Where "out there" is it? I read scientific journals as a hobby and I have never seen it. Link me to it.

You proved that A and B don't produce C- so when a theist says that A and B produce C you know they are wrong.

So I should trust third hand hearsay claims that apparently no one bothered to even write down over the dozens of well documented journal articles and books I have read? It is completely unbelievable that an African tribe has a god belief that "parallels" Christianity and no one bothered to write about it.

You are full of guesses, and not particularly good ones.

So they don't get sued. Basic Economics 101.

Funny how all the publishers who were behind the 2012 craze are still around despite the fact that the world is still here. Things just don't work the way you think.

You live in fantasy land. Noone uses a publisher who doesn't distribute. There's no point.

You speak as if it's one definitive thing.  Where do you want to start? 

of course I do.  Any Christian knows that you need more than A and B to produce C.  You're missing the bigger picture. 

Science says A and B don't produce C.  The community concludes;  There is no C

Christians say, There's a C, but A and B aren't the way to go about understanding C. 

Science says, how can we empirically prove C?

Christians say, I don't know, but here's how we know C is out there.... F, J, l, m, n, p Q, S, T, Alpha, Omega, Z... Does it empirically prove C?  no, does it give probable cause to give it more consideration?  We think it should..

it is quite unbelievable what history has forgotten as well.  If the missionaries who went there didn't have an adjenda to write a book about their discovery, the scientific/other community aware of the culture doesn't focus on paralleling belief systems necessarily, who's going to write about the connection?  Also, you act as if a parallel is an unusual thing... as if the non-believing community on this site doesn't try to use the parallels throughout history to discredit one belief system.

and yet the point remains doesn't it.  The guesses are based on something that didn't happen so of course how can one have a good guess about what could have been without it happening in the past?  Think about what you're saying.  You are full of conclusions, and not particularly good ones.

the question was rhetorical, but that's for stating the obvious for everyone.  notice they don't do it with every book.  Wonder why that is?  (just in case your'e not sure.  Rhetorical again)

 
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 These texts can be notoriously difficult to understand, due many to a cursory approach, will often make a common flaw of reading them in isolation. Be warned, if you're confused because you're looking at the text in isolation. It's endlessly interesting to find how details illuminate your reading and help in genuine understanding. 

  A lady who was having some difficulty in understanding alternative Gnostic texts brought up an interesting problem she was facing (in Gnosticism). That is after the long discourse about the religious power mongers and her own apparent feelings of being ostracized by society as a Wiccan. I inappropriately laughed at her difficulty with the texts.

    Lance S. Owen speaks of some eerily similar parallels in much later independent systems of Gnosticism, in this remark of his online :  "Not only was the Divine plural in Kabbalistic theosophy, but in its first subtle emanation from unknowable unity God had taken on a dual form as Male and Female; a supernal Father and Mother, Hokhmah and Binah, were God's first emanated forms. Kabbalists used frankly sexual metaphors to explain how the creative intercourse of Hokhmah and Binah generated further creation. Indeed, sexual motifs'' ¬ Lance S. Owens

For many who have never bothered to even look at a Gnostic text, I will provide one (in this post):

Apocryphon Of Jn (ApocJn)

{Jude 1:6-7} And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire'' {Jude 1:6-7}

"When I, John, heard these things I turned away from the temple to a desert place. And I grieved greatly in my heart, saying, "How then was the savior appointed, and why was he sent into the world by his Father, and who is his Father who sent him, and of what sort is that aeon to which we shall go? For what did he mean when he said to us, 'This aeon to which you will go is of the type of the imperishable aeon, but he did not teach us concerning the latter, of what sort it is."

 

 The Apocryphon of John (ApocJn)
 The Hypostasis of the Archons (HArch)

"Straightway, while I was contemplating these things, behold, the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken. I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light a youth who stood by me. While I looked at him, he became like an old man. And he changed his likeness (again), becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms.

"He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."

"And I asked to know it, and he said to me, "The Monad is a monarchy with nothing above it. It is he who exists as God and Father of everything, the invisible One who is above everything, who exists as incorruption, which is in the pure light into which no eye can look.

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.

"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility. (He is) not in perfection, nor in blessedness, nor in divinity, but he is far superior. He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him. He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan. For he who precedes someone does not lack, that he may receive from him. For rather, it is the latter that looks expectantly at him in his light.

"For the perfection is majestic. He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light.

"How am I to speak with you about him? His aeon is indestructible, at rest and existing in silence, reposing (and) being prior to everything. For he is the head of all the aeons, and it is he who gives them strength in his goodness. For we know not the ineffable things, and we do not understand what is immeasurable, except for him who came forth from him, namely (from) the Father. For it is he who told it to us alone. For it is he who looks at himself in his light which surrounds him, namely the spring of the water of life. And it is he who gives to all the aeons and in every way, (and) who gazes upon his image which he sees in the spring of the Spirit. It is he who puts his desire in his water-light which is in the spring of the pure light-water which surrounds him.

"And his thought performed a deed and she came forth, namely she who had appeared before him in the shine of his light. This is the first power which was before all of them (and) which came forth from his mind, She is the forethought of the All - her light shines like his light - the perfect power which is the image of the invisible, virginal Spirit who is perfect. The first power, the glory of Barbelo, the perfect glory in the aeons, the glory of the revelation, she glorified the virginal Spirit and it was she who praised him, because thanks to him she had come forth. This is the first thought, his image; she became the womb of everything, for it is she who is prior to them all, the Mother-Father, the first man, the holy Spirit, the thrice-male, the thrice-powerful, the thrice-named androgynous one, and the eternal aeon among the invisible ones, and the first to come forth.

"<She> requested from the invisible, virginal Spirit - that is Barbelo - to give her foreknowledge. And the Spirit consented. And when he had consented, the foreknowledge came forth, and it stood by the forethought; it originates from the thought of the invisible, virginal Spirit. It glorified him and his perfect power, Barbelo, for it was for her sake that it had come into being.

"And she requested again to grant her indestructibility, and he consented. When he had consented, indestructibility came forth, and it stood by the thought and the foreknowledge. It glorified the invisible One and Barbelo, the one for whose sake they had come into being.

"And Barbelo requested to grant her eternal life. And the invisible Spirit consented. And when he had consented, eternal life came forth, and they attended and glorified the invisible Spirit and Barbelo, the one for whose sake they had come into being.

"And she requested again to grant her truth. And the invisible Spirit consented. And when he had consented, truth came forth, and they attended and glorified the invisible, excellent Spirit and his Barbelo, the one for whose sake they had come into being.

"This is the pentad of the aeons of the Father ..the image of the invisible Spirit; it is the forethought, which Barbelo, and the thought, and the foreknowledge, and the indestructibility, and the eternal life, and the truth. This is the androgynous pentad of the aeons, which is the decad of the aeons, which is the Father.

"And he looked at Barbelo with the pure light which surrounds the invisible Spirit, and (with) his spark, and she conceived from him. He begot a spark of light with a light resembling blessedness. But it does not equal his greatness. This was an only-begotten child of the Mother-Father which had come forth; it is the only offspring, the only-begotten one of the Father, the pure Light.

"And the invisible, virginal Spirit rejoiced over the light which came forth, that which was brought forth first by the first power of his forethought, which is Barbelo. And he anointed it with his goodness until it became perfect, not lacking in any goodness, because he had anointed it with the goodness of the invisible Spirit. And it attended him as he poured upon it. And immediately when it had received from the Spirit, it glorified the holy Spirit and the perfect forethought, for whose sake it had come forth.

"And it requested to give it a fellow worker, which is the mind, and he consented gladly. And when the invisible Spirit had consented, the mind came forth, and it attended Christ, glorifying him and Barbelo. And all these came into being in silence.

"And the mind wanted to perform a deed through the word of the invisible Spirit. And his will became a deed and it appeared with the mind; and the light glorified it. And the word followed the will. For because of the word, Christ the divine Autogenes created everything. And the eternal life <and> his will and the mind and the foreknowledge attended and glorified the invisible Spirit and Barbelo, for whose sake they had come into being.

"And the holy Spirit completed the divine Autogenes, his son, together with Barbelo, that he may attend the mighty and invisible, virginal Spirit as the divine Autogenes, the Christ whom he had honored with a mighty voice. He came forth through the forethought. And the invisible, virginal Spirit placed the divine Autogenes of truth over everything. And he subjected to him every authority.. He expected that they might attend him. And the three (are) will, thought, and life. And the four powers (are) understanding, grace, perception, and prudence. And grace belongs to the light-aeon Armozel, which is the first angel. And there are three other aeons with this aeon: grace, truth, and form. And the second light (is) Oriel, who has been placed over the second aeon. And there are three other aeons with him: conception, perception, and memory. And the third light is Daveithai, who has been placed over the third aeon. And there are three other aeons with him: understanding, love, and idea. And the fourth aeon was placed over the fourth light Eleleth. And there are three other aeons with him: perfection, peace, and wisdom. These are the four lights which attend the divine Autogenes, (and) these are the twelve aeons which attend the son of the mighty one, the Autogenes, the Christ, through the will and the gift of the invisible Spirit. And the twelve aeons belong to the son of the Autogenes. And all things were established by the will of the holy Spirit through the Autogenes.

"And from the foreknowledge of the perfect mind, through the revelation of the will of the invisible Spirit and the will of the Autogenes, <the> perfect Man (appeared), the first revelation, and the truth. It is he whom the virginal Spirit called Pigera-Adamas, and he placed him over the first aeon with the mighty one, the Autogenes, the Christ, by the first light Armozel; and with him are his powers. And the invisible one gave him a spiritual, invincible power. And he spoke and glorified and praised the invisible Spirit, saying, 'It is for thy sake that everything has come into being and everything will return to thee. I shall praise and glorify thee and the Autogenes and the aeons, the three: the Father, the Mother, and the Son, the perfect power.'

"And he placed his son Seth over the second aeon in the presence of the second light Oriel. And in the third aeon the seed of Seth was placed over the third light Daveithai. And the souls of the saints were placed (there). And in the fourth aeon the souls were placed of those who do not know the Pleroma and who did not repent at once, but who persisted for a while and repented afterwards; they are by the fourth light Eleleth. These are creatures which glorify the invisible Spirit.
{Gos of the Egyptians} .. Yoel, who presides over the name of him to whom it will be granted to baptize with the holy baptism that surpasses the heaven, the incorruptible one. the ministers of the four lights, the great Gamaliel, the great Gabriel, the great Samblo, and the great Abrasax, and they who preside over the sun, its rising, Olses and Hypneus and Heurumaious, and they who preside over the entrance into the rest of eternal life, the rulers Mixanther and Michanor, and they who guard the souls of the elect, ..  {Gos of the Egyptians}
"And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration. Self-constructed Father, and is full of shining, ineffable light. In the beginning, he decided to have his likeness become a great power. Immediately, the principle (or beginning) of that Light appeared as Immortal Androgynous Man. His male name is 'Begotten, Perfect Mind'. And his female name is 'All-wise Begettress Sophia'. It is also said that she resembles her brother and her consort. And though the person of her maleness had not approved, and she had not found her agreement, and she had thought without the consent of the Spirit and the knowledge of her agreement, (yet) she brought forth. And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance, because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.

"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth.

"This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother. And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born. He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now. And he joined with his arrogance which is in him and begot authorities for himself. The name of the first one is Athoth, whom the generations call the reaper. The second one is Harmas, who is the eye of envy. The third one is Kalila-Oumbri. The fourth one is Yabel. The fifth one is Adonaiou, who is called Sabaoth. The sixth one is Cain, whom the generations of men call the sun. The seventh is Abel. The eighth is Abrisene. The ninth is Yobel. The tenth is Armoupieel. The eleventh is Melceir-Adonein. The twelfth is Belias, it is he who is over the depth of Hades. And he placed seven kings - each corresponding to the firmaments of heaven - over the seven heavens, and five over the depth of the abyss, that they may reign. And he shared his fire with them, but he did not send forth from the power of the light which he had taken from his mother, for he is ignorant darkness.

"And when the light had mixed with the darkness, it caused the darkness to shine. And when the darkness had mixed with the light, it darkened the light and it became neither light nor dark, but it became dim.

"Now the archon who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.

"And the archons created seven powers for themselves, and the powers created for themselves six angels for each one until they became 365 angels. And these are the bodies belonging with the names: the first is Athoth, a he has a sheep's face; the second is Eloaiou, he has a donkey's face; the third is Astaphaios, he has a hyena's face; the fourth is Yao, he has a serpent's face with seven heads; the fifth is Sabaoth, he has a dragon's face; the sixth is Adonin, he had a monkey's face; the seventh is Sabbede, he has a shining fire-face. This is the sevenness of the week.

"But Yaltabaoth had a multitude of faces, more than all of them, so that he could put a face before all of them, according to his desire, when he is in the midst of seraphs. He shared his fire with them; therefore he became lord over them. Because of the power of the glory he possessed of his mother's light, he called himself God. And he did not obey the place from which he came. And he united the seven powers in his thought with the authorities which were with him. And when he spoke it happened. And he named each power beginning with the highest: the first is goodness with the first (authority), Athoth; the second is foreknowledge with the second one, Eloaio; and the third is divinity with the third one, Astraphaio); the fourth is lordship with the fourth one, Yao; the fifth is kingdom with the fifth one, Sabaoth; the sixth is envy with the sixth one, Adonein; the seventh is understanding with the seventh one, Sabbateon. And these have a firmament corresponding to each aeon-heaven. They were given names according to the glory which belongs to heaven for the destruction of the powers. And in the names which were given to them by their Originator there was power. But the names which were given them according to the glory which belongs to heaven mean for them destruction and powerlessness. Thus they have two names.

"And having created [...] everything, he organized according to the model of the first aeons which had come into being, so that he might create them like the indestructible ones. Not because he had seen the indestructible ones, but the power in him, which he had taken from his mother, produced in him the likeness of the cosmos. And when he saw the creation which surrounds him, and the multitude of the angels around him which had come forth from him, he said to them, 'I am a jealous God, and there is no other God beside me.' But by announcing this he indicated to the angels who attended him that there exists another God. For if there were no other one, of whom would he be jealous? And for his part, he was delighted and continually boasted, saying to them, "I have no need of anyone."
''Then when Pistis-Sophia saw the impiety of the chief ruler, she was filled with anger. She was invisible. She said, "You are mistaken, Samael," (that is, "blind god" ). "There is an immortal man of light who has been in existence before you, and who will appear among your modelled forms; he will trample you to scorn, just as potter's clay is pounded. And you will descend to your mother, the abyss, along with those that belong to you. For at the consummation of your (pl.) works, the entire defect that has become visible out of the truth will be abolished, and it will cease to be, and will be like what has never been." Saying this, Pistis revealed her likeness of her greatness in the waters. And so doing, she withdrew up to her light. Now when Sabaoth, the son of Yaldabaoth, heard the voice of Pistis, he sang praises to her, and he condemned the father (On the Origin of the World) 
"Then the mother began to move to and fro. She became aware of the deficiency when the brightness of her light diminished. And she became dark because her consort had not agreed with her."

"And I said, "Lord, what does it mean that she moved to and fro?" But he smiled and said, "Do not think it is, as Moses said, 'above the waters.' No, but when she had seen the wickedness which had happened, and the theft which her son had committed, she repented. And she was overcome by forgetfulness in the darkness of ignorance and she began to be ashamed. And she did not dare to return, but she was moving about. And the moving is the going to and fro.

"And the arrogant one took a power from his mother. For he was ignorant, thinking that there existed no other except his mother alone. And when he saw the multitude of the angels which he had created, then he exalted himself above them.

"And when the mother recognized that the garment of darkness was imperfect, then she knew that her consort had not agreed with her. She repented with much weeping. And the whole pleroma heard the prayer of her repentance, and they praised on her behalf the invisible, virginal Spirit. And he consented; and when the invisible Spirit had consented, the holy Spirit poured over her from their whole pleroma. For it was not her consort who came to her, but he came to her through the pleroma in order that he might correct her deficiency. And she was taken up not to her own aeon but above her son, that she might be in the ninth until she has corrected her deficiency.

"And a voice came forth from the exalted aeon-heaven: 'The Man exists and the son of Man.' And the chief archon, Yaltabaoth, heard (it) and thought that the voice had come from his mother. And he did not know from where it came. And he taught them, the holy and perfect Mother-Father, the complete foreknowledge, the image of the invisible one who is the Father of the all (and) through whom everything came into being, the first Man. For he revealed his likeness in a human form.

"And the whole aeon of the chief archon trembled, and the foundations of the abyss shook. And of the waters which are above matter, the underside was illuminated by the appearance of his image which had been revealed. And when all the authorities and the chief archon looked, they saw the whole region of the underside which was illuminated.

"Seven have power over all of these: Michael, Ouriel, Asmenedas, Saphasatoel, Aarmouriam, Richram, Amiorps. And the ones who are in charge over the senses (are) Archendekta; and he who is in charge over the receptions (is) Deitharbathas; and he who is in charge over the imagination (is) Oummaa; and he who is over the composition Aachiaram, and he who is over the whole impulse Riaramnacho.

"And the origin of the demons which are in the whole body is determined to be four: heat, cold, wetness, and dryness. And the mother of all of them is matter. And he who reigns over the heat (is) Phloxopha; and he who reigns over the cold is Oroorrothos; and he who reigns over what is dry (is) Erimacho; and he who reigns over the wetness (is) Athuro. And the mother of all of these, Onorthochrasaei, stands in their midst, since she is illimitable, and she mixes with all of them. And she is truly matter, for they are nourished by her.

"The four chief demons are: Ephememphi, who belongs to pleasure, Yoko, who belongs to desire, Nenentophni, who belongs to grief, Blaomen, who belongs to fear. And the mother of them all is Aesthesis-Ouch-Epi-Ptoe. And from the four demons passions came forth. And from grief (came) envy, jealousy, distress, trouble, pain, callousness, anxiety, mourning, etc. And from pleasure much wickedness arises, and empty pride, and similar things. And from desire (comes) anger, wrath, and bitterness, and bitter passion, and unsatedness, and similar things. And from fear (comes) dread, fretting, fawning, agony, and shame. All of these are like useful things as well as evil things. But the insight into their true (character) is Anaro, who is the head of the material soul, for it belongs with the seven senses, Ouch-Epi-Ptoe.

"This is the number of the angels: together they are 365. They all worked on it until, limb for limb, the natural and the material body was completed by them. Now there are other ones in charge over the remaining passions whom I did not mention to you. But if you wish to know them, it is written in the book of Zoroaster. And all the angels and demons worked until they had constructed the natural body. And their product was completely inactive and motionless for a long time.
"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that his image may become a light for us.' And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence with the characteristics which were given. And each authority supplied a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form). He created a being according to the likeness of the first, perfect Man. And they said, 'Let us call him Adam, that his name may become a power of light for us.'

"And the powers began: the first one, goodness, created a bone-soul; and the second, foreknowledge, created a sinew-soul; the third, divinity, created a flesh-soul; and the fourth, the lordship, created a marrow; the fifth, kingdom created a blood-soul; the sixth, envy, created a skin-soul; the seventh, understanding, created a hair-soul. And the multitude of the angels attended him and they received from the powers the seven substances of the natural (form) in order to create the proportions of the limbs and the proportion of the rump and the proper working together of each of the parts.

"The first one began to create the head. Eteraphaope-Abron created his head; Meniggesstroeth created the brain; Asterechme (created) the right eye; Thaspomocha, the left eye; Yeronumos, the right ear; Bissoum, the left ear; Akioreim, the nose; Banen-Ephroum, the lips; .. Phthave, the navel; Senaphim, the abdomen; Arachethopi, the right ribs; Zabedo, the left ribs; Barias, the right hip; Phnouth the left hip; Abenlenarchei, the marrow; Chnoumeninorin, the bones; Gesole, the stomach; Agromauna, the heart; Bano, the lungs; Sostrapal, the liver; Biblo, the kidneys; .. etc.

"At a later time  he  planned to bring a flood upon the work of man. But the greatness of the light of the foreknowledge informed Noah, and he proclaimed (it) to all the offspring which are the sons of men. But those who were strangers to him did not listen to him. It is not as Moses said, 'They hid themselves in an ark' (Gn 7: 7), but they hid themselves in a place, not only Noah, but also many other people from the immovable race. They went into a place and hid themselves in a luminous cloud. And he (Noah) recognized his authority, and she who belongs to the light was with him, having shone on them because he (the chief archon) had brought darkness upon the whole earth.

"And he made a plan with his powers. He sent his angels to the daughters of men, that they might take some of them for themselves and raise offspring for their enjoyment. And at first they did not succeed. When they had no success, they gathered together again and they made a plan together. They created a counterfeit spirit, who resembles the Spirit who had descended, so as to pollute the souls through it. And the angels changed themselves in their likeness into the likeness of their mates (the daughters of men), filling them with the spirit of darkness, which they had mixed for them, and with evil. They brought gold and silver and a gift and copper and iron and metal and all kinds of things. And they steered the people who had followed them into great troubles, by leading them astray with many deceptions. They (the people) became old without having enjoyment, with mankind..''
"And when the mother wanted to retrieve the power which she had given to the chief archon, she petitioned the Mother-Father of the All, who is most merciful. He sent, by means of the holy decree, the five lights down upon the place of the angels of the chief archon. They advised him that they should bring forth the power of the mother. And they said to Yaltabaoth, 'Blow into his face something of your spirit and his body will arise.' And he blew into his face the spirit which is the power of his mother; he did not know (this), for he exists in ignorance. And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was luminous.

"And in that moment the rest of the powers became jealous, because he had come into being through all of them and they had given their power to the man, and his intelligence was greater than that of those who had made him, and greater than that of the chief archon. And when they recognized that he was luminous, and that he could think better than they, and that he was free from wickedness, they took him and threw him into the lowest region of all matter.

"But the blessed One, the Mother-Father, the beneficent and merciful One, had mercy on the power of the mother which had been brought forth out of the chief archon, for they (the archons) might gain power over the natural and perceptible body. And he sent, through his beneficent Spirit and his great mercy, a helper to Adam, luminous Epinoia which comes out of him, who is called Life. And she assists the whole creature, by toiling with him and by restoring him to his fullness and by teaching him about the descent of his seed (and) by teaching him about the way of ascent, (which is) the way he came down. And the luminous Epinoia was hidden in Adam, in order that the archons might not know her, but that the Epinoia might be a correction of the deficiency of the mother.

"And the man came forth because of the shadow of the light which is in him. And his thinking was superior to all those who had made him. When they looked up, they saw that his thinking was superior. And they took counsel with the whole array of archons and angels. They took fire and earth and water and mixed them together with the four fiery winds. And they wrought them together and caused a great disturbance. And they brought him (Adam) into the shadow of death, in order that they might form (him) again from earth and water and fire and the spirit which originates in matter, which is the ignorance of darkness and desire, and their counterfeit spirit. This is the tomb of the newly-formed body with which the robbers had clothed the man, the bond of forgetfulness; and he became a mortal man. This is the first one who came down, and the first separation. But the Epinoia of the light which was in him, she is the one who was to awaken his thinking.

"And the archons took him and placed him in paradise. And they said to him, 'Eat, that is at leisure,' for their luxury is bitter and their beauty is depraved. And their luxury is deception and their trees are godlessness and their fruit is deadly poison and their promise is death. And the tree of their life they had placed in the midst of paradise.

"And I shall teach you (pl.) what is the mystery of their life, which is the plan which they made together, which is the likeness of their spirit. The root of this (tree) is bitter and its branches are death, its shadow is hate and deception is in its leaves, and its blossom is the ointment of evil, and its fruit is death and desire is its seed, and it sprouts in darkness. The dwelling place of those who taste from it is Hades, and the darkness is their place of rest.

"But what they call the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is the Epinoia of the light, they stayed in front of it in order that he (Adam) might not look up to his fullness and recognize the nakedness of his shamefulness. But it was I who brought about that they ate."

"And to I said to the savior, "Lord, was it not the serpent that taught Adam to eat?" The savior smiled and said, "The serpent taught them to eat from wickedness of begetting, lust, (and) destruction, that he (Adam) might be useful to him. And he (Adam) knew that he was disobedient to him (the chief archon) due to light of the Epinoia which is in him, which made him more correct in his thinking than the chief archon. And (the latter) wanted to bring about the power which he himself had given him. And he brought a forgetfulness over Adam."

"And I said to the savior, "What is the forgetfulness?" And he said "It is not the way Moses wrote (and) you heard. For he said in his first book, 'He put him to sleep' (Gn 2:21), but (it was) in his perception. For also he said through the prophet, 'I will make their hearts heavy, that they may not pay attention and may not see' (Is 6:10).

"Then the Epinoia of the light hid herself in him (Adam). And the chief archon wanted to bring her out of his rib. But the Epinoia of the light cannot be grasped. Although darkness pursued her, it did not catch her. And he brought a part of his power out of him. And he made another creature, in the form of a woman, according to the likeness of the Epinoia which had appeared to him. And he brought the part which he had taken from the power of the man into the female creature, and not as Moses said, 'his rib-bone.'

"And he (Adam) saw the woman beside him. And in that moment the luminous Epinoia appeared, and she lifted the veil which lay over his mind. And he became sober from the drunkenness of darkness. And he recognized his counter-image, and he said, 'This is indeed bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.' Therefore the man will leave his father and his mother, and he will cleave to his wife, and they will both be one flesh. For they will send him his consort, and he will leave his father and his mother ... (3 lines unreadable). After those days, the eternal knowledge of the God of truth withdrew from Adam and his consort Eve. Since that time, we (Adam and Eve) learned about dead things, like men. Then we recognized the god who had created us.  For we were not strangers to his powers. And we served him in fear and slavery. ... (3 lines unreadable)
"And the chief archon saw the virgin who stood by Adam, and that the luminous Epinoia of life had appeared in her. And Yaltabaoth was full of ignorance. And when the foreknowledge of the All noticed (it), she sent some and they snatched life out of Eve.

"And the chief archon seduced her and he begot in her two children, as a result; the first and the second (are) Eloim and Yave. Eloim has a bear-face and Yave has a cat-face. The one is righteous but the other is unrighteous. (Yave is righteous but Eloim is unrighteous.) Yave he set over the fire and the wind, and Eloim he set over the water and the earth..''
"And our sister Sophia (is) she who came down in innocence in order to rectify her deficiency. Therefore she was called Life, which is the mother of the living, by the foreknowledge of the sovereignty of heaven. And through her they have tasted the perfect Knowledge. I appeared in the form of an eagle on the tree of knowledge, which is the Epinoia from the foreknowledge of the pure light ..
"Now these things I have presented to you - I am Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, who is exalted above the heavens - O perfect and incorruptible ones, because of the incorruptible and perfect mystery and the ineffable one. But they think that we decreed them before the foundation of the world, in order that, when we emerge from the places of the world, we may present there the symbols of incorruption from the spiritual union unto knowledge. You do not know it, because the fleshly cloud overshadows you. But I alone am the friend of Sophia.''

  ..every act of sexual intercourse which has occurred between those unlike one another is adultery! (cross-ref. Jude 1:6-7 )
  ''..[With his multitude of faces] he pursued her. And she laughed at them for their witlessness and their blindness; and in his clutches she became a tree, and left before them her shadowy reflection resembling herself; and they defiled it foully ..  And Adam knew his female counterpart Eve, and she became pregnant, and bore Seth to Adam. And she said, "I have borne another man through God, in place of Abel." Again Eve became pregnant, and she bore Norea. And she said, "He has begotten on me a virgin as an assistance for many generations of mankind." She is the virgin whom the forces did not defile.''
                                                              ¬ The Hypostasis of the Archons (HArch)

"Those who have gone astray, whom the spirit begets, usually go astray also because of the Spirit. Thus, by one and the same breath, the fire blazes and is put out'' .. ''When Eve was still with Adam, death did not exist. When she was separated from him, death came into being. If he enters again and attains his former self, death will be no more.  If the woman had not separated from the man, she would not die  with the man. His separation became the beginning of death .. Christ came to repair .. and unite them."
                                                              ¬ The Gospel according to Philip
 

 In a Canonical Gospel, found in the holy bible, it says in *The Gospel of Saint Mark Chapter  4 :  '' ..so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand,.."

 Anglican Priest Pete Owen Jones, for BBCFour, presented a documentary of 2nd Century Gnostic texts wrote: "I wanted to know about the promise of eternal life held in these enigmatic teachings, from the 2nd Century; and about the historical context to the people who believed in them. So I (the Anglican) joined Bart Ehrman about a mere glimpse of the almost forgotten world that allowed the Gospel of Thomas in which to flourish."
Bart Ehrman (pictured): ''About one of the finds from the Nag Hammadi codex(ices) In this 'Lost' Gospel's emphases is that of 'secret knowledge' found in the pages of the Gospel of Thomas; the key to salvation lies in the secret knowledge, it is by learning the secret teachings found according Gnostic Gospel and by learning the secret teachings of Jesus. And knowing what they meant. In the early church there were groups of early christians known as Gnostics. The Greek word for knowledge was Gnosis, they were in the know. In my opinion the Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic Gospel propounding a set of beliefs, if people *understand and internalize ? They will have eternal life. The reason the early church fathers found such objection to this, in part; Is because the way of salvation stood at odds with the way of salvation, says Ehrman.  According to these church fathers,  salvation was open to high and low; intelligent and unintelligent; rich and poor. But, according to these texts, it's only people in the know, those in the inside group, those with esoteric knowledge who could have salvation.(end quote)''

____
On art,  Michelangelo Merisi di Caravaggio MOST famous painting,  recall the sword is inscribed "Humilitus Occideit Superbium", that is, humility conquers pride.

If I wanted to write something that extensive, i would have had it published by now.  I get why you see me as you do...

You assume they are convoluted because when someone like you asks someone like me to "show you" how all of the above proves C you're expecting a one post answer.  Instead of meeting you at coffee shops for the next few years day after day or writing you 1000 + pages on the subject, we try to summarize so that at least there'd be interest on your part to pull out something from the mass information to discuss further.  Usually it's not "all the information" that can prove to one person that C is out there, rather it is a particular set of points.  E.g.

I could explain the science behind God till I'm blue in the face, but for certain people that will never work.  Some think science is flawed by nature because it is determined by human minds.  Others feel that if it's not able to be sampled and studied it does not exist.  So going on, we try other avenues.  

Statistics.. but some say they mean nothing.... mass audiences of claims don't make C true.

experiences... but personal experiences can be fabricated and thus cannot be trusted no matter how many reoccurances with unrelated people... 

History... that's good in all, but many fictional writings use real history and real events, thus the Bible must have done the same... 

Geology... same lines as history... they may prove that the people group existed,and even beleived in the Biblical God, but that doesn't prove C actually exists because there's no God DNA left behind... 

How about religious progression... sure, everything stemmed off of something else.. there of course had to be an origin for it somewhere... it doesn't matter that most major religions can be traced back to a Judeo/Christian origin, that just further proves they are made up...

How about trying to seek out God yourself and experiencing first hand what millions around the world are claiming... Either they've tried it or couldn't care to take the effort for something they already know is a waste of time. 

How about metaphysics?  well it's a science that cannot be taken seriously according to some.  Others who do take it seriously base it all on theory and thus it still cannot prove C because it's all theory. 

All the concepts are good, but in the end, if you really believe C does not exist, you will find a reason not to accept it.  The above are all excuses I've heard over the years discussing the subject. so I ask you... To what avenue would you be interested in me starting a whole new thread about and writing all I know so that we can discuss the possibility of C? 

I've tried that so many times... the typical expectation when I do that is shooting it down without proper research... so I like to reach out to your expertise so you can't use the ignorance excuse. 

To put one out there, Quantum physics. 

right, but unless that tiny bit of evidence is congruent with what the individual accepts as plausible, it makes no matter.  So much evidence has been put on this thread and others.  History is going in depth on another thread.  Science, statistics, geology etc has been discussed on other threads.  All those "tiny bits of evidence" lead to excuses as to why those tiny bits of evidence could have another explanation and thus don't necessarily point to God.  Do they make God plausible?  Sure, but only to those who would consider God as a factor.   Otherwise, I can replace the word "God" with any nonsense word and I'd get the same reaction. 

Just so there's no excuses not to address this above statement, i'll give you a tiny bit of evidence. 

There is a landbridge in the Reed sea that is in the vacinity of where it is understood that Moses and his people crossed to escape the pharaoh's army.  There's a lot more to that story and a lot more into the investigation, but that right there would be a tiny bit of evidence to put that story in plausible territory and put God in plausible light.  We can go on to discuss how water could have pulled off that land bridge, then rushed back... there are many natural explanations... some that can be backed up with geological history.  But of course then we get into the discussion that if it can be explained by natural occurances, God is not needed for the event despite how ironic it is that the water left in time for Moses' people to escape and rushed back in time to wipe out the army. 

your turn.  You wanted a tiny bit of evidence, there's one of many.  Now I'm waiting to hear why this isn't evidence.  I hope I"m wrong with my assumption

I'm not sure if you realize it, but that only further confirms what I'm claiming... not only that, but it also would not be unusual to find a tribe, now secluded that might have Abrahamic roots based on what you just wrote.  Case closed

exactly.  oh wait... you're claiming that archaeologists and theists who have doctoral degrees in such fields arrived at their own conclusion and tried to fit the evidence into the preconceived story? 

Hate to say this, but i've seen that on both sides.  Cant' use that against scripture.

one of the reasons why the "abrahamic religions" are so often grouped together as such is precisely because they are so anomalous. the "abrahamic" idea of revelation alone can be found practically nowhere else. we can say, very loosely, that almost all religions--certainly the so-called "high" religions--have their "scriptures," but pretty much none of them, particularly those that predate rabbinical judaism and christianity like the indian and chinese religions, would ever say those scriptures were delivered, either directly or indirectly, by some god. the buddhist and jain scriptures by definition cannot be of divine origin and the vedas, while considered by orthodox brahmins a repository of perfect knowledge, were not given forth as a revelation of any god. there is no such god in those traditions. come to think of it, the whole "abrahamic" notion of god is pretty anomalous too...

Pure classic projection.

Red herring or strawman? Maybe both. Either way, you continue to fail.

I love how deluded theists claim there is proof when it's been proved there isn't. Meanwhile the rational people just laugh at them. You can mimic me all you like, but every post you make digs a bigger grave as I prove you wrong over and over again. You're jumping topics because you still can't refute my first obliteration of your claims just means I'm making you a laughingstock in dozens of subjects. You'd be further ahead if you'd given up months ago.

  Re :: Time is Short

Nu 812

 
    ''For the scriptures are like a grain of wheat; when someone had sown it, when it had sprouted, fore if he or she loves it, seen many grains in place of one''  ¬ ApocJm (naghamm)
___  __  ___  

 
Sumero¬Babylonian Epic ::

''At the Lord of the sweet waters,  “power of waters”,  at the front of the boat snapped all
 around like a  infertile wolf, at Enki being at the back of the boat it flailed like a murderous lion.  'At that time there was a solitary tree, growing nearest the banks of the holy Euphrates, drinking water from the river Euphrates. The might of the south wind tore it out at the roots and snapped off its branches, the water of the Euphrates washed over it.  I, the woman who respects the words of the original Father of the god(s)
And I, the woman who respects the words of Enlil, I picked up the tree in my hand and took it into the city Uruk, took it into the 'garden' of Inanna, (Inanna's huluppu TREE, which is in the midst of the Paradise) . I (Inanna), the woman, did not plant the tree with my hand, I watered it with my foot..
 After five yrs. had gone by, then after ten years had gone by, the tree had grown stout, its' bark had not split, in the huluppu tree's base a Serpent that-Knows-no-Charm had made its' nest, in its' branches the AnZu (See: Tablets of Destiny) had hatched its' brood, in its' trunk; a she-wolf Demoness maid (the Mesopotamian demoness 'lilitu')  had built her home. The Divine maiden, someone whose destiny was decided by the gods, who laughs with a happy heart, the sacred [both sexually-exploited and simultaneously true "Bad Girl", honored by temple prostitution/ temple sex profession] Inanna was weeping.  Inanna received (?) ……, the kindling of fire, the extinguishing of fire,. "No, but I shall go to the place from whence I came. If you wish to come with me, come!" His sister having thus spoken to Gilgamesh, her brother Gilgamesh helped her in this matter .. Stood firm, therefore, he girded his loins .. Carrying his bronze axe for expeditions,  .. And In its' base the Serpent that Knows-no-Charm he slew.''
-- --
   Basic knowledge is a valuable place to start with just about anything. Although a large number of very important genres are expressed. I feel it my duty to not allow anyone to mischaracterize belief systems, unless they are so ear-piercingly strident in their manner they aren't worth ever bothering with. Focus on this truism, which is always the case. Various gods are always distinguishable. Usage or lifting of religio¬mythic motifs (and images) does not necessitate a guaranteed continuity, in light of the individuality of each one's personal distinct character, nature, biography, traits, and particular uniqueness conveyed, universally speaking from culture to culture!! Nor are ANY blank sheets to write whatever you'd like to upon or project on to either,. A type doesnt mean they are ever exactly the same, by any means! Parallels do, I'm afraid, breakdown, rightly so in the light of closer examination. Many understandably continue to deny, challenge, and outright refute this notion sacred marriage rites would be interchangable from within regional culture to culture, and across millennia, for instance. And even if there were an except to the rule, such as assimilation; it does not change the fact, each are NOT interchangable under any circumstances for the most part, understandably so.
 

{Eliz. Kunningham wrote}
 

''Well  we'll tell an old old story of how .. well we'll  tell us this story, the assertion "I am the whore and the holy one" would not have been a paradox at all. As Sophia cohabited with Samael's separate darkness. In ancient Sumer and Old Babylon, temple priestess/prostitutes of the goddess received the god-bearing stranger. Their sexual union was, for both participants, was annual reenactment and to an extent a communion with the divine. In many ancient cultures, in order for the land to prosper and for a king to have legitimacy in the eyes of the people, he had to celebrate the hieros gamos (sacred marriage) with a priestess, as a structure of society  In Sumer, the people sang ecstatic, erotic hymns to encourage and celebrate the marriage of the ill-fated shepherd-king Dumuzi with the goddess Inanna,  Embraces the Hierdoule. Here’s a passage from the Sacred Marriage Rite, at least in their ancient society, translated by an Ancient Near East Scholar:
 

The King goes with lifted head to the holy lap
He goes with lifted head to the holy lap of Inanna,
The King coming with lifted head,
Coming to my queen with lifted head'"
                                                                           ¬  Eliz. Kunningham (Novelist)
______________________________
                                   
   ''I produced thought about the Ennoias which came out of the undefiled Spirit, about the descent upon the water . .  the world had been prepared by the will of our sister Sophia - she who is a whore - because of the innocence which has not been uttered. And she did not ask anything from the All, nor from the greatness of the Assembly, nor from the Pleroma. Since she was first, she came forth to.. places for the Son of Light Gnostic"
                                                                          ¬ The Second Treatise of the Great Seth
**  **
  Further elaborated on the  Lower Sophia .. found throughout the codex(ices) from the text as 'the Holy Spirit' who 'is called the Mother of All' ..
     ''Do not be ignorant of me anywhere or any time. Be on your guard!
    Do not be ignorant of me.

  For I am she, the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
I am the members of my mother.
I am the barren one
    and many are her sons.
I am she whose wedding is great,
    and I have not taken a husband.
I am the midwife and she who does not bear.
I am the solace of my labor pains.
I am the bride and the bridegroom,
    and it is my husband who begot me.
I am the sister of my husband
    and he is my offspring.
I am the slave of him who prepared me ..
I am shame and boldness.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am war and peace.
Give heed to me.
                                                              ¬ The Thunder, Perfect Mind (naghamm)
**  **

Are you familiar with Quantum mechanics?  Remember, I said I want to use what you are familiar with and what you understand. 

As far as a link, I've only read books on the subject and haven't done much online Quantum based research.  With a quick google search I find random sites that don't really discuss the link but suggest that God is in everything.  Thank you Dali Lama.  For starters, see if you can get your hands on "God is not Dead" by Amit Goswami, PHD.  He goes into great detail using Quantum mechanics and about "Quantum signatures of the Divine".  If you can't get your hands on it, we can try taking exerpts and discussing them. 

... is that what I admitted?  Consider the details of the story.  That would be once piece of the puzzle yet you dismiss it as even a possibility to look into the story further.  I feel like we're not going to get far in Quantum Mechanics if this is your approach.

With what you had written you just claimed it... how about looking back in your research that you based your last quote on and you name for me one of them mentioned.  I've already told you I don't remember the name of the one in question and it's not really my focus of research.

I agree with you completely here... I've still seen it on both sides and so it cannot be used against scripture.  Sorry.

Were there a compelling reason to embark on that path, then I would. You said in another thread something along the lines of "If I were trying to demonstrate the truth of the bible, I would not begin with the flood". What would you begin with? Where would you start? Your other thread with PJTS is sort of going in order of the bible and going point by point (in a thread where you are not holding your own IMO). So I'm asking again, where would you start?

Prematurely. My point here is this. You claim to have a concise and logical reason to believe this. You claim that it would take years or several thousand pages of print to explain it. Has anybody ever published this sort of concise explanation? If not, then you are claiming that you can. If Christianity is true, then this is obviously an extraordinarily important thing. Even if it were to take a long time to do, this should be of the utmost importance. However, you haven't written such a thing. Either you deem it not important to save us heathens, or you don't have such a concise and logical reason to believe in your religion. Judging by your posts, I'm leaning heavily towards the latter as a reason. Your responses in this thread, the flood thread, and in the PJTS bible thread are almost all 100% insufficient to make your case. They're mostly very bad counter-arguments, erroneous accusations of logical fallacies, or one sentence answers where they don't even apply (such as the one I'm responding to). You may think "I rest my case" is sufficient when I say that I won't buy that. I don't think it is. My post quoted here is saying, in short, IF it were possible to write an indisputable case for Christianity being true, no matter how long, it would have been done. Once it had been done, it would have been spread to all other Christian institutions immediately in order to innoculate their followers 100% from apostasy. It would then have been spread to the non-Christians in order to convert them once in for all. No such thing has ever happened. You seem to imply that you could write such a thing (but won't). If I'm wrong and that's not what you're implying, then the only thing left is "well you can't prove it, so you have to have faith". In that scenario, I will rest my case, as faith is always divorced from evidence. Since evidence has proven time and time again to be the BEST way to know anything, I will take it every single time over faith.

Yes, the Vatican are great at this you're right (uh oh, this might be sarcasm). In the case of Mother Teresa, where they claim she posthumously cured a cancerous tumour, it's documented quite well that what cured the woman was not a divine intercession, but an intervention by a real doctor, who can tell you what the growth was (not cancerous to my recollection) and what it was that made the growth go away.

Since that one is a widely scrutinized and mentioned case, I decided to look at those canonized in the last decade and pick one. I ended up finding Marianne Cope. Her first miracle was apparently to cure someone experiening multiple organ system failure some time after having had a tumour removed (hence the miracle was curing the multiple OSF, not the cancer). While the doctors don't know what caused the positive turn around, it does not mean that there wasn't an earthly reason for it. I did a quick search regarding organ system failure and found this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2370825

Considering that Katherine Dehlia Mahoney (the patient) had 3 or more organs failing or improperly functioning, it does indeed seem to be that the outlook was bleak at the time, with a probability of mortality clocking in at above 90%. However, note that the probability is not 100%. Now, if you were able to take all the <10% situations...ALL of them, and attribute your god to them, that would be incredible.  Since we know that such spontaneous recoveries, albeit rare, do happen, then chalking it up to intercession is an erroneous application of causality. Also, consider how many people are Catholics and would ask for intercession of this sort.  What I have never seen recorded by the church EVER is the duds. I wonder how many people prayed to Mother Teresa (more than most potential saints I'm sure due to her world-wide fame) and didn't get cured. I would venture quite a lot. The Catholic church's abstension from recording that means that they DON'T do a good job of documenting miracles, and are appealing to nothing but confirmation bias when it comes to these miracles. I would venture that far more people have prayed to Mother Teresa world-wide than Marianne Cope, but the latter has already been sainted. The former has not, yet people still keep on trying, and the second that 2nd miracle comes about, she will be sainted, despite all of the times praying to her didn't work.

On your second point there, it's not your job to convince me that your god is real. That is correct. However, atheism is the default position. If you are unable to provide good evidence of your god existing, then you have no good reason to believe in that god. That is all. The burden of proof when it comes to Christianity vs. not, will always sit on the shoulders of the Christian. Now if you don't care to provide proof, that's fine. However you are at this forum, hence you seem to have some interest in it, hence why we keep pressing you here.

Ok. Do you believe that religions experienced a progression througout the years in human culture to eventually change into what they are now? Or do you believe that 2000 years ago a Jew who was god was born of a virgin, told us we required saving, was correct, then died (which somehow saved us) then came back from the dead, and the only documentation to support this is a book compiled with obvious bias which we are expected to take at face value without questioning, and our failure to do so will result in our eternal torture after we die?

What the hell does that even mean? So which religions?

Also, Abraham wasn't Jewish because the Abraham of the old testament is a wholly fictional character. The non-existence of the tribe is only half the worries there.

Oh I tried that too. You can tell me all you want that I did it wrong, but let me assure you that there was a time when I was lost, and wanted nothing more than to find god. My inability to find him falls squarely on his shoulders if he exists.

I'd multiply that few million by 0. I agree that the percentage that have some education regarding their faith is far lower. I just think that it's completely incoherent in the end.

How does one begin to examine the metaphysical? I'm honestly curious, because I didn't know that this was a real thing.

Your runthrough is a chronological one. As mentioned above, I want you to start what you feel is a position of strength in validating some important bits of the bible. Pick whichever one is the absolute easiest for you to prove (and something that actually has implications, not "Israel is a country" or something easy like many people try to do).

That's an awful starting point, because the plausibility of god is very vague. Is this god the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god that many Christians claim he is? If you just say "start with god being possible, then read the bible" then of course it might sound a little more sensible if you don't actually attach any attributes to this god. Anything that happens in the bible that doesn't seemingly make sense, that seems to contradict another part, that seems to be abhorrent, that seems to contradict what we know for certain of science or history, can be explained away in two words if you start with that. The words? Because, god! If your god is able to wipe away the concerns I just listed (contradictions, historical and scientific inaccuracies) then we live in a world where science and logic are actually completely worthless.

Quantum signatures? What is that? Googling it has shown me a quantum digital signature (which can't apply to this argument) and a link to the Star Trek wiki...please explain what you mean and provide some reading material I'll gladly take in.

Fossil gaps...your bringing up of fossil gaps at all shows the straws you are grasping at. The reason we have fossil gaps? Because nobody was causing things to fossilize for humans to later find them and fill out a chart showing the tree of life. Fossilization just happens. It's also important to note that it doesn't happen very often. We are extremely fortunate to have the fossils that we do. It takes a very specific set of circumstances for fossilization to occur. The existence of these gaps is not troubling at all. Let's go back to some basics here. Biologists know and can tell you that when a sexually reproducing species reproduce, they get have the genetic info from each parent. The sperm or egg can (to my knowledge, someone correct me if I'm wrong here) be bad copies (also known as, contain mutations) so you could have an odd trait that doesn't match that of either parent. Also, after the sperm and egg form the zygote, other mutations can occur afterwards as well. A biologist can tell you the % rate of change that is possible (and what is most common, what is plausible, etc) from generation to generation. Then we can take the DNA of something like a human and a bonobo chimpanzee. From looking at the % of difference, we can therefore infer, with a reasonable level of accuracy, how many generations had to have elapsed for some common ancestor of both primates to had eventually yielded the 2 specimens being tested. There may be fossil gaps that make it harder for us to deduce exactly what order some of these genetic changes occurred, but the homology of organs, bone structure, and the similarity in the DNA, is more than enough proof that life has evolved on its own requiring no assistance. Kenneth Miller (Catholic) and Francis Collins (Christian) are both very well known biologists. I'm not sure if they think that evolution was guided or not, or if it was pushed along in some way. I don't think I've ever heard them say it, but if they did, they both are intellectually honest enough to tell you that the science works just fine without that assumption.

Now as far as science not proving that there is no god, you are correct. However, Christianity is a religion that can not be divorced from the scriptures that posit its truth. Those scriptures are largely incompatible with science (and history for that matter), and to my satisfaction, Christianity is renedered untrue. I'm an atheist. An agnostic atheist, but only just. I can't prove that there is no god. However, I am not agnostic about my aChristianity. I am 100% certain that Christianity is not true. There could be something similar to Christianity that is true (if the bible was written to allude to real events, but distorted by its keepers in order to control a populace). However, the differences to what is considered Christianity would be, to me, significant enough that calling it Christianity wouldn't make sense.

Also, what quantum mechanics goes into supernatural possibilities and downward causation? Just because quantum mechanics is highly mysterious, doesn't mean anything except for our inability to grasp why it works. Don't go throwing it into the mix just because of how hard it is for humans to understand. That's Deepak Chopra territory of.....bullshit. (hey, you asked for it...just wanted to finish strong)

Like I said, I have been ignorant of the subject previously. An ignorance that I am currently working to correct.

From what I know of Dr. Goswami, the god he hypothesizes is absolutely nothing like the Christian concept of god. He also believes in reincarnation and several other ideas stemming from Buddhism. Are you now a Buddhist? If you are a Christian you must consider Dr. Goswami to be a quack, his hypothesis are not consistent with Christianity. The only Abrahamic god they have any consistency with is Allah, and even that is a stretch.

I doubt we will get far in quantum mechanics at all. I suspect that your knowledge of quantum mechanics is even more limited than your knowledge of archaeology. The only reason we will get anywhere at all is that my knowledge of quantum mechanics is far more limited than my knowledge of archaeology, so it will take me longer to point out your bullshit as bullshit. I did get quite a laugh that the first authority you appeal to is anti-christian, even though I agree with Christians that the guy is a complete quack. He relies on his audience being ignorant. Meanwhile, scientists move well past Goswami and find evidence that his mystic bullshit is indeed bullshit.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=bringing-schrodingers-quantum-cat-to-life

http://www.nature.com/news/a-boost-for-quantum-reality-1.10602

http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-function-reality.html

http://arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/measure-of-things/4418902/Quantum-wave-functions-come-alive–May-the-Bohr-Model-rest-in-peace

Berber, Dahomey, Waaq, Bantu, Mbuti, Odinani and Egyptian are the African mythologies I am most knowledgeable of.

It can be used against anyone who uses the tactic and you use it a lot. This entire thread is based upon you attempting to force reality to fit a preconceived story that you decided is true.

I never claimed to be an expert in Archaeology, but I would say do to your claims of knowledge as well, this would apply to you more than me.

Hey all, i first wanted to appologize for the absence... I'm not sure if anyone else had the issue, but I was unable to sign in for the longest time.  I've also been quite busy with family and work so my time to check in and see if I could get in is limited.  I hope we can pick up where we left off.

-- cap 

I have provided you dozens of reputable sources to support each of the points I have made. To date, you have provided two sources, the Bible itself and a crazy geologist from Australia who you said you don't believe yourself. That is why you have changed your explanation about the story a dozen times. You followed the exact same pattern when being pressed for evidence of demons. In both cases, you assume the story is true and find explanations to work around any evidence you are presented with- rather than use the evidence available and attempt to draw conclusions from it. 

discussion and conversation.... different facts work for different people... there's no one right way to the truth.

sure it is, why is that weird? 

You had asked what the process would be... I detailed the process.  Since when was this detailed process any assumption of conculsion between us?  We haven't even begun the discussion.  

no... if I can't establish it to YOUR satisfaction, that could mean either I lose, or you choose not to accept the facts offered.  I can't prove to someone that black holes exist unless they actually want to accept the facts behind them.  Same with God.

you asked for a process.. if you're so ready to start the conversation, then let's stop with the BS and start with what you understand of metaphysics. In other words, how credible and as to what angle to you find it useful.

We haven't even established the metaphysical yet... how are you already on the Bible?  

Wha?? uh.. so you're statment makes the assumption that 1.  I'm the only spokesman for Christianity, 2.  all others who might speak for God only talk to you... If you can't get out of these types of funk thoughts, we're not going to make it far in the metaphysical converation... we'll never make it to the Bible.

I never claimed that none of them can be true. I did say that they can't all be true as they're often mutually exclusive. That's not absurd, that's just logic. I merely stated that it's more likely that none of them are true than that one of them specifically is true, and the rest not.

No I didn't. Anyway, let's continue. 

What? I was calling you out here for being as un-specific as you possibly could when I asked you to be specific. 

You mean this? http://www.amazon.com/Vincents-Word-Studies-Testament-Volume/dp/0917006305 

That is perplexing. I believe you said earlier in a thread that you knew your Hebrew, but not so much your Greek. I must say it's odd that you released a 4 volume series of books talking about the vocabulary of the new testament. Very odd indeed. I can not understand it at all. Also, if you wrote that, you might want to include the apostrophe in "Vincent's". I figure someone who wrote something that long would get the name right. 

Fair enough

I have no clue what you're talking about here. It has nothing to do with the point I made. The point is that you seem to spend ample time on this site, and say that you legitimately care about our internal souls. I'm not sure how this helps on any significant scale. 

More gibberish. It's like we're not even having a discussion sometimes. 

Can you read what you wrote? That also makes 0 sense. Belief addresses whether you accept a proposition as true or not. Faith is belief without evidence (at least in the context usually found on this forum). 

Yes you are. I am telling you why you're wrong. You said "The evidence needs to come first... then faith comes in for the aspects that we just can't answer". You are basically saying here that employing a god of the gaps answer to everything is logical. Guess what...it's not.

What?? You mentioned in this particular line of conversations that sometimes we have to deal with incomplete information with an example of assuming something is a pen because it looks like one. Then you examine it later and confirm it's a pen. Then you present a situation where a closer examination is impossible. Is it still right to assume it to be a pen? Yes. Why? Because we know pens exist. This does not apply to a god at all, as we don't have other gods you can present to me. I have other pens. 

No I'm not saying this at all. Are you saying that a progressive logical conversation is impossible unless I first prove that we don't live in a virtual reality of some sort? I don't get why you typed what you just did here. 

No you're not. You are not showing me that pen. Not even close. I asked you for specifics earlier, and you gave me nothing. 

Then you followed up with another badly written paragraph I won't even respond to, as it makes no sense. 

So if it's god's will, what is prayer for? My point in saying what I said was that if so many people pray to mother teresa to intercede, statistically it's likely that one will experience something like spontaneous remission. Of course in the case of her first alleged miracle, there are doctors who will tell you exactly why the woman's growth went away, and it had nothing to do with prayer. Also, her husband would have told you before (until he changed his mind suddenly, with probably a lot of pressure to do exactly that). I wouldn't be surprised if it was something more sinister than just social pressure either, seeing he changed his tune quite quickly. Spontaneous remission of cancer does happen, to people of any faith in fact. How can you establish causation in this situation? The truth is, you can't. If something ACTUALLY miraculous happened, and it ONLY happened due to Christian prayer, you would have some footing to stand on. The truth is, it hasn't, and you don't. 

And then you brag about it instead of actually addressing what I said. I just called you out for failing to respond to a point of mine, and your response is "I read your quotes better than you read mine" and a failure to address it again. So do you concede the miracles argument? Or do you have something in response to what I just presented?

If Jesus being a historical person is compelling evidence to you, so be it. It does not convince me. I do believe that Jesus was a historical person as far as someone who had a small following during his lifetime, and was crucified. I have reasons to believe that that wasn't made up. However, how do you get from him being a historical person to him being the son of god? To his crucifixion saving us? To him rising from the dead? To him being born a virgin? 

I'm not asking you what evidence do you have that jews existed? I'm asking what evidence you had that specific characters in the old testament were real historical people? With Jesus, you do have records, although no contemporaneous ones. To me that suggets that he simply wasn't too noticed during his lifetime, but as his following grew after his death, he may have been a notable figure to right about. When it comes to Abraham, there are no records to my knowledge to suggest that he was real. 

What if some of them are on the right track, but one of them has the closest understanding while still having its problems?  There are a few that are in the ballpark.  

NO, I'm sorry.  I meant my copy.  I'm getting rid of the sets I own.   I did not write them.... and yes that looks like the one.  As you can tell, it's not an easy sell.

Can you ever think a rational thought??? even for a moment?  This is why I had doubts that a logical conversation could happen with you.  How about think outside the last sentence for a moment and consider that there are not a lot of Christians on sites like these... where do you think the rest of the legitimate Christians are? 

When you said; "So it's important for me to be saved, but not those who don't visit this site" I took that as the works of all true followers.  We work as a unit.  Everyone has their calling.  Those who are not on sites like these are reaching out to those who don't visit this site.  I also do reach out to those not on this site.  This is not my only work.  

faith is belief without evidence, but it has to be based on something, otherwise there's not even a concept to have faith in.  Christains don't have faith in God just because some ancients put words on parchment. 

uh..no not what I'm saying.  Faith in a God we don't know is not faith.  that's what I'm saying.  

uh actually there are plenty of other gods to pick from, do your history homework and pull one out of the hat.  

except that it has and is documented as mentioned... yes miracles happen to people of any faith.  What are the patterns, why were they healed, what were the actions of those who love them... were there prayers involved at all was there another faith involved?  That gets deep, but it all matters.  Satan works too.  

yea, miracles happen, they're documented and cross referenced with doctors and neutral entities.  

well, it is quite a journey from there to here.  One would need to start seeking God in all of it.  Is He really there, was Jesus really Gods son.  Probably doing homework on the character of Jesus and the claims, praying about it, talking to others about it in and outside the faith.  etc.  You will find that Jesus paralleled the Bible personality pretty well.  The only part that can't be proven is the miracles He performed... for obvious reasons.  

well, there are tablets with Davidian inscriptions, there are over 20,000 tablets that paint the picture of the cultures around Abraham's location and time, fits the story very well.  There is reason to believe an artifact found may have been a part of Solomon's staff, etc.  

Because many of them are mutually exclusive about key issues. 

Ok, I thought you were implying something else. My mistake. 

I don't know where they are, but my point stands. If Christianity were actually completely coherent, and one, just ONE Christian figured out how to communicate that well, you figure they would. Since hell is punishment for disbelief, such a Christian would want to save everyone. Nobody's ever done it. 

Fair enough, however I re-iterate the point I just made above. 

Of course it has to be based on something. It doesn't mean it has to be rational. I was simply providing concise definitions for words that got muddied up earlier. 

So you're saying "faith comes in for the aspects that we just can't answer" but then go and say that you know this god, therefore you know the answer? Now I'm very confused. Wait, no I'm not. Christianity doesn't make any sense, so the problems here are expected. 

Not ones that have been proven to exist. This answer doesn't really help your position as you would probably say that all of those other gods are indeed not real. 

No. Simply...no. As I said with the first Mother Teresa miracle, the doctors who treated the woman will tell you exactly what happened! No supernatural intervention was necessary, yet the church view it as a miracle. 

As far as Satan, how does he work? How powerful is he? 

I provided an example where doctors were ignored. An example involving quite a famous person. Why have you failed to respond to anything regarding Monica Besra's doctors, who have said in no uncertain terms that the woman's tumour disappeared as a result of the medication she was prescribed, which she said she took as prescribed? Is this still a miracle? You may have faith in the RC church's process, but I think the hastiness with which this "miracle" occurred suggests more that an influential public figure like Mother Teresa is one you want to canonize quickly. It was a marketing move, nothing more. 

There is a remarkably small amount of historical record of Jesus, so comparing that to the bible account isn't worthwhile. You can't verify the miracles, you are correct. So what's more likely, that one single man bucked a trend and performed all of those miracles, or that it's just another myth?  

And in another post you mentioned that you believe Abraham existed because you know god, not because of evidence. That's all I need to know I suppose. It's faith, not evidence. I won't accept that as compelling. 

but that doesn't answer the what if.  but the mutually exclusive key issues is something to consider.

I didn't make it clear... no worries.

hell is not punishment for disbelief.  I do want to save everyone, but unfortunately that is beyond my abilities.  I cannot save anyone, people must save themselves and God can only open there eyes if they allow Him to.  i can only be a messenger.  

alright, how does it not help then?  I'm not sure how else to explain it.

Ok, well I do agree with you here.

no, these problems should not exist within the faith... blindly accepting them as you seem to imply above is a mistake many Chrsitians make.  I will try to clarify

We know the How (to a degree), we know the Who, but we can't always know the Why, there's where the faith comes in.  We have faith that the "Why" is for a greater good though we may never understand it fully.

Not necessarily.  Many historical gods were people claiming to be god or a god.  Some I believe are demons decieving people into thinking they are their god.  Some may actually be mythical and based on very little.  

the problem with that conclusion is the Vatican interviews the doctors involved... if what you say is true, then the Vatican themselves would have already deemed this situation not valid.

Satan is a fallen high angel, so He would be as powerful as the most powerful of angels, but still less powerful than God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.  He works in deceptive ways, He is called; "the father of lies".   the biggest mistake people make about Satan is to think that He is opposed to "good things"... He's not, rather He is opposed to God and anything God stands for.  it is said that God can give people good things so they don't seek out God.  Satan would rather have it that way.

If it was just a random single man that did as you said, it would be more reasonable to claim that it was just a myth, however... there were many who came before Jesus and many who came after Jesus claiming to be the Messiah.  why did none of them get such dramatic recognition?

I wouldn't expect you to

That's splitting hairs on the more money vs. less expenditures. You ignore times when he doesn't do either despite prayer, and people lose their cars, homes, and can't feed their children. What your second paragraph implies is that god does have an ultimate plan, and it also implies that when someone dies, even due to murder or genocide, it was a net positive event. You're saying that you don't know why it was good that people spend their last moments being raped and murdered in this world, but it was a part of god's plan. What you're saying is that your god couldn't have implemented a plan that didn't require a lot of rape, murder and genocide. Some god that is. I can't say that that wasn't a god's plan, but I can say it wasn't the plan of an all-powerful and all-loving one. That much is certain. Oh but he tinkered with your family's finances. Hallelujah, praise the lord. My aunt was raped and murdered while hitchhiking (before I was born). Why not a rain-storm or something (natural occurence since violating free will is a breach of contract) to encourage her to not travel to the location where her murderer(s) picked her up? Nope. That had to happen. He couldn't tinker with that. 

Was there far more stupid people ~2008 owning houses? No. The economy simply burst under pressure of leveraged money, loans, etc. These people may have made what was at the time perfectly reasonable decisions. Hell, anyone who was renting was probably better off then, even though being a homeowner is in almost any other situation the better way to go.

Your bills didn't "work themselves out" as you are about to explain

They didn't need their son dying suddenly at age 26. I can guarantee you that. Also, I don't believe they have gone all Job about it and praised god any more than befor, nor do I believe that they have started any charities. They're just trying to cope. 

Poor judgement on peoples' part. Ok. The situation I spoke of was simply someone dying for medical reasons which I have not been told the details of. What was the result? Grief. Sadness. Wouldn't it be nicer if someone "almost" died, then was miraculously healed? Then perhaps they would praise god, AND be happier that their family member was still among us? 

See Beyond Saving's post re: the bolded part. I will also bold the part below where you blatantly contradict exactly that. 

Also, just because you're not yelling your beliefs through a megaphone in a public square doesn't make them any more rational. It just means you made that one better decision than the crackpots. 

Aaand here you go. Of course you don't think that the world of finance is some magical autonomous entity. It is something that is managed by people. People have to make decisions for anything to happen there. If you attribute these things happening to god, then god would have had to influence their decisions, or as you said "interfere with the choices of others". Blatant contradictions from you in one single post.

That was in response to you saying that your scenario (you prayed, and it got better) was ironic. That is not the correct application of the concept of irony. Don't learn your concept of irony from an Alanis Morisette song. The song is wrong in every single example. 

No I wouldn't. I'm convinced that you exist already based on your posting here. God has not provided as much evidence for his existence as you have. To me, you are a poster named "Caposkia" as I don't know your name otherwise. You could be several people, but I find your style of posting consistent enough that I accept you to be one person.

Which part of the bible did you start with that led you on the path?

If he did, then he WOULD show himself. You have that quite backwards. If he wants people to know him, all he has to do is show up and have a chat. 

Why does a human being unjustly tortured and killed forgive someone else's wrongdoing? Also, what did we all do to be condemned? I understand that theologically it was just an ancestor of ours. It is not just to punish someone for the wrongdoings of their parents, grandparents, etc.

Exactly. Thomas ALREADY had way more evidence than we ever did. Being an apostle, he would have seen some serious miracles up to that point. Even after that, he still didn't buy it, and was then given a chance to go up close to a reanimated corpse with what in any normal person would amount to fatal wounds. If that actually happened, and I was there, that would more than do it for me. In fact, if I saw him turn water into wine, raise Lazarus, reattach (perfectly) a guard's ear, and cure a disease (leprosy) that at the time was seen as incurable, I wouldn't have doubted it as far as Thomas did. To say that we have equivalent evidence today is to be dishonest or deluded.

Once again, I can't understand how vicarious redemption can possibly work, let alone how it can be a good thing. The whole thing reeks of "we all deserve nothing but eternal torment, buuuut I will graciously allow you to instead live in eternal bliss....if you throw your mental faculties to the wind and devote your life to groveling before me." Is there anything inaccurate about my portrayal here?

You haven't even demonstrated that a god is more likely to exist than not. To get to where your second paragraph here is, you would have to do that, AND demonstrate that the Christian god is the likeliest one to exist. Pascal's wager restated for the millionth time is no more convincing than it was the first time. 

I didn't work with creditors to reduce my bills.  Rather opportunities just happened to present themselves.  No interference of choices.  

I don't thank God for the good choices people make.  I may thank God for allowing those good choices to affect me positively.  Christians have a saying;  Satan's not opposed to good, he's opposed to God.   In other words, even Satan can "do good"... so you're right, your perspective is quite narcissistic and rude.  

To add to that, the good choices people make in the name of God are to be credited to God because they did it in His name.  

As far as giving credit to those who do good, why wouldn't you?  What are we in North Korea?  I think you've been blinded by the cults of the world.  As usual your perspectives are not very Biblical