Intelligent Design?

Wladyslaw
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Intelligent Design?

 When it comes to the Evolution v Creationism debate, I have wondered for a while now... what  sort of intelligent designer would make us in such a manner that we have to do so many bodily functions... Such as eating... excrementing waste.

For example there are animals out there that can produce vitamin C... we cannot, and must get our daily vitamin C from food. If we were designed intelligently, what sort of sense does it make to give some (un?)intelligently designed creatures this ability, and then keep it from the Pièce de résistance so to speak. Or going further to plants... they get most of what they need from the Sun, and then other random nutrients in water that can even be given via a mist. (Aeroponics) Why can't we, as intelligently designed creatures utilize the same process as plants when it comes to aeroponics? .-. It doesn't make sense.

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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danatemporary wrote: re ::

danatemporary wrote:

 re :: Check into the Details at all ??? Near Death Experiences or no ?

Quote:
The near death experience provides good evidence

   Were you ever curious about the details of these accounts by actual dNDE and NDE survivors ? Did you read many of the various accounts ? You stated these experience are supposed to lend credence and/or believability to a literal Heaven or Hell (notice I didnt ask, as I should or ought to...according to which tradition) ? I am aware, North America and the United States and Canada have some the largest clearing-houses for details about these accounts. Have you looked into the details at all (by-yourself)?. And spent some time in perual of one particular english language website that was considered a clearing-house for these types of stories, as I have ? And taken the time to read any of these accounts yourself, and not can you find a fast link to post and give us on this board ? Consensus has begun to coalesce from people sharing the details of these experiences with their fellow survivors, and exchanging the actual details within these experiences. (Do you know what youre talking about ?.) 

  Science has weighed in with journals of neurophysiological literature of actual NDE survivors focusing on neuronal activity, in neuroscience.

  I was specifically asking if 'you' read the details of these accounts And if you were confident you know what you are talking about, to a degree of confidence ? Details and comparisons of the accounts of actual NDE cases, what they said, in their own words ? I personal could say no I did not pore over the hundreds of cases, at the cost of thousands of dollars and the premature greying of my hair. However I did review a sampling of over 30 of the dNDE ? I bit more than a half an afternoons worth with me. I did check out a handy and useful website give extensive quotes and summaries of some of the less famous cases of NDE. Would that make me a near expert on the subject ? Answer: Honestly, Heavens No!! More closer to barely above novice, who is kidding themselves I am the novice here, all I can claim. I cannot read only four Journals and expect to know much, (I could lay claim to this tertiary knowledge, if that, myself). With maybe a couple of factoids you not able to find in a couple of hours using a search engine or google. I will stress, I will never be able to be as knowledgeable as these interviewers that have sat down with and continue to sit down w/ not dozens but hundreds of people to compile details of the accounts and compile data. Or read well over half a dozen works from cover to cover. Especially about comparing account to account. People engaged in this are devoted, I am not willing to do that at any point, K? Plus they were dNDE accounts almost exclusively out-side of only a tiny three descriptions of a Heaven like account. That is how I would answer the question. That does not mean I know nothing whatever about the subject (It works for me shows, I have brought up the topic in the past). I can only speak for myself. I have no clue about what you have learned about the dNDE, none whatsoever!  I am not asking if you have expert knowledge about the subject. I was very curious about the subject, how about you then ? Just curious (?)

  . . . . . . . 

  None were of the accounts of Laksmi, the Maa Devi or Yama, or various other faiths. But my favorite is one with an account of meeting Yama though. With maybe a Single Marian account you can also find on YouTube (English language only). You lucked out they were not of ‘Your worshipable goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, always remains on the chest of Nārāyaṇa, and she is certainly the most chaste woman in the creation' of Hindu accounts. So missed out on all those being drawn by swans upward and above, sorry!

Neither I have done such a indepth research. Why should i ? The few i have read, give clear evidence enough to me. According to Wiki,  Eben Alexander III (born December, 1953 in Charlotte, North Carolina) is an American neurosurgeon and the author of the best-selling Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife, in which he describes his 2008 near-death experience and asserts that science can and will determine that heaven really does exist. He as a neursurgeon certainly has the credentials to know, if his brain was shut down or not.

In November 2012, Alexander responded to critics in a second Newsweek article: "My synapses—the spaces between the neurons of the brain that support the electrochemical activity that makes the brain function—were not simply compromised during my experience. They were stopped. Only isolated pockets of deep cortical neurons were still sputtering, but no broad networks capable of generating anything like what we call 'consciousness.' The E. coli bacteria that flooded my brain during my illness made sure of that. My doctors have told me that according to all the brain tests they were doing, there was no way that any of the functions including vision, hearing, emotion, memory, language, or logic could possibly have been intact."[8] Alexander also responded, "I know that my experience happened within coma because of certain anchors to earth time in memory

We have other similar stories :

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t254-near-death-experiences-evidence-of-dualism?highlight=near+death

During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-of-body experience of a resuscitated patient:

"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."


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iwbiek wrote:everything that

iwbiek wrote:
everything that exists now, rather in the form of matter or energy, "existed" in some way before the big bang.

That is YOUR assertion, which cannot be concluded based on what i posted.


"The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago." Stephen Hawking The Beginning of Time

Hawking for example states clearly that time began with the Big Bang. How can you deduce from that, that time existed in some way before the big bang ? A before could not even exist, since a before requires time.


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angelobrazil wrote:Neither I

angelobrazil wrote:

Neither I have done such a indepth research. Why should i ?

So that you are less ignorant and you don't continue making a complete fool of yourself. 

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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angelobrazil wrote:iwbiek

angelobrazil wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
everything that exists now, rather in the form of matter or energy, "existed" in some way before the big bang.

That is YOUR assertion, which cannot be concluded based on what i posted.


"The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago." Stephen Hawking The Beginning of Time

Hawking for example states clearly that time began with the Big Bang. How can you deduce from that, that time existed in some way before the big bang ? A before could not even exist, since a before requires time.

The beginning of the universe /= to the beginning of matter.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Peggotty wrote:I don’t

Peggotty wrote:

I don’t need to believe in a mountain because I can see it but as far as God is concerned the proofs are weak since they don’t exist

Proofs of Gods existence do not exist. If you see on a sand dune written : John loves Sandy, then you know automatically, a intelligent being wrote that message on the dune. You will intuitively exclude the possiblity , that the wind, and rain, left the written message on the dune, that is was a lucky event. Same with God. All creation testifies Gods existence. And God left his signature in ever living Cell through the complex, specified, codifed code stored in every DNA strand.

 

Peggotty wrote:

and the evidence is especially weak. If God existed shouldn’t his presence be easier to feel or perceive so that all we’d need to do is open our eyes or our soul.  I’ve tried to do this in the past but it never worked.  Rather than philosophers and theologians trying to convince us of God’s existence wouldn’t it be much simpler for him to just appear! If God doesn’t want me to believe why does anyone bother to try and convert us?
 

Hardened unbelievers like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens say they find God morally repugnant. Others here have shown this attitude. So it would not matter God simply to show up. But God did that once.  Look at the life of Jesus; He taught here on earth for 3 years, and many people did believe but many still did not. He made things that only God could do, and never anyone else did before, and after him. He healed the crippled and made them walk, he healed and blind and made them see. He even raised people from the dead. Still many people did not believe that He was the Son of God.


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Wladyslaw wrote:  The

Wladyslaw wrote:

  The reason atheism doesn't provide answers to " essential" human questions is that it a) does not have any form of dogma. b) leaves science and reason to provide explanations, not metaphysical explanations. 

f Also, you just admitted that you believe that the universe was created 1.5 E10 years ago, if not you're ignoring " overwhelming scientific evidence." Asserting that the Earth and all of "creation'' is only 6k years old.Also the big bang can be correct ( which it is still not proven, by the way) and it not be the beginning of everything. You see, we only live in the fourth dimension, with free movement in three and only able to see and understand two at a time. (The third is inferred due to our having two eyes) Who is to say that there aren't more dimensions. M theory, formerly known as string theory, suggests that there are eleven dimensions. Why can't our universe have come into existence when some dark matter propelled by dark energy moved into this plain, or part of its own existence? OH and just so you know something can come from complete "nothingness" due to a physical phenomena known as virtual particles. They still obey the law of the conservation of energy because they only exist for a finite amount of time, but the reactions they cause stay. I would link you, but I don't feel like having my citation ignored. Smiling  Post Script: Actually I think I read that somewhere that wasn't on the surface net. Heh, So the link wouldn't work anyway. ^_^

 

 

Both hypotheses, M-theory, and virtual particles, have very limited explanatory power.

M-theory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring_theory

Please note that the number of superstring theories given above is only a high-level classification; the actual number of mathematically distinct theories which are compatible with observation and would therefore have to be examined to find the one that correctly describes nature is currently believed to be at least 10^500 (a one with five hundred zeroes). This has given rise to the concern that superstring theories, despite the alluring simplicity of their basic principles, are, in fact, not simple at all, and according to the principle of Occam's razor perhaps alternative physical theories going beyond the Standard Model should be explored.

In other words : there is a chance of one of 10^500 outcomes to create our universe. A event with a chance of one to 10^50 is said to likely never occure.

Virtual particles :

from the book : a case of a creator
 

Quantum theory ... holds that a vacuum ... is subject to quantum uncertainties. This means that things can materialize out of the vacuum, although they tend to vanish back into it quickly... . Theoretically, anything-a dog, a house, a planet-can pop into existence by means of this quantum quirk, which physicists call a vacuum fluctuation. Probability, however, dictates that pairs of subatomic particles ... are by far the most likely creations and that they will last extremely briefly.... The spontaneous, persistent creation of something even as large as a molecule is profoundly unlikely. Nevertheless, in 1973 an assistant professor at Columbia University named Edward Tryon suggested that the entire universe might have come into existence this way.... The whole universe may be, to use [MIT physicist Alan] Guth's phrase, "a free lunch."20
I closed the magazine and tossed it on Craig's desk. "Maybe Tryon was right when he said, `I offer the modest proposal that our universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time.' “
Craig was listening intently. "Okay, that's a good question," he replied. "These subatomic particles the article talks about are called `virtual particles.' They are theoretical entities, and it's not even clear that they actually exist as opposed to being merely theoretical constructs.
"However, there's a much more important point to be made about this. You see, these particles, if they are real, do not come out of nothing. The quantum vacuum is not what most people envision when they think of a vacuum-that is, absolutely nothing. On the contrary, it's a sea of fluctuating energy, an arena of violent activity that has a rich physical structure and can be described by physical laws. These particles are thought to originate by fluctuations of the energy in the vacuum.
"So it's not an example of something coming into being out of nothing, or something coming into being without a cause. The quantum vacuum and the energy locked up in the vacuum are the cause of these particles. And then we have to ask, well, what is the origin of the whole quantum vacuum itself? Where does it come from?"
He let that question linger before continuing. "You've simply pushed back the issue of creation. Now you've got to account for how this very active ocean of fluctuating energy came into being. Do you see what I'm saying? If quantum physical laws operate within the domain described by quantum physics, you can't legitimately use quantum physics to explain the origin of that domain itself. You need something transcendent that's beyond that domain in order to explain how the entire domain came into being. Suddenly, we're back to the origins question."

 


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angelobrazil

angelobrazil wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:

The Big Bang doesn't posit that everything came from nothing. It posits that all the matter was at a singular location. The notion of everything coming from nothing is what creationsim claims. 

Thats not what i understand, when reading sentences like these ones :

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/beginning.html


<snip>

As Iwbiek said, nothing in what you quoted contradicted the notion that there was nothing before hand. "The universe" is not the same thing as "all the matter in the universe"; It's just the current existence of things as we understand them. Note, that when coal gets compressed and becomes diamond, it doesn't stop being composed of carbon, but we do stop calling it coal. When ice melts, it doesn't stop being H2O, but we do stop calling it ice.

Nothing in your quoted section says that "everything came from nothing". That was a statement you made that showed that you don't really understand the Big Bang. There is no contradiction from the material you quoted and what I said. Again, positing that everything came from nothing is the claim of creationism.


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angelobrazil wrote: That is

angelobrazil wrote:

 

That is YOUR assertion, which cannot be concluded based on what i posted.

well, thank god i read more than what you choose to post.

angelobrazil wrote:


 

Hawking for example states clearly that time began with the Big Bang. How can you deduce from that, that time existed in some way before the big bang ?

i'm not deducing that at all.  time is just a feature of the physically existing universe, and a relative one at that.  i'm merely saying that most scientists--including hawking, if i remember brief history correctly--would say that all the "stuff" that exists now, be it in the form of matter or energy or their theoretical "dark" counterparts, existed before the big bang event, either in the form of a quantum singularity or in the form of colliding clouds of matter and antimatter.

there is no scientist that says there was "nothing" before the big bang.  there has to be something there for it to go "bang."  if you want to be pedantic and object to the term "before" because it implies time, fine, then we'll talk in terms of a syllogism: the presence of "stuff" is necessary for the drastic alteration of "stuff."

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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angelobrazil wrote:In other

angelobrazil wrote:

In other words : there is a chance of one of 10^500 outcomes to create our universe. A event with a chance of one to 10^50 is said to likely never occure.

 

 

So what makes your creation story better than any of the other 10^500 possibilities? Oh, and just a number of possiblities doesn't necessarily mean that all of them have equal footing as far as likely hood is concerned. Smiling I could have just as well used Super Symmetry. :I

 

Sorry about the short response I'm extremely pressed for time right now, I'll be able to make a full response on the morrow.

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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iwbiek wrote:the presence of

iwbiek wrote:
the presence of "stuff" is necessary for the drastic alteration of "stuff."

According to the Big Bang theory, there were no " stuff " beyond the Big Bang. Furthermore, even if there were some kind of stuff, it had to start somehow as well, since, as explained previosly, it could not exist eternally, without a beginning. So you push the problem just further back. And there is also the second law of thermodynamics. If we would be the result of some kind of stuff, we would be in a state of heath death. So your scenario is highly unplausible.


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RobbyPants wrote:everything

RobbyPants wrote:
everything came from nothing is the claim of creationism.

Is God equal nothing ? of course creationism does not say, the universe came from nothing. The cause of the universe was God.


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Quote:I said a genuine

Quote:
I said a genuine prayer of salvation about two years ago.

Fine. If you do not believe anymore today, you just prove, your prayer was not genuine. No true believer will EVER give up his faith.


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angelobrazil

angelobrazil wrote:

 

According to the Big Bang theory, there were no " stuff " beyond the Big Bang.

mainstream big bang theory posits two possibilities: the rapid expansion of a singularity or the collision of a cloud of matter with a cloud of antimatter.  both a singularity and clouds constitute "stuff."  try again. 

angelobrazil wrote:

Furthermore, even if there were some kind of stuff, it had to start somehow as well, since, as explained previosly, it could not exist eternally, without a beginning.

eternity has neither beginning nor end, so saying something can't exist eternally without a beginning is ridiculous.  isn't your god eternal?  when was his beginning?

of course the "stuff" could be beginningless.  why not?  a beginningless cycle of arisings and dissolutions is just as plausible as a supermind creating everything from nothing.  in fact, logically speaking, it's more plausible because a god theory introduces unnecessary variables.

of course, the singularity or the matter/antimatter clouds could have had a "beginning," but we haven't the means of finding out about it yet.  probably we never will.  the difference between you and me is that i am ok with the unknown, and i see no need to fill it with a fairy tale that i accept as 100% historically true, and threaten those who don't with eternal suffering. 

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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angelobrazil wrote:Fine. If

angelobrazil wrote:

Fine. If you do not believe anymore today, you just prove, your prayer was not genuine. No true believer will EVER give up his faith.

I sincerely meant everything I said in that prayer at the time that I said it. You cannot get more genuine than that.

 


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angelobrazil wrote:Quote:I

angelobrazil wrote:

Quote:
I said a genuine prayer of salvation about two years ago.

Fine. If you do not believe anymore today, you just prove, your prayer was not genuine. No true believer will EVER give up his faith.

Well at least you admit that you don't care whether what you believe is true or not. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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angelobrazil

angelobrazil wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:
everything came from nothing is the claim of creationism.

Is God equal nothing ? of course creationism does not say, the universe came from nothing. The cause of the universe was God.

...aaaand you ignored everything else I said.

You seem more concerned with reading over everything people say, picking over it looking for things to argue about than you do about picking a coherent stance and sticking with it.

 

That being said, the two creation myths in Genesis posit that God created matter from nothing. There was no matter. Then there was matter. It doesn't matter (sorry, no pun intended) whether or not there was an actor doing the creating; the point is creationism posits matter coming from nothing. The Big Bang does not.


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angelobrazil wrote:Proofs of

angelobrazil wrote:
Proofs of Gods existence do not exist. If you see on a sand dune written : John loves Sandy, then you know automatically, a intelligent being wrote that message on the dune. You will intuitively exclude the possiblity , that the wind, and rain, left the written message on the dune, that is was a lucky event. Same with God. All creation testifies Gods existence. And God left his signature in ever living Cell through the complex, specified, codifed code stored in every DNA strand.

The fact that he left no such message and that DNA evolved are proofs against your god, not for it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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angelobrazil wrote:Quote:I

angelobrazil wrote:

Quote:
I said a genuine prayer of salvation about two years ago.

Fine. If you do not believe anymore today, you just prove, your prayer was not genuine. No true believer will EVER give up his faith.

There is no such thing as a believer, merely people who pretend to believe on various scales. You have proven you don't believe just by posting here, as the science you decry is wholly responsible for the existence of the internet. Every time you go to the doctor you further prove you don't believe.

You'd best hope your god doesn't exist. You'll be crucified when you come before him if he actually does.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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@ Wladyslaw All the tricks

@ Wladyslaw

All the tricks for formatting your posts can be found here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/filter/tips

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RobbyPants wrote:That being

RobbyPants wrote:

That being said, the two creation myths in Genesis posit that God created matter from nothing. There was no matter. Then there was matter. It doesn't matter (sorry, no pun intended) whether or not there was an actor doing the creating; the point is creationism posits matter coming from nothing. The Big Bang does not.

Well, you are actually wrong. See the quotes i have posted, which it seems you wish to ignore.


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 Quote:I sincerely meant

 

Quote:

I sincerely meant everything I said in that prayer at the time that I said it. You cannot get more genuine than that.

 

Well, i have already answered you.  A conversion can be held as true and genuine only, if the believer does not give up his faith, and begins actually to live according to how the bible teaches us it should be.


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angelobrazil wrote:..All

angelobrazil wrote:
..All creation testifies Gods existence..

Is everything in the world therefore evidence of God's 'intelligent design'?

Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens


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angelobrazil wrote:Well, i

angelobrazil wrote:

Well, i have already answered you.  A conversion can be held as true and genuine only, if the believer does not give up his faith, and begins actually to live according to how the bible teaches us it should be.

My claim was not that I had converted. My claim was that I did once "cry out to God for the salvation only He can offer."

 


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 My claim was not that I

 

My claim was not that I had converted. My claim was that I did once "cry out to God for the salvation only He can offer."

 

God can and does offer his salvation to all humanity, because Jesus fullfilled the scriptures, and died on the cross for the sins of all of us, including you. All you need to do, is to convert yourself, and accept Jesus sacrifice also for yourself. You can do this through

a simple prayer, where you confess to God, that you are a sinner, repent from them, and that you want to begin a new life with Jesus. If you do that sincerly, then the holy spirit will enter into you, make you a new born christian, confirm your childhood, and you become a new member of the family of God. If you want a step by step instruction how it works, you can read following web page :

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/become-a-Christian.html

 


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Same old argument.  Same

Smiling

Same old argument.  Same old assertions.  So, creationist guy, you believe that the big bang theory claims that there was nothing before the big bang?  The big bang theory is a cosmological model that best describes our observations.  Ever since Hubble noticed the red shift constant, theories have been formed to attempt to explain why everything is moving away from everything else at a speed proportional to their distance (the further away they are, the faster they are moving).  Conversely, everything is moving closer to everything else, as you go back in time.  This, coupled with the arrow of time following entropy helps us formulate theories regarding our current space-time configuration.  As best as we can figure out (with a little bit of inflationary theory thrown in to spice things up) there seems to have been a point in time where matter was extremely dense, entropy was extremely close to 0 and then the Big Bang happened (nobody knows why or how, and if anyone tells you otherwise they're full of shit).

There are some interesting theories out there about what configuration matter had prior to the big bang.  What and how many dimensions there were, if time was one of them... it really is all just speculation.  So yes, TIME as we poorly understand it and observe it, appears to have started at the Big Bang.  I'm not going to bore you with more speculative physics regarding virtual particles generating enough energy to initiate an inflationary universe... Bottom line is, I believe the Big Bang Theory to be true, because there simply isn't another theory that describes our observable universe better.  Furthermore, The Big Bang Theory says ABSOLUTELY nothing about what came before it.  It is a cosmological model.  God did it is such an intellectually lazy way of going about things as to make me puke.  

 

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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> (Misc) Rom 4:11 & Rom 5:5 IS the position given

angelobrazil wrote:

Quote:

My claim was not that I had converted. My claim was that I did once "cry out to God for the salvation only He can offer."

 

God can and does offer his salvation to all humanity, because Jesus fullfilled the scriptures, and died on the cross for the sins of all of us, including you. All you need to do, is to convert yourself, and accept Jesus sacrifice also for yourself. You can do this through

a simple prayer, where you confess to God, that you are a sinner, repent from them, and that you want to begin a new life with Jesus. If you do that sincerly, then the holy spirit will enter into you, make you a new born christian, confirm your childhood, and you become a new member of the family of God. If you want a step by step instruction how it works, you can read following web page :

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/become-a-Christian.html

www. biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans 4.11  Romans 4:11

  English resource would be R.C. Sproul's online articles, where according to Spoul's view he made a citation of the New Testament's books of Gal and Romans: "In giving us the deposit of the Spirit, [so] God gives us the assurance of His love .." “And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us” (Romans 5:5), he said.

     I oddly was reading online, only last night, of a distinction between believe and a manifestation of abiding faith, of those you have 'truly' come to faith, as I read, according to the Bible verses that were being cited.  Where most of the christians, in their side-bar, were citing others (specific) parts of the book of Romans mainly, to make their argument, for a sign of conversion would be some change on the inside, (though somewhat ill defined).  Btw,  It was on a site where  a former-christian  was talking about the process of deconversion ( in his own life ), I read it from !

 

 p.s.  -- Btw, Whatever happen to the infamous Jean ... nobody has heard a peep from the bad hat with his insignia badge.

 


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angelobrazil wrote:a simple

angelobrazil wrote:

a simple prayer, where you confess to God, that you are a sinner, repent from them, and that you want to begin a new life with Jesus

While my prayer was somewhat lengthy and repetitive, it did contain those three things. A summary of my prayer: I repeatedly apologized to God for being such a horrible person. I stated I desperately needed His forgiveness, but knew I didn't deserve it. I begged for Him to forgive me anyway. I said I wanted so badly to do better, but knew I couldn't succeed on my own. I told Him I desperately needed His help if I was to ever not be a horrible person. I was also crying pretty much the whole time. :/ It was really quite dramatic and pathetic. I got no response.

 


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angelobrazil wrote:God can

angelobrazil wrote:
God can and does offer his salvation to all humanity, because Jesus fullfilled the scriptures, and died on the cross for the sins of all of us, including you. All you need to do, is to convert yourself, and accept Jesus sacrifice also for yourself. You can do this through

a simple prayer, where you confess to God, that you are a sinner, repent from them, and that you want to begin a new life with Jesus. If you do that sincerly, then the holy spirit will enter into you, make you a new born christian, confirm your childhood, and you become a new member of the family of God. If you want a step by step instruction how it works, you can read following web page :

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/become-a-Christian.html

A blatant lie. Most, if not all, the atheists here have done exactly that (myself included) at least once in their lives, and absolutely nothing happened. More proof your god doesn't exist.

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Ktulu wrote:Same old

Ktulu wrote:

Smiling

Same old argument.  Same old assertions.  So, creationist guy, you believe that the big bang theory claims that there was nothing before the big bang?

I adhere what mainstream cosmologists and astrophysists say, which i have posted already. Unfortunately, that doesnt fit into your preconceived world view. But its, what it is. Live with it.

Ktulu wrote:

 The big bang theory is a cosmological model that best describes our observations.  Ever since Hubble noticed the red shift constant, theories have been formed to attempt to explain why everything is moving away from everything else at a speed proportional to their distance (the further away they are, the faster they are moving).  Conversely, everything is moving closer to everything else, as you go back in time.  This, coupled with the arrow of time following entropy helps us formulate theories regarding our current space-time configuration.  As best as we can figure out (with a little bit of inflationary theory thrown in to spice things up) there seems to have been a point in time where matter was extremely dense, entropy was extremely close to 0 and then the Big Bang happened (nobody knows why or how, and if anyone tells you otherwise they're full of shit).

There are some interesting theories out there about what configuration matter had prior to the big bang.

According to the standard Big Bang theory, matter were created at the Big Bang. There was no matter beyond the singularity.

Vilenkin:

It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning (Many Worlds in One [New York: Hill and Wang, 2006], p.176).

 "The universe had a beginning. There was once nothing and now there is something." Janna Levin, Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University

Well, since the universe had a beginning , it had a cause.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t132-the-kalam-cosmological-argument

it must be noted that since there is nothing prior to the cause of the universe, it cannot be explained scientifically, as this would imply the existence of antecedent determining conditions. Hence, because there are no prior determining conditions, the cause of the universe must be personal and uncaused. Moreover, the cause must transcend space both matter and time to create both matter and time. It must also be changeless, since there was no time prior to the creation of the universe. Interestingly enough, this also lends credibility to the notion that the cause was personal, for how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect? It seems that the only way this could be possible is if the cause was a free agent who has the ability to effect a change; for if the cause of the universe was impersonal, then it would not have created. Finally, in order to create the universe ex nihilo, this cause must be enormously powerful, if not omnipotent. One is warranted in concluding that therefore, God exists.

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 Quote:While my prayer was

 

Quote:

While my prayer was somewhat lengthy and repetitive, it did contain those three things. A summary of my prayer: I repeatedly apologized to God for being such a horrible person. I stated I desperately needed His forgiveness, but knew I didn't deserve it. I begged for Him to forgive me anyway. I said I wanted so badly to do better, but knew I couldn't succeed on my own. I told Him I desperately needed His help if I was to ever not be a horrible person. I was also crying pretty much the whole time. :/ It was really quite dramatic and pathetic. I got no response.

What response did you expect ? That God , or a angel, would suddenly appear in front of you , and tell you that your sins where forgiven ? You got your response , which God has told you in his word , the bible.

1 John 1:9

New International Version (NIV)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

So once you confessed your sins, repent, and accept Jesus as your savior, and your lord, your sins ARE forgiven, all of them, of you whole life,  and you can accept that in faith. From there on, your life will change for the better. But our walking on earth is ON FAITH, not on seeing. And searching for God, he will reveal himself to you subsequently , as he does with all his children. What you need, is trust him. The bible is faithfully, its the truth. I have experienced that again and again in my almost 30 years of walking with Jesus.

John 3:16

New International Version (NIV)

16 For God  loved YOU that much  that he gave his one and only Son, that if you  believe  in him, you shall not perish but have eternal life.

You can keep that just in faith, and begin a new journey together with the heavenly father. There is nothing better and more precious that can be found here on earth.

 


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angelobrazil wrote:What

angelobrazil wrote:

What response did you expect?

Not silence

 

angelobrazil wrote:

That God , or a angel, would suddenly appear in front of you , and tell you that your sins where forgiven?

That would have been a good start.

 

angelobrazil wrote:

You got your response , which God has told you in his word , the bible.

The Bible makes many miraculous claims, but provides little evidence to verify them. I was really hoping that, as part of His response, God would have given me some evidence that could be tested scientifically. He didn't. I really shouldn't have expected otherwise, however. After all, there are countless souls suffering in Hell because of inadequate evidence. If God didn't think them valuable enough to provide evidence for, why would He think me?

 


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blacklight915 wrote:After

blacklight915 wrote:

After all, there are countless souls suffering in Hell because of inadequate evidence. If God didn't think them valuable enough to provide evidence for, why would He think me?

 

The problem, my friend, is not the lack of evidence. The problem is YOU.

God gives enough light to the ones, that honestly search for him, and they will find him. And he gives enough darkness to the ones that deny and do not want him, so they will not find him.

 

Luke 16:19-31

New International Version (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

 

 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

 

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

But today we do not have only Moses and the Prophets. We do have the New Testament. And we do have the testimony of reality, of the natural world.

Romans chapter 1 says :

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools


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angelobrazil

angelobrazil wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:

That being said, the two creation myths in Genesis posit that God created matter from nothing. There was no matter. Then there was matter. It doesn't matter (sorry, no pun intended) whether or not there was an actor doing the creating; the point is creationism posits matter coming from nothing. The Big Bang does not.

Well, you are actually wrong. See the quotes i have posted, which it seems you wish to ignore.

I already read that wall of text once and it said nothing about matter coming from nothing in the Big Bang. If you feel I missed something, cite the relevant parts. 


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angelobrazil

angelobrazil wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

After all, there are countless souls suffering in Hell because of inadequate evidence. If God didn't think them valuable enough to provide evidence for, why would He think me?

 

The problem, my friend, is not the lack of evidence. The problem is YOU.

God gives enough light to the ones, that honestly search for him, and they will find him. And he gives enough darkness to the ones that deny and do not want him, so they will not find him.

What about the ones that honestly search for other gods because they had the rotten luck of being born in the wrong country? What about the ones who go searching for meaning and find drink-the-Kool-Aid-and-die cults in Jonestown? The problem is, people can find anything if they look hard enough; that doesn't make it real. There are seriously 1.5 billion people in this world that will tell you that if you look hard enough, Allah will show you his Truth.


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angelobrazil wrote:According

angelobrazil wrote:
According to the standard Big Bang theory, matter were created at the Big Bang. There was no matter beyond the singularity.

Your ignorance of matter and energy is mind boggling. I'm guessing you were home schooled.

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RobbyPants wrote:I already

RobbyPants wrote:

I already read that wall of text once and it said nothing about matter coming from nothing in the Big Bang. If you feel I missed something, cite the relevant parts. 

oh, sure.

"A large body of astrophysical observations now clearly points to a beginning for our universe about 15 billion years ago in a cataclysmic outpouring of elementary particles. There is, in fact, no evidence that any of the particles of matter with which we are now familiar existed before this great event." Louis J. Clavelli, Ph.D., Professor of Physics, University of Alabama

One of the major hypotheses on which modern cosmology is based is that the Universe originated in an explosion called the Big Bang, in which all energy (and matter) that exists today was created." Eric S. Rowland, UC Santa Cruz


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Lol. Your reading

Lol. Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

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First of all, you are not my

First of all, you are not my friend. Second of all, if I am the problem, then why did God create me as I am?

 

angelobrazil wrote:

God gives enough light to the ones, that honestly search for him, and they will find him. And he gives enough darkness to the ones that deny and do not want him, so they will not find him.

"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-10 ESV

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-10 NIV

Does God want everyone to repent? or does He not? Is He powerful enough to accomplish His desires? or is He not?

 


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RobbyPants wrote:What about

RobbyPants wrote:
What about the ones that honestly search for other gods because they had the rotten luck of being born in the wrong country? What about the ones who go searching for meaning and find drink-the-Kool-Aid-and-die cults in Jonestown? The problem is, people can find anything if they look hard enough; that doesn't make it real. There are seriously 1.5 billion people in this world that will tell you that if you look hard enough, Allah will show you his Truth.

i think that link explains well your question. Sorry if i dont take the time to write by myself the answer.

http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp062.asp


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blacklight915 wrote:First of

blacklight915 wrote:

First of all, you are not my friend.

that was just a " modo di dire ", a way os saying. But, even if you do not recognize it, i consider myself your friend, because without asking anything back, i am taking my time to answer your questions, and to share with you what i consider being the greatest gift i have received in my life.

blacklight915 wrote:

Second of all, if I am the problem, then why did God create me as I am?

 God has given you free will. You are free to accept Gods free gift of forgiveness, and eternal life, or to reject it. If you reject it, you cannot blame God, or someone else for your decision. You are responsable for your decisions, anyone else.

 

Quote:

Does God want everyone to repent? or does He not? Is He powerful enough to accomplish His desires? or is He not?

yes, God wants that nobody goes to hell, but that all men are saved. And he has made it possible trough Christs sacrifice. But he has given each of us free will. He will not obligue anyone to get saved. God reaches his goals, even if not all people will respond positively to his call for salvation.

Isaiah 55:11

New International Version (NIV)

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
    It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

 


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If your god exists, he

If your god exists, he denies us free will by denying us evidence of his existence, therefore making it literally impossible to have faith in him.

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I followed your link, and I

I followed your link, and I noticed this statement made by the author: "What you believe is directly under your control.". I'd like to point out that statement is quite false: we do not get to freely choose what we do and do not believe.

 

angelobrazil wrote:

But, even if you do not recognize it, i consider myself your friend, because without asking anything back, i am taking my time to answer your questions, and to share with you what i consider being the greatest gift i have received in my life.

You have made several false statements about me. I do not consider people who do such things to be friends.

 

angelobrazil wrote:

If you reject it, you cannot blame God

Yes, I can. You just stated God was the one who gave me free will. That makes Him responsible for my ability to choose.

 

angelobrazil wrote:

God reaches his goals, even if not all people will respond positively to his call for salvation.

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
    It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Okay, but that means His main goal and desire is to not infringe upon free will, not to save everyone from Hell.

 


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Peggotty wrote:angelobrazil

Peggotty wrote:

angelobrazil wrote:
..All creation testifies Gods existence..

Is everything in the world therefore evidence of God's 'intelligent design'?

Umm...hello....noticed you forgot to answer my question so I'm restating it here!

Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
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angelobrazil wrote:oh,

angelobrazil wrote:

oh, sure.

"A large body of astrophysical observations now clearly points to a beginning for our universe about 15 billion years ago in a cataclysmic outpouring of elementary particles. There is, in fact, no evidence that any of the particles of matter with which we are now familiar existed before this great event." Louis J. Clavelli, Ph.D., Professor of Physics, University of Alabama

One of the major hypotheses on which modern cosmology is based is that the Universe originated in an explosion called the Big Bang, in which all energy (and matter) that exists today was created." Eric S. Rowland, UC Santa Cruz

Thanks. That's the first I've ever read of someone talking about the matter being created. I've always heard it refered to the singularity (which you were quoted mentioning in the post above this one of yours that I quoted). My understanding is the singularity was all of the matter. 

 

angelobrazil wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:
What about the ones that honestly search for other gods because they had the rotten luck of being born in the wrong country? What about the ones who go searching for meaning and find drink-the-Kool-Aid-and-die cults in Jonestown? The problem is, people can find anything if they look hard enough; that doesn't make it real. There are seriously 1.5 billion people in this world that will tell you that if you look hard enough, Allah will show you his Truth.

i think that link explains well your question. Sorry if i dont take the time to write by myself the answer.

http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp062.asp

Okay, so he broke his response out into three sections:

God's Standard of Accountability 

This is interesting. It looks like you just need to "follow God's law" to get into heaven. What that means, I can't begin to tell you, because he changed his mind on what his laws were numerous times in the Bible, but this might reference "leading a Christ-like life". I've heard that term thrown around in apologetics quite a bit.

That being said, if a Muslim can get into heaven by "following God's law", does it stand to reason that an atheist could as well?

 

Truth and The Luck of the Draw

I'm not really sure where he's going with this. The "way out" he describes isn't really consistent with what I see in most forms of Christianity. Now, I realize that in and of itself doesn't make it wrong per se, but it illustrates the point that people will pull whatever interpretation of hell they want out of the Bible; anywhere from unbaptized babies going to hell to Rob Bell's hell-doesn't-exist ideas.

It looks like he's just stating his opinion, here.

 

Investigating Truth-Claims

This is mostly completely false. There is nothing written in the Bible that is a first-hand account of Jesus. Not one word penned in it was written by someone who met him. The oldest portions were written thirty to forty years after his death. There's actually an entire sub forum for that discussion right on these boards.

So, it doesn't look like he bring anything to the table here to put Omer's fears to rest.

 

Take home message: the author has nothing more than his own opinions, and doesn't really do much to back them. Also this doesn't answer the question about what happens to someone who follows a religion that doesn't result in them "following God's law". That situation is equally tragic, given that the biggest determining factor of a person's religion is then one in which they were raised.


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Vastet wrote:angelobrazil

Vastet wrote:
angelobrazil wrote:
According to the standard Big Bang theory, matter were created at the Big Bang. There was no matter beyond the singularity.
Your ignorance of matter and energy is mind boggling. I'm guessing you were home schooled.

 

As Vastet mentioned, matter and energy are interchangeable.  You may have seen e=mc2 shirts before.  I will say this one more time, because this debate is getting boring.  There is no such thing as "CREATE" the way you are implying it.  Created, the way we are implying it, simply means that the matter/energy configuration has changed.  You don't "create" a fist from nothing, you change the configuration of your fingers... so on and so forth.

You are saying that god or whatever created the universe FROM NOTHING.  The standard cosmological model (actually any cosmological model that wants to be taken seriously) MUST take into consideration the most basic logical fact that you cannot get something from nothing.  The energy created by the Big Bang created matter you ignoramus.  Not one of us stated that it came from nothing, that is your assertion and your explanation. You are saying that god came from nothing, and created the universe from nothing.  It is idiotic beyond comprehension that you actually believe that... all science aside, how do you actually wrap your mind around that?  Your actual explanation is such, "there is no such thing as infinite regress, therefore GOD, and the universe came from nothing, therefore GOD made it from nothing".  It actually hurts my head trying to sink myself to that level of incoherence. 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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RobbyPants wrote:This is

RobbyPants wrote:

This is interesting. It looks like you just need to "follow God's law" to get into heaven.

Theoretically yes. Practically, that isn't how it works, because no one beside Jesus was able to follow God's law 100%. That is why Jesus , the son of God, came to save the world.

RobbyPants wrote:

What that means, I can't begin to tell you, because he changed his mind on what his laws were numerous times in the Bible

absolutely not. More of this :

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/topics/law-god

 

 


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Ktulu wrote:You are saying

Ktulu wrote:
You are saying that god came from nothing

 

Could you point out where i said this ?

Ktulu wrote:

 It is idiotic beyond comprehension that you actually believe that...

I have given enough quotes of scientists, which do actually believe, everything physical, aka. matter, space, and time, began with the Big Bang. So if you disagree, you should blame science, not me.

Ktulu wrote:

all science aside, how do you actually wrap your mind around that?  Your actual explanation is such, "there is no such thing as infinite regress, therefore GOD, and the universe came from nothing, therefore GOD made it from nothing".  It actually hurts my head trying to sink myself to that level of incoherence. 

What i believe, is, that a eternal Creator, created the universe, out of nothing physical. If you have a more compelling explanation of the existence of the universe, how about you present it ?


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blacklight915 wrote:Yes, I

blacklight915 wrote:

Yes, I can. You just stated God was the one who gave me free will. That makes Him responsible for my ability to choose.

 

Thats correct. But be able to make choices, means also to carry responsability to make the right choices. God cannot be responsable, if you make the wrong  decisions.


blacklight915
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angelobrazil wrote:God

angelobrazil wrote:

God cannot be responsable, if you make the wrong  decisions.

Yes, He can. The only reason I can make a wrong decision, is because He gave me the ability to do so.

 


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angelobrazil

angelobrazil wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:

This is interesting. It looks like you just need to "follow God's law" to get into heaven.

Theoretically yes. Practically, that isn't how it works, because no one beside Jesus was able to follow God's law 100%. That is why Jesus , the son of God, came to save the world.

My wife feels similarly (she doesn't believe in hell). Ironically, there are plenty of non-Christians who do a better job than many Christians.

 

angelobrazil wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:

What that means, I can't begin to tell you, because he changed his mind on what his laws were numerous times in the Bible

absolutely not. More of this :

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/topics/law-god 

I'd say that's one way to interpret it. The things he commanded people to do changed quite a bit over the course of several hundred years. This isn't surprising. The god people were looking for in the first portion of the Old Testament is different than the one they wanted later in the  Old Testament, and certainly different than the one in the New Testament. It makes sense that he would demand different things.