Tell it to this baby's mother.

Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15778
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Tell it to this baby's mother.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/12/chicago-baby-shooting/1982235/

^ 6 month old baby SHOT 5 TIMES!

But according to the NRA 310,000,000 guns are not enough.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 Did you notice where this

 Did you notice where this happened? Chicago has far more strict gun laws than you have said you support for the federal level. They have the most restrictive gun laws in the nation. Illinois is the only state in the nation that completely bans concealed carry and also mostly bans open carry.

To purchase any gun (including hunting guns like shotguns and rifles) or any ammunition you have to have a Firearms Owner Identification Card which are issued directly by the police department after an extensive background check that takes 30 days. Then when you purchase a firearm the seller is required to call the police department to verify that the FOID card is authentic and then you have to wait for 24 hours to take possession of a rifle or shotgun or 72 hours for a handgun. (In fact, until recently it was illegal to even drive through the state as a non-resident with a gun cased in your trunk without a FOID, that law was voided in People vs. Holmes (2011) by the Supreme Court.) The FOID has to be renewed every 10 years. 

The city of Chicago takes it a step further and requires registration which includes another background check, fingerprinting, firearms safety course, permission from the police and $100 which then has to be renewed every 3 years to get a "Chicago Firearms Permit" (this is in addition to the state permit). All magazines larger than 12 rounds are illegal as well as everything that will be banned under any of the currently proposed federal "assault weapons" bans.  

Other laws that Illinois has include a requirement that all guns sold come with a trigger lock, gun owners can be found liable if a minor gets access to their gun and use it in a crime and even airguns larger than .18 caliber are regulated as firearms. 

Chicago is gun control advocates wet dream. It is virtually impossible to legally own a gun in Chicago, yet it has become one of the most violent and dangerous cities in our country. 

So exactly what law do you propose that would have prevented this tragedy? Because they already have laws far more restrictive than anything you have claimed to support on this site. In fact, you have said multiple times that you "do not want to ban all guns" while Chicago has effectively done so to the point that no sane legal gun owner is going to live in the city. 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-08/news/ct-met-gun-lawsuits-20120308_1_gun-rights-gun-control-gun-owners

As of March 2012, Chicago had only issued a little over 15,000 Chicago Firearms Permits, out of a population of 2.7 million. That means roughly 0.5% of people in Chicago have a legal firearm (compared to the national average where 30-40% of people own a legal firearm). I can't find any stats, but do you care to guess how many of those legal guns were used to commit crimes? My bet is near 0. Funny thing about criminals, when you make it hard for law abiding citizens to get guns, the criminals just buy them illegally. Chicago is a perfect example of how the idea of gun control is an absolute failure.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15778
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: Did

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Did you notice where this happened? Chicago has far more strict gun laws than you have said you support for the federal level. They have the most restrictive gun laws in the nation. Illinois is the only state in the nation that completely bans concealed carry and also mostly bans open carry.

To purchase any gun (including hunting guns like shotguns and rifles) or any ammunition you have to have a Firearms Owner Identification Card which are issued directly by the police department after an extensive background check that takes 30 days. Then when you purchase a firearm the seller is required to call the police department to verify that the FOID card is authentic and then you have to wait for 24 hours to take possession of a rifle or shotgun or 72 hours for a handgun. (In fact, until recently it was illegal to even drive through the state as a non-resident with a gun cased in your trunk without a FOID, that law was voided in People vs. Holmes (2011) by the Supreme Court.) The FOID has to be renewed every 10 years. 

The city of Chicago takes it a step further and requires registration which includes another background check, fingerprinting, firearms safety course, permission from the police and $100 which then has to be renewed every 3 years to get a "Chicago Firearms Permit" (this is in addition to the state permit). All magazines larger than 12 rounds are illegal as well as everything that will be banned under any of the currently proposed federal "assault weapons" bans.  

Other laws that Illinois has include a requirement that all guns sold come with a trigger lock, gun owners can be found liable if a minor gets access to their gun and use it in a crime and even airguns larger than .18 caliber are regulated as firearms. 

Chicago is gun control advocates wet dream. It is virtually impossible to legally own a gun in Chicago, yet it has become one of the most violent and dangerous cities in our country. 

So exactly what law do you propose that would have prevented this tragedy? Because they already have laws far more restrictive than anything you have claimed to support on this site. In fact, you have said multiple times that you "do not want to ban all guns" while Chicago has effectively done so to the point that no sane legal gun owner is going to live in the city. 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-08/news/ct-met-gun-lawsuits-20120308_1_gun-rights-gun-control-gun-owners

As of March 2012, Chicago had only issued a little over 15,000 Chicago Firearms Permits, out of a population of 2.7 million. That means roughly 0.5% of people in Chicago have a legal firearm (compared to the national average where 30-40% of people own a legal firearm). I can't find any stats, but do you care to guess how many of those legal guns were used to commit crimes? My bet is near 0. Funny thing about criminals, when you make it hard for law abiding citizens to get guns, the criminals just buy them illegally. Chicago is a perfect example of how the idea of gun control is an absolute failure.  

 We have an epidemic of gun death. We have domestic murders. Just last month my sister who lives in a nice quite suburb told me about a guy two blocks away who murdered his two kids and his wife and then himself. That wasn't in a gang neighborhood, it was in the suburbs. Gun death isn't just gang death. Gun death is domestic murder, mental illness, depression, suicide.

Again this isn't about taking guns away from law abiding citizens. THIS IS ABOUT 310,000,000 firearms in circulation.

You masturbate about business time after time acting as if I cant or don't comprehend it's goals. Gun manufactures don't give one flying fuck about society. They prey upon it. The goal of ANY BUSINESS is to maintain and or increase growth and profits. Keep society unstable economically, keep them in fear, and you have a buying base.

But when you have economic stability, more home stability, people will feel less of a feeling to buy a gun legally or illegally, less sales and less profits for gun manufacturers.

Oh and just yesterday got a story of a 5 year old who shot himself accidentally with his dads gun.

Keep defending gun manufactures, maybe the body count can get even higher.

That baby's mother  in this story is in the same class as the Newton victims, the victim class. Now stop debating me seriously, look all the survivors of all types of gun deaths  and debate them see how far you get.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote: We have an

Brian37 wrote:

 We have an epidemic of gun death. We have domestic murders. Just last month my sister who lives in a nice quite suburb told me about a guy two blocks away who murdered his two kids and his wife and then himself. That wasn't in a gang neighborhood, it was in the suburbs. Gun death isn't just gang death. Gun death is domestic murder, mental illness, depression, suicide.

So how do you solve that problem?

 

Brian37 wrote:

Again this isn't about taking guns away from law abiding citizens. THIS IS ABOUT 310,000,000 firearms in circulation.

So what do you propose we do about it?

 

Brian37 wrote:

You masturbate about business time after time acting as if I cant or don't comprehend it's goals. Gun manufactures don't give one flying fuck about society. They prey upon it. The goal of ANY BUSINESS is to maintain and or increase growth and profits. Keep society unstable economically, keep them in fear, and you have a buying base.

The gun business profits from.... selling guns. Wow, imagine that. You profit from clogging peoples arteries, murderer. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

But when you have economic stability, more home stability, people will feel less of a feeling to buy a gun legally or illegally, less sales and less profits for gun manufacturers.

Actually the statistics indicate that gun nuts like me tend to be people who have relatively high and stable incomes. Guns are not a cheap hobby. Economic stability does decrease crime though, so why are you so focused on the guns? Shouldn't we be more focused on creating economic prosperity?

 

Brian37 wrote:
 

Oh and just yesterday got a story of a 5 year old who shot himself accidentally with his dads gun.

Ok, so how do you prevent that? I thought you were not for outlawing guns. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Keep defending gun manufactures, maybe the body count can get even higher.

That baby's mother  in this story is in the same class as the Newton victims, the victim class. Now stop debating me seriously, look all the survivors of all types of gun deaths  and debate them see how far you get.

I'm sorry I took you seriously. You think I would learn that reality and facts don't go far with you. Actually, I realize they don't but I think that by providing evidence of reality that some lurkers out there might bother getting educated on the subject before forming opinions.

 

I will ask you again, exactly what types of laws do you propose as solutions to the problems you say exist? Or are you just whining about a problem and have no serious ideas for a solution?

The babies mother is not a victim, she was involved with a guy she knew was a hardened gang member with a "long criminal history", she was shot in the knee as a result of this gang activity yet remained with him knowingly putting her baby at risk. At the very least she is guilty of negligence. If you know someone is involved with criminal gang activity, as a parent you should keep your children far away from them. The child is the victim here and the problem isn't guns, it is the gangs who probably make their money from drugs and have access to guns whether they are legal or illegal.

  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15778
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond,Our ills are because

Beyond,

Our ills are because of lack of economic stability, gun manufactures need that instability to keep fear up so that people will buy guns legally and illegally. Again, don't debate me, go explain to this baby's mother why we need 310,000,000 guns in circulation.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Beyond,Our

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond,

Our ills are because of lack of economic stability, gun manufactures need that instability to keep fear up so that people will buy guns legally and illegally. Again, don't debate me, go explain to this baby's mother why we need 310,000,000 guns in circulation.

So gun manufacturers somehow are engineering our economic instability behind the scenes? Is there some shadow government that they are running with the intent of destroying the economy? Are gun manufactures in league with the Illuminati?

 

The baby's mother almost certainly had many illegal guns in her house. She is dating a guy who is deeply involved in gang activity. And given what little history we know, she is probably going to stay with him and they will continue having illegal guns and her boyfriend is probably going to go murder someone as soon as he gets out of the hospital.

 

I will ask you again, do you have any ideas for solutions?  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15778
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond,

Our ills are because of lack of economic stability, gun manufactures need that instability to keep fear up so that people will buy guns legally and illegally. Again, don't debate me, go explain to this baby's mother why we need 310,000,000 guns in circulation.

So gun manufacturers somehow are engineering our economic instability behind the scenes? Is there some shadow government that they are running with the intent of destroying the economy? Are gun manufactures in league with the Illuminati?

 

The baby's mother almost certainly had many illegal guns in her house. She is dating a guy who is deeply involved in gang activity. And given what little history we know, she is probably going to stay with him and they will continue having illegal guns and her boyfriend is probably going to go murder someone as soon as he gets out of the hospital.

 

I will ask you again, do you have any ideas for solutions?  

 

Economic instability ALSO causes domestic murder and suicide. This is about ALL TYPES of gun death and that on average 32 people a day die from gun death.

And yes I do think the gun manufactures with their voting habits, not as a conspiracy, but a climate vote for the same side any other big industry does. They vote for their self interest without regards to the damage long term it does to society. The same mentality caused the great depression. The same mentality caused our recession. The same voting habits do not improve economic stability, it simply scapegoats the bottom two classes to hide the fact that it is purely about profits.

As long as big business cares about extracting and not stability we will end up a third world country and your voting habits contribute to that CLIMATE as well.

310,000,000 guns in circulation, again don't debate me, I debate that mom and tell her why she is to blame for her baby's death.

Please make it quick because by this time tomorrow 32 more people will be dead because of gun use.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Economic

Brian37 wrote:

Economic instability ALSO causes domestic murder and suicide. This is about ALL TYPES of gun death and that on average 32 people a day die from gun death.

Economic instability tends to increase all crime and all suicide regardless of what tool is used. So again, why not focus on creating economic prosperity rather than focus on eliminating a particular tool? (Besides, you have claimed you do not support banning all guns, so exactly what do you support?)

 

Brian37 wrote:
 

And yes I do think the gun manufactures with their voting habits, not as a conspiracy, but a climate vote for the same side any other big industry does. They vote for their self interest without regards to the damage long term it does to society. The same mentality caused the great depression. The same mentality caused our recession. The same voting habits do not improve economic stability, it simply scapegoats the bottom two classes to hide the fact that it is purely about profits.

I can guarantee that no one involved with gun manufactures voted for the people who have been in political power in Chicago for the last 80+ years. I doubt they were enthusiastic supporters of Obama or our Senate. You know why the economy in Chicago sucks? Because it is a progressives wet dream list of policies and the city is bankrupt. Your economic policies work as well as your gun control policies- not at all. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

As long as big business cares about extracting and not stability we will end up a third world country and your voting habits contribute to that CLIMATE as well.

So the unstable economy is the fault of "big business"? 

 

Brian37 wrote:

310,000,000 guns in circulation, again don't debate me, I debate that mom and tell her why she is to blame for her baby's death.

She isn't here. You are. If you can get her here, I will be happy to debate her and tell her exactly what kind of a douche she is leaving her child in the care of a known gang member. I am generally not in favor of government intervention, but in this case I would have a hard time complaining if child protective services took custody of any other children she has and threw her ass in jail for child endangerment; I will tell her that right to her face.

I don't run away from debates in case you have not noticed. Do you have anything substantive to provide, or are you stuck on emotional appeals with no rational thought behind them? Odd that you start a thread and have no interest in discussing the subject. Usually it is impossible to determine who "wins" an internet debate and it might be a bit vain to claim victory but my first response must have really pwned you since you apparently have no response except to tell me to debate someone who as far as we know has never been here. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Please make it quick because by this time tomorrow 32 more people will be dead because of gun use.

So how do you propose we prevent it? Do you have even a single idea? I have many ideas but I already hashed them out in detail. What is your idea? Wail like a baby about the problem and point fingers of blame all while doing nothing to alleviate it? 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13211
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
The real problem here is

The real problem here is gang violence. Organised crime will always have weapons, because they compete against organised crime AND have to worry about cops. You can whittle them down more by decriminalising the very products that sustain them than by putting restrictions on weapons. Take away their income sources and provide education and work and they'll dry up.
Weapons restrictions can work on the random guy shooting up his workplace or the pissed off kid at school or the psycho in a bell tower, but it won't stop organised crime from getting firearms. They have too many global connections.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4199
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
for christ's sake, brian,

for christ's sake, brian, cut the histrionics and answer his fucking question.  how should legislation be changed, particularly in the case of illinois?  everybody's waiting for your constructive ideas, you can quit screaming about "climate" now (which is apparently your new buzz word).

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15778
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:for christ's

iwbiek wrote:

for christ's sake, brian, cut the histrionics and answer his fucking question.  how should legislation be changed, particularly in the case of illinois?  everybody's waiting for your constructive ideas, you can quit screaming about "climate" now (which is apparently your new buzz word).

No this is a trap, it is simply another excuse for him to say "do nothing".

The solution nationally and not just Illinois, is to go after the manufactures and break up their monopoly on lobbying. Secondly put in the recommended laws such as universal background checks, bans on assault weapons, and large clips for both riffles and hand guns.

BUT on top of that improve the conditions of our economy over all. Reduce the pay gap, improve education, improve health care and mental health care, and invest in the affected areas so people are not desperate.

This is smoke and mirrors. Again, that mother is a victim regardless of what the husband was involved in. Conditions caused it just like conditions cause a spouse to murder their wife or kids, conditions cause someone to commit suicide and or accidentally shoot themselves or someone else. Conditions allow mentally ill or disgruntled people to commit mass shootings.

This is a national epidemic, not just a Chicago one. Part of the problem is you are dealing with 310 MILLION guns in circulation and an industry that is concerned about profits, not safety, not conditions of the environments these guns end up in.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:No this is a

Brian37 wrote:

No this is a trap, it is simply another excuse for him to say "do nothing".

Yep, I am real sneaky asking you if you have any solutions. Is that an admission that you know all the empirical evidence suggests that your solutions will not work? 

 

Brian37 wrote:

The solution nationally and not just Illinois, is to go after the manufactures and break up their monopoly on lobbying.

Gun manufacturers have a monopoly on lobbying? Is someone preventing pro gun control groups from lobbying? 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Secondly put in the recommended laws such as universal background checks, bans on assault weapons, and large clips for both riffles and hand guns.

If it doesn't work in Illinois, on what basis do you think it would work on a national level?

 

Brian37 wrote:

BUT on top of that improve the conditions of our economy over all. Reduce the pay gap, improve education, improve health care and mental health care, and invest in the affected areas so people are not desperate.

Start voting libertarian and that would solve a lot of those problems, but let us try to stick to the question of gun control and whether or not we should have it. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

This is smoke and mirrors. Again, that mother is a victim regardless of what the husband was involved in. Conditions caused it just like conditions cause a spouse to murder their wife or kids, conditions cause someone to commit suicide and or accidentally shoot themselves or someone else. Conditions allow mentally ill or disgruntled people to commit mass shootings.

So your solution is universal background checks (already part of the law), banning "assault weapons" (guns that account for less than 1% of all gun deaths), and banning large clips (still completely unclear how that makes any significant difference in crime). Your position is nowhere near extreme enough to make a difference. The most common guns used for crime are cheap guns which are not "assault weapons" under any current definition and tend to have standard magazine sizes. Why do you shy away from banning the weapons that are actually used in such crimes if you believe that banning is the solution? 

 

Brian37 wrote:

This is a national epidemic, not just a Chicago one. Part of the problem is you are dealing with 310 MILLION guns in circulation and an industry that is concerned about profits, not safety, not conditions of the environments these guns end up in.

Nationally the violent crime rate has been steadily trending down even as the number of guns has been increasing and nationally, gun control laws have been loosening. Oops, I'm sorry, am I dealing with facts again? In Chicago the violent crime rate has been rising. It is quite obvious that Chicago has some problem that is not shared by the rest of the country. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X