Two firefighters MURDERED BY GUN, FUCK THE NRA!

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Two firefighters MURDERED BY GUN, FUCK THE NRA!

I am sick of the same old bullshit. 4 Firefighters were shot by a gunman and 2 of them died. I'm sorry, they were assaulted by water balloons.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/30673 ... house-fire

 

 

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What else Brian?

 

 

 

               The link didn't work for me can you double check.  Eather way it is all for the greater glory of the NRA, a chicken in every pot and 2 machine guns & recoiless rifle at every fire station.

 

 

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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

               The link didn't work for me can you double check.  Eather way it is all for the greater glory of the NRA, a chicken in every pot and 2 machine guns & recoiless rifle at every fire station.

 

It's all over the news.  http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/two-firefighters-shot-killed-while-responding-webster-n-163105823.html

 

Quote:

A man with a criminal history shot and killed two West Webster, N.Y. firefighters and seriously injured two others as they responded to a fire at his home., police say.

William Spangler, 62, apparently started a 5:35 a.m. fire at his home on Lake Road  and then waited with an armament of weapons for first responders to arrive, Webster N.Y. Police Chief Gerald Pickering said at an afternoon news conference.

“He was shooting from high ground or a berm," Pickering said. "He was barricaded with weapons to shoot first responders."

Spangler shot and killed himself at the scene, Pickering said.

Spangler was convicted in 1981 in the death of his grandmother a year earlier. He served time in prison and was released in 1998, Pickering said.

Local police had not noted any criminal activity in his recent past, Pickering said.

Pickering said they are looking into the apparent disappearance of Pickering's sister who is unaccounted for at this time.

Police and fire officials are continuing to gather evidence and will inspect the seven homes that were destroyed in the fire that spread to nearby houses in the small lakeside town located 10 miles east of Rochester.

The victims in the shooting are Mike Chiapperini, also a lieutenant and public information officer with the local police department, and Tomasz Kaczowka, Pickering said.

"These are volunteers who get up in the middle of the night to fight fires. They don't expect to be shot and killed," a tearful Pickering said at the press conference.

Chiapperini was described by Pickering as a lifelong firefighter who started with the department's explorer program and had about 20 years of experience. Kaczowka was a younger firefighter who was on the force for about two years and was also a 911 dispatcher, he said.

West Webster firefighters Joseph Hofsetter and Theodore Scardino were seriously injured and are at Strong Memorial Hospital with gunshot wounds, a hospital spokeswoman said.  Scardino  has  injuries to his chest and lungs. Hofsetter was injured in the pelvis, the spokeswoman said at a media briefing. Both are in guarded condition, she said.

An off-duty police officer from nearby Greece, N.Y., John Ritter was also injured by shrapnel during the shooting, Pickering said.

Pickering said that one of the firefighters who survived made his way across a bridge to safety. The other three did not make it across, Pickering said. Police arrived and rescued the other three firefighters, but two were fatally shot, Pickering said.

The morning scene was described as chaotic as police and firefighters dealt with an immense blaze as well as gunshots,  local news station WHAM-TV  reports.

“I’m not aware of anything like this happening in Webster, obviously not a firefighter being fired upon,” Webster Fire Marshal Rob Boutillier told the Democrat and Chronicle.  Pickering described Webster as resort lakeside community that is quiet and usually peaceful.

 

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I agree with Brian, "Fuck

I agree with Brian, "Fuck the NRA", which is basically the Mafia and the Unions rolled together in to one giant cluster fuck of a corrupt burrito.

But...

This guy was a career criminal. Current reports are that he killed his mother and that his sister is missing?

This guy was fucked in the head.

All the more reason to test people, like when you go to get your drivers license or any other license (hunting, business, etc).

People need to be tested. Sick people need to be institutionalized.

 


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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

 

 

 

               The link didn't work for me can you double check.  Eather way it is all for the greater glory of the NRA, a chicken in every pot and 2 machine guns & recoiless rifle at every fire station.

 

 

Yes, the thought of a bullet tearing through human flesh is so empowering, so much so it is as American as Apple pie. Gives you such a warm fuzzy feeling doesn't it?

Who cares how many people get killed by gun death as long as others get to have the feeling of having huge dicks.

 

 

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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I agree with Brian, "Fuck the NRA", which is basically the Mafia and the Unions rolled together in to one giant cluster fuck of a corrupt burrito.

But...

This guy was a career criminal. Current reports are that he killed his mother and that his sister is missing?

This guy was fucked in the head.

All the more reason to test people, like when you go to get your drivers license or any other license (hunting, business, etc).

People need to be tested. Sick people need to be institutionalized.

 

I don't give a fuck. If gun owners were so responsible as a whole, then the criminals wouldn't be getting a hold of guns(via theft or lying on an application). The "responsible" gun CLIMATE is not locking them up enough safely, the shops and shows are NOT keeping them out of the hands of criminals.

"Blame the criminals, not the law abiding citizens" is the excuse.

ENOUGH!

Those guns ALWAYS start out being legally made or legally owned and criminals and sickos get them. If the "responsible" gun owners were doing enough we would NOT have the amount of gun death we do.

That rifle that guy used to MURDER two firefighters obviously was not locked up to the point that criminal couldn't get a hold of it. That rifle that the mentally handicap kid got a hold of and the handguns as well were LEGALLY PURCHASED!

Where is the responsibility of gun owners and gun sellers? It is bullshit to say they are doing a good job keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and mentally handicap. If gun manufactures and gun owners were so responsible we would not have the gun death epidemic we do.

So the NRA has a choice. They want to bitch about rights, but don't want to do a fucking thing to reduce gun death. If the NRA won't work with society then it needs to be left behind. WHAT CANNOT HAPPEN is to maintain the status quo.

 

 

 

 

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 This story is sad, however

 This story is sad, however the title of this thread just plays into the gun advocates.  They like to say guns don't kill people, people kill people.  This thread titled "murdered by gun" probably should say "murdered by gunman."  The gunman would not have been as likely to kill these first responders had he only been using a knife.  

 

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In fact, without guns the

In fact, without guns the whole scenario, fire included, would not have happened. The fire was set to draw the fighters into an ambush, which wouldn't have been effective with a knife.

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Sapient wrote: This story

Sapient wrote:

 This story is sad, however the title of this thread just plays into the gun advocates.  They like to say guns don't kill people, people kill people.  This thread titled "murdered by gun" probably should say "murdered by gunman."  The gunman would not have been as likely to kill these first responders had he only been using a knife.  

 

You got a point there. But damn man, I don't know if there are many people living in America who don't know of someone affected by gun death. I know of people who survived attempted assaults but survive or not, this wild west attitude about guns is outright absurd and deadly.

 

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Vastet wrote:In fact,

Vastet wrote:
In fact, without guns the whole scenario, fire included, would not have happened. The fire was set to draw the fighters into an ambush, which wouldn't have been effective with a knife.

 

I love it when the nutters point out other forms of assault and murder failing to understand that a gun allows you more distance and ease without fear of harm.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:I don't give a

Brian37 wrote:
I don't give a fuck. If gun owners were so responsible as a whole, then the criminals wouldn't be getting a hold of guns(via theft or lying on an application). The "responsible" gun CLIMATE is not locking them up enough safely, the shops and shows are NOT keeping them out of the hands of criminals.

"Blame the criminals, not the law abiding citizens" is the excuse.

ENOUGH!

Those guns ALWAYS start out being legally made or legally owned and criminals and sickos get them. If the "responsible" gun owners were doing enough we would NOT have the amount of gun death we do.

 

You are fighting 50 years of the "2nd Amendment" where people have been stockpiling thousands of guns. They have more ammo, more weapons and more things that most armories on military bases have; which is scary.

Today, if you have every been to a gun show, it's a fucking joke. You can find loop holes around all the laws and you can purchase any thing off the Internet. The gun dealers don't give a fuck about the laws. They will do any thing to make a sale, to make a buck.

And you aren't going to get those people with all those guns and ammo (some not registered) to give them up because no one knows they have them. Then when these people die of old age or car accidents (etc) family members will sell off those weapons on Craigslist and they eventually end up in the hands of criminals.

Don't forget. The NRA is here to protect you too.

 


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Sapient wrote: This story

Sapient wrote:

 This story is sad, however the title of this thread just plays into the gun advocates.  They like to say guns don't kill people, people kill people.  This thread titled "murdered by gun" probably should say "murdered by gunman."  The gunman would not have been as likely to kill these first responders had he only been using a knife.  

 

The saying should be, "Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people"


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I saw this video link on

I saw this video link on another atheist  website but it does aptly describe how loony the gun nutters are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCtD3OJ-_Es&feature=player_embedded

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This is a serious issue that

This is a serious issue that government must take an action, the government must change the law and will not give a “permission to carry permit” to those who are not responsible of handling guns.

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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I agree with Brian, "Fuck the NRA", which is basically the Mafia and the Unions rolled together in to one giant cluster fuck of a corrupt burrito.

But...

This guy was a career criminal. Current reports are that he killed his mother and that his sister is missing?

This guy was fucked in the head.

All the more reason to test people, like when you go to get your drivers license or any other license (hunting, business, etc).

People need to be tested. Sick people need to be institutionalized.

 

 If gun manufactures and gun owners were so responsible we would not have the gun death epidemic we do.

So the NRA has a choice. They want to bitch about rights, but don't want to do a fucking thing to reduce gun death. If the NRA won't work with society then it needs to be left behind. WHAT CANNOT HAPPEN is to maintain the status quo.

 

IF... That is a huge if. We can if all day long. if this and if that. Do you propose any action being taken? If so, what exactly?

Gun death epidemic huh? Are you aware of world events and the " gun death epidemic" in the rest of the world? The US has lived in an illusion of safety for a long time. This "epidemic" is just a part of life in the majority of the rest of the world man.

 

If we make more laws the result will be that more laws will be broken.

You are wrong in placing blame on everything but the man that committed the horrible crime. 100% of the blame belongs on him and his actions. 


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Mintyfell wrote:Brian37

Mintyfell wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I agree with Brian, "Fuck the NRA", which is basically the Mafia and the Unions rolled together in to one giant cluster fuck of a corrupt burrito.

But...

This guy was a career criminal. Current reports are that he killed his mother and that his sister is missing?

This guy was fucked in the head.

All the more reason to test people, like when you go to get your drivers license or any other license (hunting, business, etc).

People need to be tested. Sick people need to be institutionalized.

 

 If gun manufactures and gun owners were so responsible we would not have the gun death epidemic we do.

So the NRA has a choice. They want to bitch about rights, but don't want to do a fucking thing to reduce gun death. If the NRA won't work with society then it needs to be left behind. WHAT CANNOT HAPPEN is to maintain the status quo.

 

IF... That is a huge if. We can if all day long. if this and if that. Do you propose any action being taken? If so, what exactly?

Gun death epidemic huh? Are you aware of world events and the " gun death epidemic" in the rest of the world? The US has lived in an illusion of safety for a long time. This "epidemic" is just a part of life in the majority of the rest of the world man.

 

If we make more laws the result will be that more laws will be broken.

You are wrong in placing blame on everything but the man that committed the horrible crime. 100% of the blame belongs on him and his actions. 

Education of gun owners. I place blame of the entire Sandy Hook tragedy on the parents of the attacker. If people like her had an awareness of her son's sickness and the guns were kept away from him (as in locked up, secured), I believe this would have been avoided.

He obviously had access to the guns even though he had issues. Was she oblivious to what was happening in Colorado and other parts of the country were mentally sick people went on shooting rampages? Did she not seek medical assistance? From what I understand she was getting a fist full of dollars from her rich ex-husband. WTF?

The problem will continue to exist until society realizes the problem is the actual guns but the people who have access to them. It isn't just the criminals either. You have people trading stolen guns. Dealers finding loopholes in the laws. Gun manufactures who look at the bottom dollar rather than the poison they are selling.

 


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

 

Education of gun owners. I place blame of the entire Sandy Hook tragedy on the parents of the attacker. If people like her had an awareness of her son's sickness and the guns were kept away from him (as in locked up, secured), I believe this would have been avoided.

He obviously had access to the guns even though he had issues. Was she oblivious to what was happening in Colorado and other parts of the country were mentally sick people went on shooting rampages? Did she not seek medical assistance? From what I understand she was getting a fist full of dollars from her rich ex-husband. WTF?

The problem will continue to exist until society realizes the problem is the actual guns but the people who have access to them. It isn't just the criminals either. You have people trading stolen guns. Dealers finding loopholes in the laws. Gun manufactures who look at the bottom dollar rather than the poison they are selling.

 

I think that schools should have mandated screenings for mental illness, since parents are obviously dropping the ball. But sometimes when people are mentally sick they really don't want to admit it. 

 

Parents of sick children can sometimes be just as sick if not more so, and may be in denial about the child's mental illness. 

 

There are a lot of things that factor in to a tragedy of this or that magnitude actually happening. The ugly reality is that these things are going to happen. We can do our best to prevent such things and I think that we should. As I said before, the illusion of safety in the US is being smashed.


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Mintyfell wrote:I think that

Mintyfell wrote:

I think that schools should have mandated screenings for mental illness, since parents are obviously dropping the ball. But sometimes when people are mentally sick they really don't want to admit it. 

 

Parents of sick children can sometimes be just as sick if not more so, and may be in denial about the child's mental illness. 

 

There are a lot of things that factor in to a tragedy of this or that magnitude actually happening. The ugly reality is that these things are going to happen. We can do our best to prevent such things and I think that we should. As I said before, the illusion of safety in the US is being smashed.

 

As a parent of children with disabilities, I can tell you that getting help for your child is difficult - to put it mildly.  Even a child diagnosed with recognized non-threatening physical problems is hard to find help for.  If you have a child with a mental illness, the specialists to treat same are few and far between.  In part, because it is hard to get the right diagnoses. 

I had a friend whose son became mentally ill as a teen.  He was fine until about age 14.  Then he wasn't fine.  He had many different diagnoses and it was next to impossible to treat him.  A teenage boy has options - he is big, he is strong, and he doesn't have to do what mom and dad say anymore.  "Fuck you!" and out the door.  My friend did everything she could - she had a good job and good health insurance.  She cared for and loved him, and worked to do the best she could for him.  But she could not hold him down and force him to take his medication. 

I remember when mental institutions were largely disbanded.  I know about the abuses that occurred.  I also have seen the results of not having a place where you can put someone who is a danger to themself or society - except jail.  This is no answer, either.

 

 

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cj wrote: As a parent of

cj wrote:

 

As a parent of children with disabilities, I can tell you that getting help for your child is difficult - to put it mildly.  Even a child diagnosed with recognized non-threatening physical problems is hard to find help for.  If you have a child with a mental illness, the specialists to treat same are few and far between.  In part, because it is hard to get the right diagnoses. 

I had a friend whose son became mentally ill as a teen.  He was fine until about age 14.  Then he wasn't fine.  He had many different diagnoses and it was next to impossible to treat him.  A teenage boy has options - he is big, he is strong, and he doesn't have to do what mom and dad say anymore.  "Fuck you!" and out the door.  My friend did everything she could - she had a good job and good health insurance.  She cared for and loved him, and worked to do the best she could for him.  But she could not hold him down and force him to take his medication. 

I remember when mental institutions were largely disbanded.  I know about the abuses that occurred.  I also have seen the results of not having a place where you can put someone who is a danger to themself or society - except jail.  This is no answer, either.

 

I would agree. All too often, I have seen people voice the opinion that parents should be held liable for children's behavior.

I have a niece who suffers from severe depression and often cuts herself to feel better, she also is bulimic and has a number of other problems. 

My sister has tried everything from therapists to priests to phony counselors to try and help her. She too, has received several different treatments and diagnoses from doctors, and it has proved to be quite difficult. Help is not always available and some of these counselors and especially church people, have given her the worst advice that I have ever seen. For instance, one person actually had the nerve to tell her that maybe sharp objects should be confiscated from her if she was too immature to handle it. (Real story, good thing I wasn't present to hear that).

I had a real difficult time coping with indoctrinated religion and my own personal insecurities as a teen. I can only imagine what could have occurred had there been a mental illness or disability attached to it. Especially with all of the assholes out there that simply draw a check as counselors and shuffle troubled teens and children along to the next round of therapists when they grow tired of it.

The healthcare system needs a major overhaul.

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Brian37 wrote:I am sick of

Brian37 wrote:

I am sick of the same old bullshit. 4 Firefighters were shot by a gunman and 2 of them died. I'm sorry, they were assaulted by water balloons.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/30673 ... house-fire

 

 

Funny how when I posted a story about a little girl who saved her life shooting an intruder you accused me of appealing solely to emotion. An accusation I freely admit was correct. So what exactly are you doing here?

 

Also, if you do a little research you will discover the gunman was a felon and it was illegal for him to possess the guns he had. Obviously, the gun laws didn't stop him. 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/webster-killer-warned-kill-article-1.1229383

Quote:

William Spengler told a parole board he had murdered his grandmother and might be capable of violence again. Twenty years later the ex-con killed two firefighters and set a massive blaze that destroyed several homes on Christmas Eve.

How about this for an idea? When a fucking nut murders someone, confesses to it and says "I will probably kill again" how about if we just leave him in jail? Or just give him an express ticket to Old Sparky, I'm not picky.

Is the problem the gun or the murderer who said he would murder again but was let out anyway? 

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True fact

Back in 1992 maybe 1993 there was a one year exercise in collecting detailed murder info for the US. Some how as part of it I was able to find the statistics for murders and the weapons going back to the 1920s or so. I found the following.

Long term the annual number of murders was more or less a constant fraction of the population, that is, the number per million was not changing. Over the same period the murder weapon of choice changed from the majority being by blunt object (club, baseball bat, chair) to gun.

The popularity of the gun over clubs did not increase the number of murders they only became more common as the method of murder. Any change in the total number of murders was explained by the increased population of the US. So yes the number of murders did double from 1945 to 1990 but so did the population.

It implies banning guns of all types, making them all disappear tomorrow, would only cause people to revert to clubs with no change in the murder rate.

As the popular Al Franken quote goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own facts.

But it would prevent things like Columbine and Sandy Hook right? Darth Vader used a sword to kill off the young Jedis in training.

 

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Back in

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Back in 1992 maybe 1993 there was a one year exercise in collecting detailed murder info for the US. Some how as part of it I was able to find the statistics for murders and the weapons going back to the 1920s or so. I found the following.

Long term the annual number of murders was more or less a constant fraction of the population, that is, the number per million was not changing. Over the same period the murder weapon of choice changed from the majority being by blunt object (club, baseball bat, chair) to gun.

The popularity of the gun over clubs did not increase the number of murders they only became more common as the method of murder. Any change in the total number of murders was explained by the increased population of the US. So yes the number of murders did double from 1945 to 1990 but so did the population.

It implies banning guns of all types, making them all disappear tomorrow, would only cause people to revert to clubs with no change in the murder rate.

As the popular Al Franken quote goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own facts.

But it would prevent things like Columbine and Sandy Hook right? Darth Vader used a sword to kill off the young Jedis in training.

 

this story might reference a study, but unless you can produce the study (or at least give us specifics like title, publication info, etc.), i'm afraid it's still anecdotal.

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iwbiek wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

iwbiek wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Back in 1992 maybe 1993 there was a one year exercise in collecting detailed murder info for the US. Some how as part of it I was able to find the statistics for murders and the weapons going back to the 1920s or so. I found the following.

Long term the annual number of murders was more or less a constant fraction of the population, that is, the number per million was not changing. Over the same period the murder weapon of choice changed from the majority being by blunt object (club, baseball bat, chair) to gun.

The popularity of the gun over clubs did not increase the number of murders they only became more common as the method of murder. Any change in the total number of murders was explained by the increased population of the US. So yes the number of murders did double from 1945 to 1990 but so did the population.

It implies banning guns of all types, making them all disappear tomorrow, would only cause people to revert to clubs with no change in the murder rate.

As the popular Al Franken quote goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own facts.

But it would prevent things like Columbine and Sandy Hook right? Darth Vader used a sword to kill off the young Jedis in training.

 

this story might reference a study, but unless you can produce the study (or at least give us specifics like title, publication info, etc.), i'm afraid it's still anecdotal.

The murder rate in the US has oscillated significantly over its history and was particularly high in the 1920's and 1930's. It was the late 1930's, early 1940's when murder rates dropped substantially. It remained low in the 1950's and early 1960's and then started rising again. The lowest homicide rate we have since modern records was 4.6 per 100,000 in 1963. In 2011 we got close with 4.8. The highest in modern times was 10.2 in 1980 so over the last 30 years our murder rate has been cut in half (most of the drop occurred from 1990-2010). So the murder rate did increase as measured per capita comparing 1945 to 1990 (a low point compared to a high point) but it also has gone back down and is currently below 1945 levels.

Randall Roth probably has the most complete research on historical murder levels and his book "American Homicide" is worth a read for anyone interested in the subject. It is very dry and statistical. I think some of his conclusions are a stretch but the data is accurate and well presented. 

http://www.amazon.com/American-Homicide-ebook/dp/B003N64400/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1357047570&sr=8-2

Some of his raw data is available here http://cjrc.osu.edu/researchprojects/hvd/AHSV/tables/AHSV%20American%20Homicides%205-2010.pdf 

It is interesting to note that the homicide rate in Virginia, the home state of the author of the 2nd Amendment had an estimated murder rate of 8.4 per 100,000 prior to 1776 much higher than it is today. Yet still, with such a high murder rate those crazy NRA types supported more guns on the streets. Of course, calculating murder rates from that time period is extremely difficult because there were not even death records. The murder rate may have been quite a bit higher.  

For a more thorough examination of modern homicide rates I would recommend taking a look at a report done by Cooper & Smith using BJS numbers from 1980-2008. http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2221 

It doesn't take long to notice that certain demographics have extremely high murder rates that skew the overall numbers. Most notably, black males between the ages of 18-24 of which reached a peak in 1993 at a staggering 365 per 100,000 were offenders with similarly high numbers as victims. As of 2008 that number has dropped to 175.8 for that demographic however it still remains extremely high compared to white males in the same age group at 20.4. 

The demographic information makes it very obvious which groups are committing murders and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that there might be some underlying issues which leads those groups to commit a disproportionate number of murders. Poverty, drugs, gangs and culture all are part of it. If we find ways to solve those problems it is likely that we will reduce the murder rate as well. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:I am sick of

Brian37 wrote:

I am sick of the same old bullshit. 4 Firefighters were shot by a gunman and 2 of them died. I'm sorry, they were assaulted by water balloons.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/30673 ... house-fire

 

You could not be more right!! The NRA need to either be jailed or thrown in the nuthouse! According to their twisted logic everything is at fault BUT the gun! In reality the gun is more at fault than anything else!

Fareed Zakaria on his GPS show on CNN gave the real reason! He listed nations all over the world with rates of mental illness just as high or ever higher than America yet their gun deaths are less than 1% of ours! Why? It's easy access to guns! Even a Harvard Public Health study showed nations with more guns have more gun deaths! The proliferation of guns IS the problem and any dummy can see that! Even Bill O'Reilly on Fox News said it's too easy to get a gun!

More guns=More gun deaths and it CANNOT be denied!

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