Once again the media is to blame

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Once again the media is to blame

I am sure a few people had a rough time on the Carnival cruise, but for the most part, I'm suspecting that it wasn't really that bad. I can imagine I had it a lot worse at other times during my life.

Once, here in Florida, a hurricane took out the power for over seven days. We lost all of the food in our frig and freezers. We used up the canned food and dry food pretty quickly and the stores were empty of food and water.

We ended up using our camping equipment to cook food along with a charcoal grill. My brother and I had to fish in the lake to get fish and we also collected fresh water muscles and steamed them.

With no electricity we couldn't pump water (we were on well water) so we couldn't flush the toilets. We ended up digging a hole out back and dumping out waste in there. We didn't have convenient bags to use on the toilet so we had to scoop the poop out manually.

I blame the media for hyping the story.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-carnival-cruise-ship-no-mayflower-20130215,0,908004.story

 

 


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 It is all about

 It is all about perspective and expectations. When you are expecting to be on a luxury cruise gambling, drinking and having all you can eat lobster and steak, it is pretty shocking when you get peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and your bathroom doesn't work. Americans in general are completely ignorant of what real discomfort is, so simply not having their luxuries is considered painful. Then add in a news media that loves to make a big deal of anything and yeah, you have these whiny bs stories and no doubt Carnival is going to have to pay a big settlement to avoid all the lawsuits from these "poor" people who "suffered" so much. It is the same reason we sit with a straight face and call people with smart phones, cable tv, a car or two and are 100 pounds overweight "living in poverty".  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: It is

Beyond Saving wrote:

 It is all about perspective and expectations. When you are expecting to be on a luxury cruise gambling, drinking and having all you can eat lobster and steak, it is pretty shocking when you get peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and your bathroom doesn't work. Americans in general are completely ignorant of what real discomfort is, so simply not having their luxuries is considered painful. Then add in a news media that loves to make a big deal of anything and yeah, you have these whiny bs stories and no doubt Carnival is going to have to pay a big settlement to avoid all the lawsuits from these "poor" people who "suffered" so much. It is the same reason we sit with a straight face and call people with smart phones, cable tv, a car or two and are 100 pounds overweight "living in poverty".  

Yeah and I don't ever want to be a Carnival Cruise again. I was one it once and wasn't impressed. They are a low end, low buget, party cruise. I'd pay double to go on a higher end, small cruise line with top chefs and destinations.


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To add to what Beyond said,

To add to what Beyond said, it also takes a certain type of personality to enjoy cruises for the most part. On average, people who go rock climbing and white water rafting and even camping don't tend to take cruises. It's people who like to go to resorts and lie in the sun drinking at the bar. Such people are less equipped emotionally to deal with inconvenience.

Am curious about litigation you mention though, Beyond. I read statements from multiple high profile lawyers saying suing the cruise line is a fools errand doomed to fail. That cruise lines have their asses covered so well you'd need to be injured for them to even consider taking the case. Not so much?

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Vastet wrote:To add to what

Vastet wrote:
To add to what Beyond said, it also takes a certain type of personality to enjoy cruises for the most part. On average, people who go rock climbing and white water rafting and even camping don't tend to take cruises. It's people who like to go to resorts and lie in the sun drinking at the bar. Such people are less equipped emotionally to deal with inconvenience. Am curious about litigation you mention though, Beyond. I read statements from multiple high profile lawyers saying suing the cruise line is a fools errand doomed to fail. That cruise lines have their asses covered so well you'd need to be injured for them to even consider taking the case. Not so much?

This is the United States, it wouldn't be the first time a ridiculous lawsuit was successful. Mostly it will depend on the judge and if the judge decides that the exceptional circumstances of this particular situation make the various legal waivers that were signed beforehand void. Given that Carnival has admitted that they had engine trouble with the ship before, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if a judge ruled to allow lawsuits on the basis of negligence. In which case Carnival will probably attempt to reach a settlement deal even if they think they can win the case in front of a jury because the cost of the trial, plus keeping the story of what happened here alive throughout the course of the entire trial would be very bad for their business- settling it quickly and getting it out of the news cycle so that people forget would probably be their main goal. 

Carnival probably could win a jury trial, but are they going to take all that bad publicity? Probably not. Such is the story of lawsuits against large corporations, they attempt to get it dismissed and if it can't be dismissed 99% of the time they offer a settlement even if they are in the right just to make the issue disappear. We should know fairly soon as the first couple of cases hit the courts. The decision made by the first judge on whether or not to dismiss the case will be crucial and for that I don't think anyone can predict what the judge will do, it is simply too subjective of a decision.     

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I saw the same thing where

I saw the same thing where you must prove personal injury to win. I also know Carnival will hurt for a while but then they will recover because the public as a whole has a short term memory.

 


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Vastet wrote:\It's people

Vastet wrote:
\It's people who like to go to resorts and lie in the sun drinking at the bar. Such people are less equipped emotionally to deal with inconvenience.

hey, i'm exactly this type of person and i've dealt with more travel inconveniences than i can remember.  i slept in two airports on a single trip once because of delays, i've been snowed in in JFK airport, i've been swindled by a crooked train conductor in romania, i've tried desperately to nap in a sweltering bus broken down for two hours by the side of a macedonian highway, i've been in a european water park where the concessions were grossly understocked so only about 30% of the people could order food and there was nearly a riot, etc., etc.

this is literally the first time i've ever written any of that down.  sure, i was angry and grumbled at the time, but i didn't take to the blogosphere for sympathy, and i certainly didn't try to take anyone to court, and by the time i navigated my way out of the bad situation, i usually considered it had been a pretty cool day after all. 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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iwbiek wrote:Vastet

iwbiek wrote:

Vastet wrote:
\It's people who like to go to resorts and lie in the sun drinking at the bar. Such people are less equipped emotionally to deal with inconvenience.

hey, i'm exactly this type of person and i've dealt with more travel inconveniences than i can remember.  i slept in two airports on a single trip once because of delays, i've been snowed in in JFK airport, i've been swindled by a crooked train conductor in romania, i've tried desperately to nap in a sweltering bus broken down for two hours by the side of a macedonian highway, i've been in a european water park where the concessions were grossly understocked so only about 30% of the people could order food and there was nearly a riot, etc., etc.

this is literally the first time i've ever written any of that down.  sure, i was angry and grumbled at the time, but i didn't take to the blogosphere for sympathy, and i certainly didn't try to take anyone to court, and by the time i navigated my way out of the bad situation, i usually considered it had been a pretty cool day after all. 

I agree with iwbiek. I have had some crazy and bad experiences in travel. But in retrospect, it enhanced the experiences and always made for a good funny story around the bar.

Hell, me and some biker bros got to sharing some stories about everything from bad motorcycle runs to bad overseas vacations one night and all of us ended up laughing so hard that people around us probably thought we were crazy.

I remember one guy talked about getting into it with some people in Germany (too long of a story to repeat here) and ending up in a foreign jail.He and the whole crowd were busting a gut with laughter.

 

 

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One thing that upsets the

One thing that upsets the fuck out of me is when I hear stories about planes getting stuck on the tarmac for hours because of weather. Now while better policy in safety would help, we are mostly a fucking selfish consuming society who thinks we are owed the world which drives the airlines to push to hard sometimes. I always think when I hear these stories what the fuck do you want the pilot to do, take off in dangerous weather and crash the plane?

But the accident with this ship and the other one that hit the rocks in Europe  is because of one thing ultimately, a rush for the buck and consumer impatience. The pilot of the boat that hit the rocks was driven by a company who's mantra was to give the passengers "the most for their money", that drove him and his ego, and lack of safety in redundancy in technology, to go off course in order to give the passengers a "spectacular view". The totality of climate and ego, not one person but climate.

Maybe if this ship had had a company who actually slowed down and took the time to inspect the ship properly this would not have happened.

This is the same rush for the buck that has yanked the new 787s off the runways. When the fuck is big business actually going to start caring about the quality of what they do rather than chase money all the time. There is a hidden cost to rushing and the cost is accidents like this.

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Brian37 wrote:One thing that

Brian37 wrote:

One thing that upsets the fuck out of me is when I hear stories about planes getting stuck on the tarmac for hours because of weather. Now while better policy in safety would help, we are mostly a fucking selfish consuming society who thinks we are owed the world which drives the airlines to push to hard sometimes. I always think when I hear these stories what the fuck do you want the pilot to do, take off in dangerous weather and crash the plane?

I had a bad experience coming back from a, of all things, a Carnival cruise (my first and last). We were flying out of Puerto Rico and the plane had been in the air for about 30 minutes. The plane was jammed pack with crying kids sitting on their parents laps. We had paid originally for a seat for our 8 month old child but they told us we couldn't do it because they needed the seat. We were really pissed because it was out money to reserve the seat for a "child seat" which we carried with us.

The plane turned around, landed, then proceeded to sit on the tarmac for over an hour with no consideration for the people. Finally, someone with some brains decided to let us off. We all piled out in to the airport to wait for a new plane. An hour later, we got word that we had to travel to the other side of the airport to get a new plane.

The only saving aspect of this delay was some rich people had chartered a private plane and we were able to use our child seat.

 


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

One thing that upsets the fuck out of me is when I hear stories about planes getting stuck on the tarmac for hours because of weather. Now while better policy in safety would help, we are mostly a fucking selfish consuming society who thinks we are owed the world which drives the airlines to push to hard sometimes. I always think when I hear these stories what the fuck do you want the pilot to do, take off in dangerous weather and crash the plane?

I had a bad experience coming back from a, of all things, a Carnival cruise (my first and last). We were flying out of Puerto Rico and the plane had been in the air for about 30 minutes. The plane was jammed pack with crying kids sitting on their parents laps. We had paid originally for a seat for our 8 month old child but they told us we couldn't do it because they needed the seat. We were really pissed because it was out money to reserve the seat for a "child seat" which we carried with us.

The plane turned around, landed, then proceeded to sit on the tarmac for over an hour with no consideration for the people. Finally, someone with some brains decided to let us off. We all piled out in to the airport to wait for a new plane. An hour later, we got word that we had to travel to the other side of the airport to get a new plane.

The only saving aspect of this delay was some rich people had chartered a private plane and we were able to use our child seat.

 

What I am saying is that shit like this happens mostly because the company wants money and rushes which causes jams like this. But it does not help that we as consumers act like we are owed the world.

For example, one is not entitled to bitch out the flight attendant because they got the wrong drink, or because the plane isn't taking off on time due to weather.

Same when you go out to eat. Unless you know for sure that the wait staff is simply being lazy, lots of times a business will run short staffed to save money and fuckwad customers bitch because they have no clue what the employees go through.

I put the blame on big business 100%. They market utopias and "me me me me me me" then we buy into it and then turn around and push them and then they cut corners and shit like this happens.

It is a product of climate and greed that causes shit like this.

 

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When I flew to Japan my

When I flew to Japan my flight had a 2 hour delay in Chicago, I asked the desk what the issue was, they said it was a hurricane over the Pacific. Instead of bitching about the delay, I thanked them for being more concerned about safety.

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 See, Brian is exactly the

 

See, Brian is exactly the kind of person who would sit on a jury and award these people millions of dollars because the corporation is always evil and all accidents would be avoidable if the corporation only cared. If only no one wanted to make a profit, why people would fart butterflies and accidents would never happen. He is so confident in this that he is willing to condemn Carnival even though no one has any idea what caused the fire yet, let alone whether or not such an event was foreseeable. Evidence? We don't need no stinkin evidence- GUILTY!

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: See,

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

See, Brian is exactly the kind of person who would sit on a jury and award these people millions of dollars because the corporation is always evil and all accidents would be avoidable if the corporation only cared. If only no one wanted to make a profit, why people would fart butterflies and accidents would never happen. He is so confident in this that he is willing to condemn Carnival even though no one has any idea what caused the fire yet, let alone whether or not such an event was foreseeable. Evidence? We don't need no stinkin evidence- GUILTY!

Beyond, get this through your head. NOT ALL BUSINESSES ARE "EVIL" but the climate OVER ALL is lopsided and is allowing an extraction climate. Until you learn it is NOT all about YOU you wont understand how wrong you are.

The fact that that industry even has a "fuck you clause" in the contract when you buy the ticket says they win even when something goes wrong. Same damned climate that allows banks to sell junk and win even when they lose. Same climate that allows wild speculation that leads to the crap we are in now.

CLIMATE CLIMATE CLIMATE. Be it the carelessness of an employee or lack of safety redundancy in the ship, the fact remains that it is too much rushing as a CLIMATE. Same stupid fucking reason assholes tale gate you. Because they don't care to think about others.

I am not anti business and have pointed out to  you plenty of rich people I value so please STOP your stupid bullshit.

You scapegoat everyone and give businesses a pass just because you share a title with them. Same lack of accountability the god character has.

This is NOT about one person or one business and it is not a conspiracy. It is because of a climate. It is because businesses don't want to self police and we as consumers care more about the marketing and "me me me me me me" rush to self satisfaction.

There could have been a multitude of reasons that fire occurred. Could have been someone in a rush not paying attention to what they were doing. Could have been skipping mechanical inspections. Could have been faulty equipment.

Now here is where you stupidly wont give me any credit. The other ship wrecked and people died. But in this case it was mostly discomfort where no one died, much like people bitch too often on a plane stuck on the tarmac because of weather.

Everything with you is always "PROTECT THE RICH FUCK THE WORKER PROTECT THE RICH FUCK THE WORKER PROTECT THE RICH FUCK THE WORKER'

Get the wax out of your ears man. ABUSE OF POWER , not wealth. Rushing for the buck, NOT the fact that you want more than me. Please I really get sick of you stupidly thinking anyone who suggest there is a lopsided economy means I want a nanny state.

Knock it off man. Seriously you are NOT the only class in this country and you are not the only one entitled to vote.

That fire happening at that level is the same reason the rush for the buck caused the disco fire regardless of what caused it.

 

 

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:That fire

Brian37 wrote:

That fire happening at that level is the same reason the rush for the buck caused the disco fire regardless of what caused it.

Exactly my point. You point to your mantra as the reason the fire happened when you have no clue what caused it. You don't care about evidence or what actually happened, you automatically force it to fit your preconceived notions of how companies operate. Why here you just said "it doesn't matter". Carnival is guilty even if the fire was a case of arson. Who cares what caused the fire, everyone knows Carnival is a bunch of greedy good for nothings out to make a quick buck. You don't care about the specific details of any case, which is why you always disappear from a thread when I attempt to force you into discussing details. You stick to your cut and paste rant about the "climate" and speak in generalities. Ultimately, it is because if you faced the reality of the details you would find that there is no evidence for many of your assumptions. 

You don't care what actually has been causing the battery problem on the 787's, you automatically assume it is the companies greed that caused it, even though the plane passed rigorous government safety tests before initially being cleared and obviously the problem has cost the company significantly more money than if they had discovered and resolved it by keeping it off the market a couple more months.  

You seem to think it is possible for humans to perfectly predict all potential problems when it comes to machines and if any error happens it is because of negligence and being "rushed". In reality, humans are not perfect, machines are not perfect and sometimes they don't work the way they are predicted to. All machines age and will eventually break down.

The question is whether Carnival has some major flaw in their maintenance practices that should have given them reason to believe if such an accident was likely or whether this was a one in a million chance freak accident that no one could have predicted. You don't know, the evidence has not been collected yet. Yet you are quick to pass judgement and lynch Carnival because of course it is their fault- everyone knows that business is greedy and this terrible CLIMATE! Of course that black man raped the white woman- look at him, he is black- who cares if the woman was actually raped or not? Lynch him.

Personally, I think we should wait for the evidence before determining whether or not the people at Carnival are pieces of shit that knowing and flagrantly put their customers at risk. But that is me, I am one of those crazy people that determine my position on cases based on the evidence rather than personal biases. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: See,

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

See, Brian is exactly the kind of person who would sit on a jury and award these people millions of dollars because the corporation is always evil and all accidents would be avoidable if the corporation only cared. If only no one wanted to make a profit, why people would fart butterflies and accidents would never happen. He is so confident in this that he is willing to condemn Carnival even though no one has any idea what caused the fire yet, let alone whether or not such an event was foreseeable. Evidence? We don't need no stinkin evidence- GUILTY!

There are different levels to what you are saying. What if a company is completely ripping off the customers by providing safety which is sub standard? What about over charging for crappy food or for your carry on? I went on a cruise with my 8 month old daughter and they charged her full price. I was told at the counter that it was because of insurance, but then why does Disney charge less for the little ones? bullshit.

I'm all for profit, I believe in capitalism, but there is a line I draw for how much profit one can make and how you make your profit.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Beyond

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

See, Brian is exactly the kind of person who would sit on a jury and award these people millions of dollars because the corporation is always evil and all accidents would be avoidable if the corporation only cared. If only no one wanted to make a profit, why people would fart butterflies and accidents would never happen. He is so confident in this that he is willing to condemn Carnival even though no one has any idea what caused the fire yet, let alone whether or not such an event was foreseeable. Evidence? We don't need no stinkin evidence- GUILTY!

There are different levels to what you are saying. What if a company is completely ripping off the customers by providing safety which is sub standard? What about over charging for crappy food or for your carry on? I went on a cruise with my 8 month old daughter and they charged her full price. I was told at the counter that it was because of insurance, but then why does Disney charge less for the little ones? bullshit.

I'm all for profit, I believe in capitalism, but there is a line I draw for how much profit one can make and how you make your profit.

 

If the company is negligent with safety they should be sued. For example, if the maintenance engineers warned that the engine had a good chance of starting on fire and upper management said "fuck it, sail anyway", then they should be liable. If you simply think they charge too much for their services and don't think it is worth the money, don't buy the ticket in the first place- certainly isn't a good basis for a lawsuit. I think cruises are overpriced and doubt I would enjoy the experience so I have never been on one.

My point is that Brian is assuming that the company was negligent before we have any evidence one way or the other. As he said, he doesn't care what caused the fire and whether or not the company was at fault.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

See, Brian is exactly the kind of person who would sit on a jury and award these people millions of dollars because the corporation is always evil and all accidents would be avoidable if the corporation only cared. If only no one wanted to make a profit, why people would fart butterflies and accidents would never happen. He is so confident in this that he is willing to condemn Carnival even though no one has any idea what caused the fire yet, let alone whether or not such an event was foreseeable. Evidence? We don't need no stinkin evidence- GUILTY!

There are different levels to what you are saying. What if a company is completely ripping off the customers by providing safety which is sub standard? What about over charging for crappy food or for your carry on? I went on a cruise with my 8 month old daughter and they charged her full price. I was told at the counter that it was because of insurance, but then why does Disney charge less for the little ones? bullshit.

I'm all for profit, I believe in capitalism, but there is a line I draw for how much profit one can make and how you make your profit.

 

If the company is negligent with safety they should be sued. For example, if the maintenance engineers warned that the engine had a good chance of starting on fire and upper management said "fuck it, sail anyway", then they should be liable. If you simply think they charge too much for their services and don't think it is worth the money, don't buy the ticket in the first place- certainly isn't a good basis for a lawsuit. I think cruises are overpriced and doubt I would enjoy the experience so I have never been on one.

My point is that Brian is assuming that the company was negligent before we have any evidence one way or the other. As he said, he doesn't care what caused the fire and whether or not the company was at fault.  

I agree with you.

I think I was trying to say what if the company was buying food... let's say some expensive caviar from some rare fish but it wasn't the rare fish but some crap they pulled out of river from a common fish?

They knew it wasn't the rare fish but they advertised it as so.

This would be false advertising? maybe misrepresentation?

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I agree with you.

I think I was trying to say what if the company was buying food... let's say some expensive caviar from some rare fish but it wasn't the rare fish but some crap they pulled out of river from a common fish?

They knew it wasn't the rare fish but they advertised it as so.

This would be false advertising? maybe misrepresentation?

 

Yeah, in that case I would agree. Not sure it would qualify for some large punitive damages the way being negligent with safety would, but if blatant lying in advertising is an issue they should at least be forced to provide a refund.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X