Convention Feminism

Rich Woods
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Convention Feminism

My apoloigies if this topic has already been addressed, and beaten to death. But does anyone have any thoughts, let alone have been involved in any of the Skepchick claims/demands that there be specific sexual harassment policy imposed at atheist conventions... or about "elevator gate"? Rebecca Watson? PZ Myers? ...


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Yeah, it's been covered

Yeah, it's been covered :

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/33480

My thoughts : After hearing all the accusations being thrown around all over the place, I've come to the conclusion that checking all these claims will take WAY too much time. For each snarky video or article, there's a rebuttal from the other side. Back and forth it goes. I simply don't have the time.


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Natural, a.k.a. Wonderist,

Natural, a.k.a. Wonderist, has kept us somewhat apprised. I've mostly ignored it as best I can. Too much like 10 year old children in the schoolyard. No heros, plenty of villains.

If you look through Wonderists post history, you'll see a couple topics on the matter, where people have chimed in. I'll leave a couple links below, but I may not have gotten it all.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/33480

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/33380

http://www.rationalresponders.com/still_unapologetic

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Rich Woods
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Thanks fellas

Thanks fellas


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Hey Rich,You made me think

Hey Rich,

You made me think of this article in Psychology Today.

"Men sexually harass women because they are not sexist"

Quote:
While many women legitimately complain that they have been subjected to abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment by their male colleagues and employers, Browne points out that long before women entered the labor force, men subjected each other to such abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment.  Abuse, intimidation, and degradation are all part of men’s unfortunate repertoire of tactics employed in competitive situations.  In other words, men are not harassing women in this fashion because they are treating women differently from men (which is the definition of discrimination under which sexual harassment legally falls), but the exact opposite.  Men harass women precisely because they are not discriminating between men and women. 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200904/men-sexually-harass-women-because-they-are-not-sexist-ii

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote:Hey Rich,You

Watcher wrote:

Hey Rich,

You made me think of this article in Psychology Today.

"Men sexually harass women because they are not sexist"

Quote:
While many women legitimately complain that they have been subjected to abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment by their male colleagues and employers, Browne points out that long before women entered the labor force, men subjected each other to such abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment.  Abuse, intimidation, and degradation are all part of men’s unfortunate repertoire of tactics employed in competitive situations.  In other words, men are not harassing women in this fashion because they are treating women differently from men (which is the definition of discrimination under which sexual harassment legally falls), but the exact opposite.  Men harass women precisely because they are not discriminating between men and women. 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200904/men-sexually-harass-women-because-they-are-not-sexist-ii

 

That's an interesting take.

Come to think of it, when it's just me and the guys, we talk to each other something horrible.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I have to laugh, it's so

I have to laugh, it's so simple and obvious. Thanks for that link.

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Quote:While many women

Quote:
While many women legitimately complain that they have been subjected to abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment by their male colleagues and employers, Browne points out that long before women entered the labor force, men subjected each other to such abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment.  Abuse, intimidation, and degradation are all part of men’s unfortunate repertoire of tactics employed in competitive situations.  In other words, men are not harassing women in this fashion because they are treating women differently from men (which is the definition of discrimination under which sexual harassment legally falls), but the exact opposite.  Men harass women precisely because they are not discriminating between men and women. 

 

So they're being assholes not because they're discriminating, but because they're assholes ? 

Oh, that's okay then.


 

 


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Anonymouse wrote:So they're

Anonymouse wrote:

So they're being assholes not because they're discriminating, but because they're assholes ? 

Oh, that's okay then.

There are those poor, unfortunate souls that refuse to accept reality, and those others that just accept reality.

I think most members on here, at least the atheist ones, are more of the mindset that accept that reality is what it is.   Not what we wish it was.

People are cruel, people are selfish, people are self serving.   We've evolved that way for very important evolutionary reasons in our ape heritage.   Because it fucking works.   You can call it whatever you like.   Or denounce it.   Whatever.

You can't legislate away millions of years of evolution.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote:Anonymouse

Watcher wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

So they're being assholes not because they're discriminating, but because they're assholes ? 

Oh, that's okay then.

There are those poor, unfortunate souls that refuse to accept reality, and those others that just accept reality.

I think most members on here, at least the atheist ones, are more of the mindset that accept that reality is what it is.   Not what we wish it was.

People are cruel, people are selfish, people are self serving.   We've evolved that way for very important evolutionary reasons in our ape heritage.   Because it fucking works. 

 

 

Would you say we've evolved to become more cruel, more selfish and more self serving, or less ?

 

Watcher wrote:
You can call it whatever you like.   Or denounce it.   Whatever.

You can't legislate away millions of years of evolution.

 

Then let's keep evolving.


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

Watcher wrote:

Hey Rich,

You made me think of this article in Psychology Today.

"Men sexually harass women because they are not sexist"

Quote:
While many women legitimately complain that they have been subjected to abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment by their male colleagues and employers, Browne points out that long before women entered the labor force, men subjected each other to such abusive, intimidating, and degrading treatment.  Abuse, intimidation, and degradation are all part of men’s unfortunate repertoire of tactics employed in competitive situations.  In other words, men are not harassing women in this fashion because they are treating women differently from men (which is the definition of discrimination under which sexual harassment legally falls), but the exact opposite.  Men harass women precisely because they are not discriminating between men and women. 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200904/men-sexually-harass-women-because-they-are-not-sexist-ii

 

That's an interesting take.

Come to think of it, when it's just me and the guys, we talk to each other something horrible.

 

yup, i like that take a lot.  you know you're best friends with a guy when you greet him with something like, "hey, you goddamn mick cocksucking piece of shit, your wife find out you're fuckin' your sister yet?"

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Anonymouse wrote:Then let's

Anonymouse wrote:

Then let's keep evolving.

Cultural "evolution" is completely distinct from biological evolution.   You do understand this concept, right?   Or do I need to go back to kindergarten lessons for you?

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote:Anonymouse

Watcher wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Then let's keep evolving.

Cultural "evolution" is completely distinct from biological evolution.   You do understand this concept, right?   Or do I need to go back to kindergarten lessons for you?

 

Just wondering what's so essential about being abusive, intimidating, and degrading, that we can't do without. 


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Anonymouse wrote:Watcher

Anonymouse wrote:

Watcher wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Then let's keep evolving.

Cultural "evolution" is completely distinct from biological evolution.   You do understand this concept, right?   Or do I need to go back to kindergarten lessons for you?

 

Just wondering what's so essential about being abusive, intimidating, and degrading, that we can't do without. 

very rational assertion, which is why it won't work for humanity.  ultimately, we're fighting a losing battle herew, because humanity as a species will never be completely or even mostly rational.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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If they ever become so, they

If they ever become so, they won't be human anymore. lol

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Anonymouse wrote: Just

Anonymouse wrote:

 

Just wondering what's so essential about being abusive, intimidating, and degrading, that we can't do without. 

 

Baby.   I'll handle you with kid gloves.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote:Baby.   I'll

Watcher wrote:

Baby.   I'll handle you with kid gloves.

Any way you'd like to be handled yourself, will do just fine for me, sweetie. 


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Watcher wrote:Anonymouse

Watcher wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

So they're being assholes not because they're discriminating, but because they're assholes ? 

Oh, that's okay then.

There are those poor, unfortunate souls that refuse to accept reality, and those others that just accept reality.

I think most members on here, at least the atheist ones, are more of the mindset that accept that reality is what it is.   Not what we wish it was.

People are cruel, people are selfish, people are self serving.   We've evolved that way for very important evolutionary reasons in our ape heritage.   Because it fucking works.   You can call it whatever you like.   Or denounce it.   Whatever.

You can't legislate away millions of years of evolution.

I agree evolution does not care who wins, but that is not an excuse to play to the cruel side of our nature. There is also a kid side, and if evolution doesn't care which side wins, cruel or kind, I don't think it has to be black or white because evolution simply isn't monochromatic.

If we were not capable of civility, governments wouldn't exist at all.

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Brian37 wrote:If we were not

Brian37 wrote:

If we were not capable of civility, governments wouldn't exist at all.

If we were capable of civility we wouldn't need government at all. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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*chuckle*

*chuckle*

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