. Our's makes sense--their's doesn't. That's the difference between these basic interpretaions. If the religions are wrong--they're gone. Simple as that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Old Seer wrote:Now here's a

Old Seer wrote:
Now here's a flaw we see in Atheists reasoning. You all want someone to prove what they say or present. Think again. when a scientist developed or finds something new/different he doesn't have to prove a thing--but what he does have to do is give all his info and means used for other sicentist to---that's right-- do the experiment for themselves. What you're all saying is to prove something you're not willing to look at or make the experiment for youselfs--It doesn't work that way and scientists known it. If "you" don't do the experiment--you won't know, then all you have is an opinion. A staement can't ordinarily be proven by other statements. You need the material to make a decision.

Eh...that's not atheists' reasoning. 

Of course, when I ask someone to prove something on an online forum, I'm not asking them to send me fossils though the postal service. Some fairly reliable websites are sufficient or you could present a topic from an angle I hadn't considered, etc. You only need to establish a degree of certainty, at which point I can say, "Yeah, that's probably correct."

I can't validate every scientific theory postulated by humanity in my kitchen. That's just impractical and leads us dangerously close to solipsism. That's why we share and record information. You said it yourself here: after the scientist does his experiment, he gives all the other scientists his info for peer review and so they can do his experiment as well. How do they know they can trust his information? Well, because, meh, why not? This is an inductive process. We gradually accumulate knowledge with increasing confidence and build on top of what we have already learned.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


iwbiek
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Old Seer wrote:Now here's a

Old Seer wrote:
Now here's a flaw we see in Atheists reasoning. You all want someone to prove what they say or present. Think again. when a scientist developed or finds something new/different he doesn't have to prove a thing--but what he does have to do is give all his info and means used for other sicentist to---that's right-- do the experiment for themselves. What you're all saying is to prove something you're not willing to look at or make the experiment for youselfs--It doesn't work that way and scientists known it. If "you" don't do the experiment--you won't know, then all you have is an opinion. A staement can't ordinarily be proven by other statements. You need the material to make a decision.



fair enough, but tell me, what is the projected result of your "experiment"? iow, what is your method supposed to accomplish?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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I was only

trying to make a point, not condem anyone, if that's how you took it. I'm saying (and explaining) that one cannot be expected to prove a verbal Claim. I can prove our claims--but, it'll take the entire site to explain it, or, write a book as thick as the bible itselfto get it explained. We understand these problems. One problem that to late to rectify is --I was asked here by the others to present our findings because I am a writer. But, I'm not very good at writing anymore creating a problem. and also because I have extreme patience with people of which they don't--and because mostly they didn't want to even deal with it but understood the job has to be done. Now you can see why they don't particularly care if the effort brings no result. I've seen plenty of post that state if one makes the claim they have to prove it. There'sto many things and instances that a verbal cannot be proven by another verbal--it takes reason on the part of the one receiving the info. Sorry, no offense intended.

A verbal is only material fact until the sound disapates and then it's gone. and being a verbal origintes from the mental it oft times take the mental of the listener to perseive it. A verbal may not have anything  going for it but the other person's mental. Either the recipiet makes a try to reason it out or has to let be. That's why I was advised to make up the website--a material fact to study.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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An understanding of

iwbiek wrote:
Old Seer wrote:
Now here's a flaw we see in Atheists reasoning. You all want someone to prove what they say or present. Think again. when a scientist developed or finds something new/different he doesn't have to prove a thing--but what he does have to do is give all his info and means used for other sicentist to---that's right-- do the experiment for themselves. What you're all saying is to prove something you're not willing to look at or make the experiment for youselfs--It doesn't work that way and scientists known it. If "you" don't do the experiment--you won't know, then all you have is an opinion. A staement can't ordinarily be proven by other statements. You need the material to make a decision.

fair enough, but tell me, what is the projected result of your "experiment"? iow, what is your method supposed to accomplish?

why the peoples cannot create a system of peace. And a recommendation of what to do and changes needed. It's not an experiment, it's what we learned as fact. If there is to be a world of peace and "peace of mind" it's the people that have to do it. The religions and governments can't and don't understand the problem. They only understand force, and force keeps creating the problems, and then the people think likewise causing social problems that cannot be solved. Governments look to force to operate society, but force is what causes the problems. There's more to then that but that's the basic. Governments and religions are both the problem. Governments and religions create the tempo of societies, and the people become as those who are in authority. If the one's in authority are defective the whole society is--hence, social problems. Put youirself into the works. You're a polititian, and how did you become a polititian----do you want everyone else to be like you. Yes or no makes no difference--you are asking them to be like you whether you know it or not. The people become as the one's they follow, otherwise what's the sense in being a leader. You are leading them from the preceptsyou know of yourself--what you are they become. If you are a liar it's ok for them to lie. If you are gross it's ok for them to be gross. If you love money they'll love money. As a leader one prpagates themself. So, what's the solution---stop being led. Take charge of your own mind---which "is" you. If your society has problems it trikled down from the top. \

The other thing is--- get to know yourself as not to be fooled by others who want to use you for their purp[ose---you have your own purposes see to them yourself, and let the other be stuck with his problen that he wants you to solve. As you demand of yourself insist in the other to demand of themself. People thinkthey know themselves but they really don't. First off--one is a result of what they were taught or coersed to be. If one dosen't recognize their upbringing how can they know them self when one is only what thay are taught to be. Question what it is that they made you to be,is it you,  are you-you, or is it what they want you to be, and "who" is "they".  What purpose of their do you serve as you are made up of their ideas from what they determine as "right". "is" they right really right or is it merely their idea of right. or is their right what they want it to be so you serve their purpose. Very simple--are you-you- or not, or are you them.

Start here--- you were born and when you were born you were basically no one. You developed into someone as time went by. What were you when you were born compared as to what/who you are now. At birth you knew nothing, so all that you learned til now is what makes you, which means those who taught you also made you. Analyze their makings--what do you see. Do you have to be what they made you, because when you were born could have you been made someone other (we say yes because we know what else one can be made into) You are a replica of those who taught you--analize those who taught you and you'll become knowing of yourself. When you were born you developed into someone, and that someone was someone else then what you are today. So, are you really you, or have you been manufactured. "they" took who you were at 2 years old and made you to be another did they not. What is it they made you---they made you as themselves. So, who are you. Are you sure??

What and who were you at 2 years old and why can't you be that now. Getting older only adds to what you learn, but what you learn doesn't have to change you. You can stay you and still learn as you get older--right. So, if you are not what you were when a child what are you now.

These are the questions all will have to ask before any social changes on planet earth. The question for everyone--Have I been decieved, and the go about proving it plus or minus. You may find you've been deceived. How can you know.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Breakthroughs don't happen by themselves . .

 > Breakthroughs don't happen by themselves

 

Old_Seer wrote:
"You are a replica of those who taught you--analyze those who taught you and you'll become knowing of yourself. When you were born you developed into someone, and that someone was someone else then what you are today. So, are you really you, or have you been manufactured. "they" took who you were at 2 years old and made you to be another did they not. What is it they made you---they made you as themselves. So, who are you. Are you sure?? What and who were you at 2 years old and why can't you be that now"

  And then there are those seamless attributes of continuity and change ebb and flow and you develope. There is nothing to be ashamed of in owning up to one's inadequacies and lack of understanding, however an acutely draining and difficult a journey that may be for one; instead of being concernfully absorbed in our own little worlds

   I remember my first semister in college, I had a close friend there is a very curious omission to most but a few was how very guilty I was / am of not talking about ''how close'' we were. It surprising how innocent relations between the sexs can be if they are honest ones, whereas if they only want something out of it, then theirs can harshest and most wretched experiences of fighting with should be loved most deeply . .

 

  And, What do you think about that thought ???


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Fair enough. I see what

Fair enough. I see what you're saying. 

Although, I have my doubts about the complexity of your beliefs or that it would take the "entire site" to explain it, just based on my past experiences with this kind of thing. But, that's not sufficient reason to argue about it. I don't know what your beliefs are, so I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I hope I understand

danatemporary wrote:

 > Breakthroughs don't happen by themselves

 

Old_Seer wrote:
"You are a replica of those who taught you--analyze those who taught you and you'll become knowing of yourself. When you were born you developed into someone, and that someone was someone else then what you are today. So, are you really you, or have you been manufactured. "they" took who you were at 2 years old and made you to be another did they not. What is it they made you---they made you as themselves. So, who are you. Are you sure?? What and who were you at 2 years old and why can't you be that now"

  And then there are those seamless attributes of continuity and change ebb and flow and you develope. There is nothing to be ashamed of in owning up to one's inadequacies and lack of understanding, however an acutely draining and difficult a journey that may be for one; instead of being concernfully absorbed in our own little worlds

   I remember my first semister in college, I had a close friend there is a very curious omission to most but a few was how very guilty I was / am of not talking about ''how close'' we were. It surprising how innocent relations between the sexs can be if they are honest ones, whereas if they only want something out of it, then theirs can harshest and most wretched experiences of fighting with should be loved most deeply . .

 

  And, What do you think about that thought ???

you correctly. One of the oustanding troubles in societies comes from how we a re taught to see each other. We are engineered to see others from a physical perspective rather then spiritual. Spiritual means from person to person in the mental aspects rather then material/physical. We are judged more buy7 what we are physically worth rather then a person. In esence, thye person/mental get jumbled together with the physical, but the physical gets the greater regard. From mental to maental (person to person) it's an information exchange and that's all. From the physical it's sexual, money, food, fun, etc that are of the material exchange. That puts the emphysis on physical relations because we are worth more to each other physically. In the physical exchange "ther person/mental" takes a back seat to the physical and the persm isn't regarded properly leading to the social problems we see in the world. Thats the essence of Christianty--I mean-proper Christianity, is to make the change from physical recognition to person reccognition. The book sees people as the spiritual not the physical, and in turn bring about an understanding of that spirtual that it sees one is. Thusly then--each has to get to know the self and how the self is constructed and of what--that's what psychosychiatry is about. The civil aspect guides one to see the physical as the person and make judgements accordingly--such as job capability or athletic abillity. Physical demention means more then mental demention.

The writers if the book see people as the mental and saying to adjust the mental to see the other person--not by physical sight but by minds eye. That means relating to each other mental to mental rather then physical to physical. Physical to physical doesn't properly recognize the other person. We make mental judgements of each other without realizing that it's the person the that judgements are made accrording for ro against, because in the world of civilizations it's the physical that hold sway over the mental. The book sees this as an improper regard for others. What the boo0k is forwarding is--everyone go back to where they came from and start over and be yourself rather then a system/government made person. People in civilizations are a system engineered being ajnd created unnatural. That means that people are what the authorities create them as for specific purposes. A society engineered by a few leads to desater time after time. The writer of the book know very well that a fwproplewill never be sicessful at managing a society, becasue what's wrong with the leaders becomes what's wrong with everyone and then the few try to correct it by force and don't realize it's they that are the problem. No one or small group can possibly know enough to maintain a peacefull society because it's the operators that make it go the wrong way.

The book covers this phenominon. Untill the time of Nimrod in the cancestory of the middle easterners they were Adamites. Nimrod changes that by creating society to his specification which change them to being like everyone else on the planet. Before Nimrod they had a society that was spontanious and natural and there was no civil government controlling. along comes Nimrod and dupes them into his idea of how things should be and ----changes them to being like him. before him the people were considered God, after Nimrod --Nimrod becomes God. God = force. Before Nimrod the Adamites were subject to natural pushes and pulls of their society whaich were understood to be God, and after Nimrod they become subject to forces of Nimrod and his cronies . This is what the fall of Adam is about--changing from the natural to the government engineering.  Consider this passage. As it has been said,as Nimrod a mighty humter before the lord. The lod is--"the people", and what does this mean--it means all became as Nimrod the predator--and the prodigy of Adam has been as such to this day. Every other government is the same--none are any different. Civil societies are predatory societies as all must prey upon the others for existance--hence--social problems that the operators haven't and can't solve to the present time.

Ok Dana--are you deceived or not. That's for you to decide. We are merely giving you the information to make that decision. we say we have the right interpretation of the book. But. it is up to each to detemine that for themselves. We are not clergymen,we aren't going to be building any churches, we aren't going to gather a congregation, we're not going to ask for money, we ask for no recognition above anyone else nor will we accept any. As you can see we no longer belong to the world as it is. We found another, a world of self governance by understanding the self and the componants that make one. We decide what we are. No Seer is subject to another. Their is no leader, there is no authority in our ranks, we are what we want to be taken from a knowing of the things that are--not made up by someone else. 

No one needs to put away the physicalas it also is of the things that are. But be aware that it may not be you as you may very well be something else. It is for you to decide and don't let anyone else make that decision for you   Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


danatemporary
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Extemporaneous spoken the godandthemachine blog IS . . .

  Cell above . .  this is what we all are saying (humor)



 Back to OP --

 [IMG] .. a kinder gentler Pope, and preaching against materialism. They may have finally gotten ahold of stuff from the Old Seers. Any predatory outfit is very keen on detecting an enemy. They now have an opposite interpretation to deal with which may force them to make changes.[/IMG]

  Fair and rightly due intrepretations or mistrepretation is part art and part science . . according to the New Testament . . REPLETE AND JAMMED PACKED WITH references to who 'teaches' . . . an intuitive understanding and realization doesnt fit if you pay attention to word meanings AT ALL, I am truly afraid in your case !!

 

     Extemporaneous spoken,  STILL  godandthemachine blog  is about as close to a 'catholic' defense as this site will EVER see, well there it is ! He communicated alot in a paragraph  . .  Read what follows::

 

   [In] godandthemachine blog It pays to remember this man's lingering doubts might have fueled his overall rhetoric. You see, I spent an hour reading back on the bloggist, from his words. He mentioned thrice he wanted to get back to the faith of his childhood. I can only surmise he must consider Atheism as a threat to faith in general. So No hugging I m thinking. Not much faith in Science: Thomas L. McDonald says: March 28, 2013 at 7:03 pm About the dating of the Shroud of Turin he comments: Given the vast amount of nonsense that passes peer review, you’ll excuse me if I don’t share the scientific community’s touching and childlike faith in the process, which they treat like some kind of secular sacrament rather than something overseen by fallible human beings. If the material is garbage, it will sort itself out soon enough. : Mr McDonald acquainted with mortal sufferings Psoriatic Arthritis He writes: Oh dear, does it suck. Yes indeed. It’s agonizing. It crippled me. It left me broken and wounded. And in that broken state, I finally crashed through my own pride and hubris and was able to touch the face of God. Pain is, as CS Lewis said, God’s megaphone. In my utter ruin, I was finally able to find the way back to the faith of my childhood. I had an encounter with the living God that left me with no doubt at all about His existence. Position on the Old and New Testaments (Sacrosanct): Literature Since I began working on a masters, I have had 18 solid months of no reading other than theology. I finally snapped, and made some time for a first love: books ..The written word is sacred. Scripture was a gift of the undiluted guidance of the Holy Spirit. Shakespeare, Yeats, Dickens, Chesterton, Eliot, and others were also given a gift of the Spirit, albeit it in a lesser form than Holy Writ. We find god there as well. It is hard to find that sweet spot where it is worth the time and trouble to correct them. Or leave them to their own devises and folly. Ironically, Mr. April fools made a reference to a Dickens' Novel, to a very particular reference that says to beware of 'ignorance'. I did read where he admits to countradicting himself before. This bloggist reminds me so much of Sting's song. Pick up the YouTube Link, when you can, play it Smiling   My hunch is there is a vast under-belly of inherent contradictions hidden by this pompous way of his!! Check out the link you might have missed from this guy: http://hotair.com/archives/2008/06/23/new-pew-survey-21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/

 

   Trying to be fair , I guess with my leanings that is impossible . . Our 'Catholic' is still MIA on this board, apparently . . .

 




 




  Utterly Unrelated to Thread or topic . .

   Freebie

 

 

 RE :: Epic drama and tragedy, muted tones of happiness -- sadness mixed into a whole.

 

 
  (Caption :: Laugh now Clown, at your broken love)

  In the Uploaded Image .. Wondering what the translation to the Italian phrase is :: http://www.metrolyrics.com/vesti-la-giubba-pagliacci-leoncavallo-lyrics-luciano-pavarotti.html

    You guys have this repeated obstinate insistence upon the Bible being boring. Granted nobody, not even I, pores over it daily.  One thing, for sure,  Opera aint got nothing on the Bible, sacred text or just a set of stories, there is a spectrum of opinions...again Opera ain't got nothing on it . .

"Pagliacci", the best known aria is titled :: Vesti la Giubba (w/English subtitles), Leoncavallo

"Pagliacci"

Summaries are found all over the place Example  : http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/history/stories/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfGKDP9NBkk

Roberto Alagna (worth a spare moment to hear), in his 2005 performance  IF BROKEN LINK  look it up it is worth viewing . . .

 


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I hope I understand

danatemporary wrote:

 > Breakthroughs don't happen by themselves

 

Old_Seer wrote:
"You are a replica of those who taught you--analyze those who taught you and you'll become knowing of yourself. When you were born you developed into someone, and that someone was someone else then what you are today. So, are you really you, or have you been manufactured. "they" took who you were at 2 years old and made you to be another did they not. What is it they made you---they made you as themselves. So, who are you. Are you sure?? What and who were you at 2 years old and why can't you be that now"

  And then there are those seamless attributes of continuity and change ebb and flow and you develope. There is nothing to be ashamed of in owning up to one's inadequacies and lack of understanding, however an acutely draining and difficult a journey that may be for one; instead of being concernfully absorbed in our own little worlds

   I remember my first semister in college, I had a close friend there is a very curious omission to most but a few was how very guilty I was / am of not talking about ''how close'' we were. It surprising how innocent relations between the sexs can be if they are honest ones, whereas if they only want something out of it, then theirs can harshest and most wretched experiences of fighting with should be loved most deeply . .

 

  And, What do you think about that thought ???

you correctly. One of the oustanding troubles in societies comes from how we a re taught to see each other. We are engineered to see others from a physical perspective rather then spiritual. Spiritual means from person to person in the mental aspects rather then material/physical. We are judged more buy7 what we are physically worth rather then a person. In esence, thye person/mental get jumbled together with the physical, but the physical gets the greater regard. From mental to maental (person to person) it's an information exchange and that's all. From the physical it's sexual, money, food, fun, etc that are of the material exchange. That puts the emphysis on physical relations because we are worth more to each other physically. In the physical exchange "ther person/mental" takes a back seat to the physical and the persm isn't regarded properly leading to the social problems we see in the world. Thats the essence of Christianty--I mean-proper Christianity, is to make the change from physical recognition to person reccognition. The book sees people as the spiritual not the physical, and in turn bring about an understanding of that spirtual that it sees one is. Thusly then--each has to get to know the self and how the self is constructed and of what--that's what psychosychiatry is about. The civil aspect guides one to see the physical as the person and make judgements accordingly--such as job capability or athletic abillity. Physical demention means more then mental demention.

The writers if the book see people as the mental and saying to adjust the mental to see the other person--not by physical sight but by minds eye. That means relating to each other mental to mental rather then physical to physical. Physical to physical doesn't properly recognize the other person. We make mental judgements of each other without realizing that it's the person the that judgements are made accrording for ro against, because in the world of civilizations it's the physical that hold sway over the mental. The book sees this as an improper regard for others. What the boo0k is forwarding is--everyone go back to where they came from and start over and be yourself rather then a system/government made person. People in civilizations are a system engineered being ajnd created unnatural. That means that people are what the authorities create them as for specific purposes. A society engineered by a few leads to desater time after time. The writer of the book know very well that a fwproplewill never be sicessful at managing a society, becasue what's wrong with the leaders becomes what's wrong with everyone and then the few try to correct it by force and don't realize it's they that are the problem. No one or small group can possibly know enough to maintain a peacefull society because it's the operators that make it go the wrong way.

The book covers this phenominon. Untill the time of Nimrod in the ancestory of the middle easterners they were Adamites. Nimrod changes that by creating society to his specification which change them to being like everyone else on the planet. Before Nimrod they had a society that was spontanious and natural and there was no civil government controlling. along comes Nimrod and dupes them into his idea of how things should be and ----changes them to being like him. before him the people were considered God, after Nimrod --Nimrod becomes God. God = force. Before Nimrod the Adamites were subject to natural pushes and pulls of their society whaich were understood to be God, and after Nimrod they become subject to forces of Nimrod and his cronies . This is what the fall of Adam is about--changing from the natural to the government engineering.  Consider this passage. As it has been said,as Nimrod a mighty humter before the lord. The lod is--"the people", and what does this mean--it means all became as Nimrod the predator--and the prodigy of Adam has been as such to this day. Every other government is the same--none are any different. Civil societies are predatory societies as all must prey upon the others for existance--hence--social problems that the operators haven't and can't solve to the present time.

Ok Dana--are you deceived or not. That's for you to decide. We are merely giving you the information to make that decision. we say we have the right interpretation of the book. But. it is up to each to detemine that for themselves. We are not clergymen,we aren't going to be building any churches, we aren't going to gather a congregation, we're not going to ask for money, we ask for no recognition above anyone else nor will we accept any. As you can see we no longer belong to the world as it is. We found another, a world of self governance by understanding the self and the componants that make one. We decide what we are. No Seer is subject to another. Their is no leader, there is no authority in our ranks, we are what we want to be taken from a knowing of the things that are--not made up by someone else. 

No one needs to put away the physical as it also is of the things that are. But be aware that it may not be you as you may very well be something else. It is for you to decide and don't let anyone else make that decision for you   Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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No, I'm afraid you're even more wrong on that one . .

 Re :: No,  I'm afraid you're even more wrong on that one . .

 

 

 

Quote:
Ok Dana--are you deceived or not. That's for you to decide.

 

   No,  I'm afraid, like many on and off site . . you're even more wrong on that one . . .

 

 p.s. -- And Off-site says there's no value in the board (55555); I dont have time to get into this  or I will miss the late  late show . . .


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I'd say I'm

butterbattle wrote:

Fair enough. I see what you're saying. 

Although, I have my doubts about the complexity of your beliefs or that it would take the "entire site" to explain it, just based on my past experiences with this kind of thing. But, that's not sufficient reason to argue about it. I don't know what your beliefs are, so I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Correct on it would take extensive writing to complete the entire works. We know what questions would be asked before hand and I would attempt to answer all questions known (some still unknown however--we don't know it all and don't care to) . For example consider my last post to Dana--and that wasn't complete.I could have went further yet, but cut it short to for a PS or edit to explain "proper christianity". Haveing gone just 2 paragraphs on that I pressed to wrong key and lost it , so I let it for another time.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


danatemporary
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And Peace out . . .

 And  Peace out . . .


Old Seer
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How do you know. :)

danatemporary wrote:

 Re :: No,  I'm afraid you're even more wrong on that one . .

 

 

 

Quote:
Ok Dana--are you deceived or not. That's for you to decide.

 

   No,  I'm afraid, like many on and off site . . you're even more wrong on that one . . .

 

 p.s. -- And Off-site says there no value in the board (55555)

You are created by government mandates are you not. What you're saying is--you beat Nimrod---mmmmm could be. If so how did you do that. Todays governments are no different then Nimrods. Is a Monarchy different from a Democracy. If so. how so. To regulate a society takes the same decisions Monarchy or Democracy. 400 people regulating a society have to make the same decisions as a  King. The rudiments of rule are the same. How do a few operate a government without decption. Rule is force, force produces the same results no mattern the origin of the force.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


Brian37
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Old Seer wrote:butterbattle

Old Seer wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Mhmm, many if not most people in first world countries that consider themselves Catholic were already more moderate than the stance previously taken by the Vatican. 

Imo, in this day and age, any religion with a centralized body like this needs to make changes to their doctrine periodically to keep up with public opinion. For example, when the LDS church president received a prophecy allowing black pastors. I don't know the details on how this change in the Vatican came about, but I'd bet my left arm it was influenced by negative perceptions about the Vatican that have strengthened in recent years: no longer relevant, child molestors, old greedy men, etc.

If their stance is closer to what you call the "Old Seer," that is probably coincidence, I think.

it seems people world over are dissatified with their governments. That definetly would prompt authorities to make changes--and likewise religiions. But to a Smurf, Government is religion as it depends upon a belief system. The beliefs of governmnets are the same as relgions. That which governs is the same as that which governs and what is considered government has the same goals as what is considered religions. Religions are also in the purposes of governing. Neither can use the rudiments of governing and different then the other--to us they are both the same. We do kinow in time our interpretaion will come in conflict with theirs--there's only 2 possible, and that being from a spiritual vs material viewpoint. Only one can be correct.

They should be. 85 people worldwide have the equal income of half the world's population. Global corpratism is sucking the money up from the working class and poor.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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