How crime in Brazil is handled

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How crime in Brazil is handled

I believe, that in many ways, this procedure for handling criminals is awesome.

I'm sure it does nothing to stop crime in Brazil, but the way it was handled is a 180 from the way things happen here in the States.

If this were to happen in America, the cop would have been suspended and there would be a big legal case of "was deadly force needed?", blah blah.

Notice later in the video how they don't give first aid to the criminal? and they let the victim verbally thrash the punk?

Yeah, it could have been "the real owner was just trying to get his bike back, but the cop shot the wrong guy"... but not in this case. Kudos to the cop.

 

 


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Yeah, real brilliant. Our

Yeah, real brilliant. Our crime rates are too low, lets start copying the law enforcement of a country with 5 times the problems we have. It is always a good idea to copy shit that is an utter failure. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: Our

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Our crime rates are too low, lets start copying the law enforcement of a country with 5 times the problems we have.

According to some, Brazil has much more crime and much more violence than we currently have.

In addition to that, much higher corruption than we do as well.

http://crimcast.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/when-police-corruption-is-normal-brazils-criminal-justice-challenge/

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/12/04/uk-brazil-police-idUKBRE8B316A20121204

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/brazil/110214/police-corruption

 

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Beyond Saving wrote:Yeah,

Beyond Saving wrote:

Yeah, real brilliant. Our crime rates are too low, lets start copying the law enforcement of a country with 5 times the problems we have. It is always a good idea to copy shit that is an utter failure. 

Brian is that you?


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           digital, I admit that it is emotionally satisfying to see a criminal get his comeuppance.    Totally.

 

    I believe our American justice system is somewhat flawed ( in many ways ) and our US max-security prisons should be modeled after some of the more high security Russian prisons.     For prisoners to"misbehave" in one of the prison / penal colonies is like sending a message to prison staff that you would like to be beaten to a bloody pulp and thrown back into your cell.  They don't fuck around with trouble makers and prison is meant to be degrading and dreadful.  I guess a nation that used to operate gulags knows all about making incarceration an unpleasant experience.

 

    I read in the newspaper some months ago that down in Mexico a young woman had been raped and murdered by some evil teenager.  The villagers exacted justice by placing the killer into the bottom of the open grave and placing the victim's casket on top of him and burying him alive.  Maybe Islam is replacing Catholicism in Mexico ?

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This is one time I agree

This is one time I agree with Beyond. Just watched the video. The cop seems to have not announced himself and simply shot the guy. That is not the type of police force I want to live under. The thief did not draw on the cop nor make any motion to the cop as if to draw a gun on him. The thief had to put the gun in his pants and had both hands on the handle bars, at that point there was no reason to shoot him.

 

I'll be happy to argue with Beyond about how to improve economic conditions that would reduce crime, but I do not want cops that shoot first like Dirty Harry nor do I want to live in a vigilante society. Understanding the emotions of having a gun stuck in your face, does not mean those who go after criminals should have no oversight or training and simply act on their emotions.

 

 

 

 

 

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 

Something is preventing me from posting in the normal format.  

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

         

 

    I believe our American justice system is somewhat flawed ( in many ways ) and our US max-security prisons should be modeled after some of the more high security Russian prisons.     For prisoners to"misbehave" in one of the prison / penal colonies is like sending a message to prison staff that you would like to be beaten to a bloody pulp and thrown back into your cell.  They don't fuck around with trouble makers and prison is meant to be degrading and dreadful.  I guess a nation that used to operate gulags knows all about making incarceration an unpleasant experience.

 

I agree with much of what your saying here and while I think that victimless crimes should more or less be abolished, I would be all for stricter and much harsher sentences on rapists, thieves, child molesters, armed robbers, and all other violent offenses.

However, if the stories of any of the Latinos and South Americans that I work with are to be believed, it would seem that their current justice system is comprised of mainly corruption, brutality and terror.

For instance, routine traffic stops in Mexico, (according to one man's story) could involve getting badly beaten and tossed into jail for simply not bribing a cop to leave you alone.

Now as to how true that is, I would not be able to say.

I do know of a guy that had similar stories with the cops of New Orleans.  In fact more than one person had stated that at one time, if you saw blue lights and were speeding, safest trip  was to simply drive to the nearest police station with them in tow. Safer that way. (Now of course, I have no evidence to back the story up one way or the other, it could be an exaggeration to fool the Yankee from New Jersey).

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Sure, shooting scumbags

Sure, shooting scumbags might make you feel better, but in practice desperate people are extremely dangerous. If a criminal believes that they are going to be shot on sight, they are going to be far more likely to use lethal force themselves. If they believe that risking their own life is better than being in prison, they will be more violent resisting arrest putting the police and civilians at risk. When you push a person into a corner and they don't think they have a way out they will react violently.

Vengeance style law enforcement causes the sort of all out warfare that you see in Rio De Janeiro where organized gangs of criminals shoot police on sight and civilians refuse to call police out of fear of reprisal. Even the most basic criminal who starts stealing out of sheer desperation ends up becoming violent out of necessity. We see a smaller scale version of this problem in the US with our "war on drugs" where people convicted of minor drug crimes end up being forced into more serious crimes out of desperation when they can't get a job, need protection in prison and end up being arrested multiple times because they can't kick their habit.

Add in the sheer danger of corruption when you allow police to shoot and don't heavily criticize it, and you have a recipe for 3rd world crime rates. And I sure as hell don't want to live in a country like that just to feel better about a couple of scumbags being shot.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 Brazil is too pussified to

 Brazil is too pussified to even have a death penalty. You must always have a death penalty for the worst of the worst!

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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

 Brazil is too pussified to even have a death penalty. You must always have a death penalty for the worst of the worst!

 

  But death is looked upon as a release by some prisoners.  A needle in the arm and then it's sleepy time. Big deal.

   I used to feel like you do but to me the most appropriate response to the "worst of the worst"  is to keep them alive and make them endure a living hell to the end of their natural life.  That's why I referenced the Russian prisons where just such brutal treatment is meted out.  Death is welcome to most prisoners but it never arrives.

 

                         Russian prison brutality:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcCxq32yGE

                                                                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJn7YYkpYdo

 

   All the documentaries about the worst prisons in the world all have the same pathetic theme, the prisoners run the prison and mayhem is allowed to flourish.   In Russian prisons none of that exists.   Prisoners will fucking comply with their rules or they will be made to suffer greatly.  The prisoners are not looked upon as humans but as degenerates who only deserve to be ground down into mush.  That is a sentence whose degree of suffering far exceeds anything a death penalty could ever impose.

 

 

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

           digital, I admit that it is emotionally satisfying to see a criminal get his comeuppance.    Totally.

    I believe our American justice system is somewhat flawed ( in many ways ) and our US max-security prisons should be modeled after some of the more high security Russian prisons.     For prisoners to"misbehave" in one of the prison / penal colonies is like sending a message to prison staff that you would like to be beaten to a bloody pulp and thrown back into your cell.  They don't fuck around with trouble makers and prison is meant to be degrading and dreadful.  I guess a nation that used to operate gulags knows all about making incarceration an unpleasant experience.

    I read in the newspaper some months ago that down in Mexico a young woman had been raped and murdered by some evil teenager.  The villagers exacted justice by placing the killer into the bottom of the open grave and placing the victim's casket on top of him and burying him alive.  Maybe Islam is replacing Catholicism in Mexico ?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. I suspect it would have ended differently if he didn't have a gun/weapon. I also believe that Brazil is in the top 10 worst countries for homicide, so the level of crime and corruption is extremely high.

As for prisons, I agree too. The prisons here are too liberal and I'd take away every single right of the murderers, rapists, drug dealers, gang members.

I'd put them two to a cell. No television. No papers. No weight sets. No phones. I dislike that they have so many special privileges and yet they take away so much from the public; from individuals; from victims. Leg and arm irons, 27/7.

I would agree to what the villages did; I could feel the anger of a small town like that dealing with a violent person.


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Brian37 wrote:This is one

Brian37 wrote:

This is one time I agree with Beyond. Just watched the video. The cop seems to have not announced himself and simply shot the guy. That is not the type of police force I want to live under. The thief did not draw on the cop nor make any motion to the cop as if to draw a gun on him. The thief had to put the gun in his pants and had both hands on the handle bars, at that point there was no reason to shoot him.

 I'll be happy to argue with Beyond about how to improve economic conditions that would reduce crime, but I do not want cops that shoot first like Dirty Harry nor do I want to live in a vigilante society. Understanding the emotions of having a gun stuck in your face, does not mean those who go after criminals should have no oversight or training and simply act on their emotions.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of the video.

If you stop motion it you can see that the cop is out of the car as the last car goes by, he says something (I'll assume, "get down or hands up&quotEye-wink but the kid has his hands down by his waist. I'll assume crime in San Paulo is so bad that it has become "shoot first ask later".

The kid got shot and he deserved it. He used a gun to steal from another. I can understand he might have been beaten or abused, dragged in to a gang against his will, trying to make a living, blah blah blah. Too bad so sad. There are billions of other people having a tough time and they "DON'T ROB PEOPLE AT GUN POINT".

 


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

This is one time I agree with Beyond. Just watched the video. The cop seems to have not announced himself and simply shot the guy. That is not the type of police force I want to live under. The thief did not draw on the cop nor make any motion to the cop as if to draw a gun on him. The thief had to put the gun in his pants and had both hands on the handle bars, at that point there was no reason to shoot him.

 I'll be happy to argue with Beyond about how to improve economic conditions that would reduce crime, but I do not want cops that shoot first like Dirty Harry nor do I want to live in a vigilante society. Understanding the emotions of having a gun stuck in your face, does not mean those who go after criminals should have no oversight or training and simply act on their emotions.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of the video.

If you stop motion it you can see that the cop is out of the car as the last car goes by, he says something (I'll assume, "get down or hands up&quotEye-wink but the kid has his hands down by his waist. I'll assume crime in San Paulo is so bad that it has become "shoot first ask later".

The kid got shot and he deserved it. He used a gun to steal from another. I can understand he might have been beaten or abused, dragged in to a gang against his will, trying to make a living, blah blah blah. Too bad so sad. There are billions of other people having a tough time and they "DON'T ROB PEOPLE AT GUN POINT".

 

I don't know what video you were watching, but the perp had both hands on the handlebars when he was shot.

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Beyond Saving wrote:Sure,

Beyond Saving wrote:

Sure, shooting scumbags might make you feel better, but in practice desperate people are extremely dangerous. If a criminal believes that they are going to be shot on sight, they are going to be far more likely to use lethal force themselves. If they believe that risking their own life is better than being in prison, they will be more violent resisting arrest putting the police and civilians at risk. When you push a person into a corner and they don't think they have a way out they will react violently.

Vengeance style law enforcement causes the sort of all out warfare that you see in Rio De Janeiro where organized gangs of criminals shoot police on sight and civilians refuse to call police out of fear of reprisal. Even the most basic criminal who starts stealing out of sheer desperation ends up becoming violent out of necessity. We see a smaller scale version of this problem in the US with our "war on drugs" where people convicted of minor drug crimes end up being forced into more serious crimes out of desperation when they can't get a job, need protection in prison and end up being arrested multiple times because they can't kick their habit.

Add in the sheer danger of corruption when you allow police to shoot and don't heavily criticize it, and you have a recipe for 3rd world crime rates. And I sure as hell don't want to live in a country like that just to feel better about a couple of scumbags being shot.

 

Thank you. I don't want to live under a "shoot first" society.

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Brian37 wrote:I don't know

Brian37 wrote:

I don't know what video you were watching, but the perp had both hands on the handlebars when he was shot.

 Yet he was still fully armed and had already brandished his handgun in a threatening manner.  Is there any question as to what the implications were, you know like he was actually signaling his willingness to shoot anyone who got in his way ?

  Besides, who knows what the rules of engagement are for Brazilian law enforcement ?  They are not universal.

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

 Brazil is too pussified to even have a death penalty. You must always have a death penalty for the worst of the worst!

 

  But death is looked upon as a release by some prisoners.  A needle in the arm and then it's sleepy time. Big deal.

   I used to feel like you do but to me the most appropriate response to the "worst of the worst"  is to keep them alive and make them endure a living hell to the end of their natural life.  That's why I referenced the Russian prisons where just such brutal treatment is meted out.  Death is welcome to most prisoners but it never arrives.

 

                         Russian prison brutality:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcCxq32yGE

                                                                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJn7YYkpYdo

 

   All the documentaries about the worst prisons in the world all have the same pathetic theme, the prisoners run the prison and mayhem is allowed to flourish.   In Russian prisons none of that exists.   Prisoners will fucking comply with their rules or they will be made to suffer greatly.  The prisoners are not looked upon as humans but as degenerates who only deserve to be ground down into mush.  That is a sentence whose degree of suffering far exceeds anything a death penalty could ever impose.

 

 

 

I see what you mean dude but we have plenty of prisoners to go around. We lead the world with 2 million prisoners so you can still give the worst of the worst life in prison and the worst of the worst of the worst the death penalty! I'm sure Russian prisons are bad but we lead he world with solitary confinement which is another kind of torture! I don't know if you heard of the ADX Florence Supermax federal prison but inmates can spend decades there in 23 hour a day lockdown all alone in a Cell. That's enough to drive even the strongest willed man crazy! How could Russian prisons be worse than that??

The federal death row is in Terre Haute Indiana and they are also in isolation lockdown. Although President Obama is for the death penalty in extreme cases federal executions are so rare. I mean the last one was Timothy McVeigh which was over 10 years ago.

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Brian37 wrote:I don't know

Brian37 wrote:
I don't know what video you were watching, but the perp had both hands on the handlebars when he was shot.

Look closely at his hands in the still frame. Also this video gives a good "editorial" of the video.

 

 


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

I don't know what video you were watching, but the perp had both hands on the handlebars when he was shot.

 Yet he was still fully armed and had already brandished his handgun in a threatening manner.  Is there any question as to what the implications were, you know like he was actually signaling his willingness to shoot anyone who got in his way ?

  Besides, who knows what the rules of engagement are for Brazilian law enforcement ?  They are not universal.

 

AT THE MOMENT, the cop took aim at him, his gun was in his pants, he was not holding the gun in his hand, and the bike was not in motion at all. I will never be a fan of "shoot first" mentality.

 

Understanding the emotions behind it does not mean we can or should react with our emotions.

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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
I don't know what video you were watching, but the perp had both hands on the handlebars when he was shot.

Look closely at his hands in the still frame. Also this video gives a good "editorial" of the video.

 

 

Nice try, but seconds later he tucks the gun in his pants to pick up the bike. If the cop had shot him right at your freeze frame, I would agree. But he tucks the gun away and he does not have a gun in his hands when he gets shot.

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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:I

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

I see what you mean dude but we have plenty of prisoners to go around. We lead the world with 2 million prisoners so you can still give the worst of the worst life in prison and the worst of the worst of the worst the death penalty! I'm sure Russian prisons are bad but we lead he world with solitary confinement which is another kind of torture! I don't know if you heard of the ADX Florence Supermax federal prison but inmates can spend decades there in 23 hour a day lockdown all alone in a Cell. That's enough to drive even the strongest willed man crazy! How could Russian prisons be worse than that??

The federal death row is in Terre Haute Indiana and they are also in isolation lockdown. Although President Obama is for the death penalty in extreme cases federal executions are so rare. I mean the last one was Timothy McVeigh which was over 10 years ago.

I've seen ADX Florence Supermax and I would even go even further for some of these people.

The bomber, Ramzi Yousef, is in Range 13 and he gets television. I wouldn't give any of them it. I wouldn't want them to know that the World Trade Center had been attacked. I'd rather they be in prison and not know any thing.

 

 


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
I don't know what video you were watching, but the perp had both hands on the handlebars when he was shot.

Look closely at his hands in the still frame. Also this video gives a good "editorial" of the video.

 

 

Nice try, but seconds later he tucks the gun in his pants to pick up the bike. If the cop had shot him right at your freeze frame, I would agree. But he tucks the gun away and he does not have a gun in his hands when he gets shot.

Ah, but you said both his hands were on the handle bars. They weren't.

I know the gun was tucked, but as the discussion group points out. As a cop in San Paulo, you are in a situation different than in America. The results of a situation like this are different. He had to shoot because of the history of crime and criminals in San Paulo.

 


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

I don't know what video you were watching, but the perp had both hands on the handlebars when he was shot.

 Yet he was still fully armed and had already brandished his handgun in a threatening manner.  Is there any question as to what the implications were, you know like he was actually signaling his willingness to shoot anyone who got in his way ?

  Besides, who knows what the rules of engagement are for Brazilian law enforcement ?  They are not universal.

 

AT THE MOMENT, the cop took aim at him, his gun was in his pants, he was not holding the gun in his hand, and the bike was not in motion at all. I will never be a fan of "shoot first" mentality.

 

Understanding the emotions behind it does not mean we can or should react with our emotions.

You would suck as a cop in San Paulo.

 


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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:I'm

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
I'm sure Russian prisons are bad but we lead he world with solitary confinement which is another kind of torture! I don't know if you heard of the ADX Florence Supermax federal prison but inmates can spend decades there in 23 hour a day lockdown all alone in a Cell. That's enough to drive even the strongest willed man crazy! How could Russian prisons be worse than that??

 

 

     Solitary confinement is hell ?  Having your private cell is hell with a black and white television included ?   Jesus, I'd take that "hell" compared to receiving broken bones and internal bleeding inflicted by sadistic Russian prison staff any day.  I don't know if you watched any of the vids about the worst penal colonies in Russia but there is no TV, you cannot lay on your bunk during the day, sleep deprivation is standard, and if you piss off the staff you will be stomped to shit ( watch the vids ) and after they are through beating you then they will enter your cell and destroy all of your possessions and smash your furniture to pieces.  Oh yeah, give me some of that ! LOL.

 

  Christ, what's so scary about being alone in a cell.   No one dies of monotony. 

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
I'm sure Russian prisons are bad but we lead he world with solitary confinement which is another kind of torture! I don't know if you heard of the ADX Florence Supermax federal prison but inmates can spend decades there in 23 hour a day lockdown all alone in a Cell. That's enough to drive even the strongest willed man crazy! How could Russian prisons be worse than that??

 

 

     Solitary confinement is hell ?  Having your private cell is hell with a black and white television included ?   Jesus, I'd take that "hell" compared to receiving broken bones and internal bleeding inflicted by sadistic Russian prison staff any day.  I don't know if you watched any of the vids about the worst penal colonies in Russia but there is no TV, you cannot lay on your bunk during the day, sleep deprivation is standard, and if you piss off the staff you will be stomped to shit ( watch the vids ) and after they are through beating you then they will enter your cell and destroy all of your possessions and smash your furniture to pieces.  Oh yeah, give me some of that ! LOL.

 

  Christ, what's so scary about being alone in a cell.   No one dies of monotony. 

I'd agree. Beating and taking the basics away is unusual punishment. Giving them (sleep, water, food, pooping, clothing) is all I would want to give Stick them in a cell for 23 hours a day, then a hour for walking outside in a 20x20 room with walls so high they can't possibly see any thing but the sky. No tv. No outside contact. No friends. No family. No talking to others.

 

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
I'm sure Russian prisons are bad but we lead he world with solitary confinement which is another kind of torture! I don't know if you heard of the ADX Florence Supermax federal prison but inmates can spend decades there in 23 hour a day lockdown all alone in a Cell. That's enough to drive even the strongest willed man crazy! How could Russian prisons be worse than that??

 

 

     Solitary confinement is hell ?  Having your private cell is hell with a black and white television included ?   Jesus, I'd take that "hell" compared to receiving broken bones and internal bleeding inflicted by sadistic Russian prison staff any day.  I don't know if you watched any of the vids about the worst penal colonies in Russia but there is no TV, you cannot lay on your bunk during the day, sleep deprivation is standard, and if you piss off the staff you will be stomped to shit ( watch the vids ) and after they are through beating you then they will enter your cell and destroy all of your possessions and smash your furniture to pieces.  Oh yeah, give me some of that ! LOL.

 

  Christ, what's so scary about being alone in a cell.   No one dies of monotony. 

I'd agree. Beating and taking the basics away is unusual punishment. Giving them (sleep, water, food, pooping, clothing) is all I would want to give Stick them in a cell for 23 hours a day, then a hour for walking outside in a 20x20 room with walls so high they can't possibly see any thing but the sky. No tv. No outside contact. No friends. No family. No talking to others.

 

I'm ok with that but you still must have the death penalty for the worst of the worst of the worst. As far as comparing Russian prisons to American supermax prisons it's a matter of physical torture vs. mental torture. Pick your poison!

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Beyond Saving wrote:Sure,

Beyond Saving wrote:

Sure, shooting scumbags might make you feel better, but in practice desperate people are extremely dangerous. If a criminal believes that they are going to be shot on sight, they are going to be far more likely to use lethal force themselves. If they believe that risking their own life is better than being in prison, they will be more violent resisting arrest putting the police and civilians at risk. When you push a person into a corner and they don't think they have a way out they will react violently.

Vengeance style law enforcement causes the sort of all out warfare that you see in Rio De Janeiro where organized gangs of criminals shoot police on sight and civilians refuse to call police out of fear of reprisal.

"Vengeance style law enforcement" seems to be working well for thefts in the middle east, where one can leave their purse in a store and expect it to still be there when they return. Apparently after so many hand amputations (without anesthetic, mind you), the thieves decided it was better to not steal.

 

I'm hoping you have a better retort to this phenomena than Bob Spence's about Arab nations being "not civilized" garbage. (isn't being "civilized" relative to one's viewpoint anyways?)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

 

 

 

 As far as comparing Russian prisons to American supermax prisons it's a matter of physical torture vs. mental torture. Pick your poison!

 

 

                  Dude, what could be more psychologically damaging than living in fear of having the shit beat out of you ?  It's not this either or dichotomy that you seem believe it is.  Just the mere threat of physical torture carries a heavy psychological burden upon its victims whether you believe it or not.  Mental torture is the result of living with the perpetual threat of physical torture.  How simple is that to understand ?

 

Why do you think so many Hispanic drug cartels and Islamic fanatics go to the trouble of filming their brutality, because they know that just broadcasting  the sounds and images of such brutality produce fear among those who are targeted.  No one who knows that they could be captured and  tortured shrugs off this shit like it's no big deal.  They worry and it fucks with their heads....mental torture.

 

 

 

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digitalbeachbum wrote:No tv.

digitalbeachbum wrote:
No tv. No outside contact. No friends. No family. No talking to others.

 

 

    The threat of being deprived of human contact carries no aspect of suffering to me.  Of course experiencing the loss of freedom in a prison would be shitty but being alone doesn't cause me the slightest amount of psychological distress.  Perpetual solitude ?  I prefer it ( due to psychological / emotional idiosyncrasies, that is )

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ProzacDeathWish wrote: Dude,

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Dude, what could be more psychologically damaging than living in fear of having the shit beat out of you ?  It's not this either or dichotomy that you seem believe it is.  Just the mere threat of physical torture carries a heavy psychological burden upon its victims whether you believe it or not.  Mental torture is the result of living with the perpetual threat of physical torture.  How simple is that to understand ?

 

 

Only those egos who fear physical violence. There are some people who don't have any fear of getting the crap knocked out of them. There are also some people that welcome it.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:
No tv. No outside contact. No friends. No family. No talking to others.

 

 

    The threat of being deprived of human contact carries no aspect of suffering to me.  Of course experiencing the loss of freedom in a prison would be shitty but being alone doesn't cause me the slightest amount of psychological distress.  Perpetual solitude ?  I prefer it ( due to psychological / emotional idiosyncrasies, that is )

My point exactly. Each person is going to have their own hell.


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Dude, what could be more psychologically damaging than living in fear of having the shit beat out of you ?  It's not this either or dichotomy that you seem believe it is.  Just the mere threat of physical torture carries a heavy psychological burden upon its victims whether you believe it or not.  Mental torture is the result of living with the perpetual threat of physical torture.  How simple is that to understand ?

 

 

Only those egos who fear physical violence.

  

  Thanks Yoda,   but I was thinking more in terms of the effects of blunt force trauma upon nerve endings rather than effect upon egos.  Apparently the vast majority of prison inmates ( and humanity ) are not so aloof regarding physical pain.

 

digitalbeachbum wrote:
There are some people who don't have any fear of getting the crap knocked out of them. There are also some people that welcome it.

    Yes, they're called masochists.   I'm sure there is a point at which tolerable pain can be modulated by talented sadists to become intolerable pain.  I guarantee it.  Flesh is flesh.

 

 

Nevertheless digital, after posting above I did ponder the example of those who use self-immolation as a form of protest but my only conclusion so far is that although they most certainly felt the searing heat and excruciating pain ...hence the significance of that kind of sacrifice... perhaps they didn't "fear it" ( at least at first ) but they most certainly interpreted it as the most unbearable experience they were ever going to have, which is what makes physical torture morph into mental torture, that is if they don't die first.

  I'm open to counter argument but they better be convincing.  ( ie, atheists don't embrace skepticism as a tool for nothing. )

 

 

 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:   I

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   I used to feel like you do but to me the most appropriate response to the "worst of the worst"  is to keep them alive and make them endure a living hell to the end of their natural life.  That's why I referenced the Russian prisons where just such brutal treatment is meted out.  Death is welcome to most prisoners but it never arrives.

 

                         Russian prison brutality:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcCxq32yGE

                                                                  www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJn7YYkpYdo

 

   All the documentaries about the worst prisons in the world all have the same pathetic theme, the prisoners run the prison and mayhem is allowed to flourish.   In Russian prisons none of that exists.   Prisoners will fucking comply with their rules or they will be made to suffer greatly.  The prisoners are not looked upon as humans but as degenerates who only deserve to be ground down into mush.  That is a sentence whose degree of suffering far exceeds anything a death penalty could ever impose.

 

 

I rather like the way that this Russian Prison system is run. Its called Black Dolphin. Penalty ? Life. Escape ? 0.  Every hour is videotaped, and prisoners are blindfolded when leaving each cell. No mess hall, and all activity outside the cell, is walking bent over, six guards and an angry dog surrounding you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWteX6TmMrI

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  Yes and Black Dolphin

  Yes and Black Dolphin appears to be at least run in a professional manner.  What was shown on camera of the cells and hallways appeared to be clean and free of piles of trash and debris.  I wasn't aware of any floggings or beatings of prisoners associated with Black Dolphin despite their no shit attitude.

Beneath Black Dolphin are the various Russian penal colonies where the facilities are far less maintained and the prisoners are treated with true hatred and brutality. 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  Thanks Yoda,  

Nevertheless digital, after posting above I did ponder the example of those who use self-immolation as a form of protest but my only conclusion so far is that although they most certainly felt the searing heat and excruciating pain ...hence the significance of that kind of sacrifice... perhaps they didn't "fear it" ( at least at first ) but they most certainly interpreted it as the most unbearable experience they were ever going to have, which is what makes physical torture morph into mental torture, that is if they don't die first.

  I'm open to counter argument but they better be convincing.  ( ie, atheists don't embrace skepticism as a tool for nothing. )

No problem. The advice is always free too!

 

As for pain, I've seen some crazy shit. People who can shut off that portion of their mind feel nothing. The mind is a very powerful tool.


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harleysportster wrote:I

harleysportster wrote:
I rather like the way that this Russian Prison system is run. Its called Black Dolphin. Penalty ? Life. Escape ? 0.  Every hour is videotaped, and prisoners are blindfolded when leaving each cell. No mess hall, and all activity outside the cell, is walking bent over, six guards and an angry dog surrounding you.

I believe hard core criminals deserve this treatment.

I saw an interview with an inmate who got out of Black Dolphin and he said he wasn't ever going back. He said he was going to get rid of those people who were always getting him trapped.

Can you imagine what some of these "gang bangers" would be saying if they were treated like this?


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i'm a firm believer in going

i'm a firm believer in going back to the old work farms.  everybody is always whining about how much our infrastructure and facilities suck and there's no tax money for it, blah blah blah, so we have to turn it over to private companies.

if the state wants to solve a lot of its problems and get the private sector by the balls, the best thing to do is utilize its enormous, untapped free labor force: convicts.  i'm talking unpaid, hard labor: ditch-digging, road-building, construction, etc.  just hire a few engineers and master tradesmen to oversee everything, and a few of the hardest motherfuckers you can find to keep shit in line, and boom, lots of problems solved.

let the construction companies and the unions work with private contracts.  no more state contract tenders.  let's keep that shit internal.

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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iwbiek wrote:i'm a firm

iwbiek wrote:

i'm a firm believer in going back to the old work farms.  everybody is always whining about how much our infrastructure and facilities suck and there's no tax money for it, blah blah blah, so we have to turn it over to private companies.

if the state wants to solve a lot of its problems and get the private sector by the balls, the best thing to do is utilize its enormous, untapped free labor force: convicts.  i'm talking unpaid, hard labor: ditch-digging, road-building, construction, etc.  just hire a few engineers and master tradesmen to oversee everything, and a few of the hardest motherfuckers you can find to keep shit in line, and boom, lots of problems solved.

let the construction companies and the unions work with private contracts.  no more state contract tenders.  let's keep that shit internal.

 

That is how present day Siberia operates near the Trans-Siberian railway. Part of the documentary I posted was on K-17, (Camp 17) in Siberia. A much more open prison system than Black Dolphin or Vladimir Central. In K-17, everyone gets to awaken at 6 in the morning, everyone gets to exercise, go to work and work all day. They range from warehouses, to sewing shops creating uniforms. In all actuality, working is actually something most of the prisoners want to do since it beats sitting in a cell all day.

In fact, the punishment of K-17 is to simply sit in isolation, which is one thing a LARGE majority of prisoners seem to hate and fear.

Of course, Black Dolphin and Vladimir Central seemed to be aimed moreso at serial killers and really dangerous scum. While the residents of labor camp K-17 can range from petty larceny to robbery. Plus, K-17 is exclusively for first time offenders. By the time most of them have done time in Siberian zero temperatures MILES away from family and anything they know. They are practically grateful to the prison for setting them on the right path and stating that "They will never let the colony down upon release". How effective that it is, I do not know, but I do think a pretty harsh punishment could possibly act as a deterrent.

But there again, a lot of crimes like the ones in K-17 could stem from simple economics and such. Who knows ? I don't. But I rather like the model of working labor camps.

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iwbiek wrote:i'm a firm

iwbiek wrote:

i'm a firm believer in going back to the old work farms.  everybody is always whining about how much our infrastructure and facilities suck and there's no tax money for it, blah blah blah, so we have to turn it over to private companies.

if the state wants to solve a lot of its problems and get the private sector by the balls, the best thing to do is utilize its enormous, untapped free labor force: convicts.  i'm talking unpaid, hard labor: ditch-digging, road-building, construction, etc.  just hire a few engineers and master tradesmen to oversee everything, and a few of the hardest motherfuckers you can find to keep shit in line, and boom, lots of problems solved.

let the construction companies and the unions work with private contracts.  no more state contract tenders.  let's keep that shit internal.

 

I would support this too.


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harleysportster wrote:iwbiek

harleysportster wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

i'm a firm believer in going back to the old work farms.  everybody is always whining about how much our infrastructure and facilities suck and there's no tax money for it, blah blah blah, so we have to turn it over to private companies.

if the state wants to solve a lot of its problems and get the private sector by the balls, the best thing to do is utilize its enormous, untapped free labor force: convicts.  i'm talking unpaid, hard labor: ditch-digging, road-building, construction, etc.  just hire a few engineers and master tradesmen to oversee everything, and a few of the hardest motherfuckers you can find to keep shit in line, and boom, lots of problems solved.

let the construction companies and the unions work with private contracts.  no more state contract tenders.  let's keep that shit internal.

That is how present day Siberia operates near the Trans-Siberian railway. Part of the documentary I posted was on K-17, (Camp 17) in Siberia. A much more open prison system than Black Dolphin or Vladimir Central. In K-17, everyone gets to awaken at 6 in the morning, everyone gets to exercise, go to work and work all day. They range from warehouses, to sewing shops creating uniforms. In all actuality, working is actually something most of the prisoners want to do since it beats sitting in a cell all day.

In fact, the punishment of K-17 is to simply sit in isolation, which is one thing a LARGE majority of prisoners seem to hate and fear.

Of course, Black Dolphin and Vladimir Central seemed to be aimed moreso at serial killers and really dangerous scum. While the residents of labor camp K-17 can range from petty larceny to robbery. Plus, K-17 is exclusively for first time offenders. By the time most of them have done time in Siberian zero temperatures MILES away from family and anything they know. They are practically grateful to the prison for setting them on the right path and stating that "They will never let the colony down upon release". How effective that it is, I do not know, but I do think a pretty harsh punishment could possibly act as a deterrent.

But there again, a lot of crimes like the ones in K-17 could stem from simple economics and such. Who knows ? I don't. But I rather like the model of working labor camps.

As I mentioned previously, the USMC has a platoon they use for trouble makers. One of my fellow marines got busted for some stupid shit and when they returned him to our platoon he was just like a newbie recruit straight out of parris island. When I asked him about it his response was, "I'm never going back there".


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The way I see it, the guy

The way I see it, the guy was waving a gun around on a busy public street. He deserved what he got. And the cop obviously didn't kill him, he was still moving and talking at the end of the vid: also as it should be.

I don't see any problem with the events in the video.

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Vastet wrote:The way I see

Vastet wrote:
The way I see it, the guy was waving a gun around on a busy public street. He deserved what he got. And the cop obviously didn't kill him, he was still moving and talking at the end of the vid: also as it should be. I don't see any problem with the events in the video.

I tried to follow up on some news threads and I got a lot of info saying he did later die, but nothing definite.