Nelson Mandela Admits Thoughts, Prayers Of Millions Played No Part In Recovery

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Nelson Mandela Admits Thoughts, Prayers Of Millions Played No Part In Recovery

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nelson-mandela-admits-thoughts-prayers-of-millions,32853

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PRETORIA, SOUTH AFRICA—Addressing supporters Monday from the hospital bed where he is being treated for a recurring lung infection, former South African president Nelson Mandela admitted that the millions of thoughts, prayers, and well-wishes he has received have played absolutely no role in his improving health, and that his recovery has been 100 percent dependent on doctors. “In these past days of struggle, I have seen messages of hope and love from citizens around the world, which, while nice, weren’t going to help remove the excess fluid from my lungs. Doctors do that,” Mandela told reporters. “The capacity of gentle souls to unite their voices in a message of peace and strength is certainly the greatest gift of mankind—I’m not denying any of that. But when you’re a 94-year-old man with a horrible lung infection, you need trained medical professionals. That’s really most important. All that prayer stuff is, frankly, pretty useless.” Mandela said that while his doctors were compassionate and thoughtful human beings of unflinching character, that’s not going to do anyone any good if they “don’t give me some codeine.”

 


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there's never enough

there's never enough codeine

 


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Kapkao wrote:there's never

Kapkao wrote:

there's never enough codeine

 

fuck yeah. whatever they gave me after my wisdom teeth surgery had codeine in it. having my wisdom teeth removed was one of the most pleasant experiences of my life. i remember getting up to go to the bathroom and feeling like i was walking through molasses or something, and thinking that was pretty fucking awesome. i only wish those motherfuckers tried to grow in a second time.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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hey cap, why do you keep

hey cap, why do you keep those old-ass taylor swift pictures? she ditched the ain't-i-the-cutest image like 2 or 3 years ago. now she's all jagged and harsh and shit.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:hey cap, why do

iwbiek wrote:
hey cap, why do you keep those old-ass taylor swift pictures? she ditched the ain't-i-the-cutest image like 2 or 3 years ago. now she's all jagged and harsh and shit.

 

citation needed

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:iwbiek

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
hey cap, why do you keep those old-ass taylor swift pictures? she ditched the ain't-i-the-cutest image like 2 or 3 years ago. now she's all jagged and harsh and shit.

 

citation needed

 

 

 

                                                                                                 

 

 

                                                                                          Taylor Swift partying down after hours.   From paparazzi website  www.tmz.com

 

 

 

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
hey cap, why do you keep those old-ass taylor swift pictures? she ditched the ain't-i-the-cutest image like 2 or 3 years ago. now she's all jagged and harsh and shit.

 

citation needed

 

 

 

                                                                                                 

 

 

                                                                                          Taylor Swift partying down after hours.   From paparazzi website  www.tmz.com

 

 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:citation

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
citation needed






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iwbiek wrote:Kapkao

iwbiek wrote:
Kapkao wrote:

there's never enough codeine

 

fuck yeah. whatever they gave me after my wisdom teeth surgery had codeine in it. having my wisdom teeth removed was one of the most pleasant experiences of my life. i remember getting up to go to the bathroom and feeling like i was walking through molasses or something, and thinking that was pretty fucking awesome. i only wish those motherfuckers tried to grow in a second time.

Hypocrite. So when Mandela says prayer is useless, you are ok with that. When I say the same thing, I am the bad guy.

The DOCTORS did the work, and as nice as placebos make humans feel, which is what Mandela was arguing, don't do shit.

I only add to that that those placebos are a dangerous distraction. The church had the placebo thought that the sun rotated around the earth, and Galileo upon stating fact was punished for it.

 

You have to accept that people have "feelings" and like to express them. NO SHIT, but wallowing in superstitious "feelings" didn't prolong Mandela's life, DOCTORS DID IT!

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Brian37 wrote:iwbiek

Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
Kapkao wrote:

there's never enough codeine

 

fuck yeah. whatever they gave me after my wisdom teeth surgery had codeine in it. having my wisdom teeth removed was one of the most pleasant experiences of my life. i remember getting up to go to the bathroom and feeling like i was walking through molasses or something, and thinking that was pretty fucking awesome. i only wish those motherfuckers tried to grow in a second time.

Hypocrite. So when Mandela says prayer is useless, you are ok with that. When I say the same thing, I am the bad guy.

The DOCTORS did the work, and as nice as placebos make humans feel, which is what Mandela was arguing, don't do shit.

I only add to that that those placebos are a dangerous distraction. The church had the placebo thought that the sun rotated around the earth, and Galileo upon stating fact was punished for it.

 

You have to accept that people have "feelings" and like to express them. NO SHIT, but wallowing in superstitious "feelings" didn't prolong Mandela's life, DOCTORS DID IT!






IT'S THE FUCKING ONION, YOU DIPSHIT!!!!


IT'S A SATIRICAL FUCKING NEWSPAPER!!!!!!!


DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS???? IT MEANS THAT SHIT DIDN'T FUCKING HAPPEN!!!


FUCK, YOU'RE STUPID!!!!!!!



"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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And Mandela was a *gasp*

And Mandela was a *gasp* Christian who viewed religion as a force of good in the world and a personal inspiration. Does that mean Mandela was POISON!

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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oh, and btw, as if i haven't



oh, and btw, as if i haven't said it clearly enough numerous times over the years:

PRAYER DOESN'T DO JACKSHIT IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!!!

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
Kapkao wrote:

there's never enough codeine

 

fuck yeah. whatever they gave me after my wisdom teeth surgery had codeine in it. having my wisdom teeth removed was one of the most pleasant experiences of my life. i remember getting up to go to the bathroom and feeling like i was walking through molasses or something, and thinking that was pretty fucking awesome. i only wish those motherfuckers tried to grow in a second time.

Hypocrite. So when Mandela says prayer is useless, you are ok with that. When I say the same thing, I am the bad guy.

The DOCTORS did the work, and as nice as placebos make humans feel, which is what Mandela was arguing, don't do shit.

I only add to that that those placebos are a dangerous distraction. The church had the placebo thought that the sun rotated around the earth, and Galileo upon stating fact was punished for it.

 

You have to accept that people have "feelings" and like to express them. NO SHIT, but wallowing in superstitious "feelings" didn't prolong Mandela's life, DOCTORS DID IT!



IT'S THE FUCKING ONION, YOU DIPSHIT!!!!
IT'S A SATIRICAL FUCKING NEWSPAPER!!!!!!!
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS???? IT MEANS THAT SHIT DIDN'T FUCKING HAPPEN!!!
FUCK, YOU'RE STUPID!!!!!!!

Ok, so the fact that I got duped makes prayer scientifically usefull outside a mere placebo? Funny how I am willing to admit my perceptions are flawed, but you think it is ok that others believe patiently false bullshit because it makes them feel good.

 

 

So fake or not, Mandala should have chose prayer over doctors ? And I am so glad the world is living under Stalin's perfect interpretation of Marx and Lennon. Pravda comrade.

 

The truth, in what she posted is that prayer is bullshit, otherwise people would not need doctors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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I did miss the link. Ok, he

I did miss the link. Ok, he didn't say that, but it is reflective of what skeptics and scientists know is true in that prayer is just a bullshit placebo.

 

Prayer works like Ouija Boards and Santa. Get enough people to believe it at a political mass and you can keep power through believing bullshit.

The ancient Egyptians were successful for 3,000 years falsely believing the sun was a god and prayed to it. I am glad we don't believe that bullshit anymore, no matter how pretty their monuments and depictions to their superstitions are.

You can shit in a toilet and see the reality. Prayer is pretending that shit will never happen to you.

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Brian37 wrote:Ok, so the

Brian37 wrote:
Ok, so the fact that I got duped makes prayer scientifically usefull outside a mere placebo? Funny how I am willing to admit my perceptions are flawed, but you think it is ok that others believe patiently false bullshit because it makes them feel good.

 

 

So fake or not, Mandala should have chose prayer over doctors ? And I am so glad the world is living under Stalin's perfect interpretation of Marx and Lennon. Pravda comrade.

 

The truth, in what she posted is that prayer is bullshit, otherwise people would not need doctors.

 

 

 

 

 

 






you are literally out of your feeble mind. refuting you is like killing a fly with a shotgun, but i'll do it anyway.


a. i've never said prayer was "scientifically useful" for anything. see my above post. quote me where i've ever advocated prayer. matter of fact, brian, quote me where i've ever said any of the shit you've accused me of saying. you can't, because those quotes don't exist.


b. lennon was a beatle, as i've said before.


c. you're obviously a spiteful, pathetic little creature because after several weeks of me giving you a sound intellectual thrashing, exposing you as ignorant, dimwitted, dishonest, hysterical, deluded, self-absorbed, self-aggrandized, and insecure, the only thing you have to fall back on is attacking my fucking avatar. you're embarrassing yourself, brian, seriously. listen to people around you. get away from the site for a few weeks or something. take a break. that's more advice than you deserve.


d. so i'm a dyed-in-the-wool marxist-leninist (not that you have the first clue what that is), but i also advocate prayer for the sick? where do you get this shit? 'cause you ain't gettin' it from my posts.



"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Brian37
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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Ok, so the fact that I got duped makes prayer scientifically usefull outside a mere placebo? Funny how I am willing to admit my perceptions are flawed, but you think it is ok that others believe patiently false bullshit because it makes them feel good.

 

 

 

So fake or not, Mandala should have chose prayer over doctors ? And I am so glad the world is living under Stalin's perfect interpretation of Marx and Lennon. Pravda comrade.

 

The truth, in what she posted is that prayer is bullshit, otherwise people would not need doctors.

 

 

 

 

 

 



you are literally out of your feeble mind. refuting you is like killing a fly with a shotgun, but i'll do it anyway.
a. i've never said prayer was "scientifically useful" for anything. see my above post. quote me where i've ever advocated prayer. matter of fact, brian, quote me where i've ever said any of the shit you've accused me of saying. you can't, because those quotes don't exist.
b. lennon was a beatle, as i've said before.
c. you're obviously a spiteful, pathetic little creature because after several weeks of me giving you a sound intellectual thrashing, exposing you as ignorant, dimwitted, dishonest, hysterical, deluded, self-absorbed, self-aggrandized, and insecure, the only thing you have to fall back on is attacking my fucking avatar. you're embarrassing yourself, brian, seriously. listen to people around you. get away from the site for a few weeks or something. take a break. that's more advice than you deserve.
d. so i'm a dyed-in-the-wool marxist-leninist (not that you have the first clue what that is), but i also advocate prayer for the sick? where do you get this shit? 'cause you ain't gettin' it from my posts.

I don't give one fuck what their intent was. Newton got physics right but fucked up with Alchemy. And judging what Stalin did with what they said and his successful marketing of their ideas and his genocidal oppression as a result of their words, whatever right they might have gotten right was poisoned by flawed perception.

Same with holy books. You can find compassionate motifs in all religions as well as any "good intent" the guys in your flag you worship as heros, but that is where humanity gets in trouble and allows people like Stalin, and the dark ages and 9/11.

Pretty motifs do not match the messy reality all of us live in.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:.Pretty motifs

Brian37 wrote:
.

Pretty motifs do not match the messy reality all of us live in.

 

 

                                    Bullets match perfectly.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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Quote:a. i've never said

Quote:
a. i've never said prayer was "scientifically useful"

Good, then don't be an asshole when someone states fact and get angry at them for being blunt about the truth that prayer is bullshit.

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:a. i've

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
a. i've never said prayer was "scientifically useful"

Good, then don't be an asshole when someone states fact and get angry at them for being blunt about the truth that prayer is bullshit.

That isn't at all what he has criticized for.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
a. i've never said prayer was "scientifically useful"

Good, then don't be an asshole when someone states fact and get angry at them for being blunt about the truth that prayer is bullshit.

That isn't at all what he has criticized for.




christ, i've had so many words shoved in my fucking mouth i'll need my stomach pumped...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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No one is putting words in

No one is putting words in your mouth.

YOUR AVATAR is seen by most in the west as representing oppression, NOT FREEDOM.

If you support them your argument is going to be "They are misunderstood".

No different than when people of competing religions say "you don't understand".

And in both cases, be it worship of a political worldview or a holy book, STILL FUCKING MISSES THE FACT THAT evolution doesn't give one fuck about our personal desires, it only works because we fuck. It does not care how we get there.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Beyond Saving wrote:And

Beyond Saving wrote:

And Mandela was a *gasp* Christian who viewed religion as a force of good in the world and a personal inspiration. Does that mean Mandela was POISON!

No, not the man, but the idea that humans pass down through generations, yes.

Religious people doing good does not mean that the religion itself is good, it just means the people who hold it think it is a necessity. Muslims have their motifs of charity too. So do Hindus and Christians and Jews.

The same people who oppressed him used religion to justify it with the same religion and holy book Mandela read. The "virtue" of the oppressed does not make a god real. Mandela, nor Malala, nor King, for all the good they did, can make their pain a patent for the existence of a god.

The poison is in all of our species history of bad logic in thinking we are special, when we make excuses to be cruel to others or falsely think our own superstitions constitutes them being the inventor of compassion or morality/

Mandela was compassionate IN SPITE of his personal delusions of a fictional god. He is my hero, not because of our species flawed logic in human history, he is my hero because our SPECIES has displayed his kind of behavior.

Religion poisons humanity because it distracts us from our common condition.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:No one is

Brian37 wrote:

No one is putting words in your mouth.

Really? Care to wager on whether or not you could find any of the quotes you have attributed to iwbiek?

 

Brian37 wrote:

YOUR AVATAR is seen by most in the west as representing oppression, NOT FREEDOM.

Only by idiots who are completely ignorant of political ideologies.

 

Brian37 wrote:

If you support them your argument is going to be "They are misunderstood".

They are misunderstood by many people, because most people haven't bothered reading their important writings. Instead they simply associate everything through the hysterical propaganda of the red scare (among their detractors) or the simplistic egalitarianism which amounts to wealth distribution adopted by people who fancy themselves Marxists and strut around in Che shirts but are equally ignorant.

 

Brian37 wrote:
 

No different than when people of competing religions say "you don't understand".

The difference is that iwbiek actually knows what the fuck he is talking about. He has a well reasoned and well thought out political ideology. One which is radically different from my own, but one that is certainly intelligent. Unlike some people who have absolutely no political ideology and have completely incoherent political views that make them susceptible to the hysterical politics used mostly by people seeking personal political power over building an effective system.

 

Brian37 wrote:

And in both cases, be it worship of a political worldview or a holy book, STILL FUCKING MISSES THE FACT THAT evolution doesn't give one fuck about our personal desires, it only works because we fuck. It does not care how we get there.

I shall eagerly await for you to publish your book on the political ideology of "Evolutionism". I'm sure it will be more influential than anything written by Marx, Engels or Lenin.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote: Good, then

BrianShizzle37 wrote:

 

Good, then don't be an asshole when someone states fact and get angry at them....  (  waaaah ! )

 

      Brian, where's that "thick skin" you were telling me you had developed with age ?  Sounds like you're armor is cracking....

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

BrianShizzle37 wrote:

 

Good, then don't be an asshole when someone states fact and get angry at them....  (  waaaah ! )

 

      Brian, where's that "thick skin" you were telling me you had developed with age ?  Sounds like you're armor is cracking....

No sill have a "thick skn",  don't have to worry about that. That is how he sounds trying to defend religion. "Don't pick on religion".

I was bullied as a kid, as an adult I don't give a fuck. This is just text, no one has literal weapons aimed at each other like in a war or street gang. Everyone reading this will go to bed safe and in one piece.

Yes I am running scared because you equated me to Matt. HA!

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Quote:They are misunderstood

Quote:
They are misunderstood by many people, because most people haven't bothered reading their important writings. Instead they simply associate everything through the hysterical propaganda of the red scare

This is the same  problem I have with you as I do with theists.

You can take any religious idea and find good things in it, you can take an economic idea and find things in it. But when you talk about both of those institutions being human run, the potential for abuse is always there. Lennon and Marx I am sue had some appealing motifs in their writings that could be viewed as empathy to the human condition. But it is precisely because people blinding defended them without question that Stalin was able to create his own monopoly and that would have negated anything good you might find in their writings.

 

However, we do not live in a "one size fits all" species in our desires or political views. "It works for me" only means that person claims it works. Political and economic ideology NEVER can be plopped down as a "one size fits all" anymore that one could expect to make the entire world all Muslim or all Christian or all Hindu or all atheist.

Same problem with the "less government" mantra. Sounds nice on paper, but in reality it can only serve corporate interests right now and not protect the institution all classes are allowed to be a part of.

We are a diverse species, period, so there can never be a "perfect" or "one size fits all" solution.  I think it was Marx who had the concept "Each to the best of their ability according to their means". That does sound more like individualism and pluralism than anything the tea party nuts claim.

However this well intended concept also needs a check on it and from what I see as far as the difference between the west and more closed societies, is that we have the concept of bans on monopolies of power. However increasingly big money has run roughshod over the system, much like Stalin created a political monopoly out of the words of Lennon and Marx, regardless if someone thinks they were misunderstood.

Money is that it takes to create ANY sort of monopoly, be it political, religious OR business. Dangle a simplistic utopia in front of the masses, and you can lead them like sheep.

Ideologies in the form of politics and religion are bullshit. Evolution drives us to want resources. Ideology is the excuse human make to create dominance over others. Whatever good intent Marx or Lennon had was naive in assuming humans wont figure out how to game the system, much like big business has today.

The only workable solution, which will never be "perfect",  to maintain pluralism is to have checks and balances and to ban monopolies of ANY KIND OF POWER, precisely because all aspects of human life are based on the same range of actions both selfish and compassion.

 

 

 

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Quote:They are misunderstood

Quote:
They are misunderstood by many people, because most people haven't bothered reading their important writings. Instead they simply associate everything through the hysterical propaganda of the red scare

This is the same  problem I have with you as I do with theists.

You can take any religious idea and find good things in it, you can take an economic idea and find things in it. But when you talk about both of those institutions being human run, the potential for abuse is always there. Lennon and Marx I am sue had some appealing motifs in their writings that could be viewed as empathy to the human condition. But it is precisely because people blinding defended them without question that Stalin was able to create his own monopoly and that would have negated anything good you might find in their writings.

 

However, we do not live in a "one size fits all" species in our desires or political views. "It works for me" only means that person claims it works. Political and economic ideology NEVER can be plopped down as a "one size fits all" anymore that one could expect to make the entire world all Muslim or all Christian or all Hindu or all atheist.

Same problem with the "less government" mantra. Sounds nice on paper, but in reality it can only serve corporate interests right now and not protect the institution all classes are allowed to be a part of.

We are a diverse species, period, so there can never be a "perfect" or "one size fits all" solution.  I think it was Marx who had the concept "Each to the best of their ability according to their means". That does sound more like individualism and pluralism than anything the tea party nuts claim.

However this well intended concept also needs a check on it and from what I see as far as the difference between the west and more closed societies, is that we have the concept of bans on monopolies of power. However increasingly big money has run roughshod over the system, much like Stalin created a political monopoly out of the words of Lennon and Marx, regardless if someone thinks they were misunderstood.

Money is that it takes to create ANY sort of monopoly, be it political, religious OR business. Dangle a simplistic utopia in front of the masses, and you can lead them like sheep.

Ideologies in the form of politics and religion are bullshit. Evolution drives us to want resources. Ideology is the excuse human make to create dominance over others. Whatever good intent Marx or Lennon had was naive in assuming humans wont figure out how to game the system, much like big business has today.

The only workable solution, which will never be "perfect",  to maintain pluralism is to have checks and balances and to ban monopolies of ANY KIND OF POWER, precisely because all aspects of human life are based on the same range of actions both selfish and compassion.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:  Yes I am

Brian37 wrote:

 

 

Yes I am running scared because you equated me to Matt. HA!

      If the shoe fits...

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Brian37 wrote: Good, then

Brian37 wrote:

 

Good, then don't be an asshole when someone states fact and get angry at them....  (  waaaah ! )

 

 

                         compare to

 

 

brian37 wrote:
.....as an adult I don't give a fuck. This is just text...

 

 

  Then telling iwbiek how not to post proves you do give a fuck.  God you're an idiot.

 

 

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wikipedia Marxism wrote:Then

wikipedia Marxism wrote:
Then begins an era of social revolution."[9] These inefficiencies manifest themselves as social contradictions in society in the form of class struggle. Under the capitalist mode of production, this struggle materializes between the minority (the bourgeoisie) who own the means of production, and the vast majority of the population (the proletariat) who produce goods and services. Taking the idea that social change occurs because of the struggle between different classes within society who are under

Very empathetic to the concept of fighting bullies with money. Problem is that all it did was shift wealth to a political party and made the state the bully.

You can see this monopoly of power in other species. Deny resources to those under you to a big enough degree, it will cause survival to kick in and those without will take a shot at those with the resources.

Simply having a revolution does not mean the outcome will be any better just because it is different than what that population sought to escape. None of this addresses that simply winning a revolution whomever gets on top can claim a different economic view and create their own abuse, which is what Stalin did.

There will always be a range of things better suited to the private sector, and a range of things better suited to the regulation of government. Maximizing benefit isn't a bad goal, but ideology and religion tends to lean to group think which ignores our human evolution.

Oppressive governments still take money to maintain power. Political parties raise funds to gain power. Businesses need money to maintain or grow to get profits it is no different with religion. Allow any of those things to become too big and they can become abusive because humans are capable of being abusive.

Marx and Lennon were naive even if they were not wrong on every issue.

 

 

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wikipedia Marxism

wikipedia Marxism wrote:
Marxist analysis to the conclusion that capitalism exploits and oppresses the proletariat, which leads to a proletarian revolution.

Understandable but naive. Capitalism is not a form of government. Gadaffi was a billionaire who owned stock in GE, Saudi Arabia capitalizes off the sale of oil. China capitalizes off the sale of cheap goods and slave wages.

I agree with Marx that if you starve enough people to death they will eventually take a shot at you, much like in a troop of chimps when the alpha male is sick or weak or old eventually the subordinates will take a shot at them.

The best concept I have seen in law that reflects evolution is not "fuck you I got mine" or "nanny state", but a ban on monopolies of power. Never let ANYTHING public or private or religious or political get too big as to allow it to run roughshod over everything else.

 

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You are never going to get

You are never going to get rid of a diverse species with different interests so it is unrealistic to slap one idea onto a complex species. The only reasonable thing to do is to create a system where nothing gets too big to the point of abuse. The dark ages was an example of money maintaining the religious monopoly of power. North Korea has to have money to maintain its oppressive power. Iran's Imams who control their theocracy have to have money to maintain their power.

Private business ownership won't go away nor should it, but to say it cannot be abusive itself is absurd because, like I have consistently said, all institutions are the ideas of humans and are not separate from humans. The core goal of all of them is to seek resources and make excuses to keep power over those resources.

 

 

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wikipidia Marxism wrote:In a

wikipidia Marxism wrote:

In a socialist society private property in the means of production would be superseded by co-operative ownership. A socialist economy would not base production on the creation of private profits, but would instead base production and economic activity on the criteria of satisfying human needs

Henry Ford certainly saw no point in making a product his workers could not afford. I do think most of the climate in business today is exploitation instead of filling needs. Too much of most business today is about profit for profit's sake and not enough about investment and building and improving.

But again, well intended and naive. It unfortunately became for Stalin a oversimplified cliche and a utopian carrot he used to create his own political monopoly.

Which is what miffs me that when I point out pay disparity people flip out. Beyond wouldn't want to end the private sector but for some stupid reason thinks that would be my goal, which it is not.

I am empathetic to economic social justice but I would not be for ending the private sector.

 

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

Good, then don't be an asshole when someone states fact and get angry at them....  (  waaaah ! )

 

 

                         compare to

 

 

brian37 wrote:
.....as an adult I don't give a fuck. This is just text...

 

 

 

 

  Then telling iwbiek how not to post proves you do give a fuck.  God you're an idiot.

 

 

Don't call me an idiot idiot. See how that works?

Hello Mcfly this is the entire point of this. To demonstrate to Iwbiek  that his "good intent" of wanting go get along has nothing to do with his intent. but his tactic.

Here we are bitching at each other and no one is dying over it. I am quite sure both of you would love to strangle me if we were in person face to face. But, I think it is far better we let the words fly. That is the part he fails to take into account. I give a fuck in making my point, certainly. But I do not give a fuck because 7 billion people will not always only say nice things about each other, say like you calling me an idiot. I don't think religion or politics or economic views or even individuals should be free from being offended.

When all this crap started over my agreeing with Hitchens calling religion poison, long before all that, Iwbiek had that avatar which the entire time I didn't bring up although I thought that the iconic nature of it, as viewed by most of the west, would be an "AH HA" playing into the fears of the successfully sold motif of "godless communism" as a result of decades of the cold war.

 

And I have also argued with theists over atheism leading to evil communism, that religion NEVER left Russia otherwise when the Soviet Union fell the churches never would have popped back up. Russia never got rid of religion. It simply didn't allow anything to compete with the state itself. But religion was always there.

So when this kneejerk reaction to the use of the word "poison" came about, when you all stupidly confuse it as meaning individuals being bad when I am talking about it as a natural phenomena you cant get rid of but must treat as such to avoid abuse of power, you all flipped out. Religious people can do good, but it isn't religion doing it, it is our evolutionary trait of compassion doing it. Religion is a poison because it distracts us from that common trait and makes the label important rather than our common existence.

So he comes in trying to play hero. I finally had enough of his bullshit and brought up his avatar. Now he is typing in all caps just like I do.

Point being humans are going to get their button's pushed and feel anger when they get their buttons pushed. Wanting others to shut up in the face of having those buttons pushes IS PERFECTLY NATURAL, but totally unrealistic in a very messy reality.

Civility isn't in avoiding offending others, civility is how you react in the face of being offended. Otherwise if we got to arrest or murder everyone who pisses us off, we'd all be genocidal maniacs.

So when he tells me to shut up or I tell him to shut up, I certainly am NOT talking in a literal use of force via government law, just merely "you have no case you are full of shit".

Again, I love my well intended friends on the left but I think humans go about it the wrong way. I think there would be more peace if the worst anyone of us had to worry about was a "fuck you".

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:   Don't

Brian37 wrote:

 

 

 

Don't call me an idiot idiot. See how that works?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   What I see is an idiot whose posts seriously lack coherence and who tends to aimlessly ramble a lot.  See how that works ?

 

 

 

 

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

 

 

Don't call me an idiot idiot. See how that works?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   What I see is an idiot whose posts seriously lack coherence and who tends to aimlessly ramble a lot.  See how that works ?

 

 

 

 

What isn't coherent?

You guys, "You're being a dick"

Me, "So, that isn't the worst thing in the world". Seriously? Has anything I have said caused your arrest or murder? Don't you like calling me an idiot because that is what you think?

 

Bad is turning comic books into justifications for oppression. Bad is thinking anything if you just implement it will work on a diverse species. Which is why Dawkins blames Plato for all the fucked up world views be they religious or economic. It takes ideas and turns them into simplistic solutions that have no value in a complex reality. It distracts our species from the fact that we have ALWAYS had the same range of capacity to be BOTH cruel and compassionate.

Being offended is not the worst thing in the world. Having the ability to offend others is much more likely to keep powers in check. I hate how religion turns otherwise reasonable humans into tribal idiots.

And the more I argue with Beyond and Ibwiek on economics, rather than seeing it as diverse, are willing to treat their views as dogmatic as a religion itself.

So yea, I am a dick, now what?

 

 

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:     What

Brian37 wrote:

 What isn't coherent?

 

 

                                                                 Oh my fucking God , you're hilarious !!!

 

 

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wow, whole tsunamis of

wow, whole tsunamis of stupidities and non sequiturs. and the most amazing thing is, we've heard all of it before!

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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iwbiek wrote:wow, whole

iwbiek wrote:
wow, whole tsunamis of stupidities and non sequiturs. and the most amazing thing is, we've heard all of it before!

I am still a little bit confused about avatars of Marx=Stalin thus communism failed ?

Perhaps I am missing a connection to something somewhere.

I for one have never made the argument during all of my readings of Marx got misunderstood, however I do find an appalling number of people who have absolutely no clue as to what Marx was all about. Anymore than they realize just how deep of a scope that Trotsky had when it came to understanding European affairs or the fact that his writings are still studied today.

But then again, I am not sure how Nelson Mandela, Poison, Marx and Stalin all fit together in the context of one discussion everywhere anyway.

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harleysportster wrote:iwbiek

harleysportster wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
wow, whole tsunamis of stupidities and non sequiturs. and the most amazing thing is, we've heard all of it before!

I am still a little bit confused about avatars of Marx=Stalin thus communism failed ?

Perhaps I am missing a connection to something somewhere.

I for one have never made the argument during all of my readings of Marx got misunderstood, however I do find an appalling number of people who have absolutely no clue as to what Marx was all about. Anymore than they realize just how deep of a scope that Trotsky had when it came to understanding European affairs or the fact that his writings are still studied today.

But then again, I am not sure how Nelson Mandela, Poison, Marx and Stalin all fit together in the context of one discussion everywhere anyway.

the operative phrase there is "trying to understand." that's your fatal error when it comes to brian's rants.

marx didn't get misunderstood so much as he got interpreted, and, contrary to popular belief, lenin and his successors did not and do not have the monopoly on how marx can be understood. marxism-leninism, i.e. stalinism, was a perfectly valid interpretation of marxism. but, then again, so were the early policies of the british labour party. so was the american socialism of eugene debs. so is so-called european communism, the post-communist philosophical interpretations of jacques derrida, and the politics of the weimar social democrats, that still influence the face of european politics today.

the soviet union was a product of marxism, but what so many people refuse to recognize is that the benign social states of contemporary europe are as well, including the one i live in. these states would not exist today without the foundational work done by committed marxists like karl kautsky, rosa luxemburg, and karl liebknecht, all of whom publicly opposed lenin's interpretation of marx.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Oh boy, Wiki! Saves a lot of

Oh boy, Wiki! Saves a lot of reading time.

Brian37 wrote:

Very empathetic to the concept of fighting bullies with money. Problem is that all it did was shift wealth to a political party and made the state the bully.

Straight from the republican party handbook.

 

Brian37 wrote:

You can see this monopoly of power in other species. Deny resources to those under you to a big enough degree, it will cause survival to kick in and those without will take a shot at those with the resources.

Such as?

 

Brian37 wrote:

Simply having a revolution does not mean the outcome will be any better just because it is different than what that population sought to escape. None of this addresses that simply winning a revolution whomever gets on top can claim a different economic view and create their own abuse, which is what Stalin did.

Glad we have you to point out Stalin's mistakes.

 

Brian37 wrote:

There will always be a range of things better suited to the private sector, and a range of things better suited to the regulation of government. Maximizing benefit isn't a bad goal, but ideology and religion tends to lean to group think which ignores our human evolution.

Ah yes, a "range". I like ranges, good places to shoot your guns.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Oppressive governments still take money to maintain power. Political parties raise funds to gain power. Businesses need money to maintain or grow to get profits it is no different with religion. Allow any of those things to become too big and they can become abusive because humans are capable of being abusive.

So small things can't be abusive?

 

Brian37 wrote:

Marx and Lennon were naive even if they were not wrong on every issue.

Lol.

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iwbiek wrote: the operative

iwbiek wrote:
the operative phrase there is "trying to understand." that's your fatal error when it comes to brian's rants.

Laughing out loud

 

iwbiek wrote:

marx didn't get misunderstood so much as he got interpreted, and, contrary to popular belief, lenin and his successors did not and do not have the monopoly on how marx can be understood. marxism-leninism, i.e. stalinism, was a perfectly valid interpretation of marxism. but, then again, so were the early policies of the british labour party. so was the american socialism of eugene debs. so is so-called european communism, the post-communist philosophical interpretations of jacques derrida, and the politics of the weimar social democrats, that still influence the face of european politics today. the soviet union was a product of marxism, but what so many people refuse to recognize is that the benign social states of contemporary europe are as well, including the one i live in. these states would not exist today without the foundational work done by committed marxists like karl kautsky, rosa luxemburg, and karl liebknecht, all of whom publicly opposed lenin's interpretation of marx.

The complexities of Karl Marx are a bit more than my own base understanding of the man and I have nowhere near read all of his works yet.

While it is tempting for many people to do a "one size fits all" approach to categorizing what the Soviet Union was and Stalin, It just does not work like that. No more than the "all or nothing" approach to virtually any understanding of things.

Really to understand Stalin at all, from my perspective that I shared in another thread, one really has to have a bit of grasp on Russian Pre-Soviet history. (Now that is just my opinion and experience on it).

When you look at it from the perspective that Russia and the Tsarism was pretty much still running a Medieval type of world in the 19th century, one can get a better understanding of the motives behind Lenin and the Bolsheviks. And mine is very limited at the moment, but that will change.

TRUTH to be told, Marx actually never could have foreseen that the place of proletarian revolution would have been possible in Russia, in fact, he seemed to think that Russia would have been the last place that it could have taken root. At least, that is what the books I have read and the cartoon cat on the motorcycle is stating as an opinion anyway.

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never mind the fact that the

never mind the fact that the soviet union was such a unique and effective creature precisely because the state was impotent. the state is far more powerful in any liberal, democratic society than in a marxist-leninist society. totalitarianism can only work when state, constitution, legislation, and even the regular coercive organs (police, military) are neutered by party rule. this happened in nazi germany as well: the state was an empty shell.

if i hear one more person say, in earnest, that the soviet union was "statist" or forced "state-worship" on people, i'll fucking puke. the state is a bourgeois-democratic creation and ends where bourgeois democracy ends, period.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Brian37 wrote:

Simply having a revolution does not mean the outcome will be any better just because it is different than what that population sought to escape. None of this addresses that simply winning a revolution whomever gets on top can claim a different economic view and create their own abuse, which is what Stalin did.

Glad we have you to point out Stalin's mistakes.

Like the man or not, Stalin DID take a basically Medieval peasant society and elevated it to a formidable power that could shake the boots of any rival. But the cost came at a terrible price.

 

 

 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Brian37 wrote:wikipedia

Brian37 wrote:

wikipedia Marxism wrote:
Marxist analysis to the conclusion that capitalism exploits and oppresses the proletariat, which leads to a proletarian revolution.

Understandable but naive.

Lol, I'm sorry, every time you say "naive" I giggle.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Capitalism is not a form of government.

Wow, you said something accurate! Although irrelevant.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Gadaffi was a billionaire who owned stock in GE, Saudi Arabia capitalizes off the sale of oil. China capitalizes off the sale of cheap goods and slave wages.

Yes, and none of those things = capitalism. Can you identify the difference between a socialist system and a capitalist system?

 

Brian37 wrote:

I agree with Marx that if you starve enough people to death they will eventually take a shot at you, much like in a troop of chimps when the alpha male is sick or weak or old eventually the subordinates will take a shot at them.

That isn't what Marx said. Are you suggesting we should copy chimps?

 

Brian37 wrote:

The best concept I have seen in law that reflects evolution is not "fuck you I got mine" or "nanny state", but a ban on monopolies of power. Never let ANYTHING public or private or religious or political get too big as to allow it to run roughshod over everything else.

Deep.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

There will always be a range of things better suited to the private sector, and a range of things better suited to the regulation of government. Maximizing benefit isn't a bad goal, but ideology and religion tends to lean to group think which ignores our human evolution.

Ah yes, a "range". I like ranges, good places to shoot your guns.

 

I  would actually guess that groupthink is a product of evolution rather than ignoring it ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Brian37 wrote:Henry Ford

Brian37 wrote:

Henry Ford certainly saw no point in making a product his workers could not afford. I do think most of the climate in business today is exploitation instead of filling needs. Too much of most business today is about profit for profit's sake and not enough about investment and building and improving.

Everything Ford did was for profit. You understand Ford as much as you understand Marx.

 

Brian37 wrote:

But again, well intended and naive. It unfortunately became for Stalin a oversimplified cliche and a utopian carrot he used to create his own political monopoly.

Lol.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Which is what miffs me that when I point out pay disparity people flip out. Beyond wouldn't want to end the private sector but for some stupid reason thinks that would be my goal, which it is not.

I am empathetic to economic social justice but I would not be for ending the private sector.

No, your arguments would be far more sensible if you were for ending the private sector. Given a relatively free capitalist system, large inequalities will exist because it must exist for the system to work optimally. If your sole goal is income equality, capitalism is a terrible economic system to choose.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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harleysportster wrote:Beyond

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Brian37 wrote:

Simply having a revolution does not mean the outcome will be any better just because it is different than what that population sought to escape. None of this addresses that simply winning a revolution whomever gets on top can claim a different economic view and create their own abuse, which is what Stalin did.

Glad we have you to point out Stalin's mistakes.

Like the man or not, Stalin DID take a basically Medieval peasant society and elevated it to a formidable power that could shake the boots of any rival. But the cost came at a terrible price.

True. Hitler did much the same thing in Germany taking a country that had collapsed and turned it into one of the leading producers in the world. The benefit of authoritarian structures is that they can be extremely good at getting things done since fewer people make the decisions. That is why it is laughable to claim it doesn't work, or is "naive" (giggle). Whether a system works well is ultimately a subjective thing that depends on your ultimate goal or your ideal.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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harleysportster wrote:The

harleysportster wrote:
The complexities of Karl Marx are a bit more than my own base understanding of the man and I have nowhere near read all of his works yet.



lol don't beat yourself up. neither have i.


harleysportster wrote:
Really to understand Stalin at all, from my perspective that I shared in another thread, one really has to have a bit of grasp on Russian Pre-Soviet history. (Now that is just my opinion and experience on it).



you're absolutely right, of course. regardless of how convinced a marxist stalin was or wasn't, one of the most frustrating things about marx is that, even though he explained 19th century capitalism in minute detail, he was extremely reticent about what a socialist and communist society should look like. there is no model in marx of either revolution or consolidation, so the russians could only improvise with what they knew.


it's well known that stalin's hero was ivan the terrible, and he actually set about remaking his image, even enlisting one of russia's greatest filmmakers (i think it was eisenstein) to make a revisionist film about the tsar.


harleysortster wrote:
When you look at it from the perspective that Russia and the Tsarism was pretty much still running a Medieval type of world in the 19th century, one can get a better understanding of the motives behind Lenin and the Bolsheviks.{/quote]


that's exactly right, and one of the easiest traps for the casual or new reader of history to fall into is viewing the historical personalities and events of other, often radically different cultures through the lens of our own culture and its history. this fallacy is precisely the reason why the US has made such a clusterfuck in iraq.


harleysportster wrote:
TRUTH to be told, Marx actually never could have foreseen that the place of proletarian revolution would have been possible in Russia, in fact, he seemed to think that Russia would have been the last place that it could have taken root. At least, that is what the books I have read and the cartoon cat on the motorcycle is stating as an opinion anyway.



that's absolutely correct, and we have letters from marx (and engels too, i believe) to aspiring 19th century russian socialist revolutionaries to that effect.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Beyond Saving wrote:power

Beyond Saving wrote:
Hitler did much the same thing in Germany taking a country that had collapsed and turned it into one of the leading producers in the world.



well, but to be fair to stalin, in hitler's case, the infrastructure was already in place, just not being used (or used at minimum capacity) because of the crippling sanctions of the treaty of versailles. basically it was a matter of throwing the switches again to get germany up and running, whereas stalin truly started with next to nothing.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson