Ex-Mormon Suing For Fraud

zarathustra
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Ex-Mormon Suing For Fraud

Disaffected British Mormon taking LDS prophet to court

Tom Phillips, a former Mormon bishop and stake president, asserts, among other claims, that LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson has "made representations ... which were ... untrue or misleading" — including that "there was no death on this planet prior to 6,000 years ago" and that "all humans alive today are descended from just two people who lived approximately 6,000 years ago" — to "make a gain for himself or another."

...

"I’m sitting here with an open mouth," Neil Addison, a former crown prosecutor and author on religious freedom told The Republic. "I think the British courts will recoil in horror. This is just using the law to make a show, an anti-Mormon point. And I’m frankly shocked that a magistrate has issued it."

I find this particular incident amusing, but does raise a fair question of how accountable can religious organisations legally be held. Since contributions to churches are termed donations, and therefore voluntary, a mark throwing his money away in the collection cannot complain afterwards of being duped, as can a customer for a vendor's false advertising.  

Scientology was convicted of fraud in a French court in 2009.  Except perhaps for some bad PR, it does not seem to have had much effect on the organisation.

 

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I'd like to see court cases

I'd like to see court cases against religions for false advertising. I'd like to see christian leaders in this country sued for violating the seperation of church and state. I'm too tired right now to think, but I could come up with a few more.

 


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 The last thing we need is

 The last thing we need is government determining what is true and what isn't. I don't trust them to be right, and it isn't far fetched that a religious majority will sooner or later have political power. There are plenty of Huckabees and Bush's out there in politics. One should always be cautious granting power to government just because it comes down on your side now. In the not so distant future, it can be on the side of your opponents. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Better government than

Better government than corporations.

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Beyond Saving wrote: The

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The last thing we need is government determining what is true and what isn't. I don't trust them to be right, and it isn't far fetched that a religious majority will sooner or later have political power. There are plenty of Huckabees and Bush's out there in politics. One should always be cautious granting power to government just because it comes down on your side now. In the not so distant future, it can be on the side of your opponents. 

Catious yes, paranoid is what you are. You suffer the same delusions about economics as theists do about religion. You cry foul when you don't get what you want.

If a religion is doing something that creates oppression through law, it is wrong. If a religion puts a child's life in danger it is wrong. But economics can be just as much blindly worshiped as a religion. It can cause suffering and put people in danger. You stupidly think that merely owning a business constitues morality automatically.

"Less government" only works when those with the money don't abuse their power.

I see absolutely NOTHING at the top end of pay, collectively as a climate, that indicates they give one rats ass about the rest of us. Some big businesses do, but not enough.

Why shouldn't we be causious about the abuse of business? Business is only one aspect of society, but it is not the only one.

Your selfish mentality leads to things like the great depression. Your selfish mentality leads to things like the coal mine scams that paid in company script making indentured slaves out of workers. Your selfish mentality is why climate change is happening. Your selfish mentality is why 85 people are too fucking selfish and sit on 110 trillion dollars while 40% of the world's population stays in abject poverty.

Then you have the nerve to bitch when others ask the same government WE live under to help them. You want to be cautious you can start by being less fucking selfish with your voting habits. You are great with your "the world does not revolve around you", take your own advice then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Vastet wrote:Better

Vastet wrote:
Better government than corporations.

Unfortunately right now I agree with you. Under the right conditions I would have no problem with Beyond's concept of what could be, but the conditions are not currently there.

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Beyond Saving
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Brian37 wrote:Beyond Saving

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The last thing we need is government determining what is true and what isn't. I don't trust them to be right, and it isn't far fetched that a religious majority will sooner or later have political power. There are plenty of Huckabees and Bush's out there in politics. One should always be cautious granting power to government just because it comes down on your side now. In the not so distant future, it can be on the side of your opponents. 

Catious yes, paranoid is what you are. You suffer the same delusions about economics as theists do about religion. You cry foul when you don't get what you want.

If a religion is doing something that creates oppression through law, it is wrong. If a religion puts a child's life in danger it is wrong. But economics can be just as much blindly worshiped as a religion. It can cause suffering and put people in danger. You stupidly think that merely owning a business constitues morality automatically.

"Less government" only works when those with the money don't abuse their power.

I see absolutely NOTHING at the top end of pay, collectively as a climate, that indicates they give one rats ass about the rest of us. Some big businesses do, but not enough.

Why shouldn't we be causious about the abuse of business? Business is only one aspect of society, but it is not the only one.

Your selfish mentality leads to things like the great depression. Your selfish mentality leads to things like the coal mine scams that paid in company script making indentured slaves out of workers. Your selfish mentality is why climate change is happening. Your selfish mentality is why 85 people are too fucking selfish and sit on 110 trillion dollars while 40% of the world's population stays in abject poverty.

Then you have the nerve to bitch when others ask the same government WE live under to help them. You want to be cautious you can start by being less fucking selfish with your voting habits. You are great with your "the world does not revolve around you", take your own advice then.

 

My post had absolutely nothing to do with economics. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Beyond Saving
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Vastet wrote:Better

Vastet wrote:
Better government than corporations.

Exactly which corporation is trying to punish someone for saying something it belives is untrue?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Vastet
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Beyond Saving wrote:Vastet

Beyond Saving wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Better government than corporations.

Exactly which corporation is trying to punish someone for saying something it belives is untrue?

Every oil company. Before them were corporations putting chemicals in the air that were causing the planet to cool and destroying the ozone layer. Before them were cigarette manufacturers.

History is replete with corporations hurting people en masse to make a buck, and lying to defend themselves in the process. Yes, governments do it too. But governments can't sustain the battle as long as corporations can. Thus they do less harm.

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Beyond Saving
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Vastet wrote:Beyond Saving

Vastet wrote:
Beyond Saving wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Better government than corporations.

Exactly which corporation is trying to punish someone for saying something it belives is untrue?

Every oil company. Before them were corporations putting chemicals in the air that were causing the planet to cool and destroying the ozone layer. Before them were cigarette manufacturers. History is replete with corporations hurting people en masse to make a buck, and lying to defend themselves in the process. Yes, governments do it too. But governments can't sustain the battle as long as corporations can. Thus they do less harm.

I am not discussing "harm" in general. I was commenting directly on government deciding what is true and what is untrue and punishing people for communicating falsehoods. A corporation polluting is not at all comparable to a government controlling speech, they aren't even close to related issues.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Ridiculous. A company

Ridiculous. A company denying global warming in order to prevent having to curb pollution is EXACTLY the same thing as a government deciding that global warming is or isn't happening. In both scenarios a group is deciding what is true and what is false.

Better a government than a corporation.

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Beyond Saving
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Vastet wrote:Ridiculous. A

Vastet wrote:
Ridiculous. A company denying global warming in order to prevent having to curb pollution is EXACTLY the same thing as a government deciding that global warming is or isn't happening. In both scenarios a group is deciding what is true and what is false. Better a government than a corporation.

No it isn't. A corporation can't jail anyone, fine anyone or punish anyone for having a differing opinion. Exxon can deny global warming until they are blue in the face, but if you go out in public and say global warming is real, they can't do a thing about it. In this case, the government IS punishing someone for nothing more than saying something false. In this case, the government is being asked to take a side and determine what is true and what is false and then to use that determination to directly punish someone for their belief. Free speech is always better, even if it is false, lying or misleading. A corporation can't stop you, fine you or jail you for saying anything. Government can, and in this case, is being asked to do so. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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It is EXACTLY the same, and

It is EXACTLY the same, and nothing you've said is even relevant.

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Beyond Saving wrote: The

Beyond Saving wrote:
 The last thing we need is government determining what is true and what isn't.  
 Ridiculous. Then we must teach creationism alongside evolution in science class because we can't know what is true. This is exactly what is the problem with government, they don't determine what is true(by scientific methods) and act accordingly to solve problems. So Bernie Madoff goes to jail for making false claims, but Thomas Monson gets a pass? The government had to decide Madoff's claims were false to put him jail. However, I think you could justify not going after religion on the grounds that atheists are too small a minority. Not worth picking a fight with Mike Tyson if you're a still 98 lbs. weakling. Wait for crazy Tyson to self destruct. 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen