If anyone thinks this is sustainable or good for society, they are out of their mind.

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If anyone thinks this is sustainable or good for society, they are out of their mind.

But notice that this guy also says "socialism doesn't work". And I agree, so please don't even go there in your responses.

 

http://www.utrend.tv/v/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact/

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You can't say socialism

You can't say socialism can't work when it has never failed to work. Especially when you quantify your baseless assertion with the ridiculous claim that you need capitalism to provide motivation. You're both idiots.

Yeah, I went there.

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Vastet wrote:You can't say

Vastet wrote:
You can't say socialism can't work when it has never failed to work. Especially when you quantify your baseless assertion with the ridiculous claim that you need capitalism to provide motivation. You're both idiots. Yeah, I went there.

HELLO McFly, "capitalism" is not a form of government. Gadaffi was a billionaire who owned stock in GE. Saudi Arabia makes money selling oil. China makes money by selling cheap crap with slave wages.

 

Human greed is the motivation. I am not nor will ever be against private business ownership. I am against abuse of power and monopolies of power.

 

This gap he is talking about and I agree with is a HUGE problem. Japan has a range of income too, but they have no poverty WHY? Japan has fry cooks and janitors too? Want to guess what their homeless rate is compared to America?

 

There IS wealth distribution going on, just not in the direction the Koch brothers would have you believe.

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Hey dumbass, I never said

Hey dumbass, I never said capitalism was a form of government. I didn't even mention capitalism. Go fuck yourself.

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Vastet wrote:Hey dumbass, I

Vastet wrote:
Hey dumbass, I never said capitalism was a form of government. I didn't even mention capitalism. Go fuck yourself.

Ok fine, since you don't agree with my opinions please tell me how so many other people, who do agree with HIM are wrong?

Explain to me how other countries who don't have our pay disparity have less problems overall.

 

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Brian37 wrote:But notice

Brian37 wrote:

But notice that this guy also says "socialism doesn't work". And I agree, so please don't even go there in your responses.

Socialism has worked several places around the world. Most notably, it is currently working quite well in China. Vietnam and Cuba also have socialist systems that have been operating for quite some time. In the past, Germany became the most dominant economy in the world under socialism, if it wasn't for losing WW2, it probably would have remained at least competitive with the US.

The idiot you linked to does not even know the meaning of socialism. Socialism /= dividing all the assets in a country equally among the people. Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with wealth distribution, it has to do with determining who owns the means of production and how new means of production are created. While government ownership of businesses has effects on how wealth is distributed, the distribution of wealth is not a primary characteristic of socialism and two socialist countries can have radically different wealth gaps.

The idiot also is completely ignorant of how poverty is calculated. Poverty is a relative calculation, which is why someone living in "poverty" in the US can have a 500 square foot apartment with cable television, air conditioning and a smart phone, while someone who is above the poverty line in Mexico enjoys none of those things. If you simply gave everyone below the poverty line enough money to be above it, they would not be richer in the real sense of being able to purchase more things. Why? Because inflation would kick in due to the higher demand for all the new things the poor wanted to buy making them more expensive and thus as equally unattainable as before you distributed the money.  

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Again, dumbass, I never said

Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Hey dumbass, I never said capitalism was a form of government. I didn't even mention capitalism. Go fuck yourself.

Ok fine, since you don't agree with my opinions please tell me how so many other people, who do agree with HIM are wrong?

Explain to me how other countries who don't have our pay disparity have less problems overall.

 

Again, dumbass, I never said he was wrong that there is a disparity, nor that either of you were wrong in that it is unsustainable.

I said you're both idiots for claiming socialism can't work. Period.

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Brian37 wrote:HELLO McFly,

Brian37 wrote:

HELLO McFly, "capitalism" is not a form of government. Gadaffi was a billionaire who owned stock in GE. Saudi Arabia makes money selling oil. China makes money by selling cheap crap with slave wages.

Yeah, and owning GE stock or selling things does not make an economic system capitalist. ALL monetary based economic systems involve money, buying and selling- including socialism. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Human greed is the motivation. I am not nor will ever be against private business ownership. I am against abuse of power and monopolies of power.

You wouldn't know a monopoly if it bitch slapped you in the face.

 

Brian37 wrote:

This gap he is talking about and I agree with is a HUGE problem. Japan has a range of income too, but they have no poverty WHY? Japan has fry cooks and janitors too? Want to guess what their homeless rate is compared to America?

Complete bullshit. Japan has a poverty rate that is almost identical to the US poverty rate, except it is worse because the cost of living in Japan is substantially higher than the cost of living throughout most of the US, so in terms of comparable purchasing power Japan has a much worse poverty rate. The government lied about it for years, but this pesky thing called the Internet spread the real stories and people found out that for years the government was tracking the poverty rate and not admitting it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/world/asia/22poverty.html

 

Brian37 wrote:

There IS wealth distribution going on, just not in the direction the Koch brothers would have you believe.

Well I encouraged you to get a higher paying job. You told me you don't want one. Should I force you to get one?

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Vastet wrote:Brian37

Vastet wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Hey dumbass, I never said capitalism was a form of government. I didn't even mention capitalism. Go fuck yourself.

Ok fine, since you don't agree with my opinions please tell me how so many other people, who do agree with HIM are wrong?

Explain to me how other countries who don't have our pay disparity have less problems overall.

 

Again, dumbass, I never said he was wrong that there is a disparity, nor that either of you were wrong in that it is unsustainable. I said you're both idiots for claiming socialism can't work. Period.

 

Ok so now we are ACTUALLY on the same page. I think you miss his point and my point which was the fear of the right in their stereotype of "STALIN" "socialism."

 

That is what I always argue. You cant have everyone being paid the same, all poor or all rich,  and I agree. Stalin was merely a power grab. I think you missed our meaning.

 

GAP GAP GAP.......That is our issue. I often explain it like a fish tank. The temperature while flux somewhat, but too high or too low the fish die. You cant have a gap so big otherwise the entire population gets affected. And as long as money equals power a gap big enough will lead to monopolies of power.

 

 

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The idea that socialism

The idea that socialism requires everyone to receive exactly the same piece of the pie is ridiculous. In fact, it would be impossible to achieve.

And Stalin wasn't just a power grab. Attempting to distill hundreds of years of Russian societal movements and revolutions culminating in the Soviet Union into a single sentence is shockingly naive.

Regarding the gap between classes, it always sorts itself out eventually. Best buy a few guns, because it is always revolution that spearheads the equality shift. Never are the rich quietly convinced to spread the wealth being hoarded. It always comes to spilling blood. And it always starts when the number of people who can't afford food outweigh the number of people who can.

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Vastet wrote:The idea that

Vastet wrote:
The idea that socialism requires everyone to receive exactly the same piece of the pie is ridiculous. In fact, it would be impossible to achieve. And Stalin wasn't just a power grab. Attempting to distill hundreds of years of Russian societal movements and revolutions culminating in the Soviet Union into a single sentence is shockingly naive. Regarding the gap between classes, it always sorts itself out eventually. Best buy a few guns, because it is always revolution that spearheads the equality shift. Never are the rich quietly convinced to spread the wealth being hoarded. It always comes to spilling blood. And it always starts when the number of people who can't afford food outweigh the number of people who can.

 

I agree. "social" is actually what our species is. I have argued, as so the guy pointing out the gap issue, in using the term "socialism" was referring to Stalin's monopoly of power and propaganda use of the word.

The term "social security" has the word "social" in it. I doubt you can find any republicans/libertarians or tea party to give up their "social security" checks. Ayn Rand railed against the "nanny state" but never gave up her "social security".

 

 

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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with wealth distribution, it has to do with determining who owns the means of production and how new means of production are created.

A+++++++

you're the first person i've seen, in the seven years or so i've been debating these issues over the internet, who actually understands that.  i'm floored.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Beyond Saving

iwbiek wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with wealth distribution, it has to do with determining who owns the means of production and how new means of production are created.

A+++++++

you're the first person i've seen, in the seven years or so i've been debating these issues over the internet, who actually understands that.  i'm floored.

 

ETTTT,

 

Nice try. Here is the problem with Beyond's argument. I said we are social creatures, I never claimed that when we get together that what we do collectively will be good for everyone.

 

Beyond is has the same clinical sociopath mentality of "if I write it down, it is moral, therefore legal". "Sucks to be you" is the new business model. It was not always that way and does not have to be that way.

 

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Brian37 wrote: Nice try.

Brian37 wrote:

 

Nice try. Here is the problem with Beyond's argument. I said we are social creatures, I never claimed that when we get together that what we do collectively will be good for everyone.

 

Beyond is has the same clinical sociopath mentality of "if I write it down, it is moral, therefore legal". "Sucks to be you" is the new business model. It was not always that way and does not have to be that way.

 

why the fuck do you talk about shit the person you're addressing is not talking about?

i said NOOOOOOTHING about beyond's "argument."  i said he seems to be the ONLY person i've ever encountered on the internet who understand what socialism IS.  that's ALL i said.

now, if you think he doesn't understand what socialism is, then say so.  but that would mean you're using a definition of "socialism" that nobody in the 200+ year history of the theory has ever used.  in other words, your own definition.  not that that would surprise me, since you already do that with "religion."

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

Nice try. Here is the problem with Beyond's argument. I said we are social creatures, I never claimed that when we get together that what we do collectively will be good for everyone.

 

Beyond is has the same clinical sociopath mentality of "if I write it down, it is moral, therefore legal". "Sucks to be you" is the new business model. It was not always that way and does not have to be that way.

 

why the fuck do you talk about shit the person you're addressing is not talking about?

i said NOOOOOOTHING about beyond's "argument."  i said he seems to be the ONLY person i've ever encountered on the internet who understand what socialism IS.  that's ALL i said.

now, if you think he doesn't understand what socialism is, then say so.  but that would mean you're using a definition of "socialism" that nobody in the 200+ year history of the theory has ever used.  in other words, your own definition.  not that that would surprise me, since you already do that with "religion."

HA, he's got your rapped around his finger doesn't he.

No no no, I would be for "socialism" in the right context. But Beyond's "fuck you" Ayn Rand "let them eat cake" arguments he spews would lead to the very monopoly of power all sane humans should not want to advocate.

Beyond wants freedom, in the same way Somalia's war lords exploit the country.

 

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Brian37 wrote: HA, he's got

Brian37 wrote:

 

HA, he's got your rapped around his finger doesn't he.

 

well, if that entails me commending someone for understanding that socialist theory is based on the means of production, then fine.

don't get butthurt that he actually has an intellectual grasp of things that are completely over your tiny head.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

HA, he's got your rapped around his finger doesn't he.

 

well, if that entails me commending someone for understanding that socialist theory is based on the means of production, then fine.

don't get butthurt that he actually has an intellectual grasp of things that are completely over your tiny head.

 

Like believing "its all good" is a utopian tactic? It sucks so bad when blacks were slaves bothered to say " no it's not all good" And damn Malala for saying "fuck your sexist attitude my fellow Muslims, I want an education".

 

HUMANS have to produce to create means of survival. NO SHIT. Tactic is where politics and religion distort that common reality.

His attitude appeals to the greedy side of humanity. My attitude is do your own thing without exploiting others.

 

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BrianShizzle37 wrote:HA,

BrianShizzle37 wrote:

HA, he's got your rapped around his finger doesn't he.

 

     And you've let Beyond get inside your head.   He broke no laws or cheated anyone to create his success. He made something out of his life and you didn't.  He used his brain and his talents to create wealth, while you have descended to the very bottom.  You resent him and you have absolutely no power to stop him.  No wonder it's driving you nuts.

 

BrianShizzle wrote:
No no no, I would be for "socialism" in the right context. But Beyond's "fuck you" Ayn Rand "let them eat cake" arguments he spews would lead to the very monopoly of power all sane humans should not want to advocate.

Beyond wants freedom, in the same way Somalia's war lords exploit the country.

 

 

   Beyond is a big meanie !

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

BrianShizzle37 wrote:

HA, he's got your rapped around his finger doesn't he.

 

     And you've let Beyond get inside your head.   He broke no laws or cheated anyone to create his success. He made something out of his life and you didn't.  He used his brain and his talents to create wealth, while you have descended to the very bottom.  You resent him and you have absolutely no power to stop him.  No wonder it's driving you nuts.

 

BrianShizzle wrote:
No no no, I would be for "socialism" in the right context. But Beyond's "fuck you" Ayn Rand "let them eat cake" arguments he spews would lead to the very monopoly of power all sane humans should not want to advocate.

Beyond wants freedom, in the same way Somalia's war lords exploit the country.

 

 

   Beyond is a big meanie !

 

He may not have broken any laws AS WRITTEN. But legal and moral are two completely different things. The God of the bible had laws too, but how much say do humans have?

Beyond advocates what works for him, nothing more. If you have money you write the laws.

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Brian37 wrote:He may not

Brian37 wrote:

He may not have broken any laws AS WRITTEN. But legal and moral are two completely different things. The God of the bible had laws too, but how much say do humans have?

What great moral standard did I break? (Pretend for a moment that I give half a shit about offending your moral standard.)

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:iwbiek

Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

Nice try. Here is the problem with Beyond's argument. I said we are social creatures, I never claimed that when we get together that what we do collectively will be good for everyone.

 

Beyond is has the same clinical sociopath mentality of "if I write it down, it is moral, therefore legal". "Sucks to be you" is the new business model. It was not always that way and does not have to be that way.

 

why the fuck do you talk about shit the person you're addressing is not talking about?

i said NOOOOOOTHING about beyond's "argument."  i said he seems to be the ONLY person i've ever encountered on the internet who understand what socialism IS.  that's ALL i said.

now, if you think he doesn't understand what socialism is, then say so.  but that would mean you're using a definition of "socialism" that nobody in the 200+ year history of the theory has ever used.  in other words, your own definition.  not that that would surprise me, since you already do that with "religion."

HA, he's got your rapped around his finger doesn't he.

No no no, I would be for "socialism" in the right context. But Beyond's "fuck you" Ayn Rand "let them eat cake" arguments he spews would lead to the very monopoly of power all sane humans should not want to advocate.

Lol, the point is that even though iwbiek and I hold radically different views of what type of economic system is preferable, we can still respect that the other arrived at their opinion through intelligent, educated and well informed thought. There isn't one "right" answer and two intelligent people can come to radically different conclusions because they might have different goals or values.

Your views on the other hand seem to be completely uninformed and your specific policy preferences are at odds with the principles you claim to hold. You routinely demonstrate that you do not understand the views you are opposed to and instead simplify it to a completely ridiculous position that no one holds. Instead of trying to understand your oppositions position, you turn to hyperbolic rhetoric that is intellectually vacant and intentionally misrepresents the views of your opponent. While such rhetoric can be effective in a political campaign, it seems rather pointless here since no one here is running for election.

And then you go and make an ignorant statement which makes my point exactly.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond wants freedom, in the same way Somalia's war lords exploit the country.

When exactly was Somalia ever a libertarian country?

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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iwbiek wrote:Beyond Saving

iwbiek wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with wealth distribution, it has to do with determining who owns the means of production and how new means of production are created.

A+++++++

you're the first person i've seen, in the seven years or so i've been debating these issues over the internet, who actually understands that.  i'm floored.

I'm hurt. Sad

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Vastet wrote:iwbiek

Vastet wrote:
iwbiek wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with wealth distribution, it has to do with determining who owns the means of production and how new means of production are created.

A+++++++

you're the first person i've seen, in the seven years or so i've been debating these issues over the internet, who actually understands that.  i'm floored.

I'm hurt. Sad

 

lol, that's why i qualified it with i've seen.  i'm sure others have understood it, but beyond is the first i've seen who's come out and said it with no prompting.

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Beyond Saving wrote: Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

But notice that this guy also says "socialism doesn't work". And I agree, so please don't even go there in your responses.

Socialism has worked several places around the world. Most notably, it is currently working quite well in China.

What worked in China was the one child policy. The reduction in the extreme populaiton preasures has lead to their rise in wealth, while USA's reward for welfare babies and tolerance of illigal immigration has increased population preasures(low wages, high prices). So China rises while the USA falls.

You can't greatly reduce poverty unless you greatly reduce population preasures. The 'socialism' the left in the USA proposes in that responsible people should pay the bills so irresponsible can pop out as many irresponisble offspring as they please, which is why is will just lead to more poverty.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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We should create a new forum

We should create a new forum area called "Brian37's Irrationalities."  In that section, you say something and he goes off on something completely unrelated to your point, dodges your viewpoints and eats monkey heads while listening to shitty ABBA songs.

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We'd have to make one for

We'd have to make one for EXC too. He's been doing it a lot longer than Brian.

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Sage_Override wrote:We

Sage_Override wrote:

We should create a new forum area called "Brian37's Irrationalities."  In that section, you say something and he goes off on something completely unrelated to your point, dodges your viewpoints and eats monkey heads while listening to shitty ABBA songs.

 

                        

Yes Brian deserves his own exclusive forum.  Excellent idea.  Let him keep his drama queen antics corralled in one place and there he can reign supreme and prattle on like Chicken Little whining about the evil theists.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.