House Stenographer loses it and rants about God & Freemasons during final vote on debt ceiling
Offline Just when the do nothing Congress was finally doing their job to pay the bills and stave off an economic mess a long time house stenographer Dianne Foster Reidy lost it taking over a mic and began ranting about God and Freemasons.
The do nothing Congressmen must have put something in the house water supply or she got contact insanity from being so near so many crazies. She was sent to a hospital for mental evaluation.
See this video - www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/16/stenographer-shouting-on-house-floor_n_4112145.html
For details see - politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/17/stenographer-snaps-rants-on-house-floor/
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
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What a brave lady! She sounded much saner and more truthful than most of Obama's speeches. That man is insane, he sounds more like a Soviet patriot than an American one. Diane Foster Reidy didn't murder anyone, neither tapped the world's communication. She was probably one of the few decent people left in that building. The society is insane, not her. I hope she gets a great public career, talk shows and writes several bestsellers.
The Congress can not possibly pay the bills. It can only borrow more money to pay the debt from Goldman Sachs, private business called Federal Banking Reserve and China. The economic mess is already there and has been there for about 40 years and it is not going away. The Congress is not doing its job since it apporoved subsidized tractors for Marshall's plan and broke the tradition of not giving public money to private business.
The truth is, America's economy abused the world's resources and is now going for a detox. There's going to be a cold turkey and it won't be Thanksgiving. Fortunately, America's poor will probably get about their business as usual - only with feeling of justice and hope. I'm not saying this in hate or anti-Americanism, I feel the same towards my own government and all other oligarchies, plutocracies and cleptocracies of the world. And you should too.
Anyway, should I understand it that the voting was postponed and America is not getting off the hook for another year?
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I liked the part about "THIS IS NOT 'One nation under god'; it never was." Unfortunately the coolness stops dead cold right there.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
...
Okay, I'm done. I give up. Goodbye internet. I will not miss you, and you won't miss me.
Y'all have fun now.
Oddly enough I have a meme fitting the general situation
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
She is just as nuts as they are; talking the way she did makes me think she really had mental issues.
Not hardly. She is completely delusional. I have personally witnessed wacko believers doing similar to her. When I owned my tanning salon in Orlando a guy who sometimes worked for the Catholic thift store lost it. He went from store to store ripping open doors screaming let God into your life. He completely ripped the door of the frame at the video store next to mine. My clerk, a dancer, had strong legs and fought him for the door and won. Cops came and he was hauled away. He claimed Jesus told him to do it.
Maybe you have some kind of issue with understanding Americanized English. We aren't the same as the Brits and Aussies in what we mean.
Not sure exactly why you think he's a Soviet patriot - explain.
In a room with several hundred crazies I think she fit right in. Clearly showing the Jesus beliefs lead to insane actions.
Making this about Obama are you. I'll let someone else play that game with you. Georgie W started all the crap you are whining about. He let down the guard in 2001 and thousands died. The debt W's fault; the recession - W's fault; invasion of privacy - W's fault. Obama has carried it on, true.
The Marshall plan rebuilt devasted Europe after WW2. If we hadn't helped you still be recovering. Would you pay us back please.
Yep we are pigs. Though you either wouldn't be or would be speaking German if not for us. Still waiting for all the countries to pay us back for rebuilding their destroyed countries after Hitler. Payment plans are available.
No they extended it out to next year. Called kicking the can down the road.
There are solutions to this mess.
A new tax code.
A balanced budget. More taxes and less spending.
A Constitutional convention to pass amendments for: term limits and campaign spending limits including limits on donations; a balanced budget; state rights; etc
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I don't know anything about America helping or not helping rebuild parts of Europe, but I do know that by the time you joined in we were already winning, and that we ultimately have the Soviets to thank for the victory. The Americans did shit compared to France, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and Russia. Literally shit.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Oh crap, have you been sipping the tea party crap?
While the United States government is described as a republic, and we are not a mob rule by vote government. The behavior of the Tea Party and Republican party has been nothing but a petulant child throwing a fit because they lost two elections in a row. The day after is first election the Republican party said they would stop at nothing to make him a 1 term president. The didn't even give the guy a chance. They have lied about much of his positions, such as ACA, even though he modeled ACA after republican ideas, have obstructed him the entire time.
That shutdown was caused by one party and one party alone. If she wants to scream at anyone, she should scream at Cruz and the Republican party.
Our government has a system of checks and balances afforded by the Constitution that both parties throughout our history have used, threatening to override the process by holding the economy hostage when you lost, is not supporting the constitution, it is undermining it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Rather than mental issues, I'd call it a bottled up frustration with insanity of the system. Any halfway decent Christian must see, that the temple is full of traders and they worship money, not God. So she decided to release the frustration in a radical, but purposeful manner. I felt the same when I worked in a car factory, one car per minute and they were taking in new meat for the line.
Yes, the talk about Freemasons is just wrong, but everyone knows most of men in the room went into the same colleges, so it's not far off the mark. Sure, Freemasons are probably a honest self-development club for the rich, while orders like Skull & Bones are a course for young cronies.
http://images.mikhaela.net/pictures/toons/euphemism.gif
The Soviets were a great excuse for maintaining the military machine, though they were internally weak and on the verge of economic collapse. U.S. subsidized them with grain and other resources as the public threats continued. When Soviet Union collapsed, the militarists had no good excuse to keep going, so there was a relatively peaceful Clinton era, but soon they invented another enemy. And now the military spending is greater than during the arms race of Cold War.
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=120
I have a strong suspicion, that Hitler started wars for the same reason that USA does - to cover for the economy. The economy is broken, because automated productivity of factories leaves people without money, unable to buy goods that they used to produce. War destroys the "excessive" goods and thus turns the clock back in terms of economic growth, permitting people to be employed - at least as soldiers and technicians around the war machine. Because we just can't let people take what they need, without money. So we need to invent fake enemies around the world out of people who used to work for us.
As for taxes, who do you think they are going to tax? They taxed anyone they already could, that is, the poorer 70 % of the nation, they have no influence whatsoever on voting in the Congress. And they are going to turn against them, blaming them for the crisis, despite of the fact that they are the productive base of America, or what's left of it. They're not going to tax those who have the money, that would be Communism.
http://www.amazon.com/Addicted-War-U-S-Cant-Militarism/dp/1904859011/ref=la_B001K7XDL0_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382095331&sr=1-1
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
For those of you familiar with the religions of Hawaii, military is the sacred volcano into which men, women and money are thrown to appease the angry god of Capitalism, angry for the mortal sin that the domestic consumption failed to keep up with domestic production. Hence the loss of ability to generate profit, the need to expand beyond borders, and if that doesn't work voluntarily, if the beyond happens to have its own economy and own market, there comes the you'll trade with us, "or else".
http://images.mikhaela.net/pictures/toons/cn070405solarwar.jpg
I'm still not quite sure what is Tea Party or what does it have to do with Christians. But I don't have much belief in politics anymore. Established parties like Democrats and Republicans are good at pretending they're different, but they're dependent on the same swing effect. They count on pissing off a different portion of the electorate. Now that all electorate is pissed off, it stops working and whoever was in power stays in power. (I hope we're not in the tyranny stage of the cycle yet) Obama was elected as a Democrat, but he behaves worse than Republicans. Obama is a warmonger like Bush, only worse, he's very tech-savvy and not stupid.
Both parties, including Obama, are appointed by financial and military-industrial interest groups, religious right nuts here and there. Hence I am curious how comes this is breaking down. Are the congressmen turning back on their sponsors and owners, or do they feel left out completely by the executive power and squabble for crumbs?
If there was any sense in the building, they would not complain about ACA, they'd complain about military spending and jobs shipped overseas. And the fact that automation will not bring jobs back, it will eliminate them. Which would be good, but it means people are left out of their own economy. When that happens, a nation goes to war, finds an outside enemy to blame, or it turns against its own people, resulting either in dictatorship, or civil war. There's still the sensible option of deflating the financial bubble that is Wall Street, but sensibility was dragged out of the room with Diane Foster Reidy.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I'll disagree but will concede that she could have had a mental breakdown due to the insanity of the system. During her state she drew from a serious of phrases to express her feelings.
Vastet,
I'm sure you have noted over the years that I have a great interest in history. One area I spent many hours on was ancient history. However prior to that I studied World War II in great detail.
Your claim: "I don't know anything about America helping or not helping rebuild parts of Europe, but I do know that by the time you joined in we were already winning, and that we ultimately have the Soviets to thank for the victory. The Americans did shit compared to France, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and Russia. Literally shit."
A little history:
You claimed that by the time the US entered the war the allies were winning. Not at all, in fact prior to the US joining, unwillingly I might point out, the allies Britain, Canada, and the rest of the Commonwealth, Russia, and France were in about the low point of the war.
The US was attacked on 12-7-1941 by Japan. We did not declare war on Germany then, we declared war on Japan on 12-8-1941. The idiot Hitler declared war on the US because of a mutual defense pact with Japan on 12-11-1941as did Italy so we declared war on Italy and Germany thereafter.
Early war -
September 1, 1939 Germany invades Poland. 9-17-1939 the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the East. On 9-3-1939, Britain, India, Australia, New Zea land and France declare war on Germany.
On May 10, 1940 Germany invades France, England and it's Commonwealth allies evacuated from Dunkirk France. France surrendered to Hitler on 6-22-1940, so France is pretty much out of it then.
You seem to disregard the USSR was allied with Germany in the early war. The USSR took the opportunity to seize Eastern Poland- 9-17-1939; Estonia gives in to the USSR 9-28-1939; Latvia gives in to the USSR 10-5-1939; Lithuania gives in to the USSR 10-10-1939; Finland attacked by USSR 11-30-1939
The war in Europe went into the quiet war aka "The Phony War" until Hitler invades Norway 5-9-1940. Britain and France send troops, which end up being evacuated by June.
May 10, 1940 - Hitler invades Belgium, France, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.
Britain invades Iceland 5-19-1940
British and French retreat to Dunkirk on 5-25-1940. Eventually fleeing across the channel by 6-3-1940.
France surrenders to Germany, called an armistice on 6-22-1940. Puppet government formed.
The USSR formally annexes Lithuania 8-3-1940; Latvia 8-5-1940 and Estonia 8-6-1940
Air war - Battle of Britain - 7-10-1940 to 10-31-1940
Britain wins the battle losses-
Britain 1547 aircraft; 544 aircrew killed and 422 wounded
Germany 1887 aircraft destroyed; 2698 aircrew killed; 967 captured; 638 missing
Italy invades British Somali-land 8-3-1940
Italy invades Egypt 9-13-1940
Germany enters Romania 10-7-1940
Italy attacks Greece 10-28-1940
Occupied territory and countries end of 1940:
By Germany - Poland, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, France, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary,
By Italy - Parts of Greece, Egypt, British Somali-land, Ethiopia
By Britain - Iceland
By USSR - Eastern Poland. Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, parts of Romania
1941
Tobruk falls to the British - 1-22-1941
Britain advances into Somali-land against Italy
2-14-1941 - Rommel arrives in Tripoli
3-7-1941 - British forces arrive in Greece
Yugoslavia and Greece invaded by Germany 4-6-1941
Tobruk attacked by Rommel 4-14-1941
Yugoslavia surrenders to Germany 4-17-1941
Greece surrenders to Germany 4-27-1941
Germany invades USSR 6-22-1941 advance as far as Moscow by 12-5-1941
Japan bombs Pearl Harbor 12-7-1941
Occupied territory and countries by end of 1941
By Germany - All of Poland, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, France, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Greece, Yugoslavia, Romania, Ukraine, large parts of the USSR up to Moscow, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, parts of Egypt, Belarus, Bulgaria
By USSR - none
By Britain and allies - Iceland, Syria, Lebanon parts of Egypt and North Africa
On 3-11-1941 the US passed the Lend-Lease bill. It gave arms and supplies to Britain and its allies. Later in the year the USSR was included see http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=71
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
Lend-Lease was eventually discounted by 90% when paid so arms, food were paid for at only 10% of actual cost after the war. US arms and manufacturing is what changed the course of the war. The amount was over $50 billion or near $650 billion in 2013 dollars.
A WWII time line - pretty obvious the allies are losing until the US joins - http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/
Interactive map that shows who controlled what - speaks volumes against your claim - http://www.worldology.com/Europe/world_war_2_imap.htm
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Whether or not she was violent has nothing at all to do with whether or not she is delusional.
That you wish to move the discussion to the failed legislative body we called Congress doesn't justify her actions. She acted mentally unbalanced by what she did, even in a non-violent way.
The stupidity of our Congress is another matter, and it was only 46 or 47 times they have tried to vote out the ACA aka Obamacare not 76. Still stupid, like putting your hand in a flame wondering will I get burned, 46 times.
"Everyone knows ...." is like saying "some people say" hearsay and urban legend. In fact they didn't all go to the same colleges.
Harvard - 15
Stanford - 11
Yale - 10
UCLA - 9
Georgetown - 7
University of Florida - 7
University of Georgia - 7
University of Wisconsin at Madison - 7
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill - 6
Brigham Young University - 5
George Washington University - 5
LSU - 5
University of California at Berkley - 5
University of Missouri - 5
University of Tennessee - 5
426 others at a variety of schools
The Free masons comment comes from too much cable TV. Yes, many of the US founding fathers were Free masons that is what she meant.
She claimed the god came to her at night and motivated her.
Her words -
“For the past 2 and 1/2 weeks, the Holy Spirit has been waking me up in the
middle of the night and preparing me (through my reluctance and doubt) to deliver
a message in the House Chamber.
That is what I did last night”
That she decided to bring her invisible fantasy friend delusional views based on 2000 year old storytelling and myths to the House chamber indicates she wanted the publicity and she was well aware that the whole nation if not the world was paying attention to the vote.
I don't disagree that the US needs to give up on the world wide empire and withdraw from Afghanistan, Germany, Korea, the Persian Gulf and Japan.
The war in Germany is over. The cold war is over. No need for 50,000 troops in Germany.
Japan can defend itself, we can leave Okinawa and other bases.
We have sold plenty of weapons to the Saudis and others. If Europe and China wish to protect the oil exports from the Persian Gulf feel free, we should leave, we are well on our way to energy sufficiency. I don't care if you in Europe get oil or not. We don't need to protect it anymore, the EU and China can if they want.
Is that your problem, you get your understanding of the US from satire cartoons?
If you read what I just said, I'm for ending the US involvement everywhere as the world's policeman.
I'm not sure what invasions you mean from the 1950s on. What I know about - Korea - UN mission; Viet Nam - stupidity; Dominican Republican 1965 - OAS including Brazil and others participated; Grenada - 1983; Haiti - 1994 - UN ordered; Bosnia 1993-95 - NATO; Kosovo - 2001 to current - NATO; 2 Iraq Wars 1991 and 2003 to 2010, Afghanistan 2002 to present. You have others?
I need you to detail the wars the US starts that you claim are for the economy.
The US economy has been in decline ever since the greedy corporations started moving production overseas to the least cost labor markets. And pay sub-standard wages for that labor.
You do not understand what I meant by a Constitutional convention. If called, Congress has nothing to do with what comes out of it, it goes around them and can change everything.
See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Typical American false history. You say I'm disregarding that Russia was allied, but if I am then you're disregarding that nearly every power in Europe let the Nazis take their first steps.
If you look at the reality, the Americans were supplying many of the allies from the beginning. It was the overextend into Russia that put an end to Hitler, not American supplies and not American soldiers. Most of the occupied territories were and still are largely irrelevant. Those that weren't formed resistances that were instrumental. Especially the French. The British and Canadian forces were holding the Nazis back or beating them. Your own timeline shows major allied victories in '40, months before your bill was passed. And after it was passed was when Germany invaded Russia, which was their undoing. You joined the mop up, when Hitler called your cowardly tactics out. But it was already over for him.
The Americans did shit, and the only ones oblivious to that fact are the Americans.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
What?
Vaset, I know right now we are verbally at each others throats about other things. But Huh? I agree that Hitler's fatal mistake was attacking Russia, completely boneheaded on his part. But to say America didn't do shit?
I also agree that far to many people in America regarding our history make it sound like peaches and cream as if our shit never stinks, and that is arrogant as well, but this I don't get.
It shouldn't have mattered when we got involved, and it wasn't a matter of being cowards. The Japanese were not then/are not cowards and when they attacked us at Pearl Harbor, one of their military officials said, "I am afraid we have woken up a sleeping giant".
America has a lot to learn from the rest of the west which seems to not have it's head up its ass as much as we do right now, but again, this I don't get.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Truth to be told, you do have a point :
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/the_bomb_didnt_beat_japan_nuclear_world_war_ii#
The Bomb did not beat Japan..Stalin Did.
by Ward Wilson
(This is a bit of a lengthy article and I personally can not say that I have read every word but below is a tiny excerpt)
The Soviet declaration of war also changed the calculation of how much time was left for maneuver. Japanese intelligence was predicting that U.S. forces might not invade for months. Soviet forces, on the other hand, could be in Japan proper in as little as 10 days. The Soviet invasion made a decision on ending the war extremely time sensitive.
And Japan's leaders had reached this conclusion some months earlier. In a meeting of the Supreme Council in June 1945, they said that Soviet entry into the war "would determine the fate of the Empire." Army Deputy Chief of Staff Kawabe said, in that same meeting, "The absolute maintenance of peace in our relations with the Soviet Union is imperative for the continuation of the war."
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
More guns Brian, that's what America really needs. Why can't you understand that ?
LOL.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
And Canadian!?!? You need to brush up on your own country's history. Canadian soldiers weren't used on the ground until the Dieppe Raid in 1942. Prior to that, Canada was playing the role of supplying munitions and most importantly providing training for British pilots. Don't get me wrong, those activities were certainly crucial to the effort. The training facilities ran by the Royal Canadian Air Force was produced up to 1500 pilots a month and any student of the war recognizes how important the aerial conflict was. The Canadians also did an admirable job sinking the U-boats sent to disrupt the Atlantic shipping lines. But to pretend that Canada was over there in 1940 standing side by side with the British holding back the Germans simply isn't reality.
As far as munition production, the US produced more than any country on either side. Only Germany and Russia were even close and it exceeded Canadian production by a factor of 20. Not surprising since we are a much more populous country. In 1940, Canada was becoming concerned that it's own military was not adequately supplied because they were sending everything to the British so they asked the US to supply their military. It was an effective way to get around the isolationists in America who opposed getting involved in Europe because even they had to support protecting North America. So the Americans supplied the Canadians which allowed Canada to send everything they produced to Britain without stripping their own military.
In August 1940, Prime Minister King was convinced that Britain was going to fall and signed the Ogdensburg Agreement which effectively put the Canadian military under American control. It also operated as another underhanded way for Roosevelt to get around the isolationists. The US traded 50 destroyers to Canada in exchange for "leasing" military bases in Canada. The destroyers got sent to Canada and then promptly given to the British naval effort.
I do agree that Hitler's decision to push into the Russians was a huge factor. That it was happening at the same time that the US, Canada and other allied forces started a major counter attack stretched the German military too thin and made things much easier for the allies. If you want to say that it was the primary factor, I think there is a solid argument for that. However, the real world isn't so simple that you can point at a single factor and say it was THE reason a war was won or lost. Had American forces not been involved in the counter attack on the western front, the Germans might have been able to win in the east. We simply had a larger military than anyone else in the west and if that military was missing it is hard to imagine the allies winning in the west. There is a reason why the US and Russia were the two countries that emerged from the war as the dominant military powers that would shape world politics for the rest of the 20th century.
I don't agree with PJTS that anyone in Europe owes us though. We were hardly acting out of altruism. Our involvement in WW2 was strictly out of concern for ourselves. There the Canadians might have a bit more moral ground as they were involved right away out of loyalty to Britain more than concern that anyone was coming across the Atlantic to attack them. Besides, we never really left the military bases that we "leased" even when governments wanted us to leave.
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/docs/AMG_e.pdf
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Production/military-expenditures.htm
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I would definitely have to agree with that.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
My main issue here was you claimed that Britain, Canada, Russia and allies were winning the war by the time the US entered it - the maps show differently, therefore not true. Perhaps you were thinking it was far later the US entered the war and you simply were thinking about the wrong year, if so I understand.
Battles in 1942 in Europe:
North Africa - Britain and US landed in Vichy controlled North Africa 11-8-1942. Advancement to Tunsia was slowed by politics with the Vichy French. By Spring of 1943 vcombined US and British forces had Rommel in a pincer.
In 1943 - Invasion of Sicily July 9 and 10, 1943 by primarily the US and Britain(their force also had Indians, Australians and Canadians.
- Invasion of Italy - Sept 3, 1943 - US and Britain(including Canada)
There were a few others in the Western Theater as well, feel free to look at them and see who was involved.
If you note what I said to Luminon , I'm for withdrawing the US from virtually everywhere we have bases. It's not our job to be the world's policeman or peace force.
Not disregarding that Chamberlain was willing to sell off every ally in Europe to keep England out of the war. He''d have given his children up to have "peace with honor".
The USSR switched sides - it was expelled from the League of Nations after it invaded Finland but not Poland. One wonders why if Germany invading Poland was a reason for war against Hitler why the same wasn't true for Stalin for either action.
Actually not. It was illegal to sell weapons etc to either side until Lend-Lease except on a cash and carry basis. The beginning was Sept 1, 1939. See the Neutrality Act of 1939. It was illegal for US ships to enter war zones and US citizens were warned they traveled there at own risk. During the Spanish civil war the US sold arms, oil and supplies to Franco. We also sold arms to China by not counting it as a war, neither side had declared one.
You are welcome to add up the arms and supply sales prior to Lend-Lease and compare it to the amount under it. Very disportiante. This is from a Russian website and writer - lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/geust/aircraft_deliveries.htm
Quotes from the above -"Lend-lease aircraft amounted to 18% of all aircraft in the Soviet air forces, 20% of all bombers, and 16-23% of all fighters (numbers vary depending on calculation methods), and 29% of all naval aircraft. In some AF commands and fronts the proportion of Lend-Lease aircraft was even higher: of the 9.888 fighters delivered to the air defense (PVO) fighter units in 1941-45 6.953 (or over 70%!) were British or American. In the AF of the Karelian front lend-lease aircraft amounted to about two-thirds of all combat aircraft in 1942-43, practically all torpedo bombers of the naval air forces were A-20G Bostons in 1944-45 etc."
"In addition to the aircraft deliveries American Lend-lease deliveries to Russia included also more than 400.000 trucks, over 12.000 tanks and other combat vehicles, 32.000 motorcycles, 13.000 locomotives and railway cars, 8.000 anti-aircraft cannons and machine-guns, 135.000 submachine guns, 300.000 tons of explosives, 40.000 field radios, some 400 radar systems, 400.000 metal cutting machine tools, several million tons of foodstuff, steel, other metals, oil and gasoline, chemicals etc. A price tag was naturally attached to all deliveries, with following typical fighter prices:
P-40 Kittyhawk - 44.900 dollars, P-39 Airacobra - 50.700 dollars and P-47 Thunderbolt - 83.000 dollars"
Clearly a discount deal - fighter aircraft for less than $100 USD.
More from the Russian website on Lend-Lease to the USSR - lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/index.htm
And here's a few other links for you to peruse on how the US and to some extent the UK helped out the USSR:
www.historynet.com/did-russia-really-go-it-alone-how-lend-lease-helped-the-soviets-defeat-the-germans.htm
www.historynet.com/russias-life-saver-lend-lease-aid-to-the-ussr-in-world-war-ii-book-review.htm
And Canada was a major contributor to the war effort for the UK in arms and supplies as well as money and loans to the UK - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_Dollar_Gift_and_Mutual_Aid
No one questions that Hitler was a loon. He screwed up by not invading England. 2 front wars just never work out. Failing to withdraw from Stalingrad was another of his stupid actions.
However, one should note what damage was done to the USSR by Germany up to the end of 1941. It took about 2 years for the USSR to recover enough to push back Germany from it's borders.
What the US shipped to the USSR enabled them to begin the turnaround.
According to this American professor who escaped Holland as a child the USSR would have eventually turned around but at even greater cost in lives and several years longer. www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385548/posts
What do you mean the territories that were occupied were and are irrelevant?
Poland, the Baltic States provided both Germany and the USSR with a buffer zone.
Norway provided Hitler with iron ore; Romania with oil; Ukraine with grain. Irrelevant!
Yep, Britain seized Neutral Iceland. They turned it over to Neutral US in the Summer of 1941.
Yes the Brits outlasted Hitler in his London Blitz. More stupidity on the loon and Goering.
Other than that not really.
No mop up was started in 1941, see the timelines.
The war in the West was fought at first in Egypt, then Sicily, and Italy. And who was involved in that?
And let's not forget the war in the Atlantic, subs versus convoys, destroyers and PBYs against subs. Early 1942 was not good for the allies. This was a joint operation between the US, Canada and Britain. The convoys brought the aid to Britain which included the D-Day invasion force.
The US was able to out produce the ships being sunk by the U-Boats. U-boats sank 5,150 ships with a loss of 785 subs.
And this quote - "In December 1940 convoy losses promised to reach such an extent that defeat through starvation threatened Britain." - see - www.mikekemble.com/ww2/uboat.html
Winning the war in 1940 by Britain? Not so.
You realize that the war was called a World War.
And what did Canada and Britain do in the Pacific against Japan?
You won that war too I suppose?
Don't think so.
See this timeline in the Pacific war, don't see much positive from the British - www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/timeline.htm
Australia decided the US was it's only real ally who would be able to aid them - "The Australian Government...regards the Pacific struggle as primarily one in which the United States and Australia must have the fullest say in the direction of the democracies' fighting plan. Without inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the United Kingdom."— Prime Minister John Curtin of Australia 12/26/1941
Canada had minimal involvement other than Alaska and the RCAF in the Pacific with total killed of 554 mostly in British controlled areas in India and Burma.
The primary participants here were the US. Australia, and New Zealand. After the war ended in Europe Canada was preparing to join but by August 1945 hadn't reached the theater.
Britain's losses included, Burma, Hong Kong, Singapore, the worst British defeat in 150 years, parts of India.
Here the British lost 5670 killed; India - 6.850; Australia - 9,470;
compared to the US of 111,606 in the Pacific
China lost over 4,000,000 plus civilians.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
No one actually believed either Japan or Germany was going to come across the ocean and invade the US. The Aleutians Islands being the only exception, my uncle served there and fought the Japanese on Attu.
Our involvement was due to December 7th, no one other than FDR and a few others wanted to be involved in Europe's war. See isolationism on Google.
After Japan declared war we didn't do so against Germany, we reciprocated after loon Hitler declared war on us. Churchill was said to be elated over the Pearl Harbor attack -
On Dec 8, 1941, he wrote in his diary: "I knew the United States was in the War now up to the neck, so we had won after all." He said, "American blood flows in my views. The United States is like a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it, there is no limit to the power it can generate."- The Diaries of Winston Churchill Also he was reported to be jubilant. His telegram to the Ambassador in Moscow indicated glee.
As I've mentioned more than once in this thread, we need to leave Germany, war over, so is the Cold War; Okinawa - war over; Afghanistan - nothing good will come of it; the Persian Gulf - we do not need their oil, China and the EU does, let them defend it.
It's not just from WW2 that the US ran up costs, we kept bases and supplied allies in Europe until the end of the USSR to protect them, our allies and as a supposed buffer zone I suppose. Though with enough nukes to destroy the world I really don't see why a buffer zone in Europe has any meaning during that period. A lot of the debt ran up caused the eventual demise of the USSR no doubt, which really benefited all concerned.
One can argue either way as to whether or not Europe owes the US for our actions. Churchill and Stalin took the view during the war we were very valuable.
I understand the resentment many have of the US especially since Georgie W's wars. The US as a bully is how we are perceived. Not everyone in the US agrees with the world wide bases and presence. I don't, let others pay the costs, we need to be done with this. It's not our job to be the world's policemen or even the UN enforcement army.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Because Japan is not a fascist state and as virtually no gun death?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
so the only state that would allow available guns is a fascist state? have you any idea what fascism is?
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
I agree with everything here.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Nope, but he is a big supporter.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
"Vaset, I know right now we are verbally at each others throats about other things. But Huh? I agree that Hitler's fatal mistake was attacking Russia, completely boneheaded on his part. But to say America didn't do shit?"
You are the master of strawmen and quoting out of context. And that's all I need to say.
" But to pretend that Canada was over there in 1940 standing side by side with the British holding back the Germans simply isn't reality. "
Yes it is reality. Thousands of Canadians joined the British military. Just as thousands of Americans joined the Canadian military so they could join the war instead of sitting on the sidelines. Canada had one of the most powerful militaries in the world during WW2. We declared war in 1939, when our total military forces numbered a mere 10-15,000 men. We swelled our forces and materiel in an incredibly short period of time, and had people on location as soon as was viable. Canada easily did a hundred times more than the US in putting down the Nazi's.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
The Convoy HX-1 departed Halifax just six days after the nation declared war, escorted by HMCS St. Laurent and HMCS Saguenay.[17] The 1st Canadian Infantry Division arrived in Britain on 1 January 1940.
We were there at the beginning of 1940, as a nation. And as British conscripts before that.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
How are we measuring it? Soldiers sent? We beat you. Canada had a little over 1 million at their peak, the US had 16 million.
Lives sacrificed? Canada lost 45,000 the US over 400,000.
Money spent? Yeah, we spent way more than you too. Too lazy to look up the exact numbers now.
It is hardly a surprise, the US has a population 10 times that as Canada, so it makes sense that we had 10x the soldiers, 10x the money etc.
Where they sat for 3 years without any significant engagements. The 2nd Canadian Infantry Division were the first Canadian infantry to see action with the Dieppe Raid. The 1st didn't see action until the Operation Husky invasion of Sicily in July 1943, mostly because the Canadian Prime Minister begged that a Canadian unit be included in the fun and the British swapped out one of their divisions to make room for them. The force consisted of 3 American divisions, 4 British divisions and the 1 Canadian division. It was supported by US naval forces and combines American/British air units (which were trained by the Canadians.) The attack was under the command of General Eisenhower.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
"How are we measuring it?"
Accomplishments and time in the war.
"US over 400,000."
290,000 actually.
"Where they sat for 3 years without any significant engagements."
Significant is a subjective view. I'd say being in England at all was significant compared to sitting at home as the US did.
You specifically stated we weren't there in 1940, and I proved you wrong.
Canada supplied the most metals, a huge percentage of the materiel considering the population, was in the fight from the beginning, and simply did more than the US.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Just found this Canadian website. ( www.canadaatwar.ca/index.php ) Haven't had time to see whether it differs from anyone's claims in this thread ...but I doubt Vastet would consider it biased against Canada in its viewpoint.
Well it's time for Japan's peaceful society to finally move into the modern age and begin enjoying the benefits of small arms ownership. Maybe The NRA could open some chapters there ? More guns Brian ...more guuuuunnnnzzzzz !
I was including all military deaths. 290k is the number killed in hostile military action. Over 110,000 died from the other dangers of being in a mobilized army such as disease, accidents etc. I included the grand total for both countries, which makes Canada look better since many of their deaths were in their Air Force and were non-combat accidents. It is irrelevant though, we still gave more even if you want to include the grand total for Canada compared to just war deaths in the US.
Not really. You specifically stated they were "fighting" side by side with the British. They weren't. The British were involved in multiple engagements and their soldiers were dieing in combat. The Canadians were at most a deterrent force for an attack that never came, so they were not fighting.
I did not. I specifically said
And they weren't used. Where they were sitting when they weren't being used is irrelevant. I doubt a single Canadian division struck fear into the hearts of the Axis forces and made them reconsider attacking Britain. But if that delusional belief gives you some national pride don't let me stop you.
Particularly nickel, I think they provided upwards of 95% of all the nickel used in the war. Nothing I said contradicted the role that Canada played supplying munitions- I even pointed it out. They also were primarily responsible for training British pilots, which played an absolutely crucial role in the war. The only thing I was disputing is your assertion that Canadian troops were fighting side by side with the British in 1940.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Japan has actually got more serious problems these days. One is their tumultous relationship with China and the other is that they are now witnessing a trend of decline in sexual practices :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24684683
Japan will stand up to China, says PM Shinzo Abe
Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe says other countries want Japan to adopt a more assertive leadership role in Asia to counter the growing power of China.
Mr Abe told the Wall Street Journal there were "concerns that China was trying to change the status quo by force, rather than by the rule of law".
Relations between China and Japan have been strained over recent years.
(Rest of the article found at the link)
And this one right here :
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/10/22/celibacy_syndrome_in_japan_why_aren_t_young_people_interested_in_sex_or.html
Young People in Japan Have Given Up on Sex
By Katy WaldmanA bizarre demographic chill has stolen over the Land of the Rising Sun. According to a fascinating and bewildering investigation in the Guardian by Abigail Haworth, Japanese young people are losing interest not just in marriage but in romantic relationships. Some have even given up on sex. The national press is calling it sekkusu shinai shokogun, or celibacy syndrome.
(Perhaps less gun ownership in Japan is a good thing at this point. If you know what I mean and I think you do).
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
"Not really. You specifically stated they were "fighting" side by side with the British. They weren't. "
They were. And if they sat around doing nothing then that's what the Brits told them to do. Fact is that those Canadians were charged with the defence of the UK so that UK soldiers could be deployed. If they weren't there then the UK would have had that many fewer troops on the lines. And their mere presence made the Nazi's have to think twice about invading. In every sense of the words, we did more than you did right from the beginning. You can delude yourself into thinking the US did more all you like, but only Americans are dumb enough to do so.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I agree with all of this.
What Vastet doesn't get is for it's size Canada did contribute substantially, however they could not match a country that had 10 times their population.
The US also had an isolationist trend after WW I which continued up to the point we were attacked by Japan. Americans considered the war in Europe to be Europe's war and wanted no part.
Once we were attacked, that all changed.
And no one is downplayimg Canada, at the end of the war they had the 3rd largest navy in the world.
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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.