Police in NY return fire and get their man ....and manage to shoot a lot of bystanders for good measure.

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Police in NY return fire and get their man ....and manage to shoot a lot of bystanders for good measure.

   Incompetent NY cops will probably receive prosecutorial immunity simply because they're cops.  I can just hear their defense attorney saying of their victims "They're not innocent bystanders, they're collateral damage."

 

  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57499732/multiple-people-shot-near-empire-state-building/


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ThunderJones wrote:Vastet

ThunderJones wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Why would you want to defend someone elses beliefs in the first place? Also, you asked. If you don't like the answer, it's not my problem.

You misunderstand. The point is I was under the impression we were talking about our beliefs, and so your post confused me since it didn't seem related to the discussion (since none of us had endorsed it).

Apologies, I was extremely tired and probably shouldn't have been posting. I'd spent the day at the hospital with my friend, who if anyone cares is doing much better after brain surgery (which will stun EXC, who thinks all Canadians have to cross the border for anything more complicated than a cold).

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:ThunderJones

Vastet wrote:
ThunderJones wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Why would you want to defend someone elses beliefs in the first place? Also, you asked. If you don't like the answer, it's not my problem.

You misunderstand. The point is I was under the impression we were talking about our beliefs, and so your post confused me since it didn't seem related to the discussion (since none of us had endorsed it).

Apologies, I was extremely tired and probably shouldn't have been posting. I'd spent the day at the hospital with my friend, who if anyone cares is doing much better after brain surgery (which will stun EXC, who thinks all Canadians have to cross the border for anything more complicated than a cold).

I'm happy to hear your friend is doing better.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


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Vastet wrote:ThunderJones

Vastet wrote:
ThunderJones wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Why would you want to defend someone elses beliefs in the first place? Also, you asked. If you don't like the answer, it's not my problem.

You misunderstand. The point is I was under the impression we were talking about our beliefs, and so your post confused me since it didn't seem related to the discussion (since none of us had endorsed it).

Apologies, I was extremely tired and probably shouldn't have been posting. I'd spent the day at the hospital with my friend, who if anyone cares is doing much better after brain surgery (which will stun EXC, who thinks all Canadians have to cross the border for anything more complicated than a cold).

 

I care.  Virtual hugs for you and your friend.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Cj how sweet .. that is very sweet of U

 Cj  How sweet. I was wondering to myself how Vastet was holding up. All of kindest wishes are with you Vastet, that's outside of any debate with what you said about the ICU.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:What

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

What is even more pathetic is that during the commission of a violent crime and you are able to successfully contact the police but by the time they actually arrive you are already dead.   

Like Deanna Cook in Dallas did.  On August 17'th she dialed 911 when her ex-boyfriend came to her home to attack her. The police took over 40 minutes to arrive and by then she was already dead.  

   

                If relying upon the police is your only chosen alternative then I guess you'd better hope you get better police response times than this young lady did.

 

I don't have ex-boyfriends hanging around and I learned a long time ago to avoid the ones who are bat shit crazy.  Yes, you can tell if you know what to look for.

Yes, it can take the police a long time to get to your house.  Yell fire, instead.  You get better response time from everyone.  Psych studies show yelling fire will get more attention than yelling help.  Works when you call 911 as well, though you may have some legal muck later.  Doesn't matter if it saves your life.

 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

cj wrote:
And before anyone jumps on the bandwagon - yes, I have had weapons in my house in the past.  Yes, I have gone target shooting and hunting in the past.  No, I am not particularly squeamish about handling them or shooting someone else under the right conditions

 

 

   What "right" conditions would those be ?  You just stated in your last post that carrying a gun...

cj wrote:
I don't see how carrying a weapon makes you safer at all.

or even keeping one at home...

cj wrote:
How does having one in the house make you safer ?
  for protection is ineffective.  

 

      You're sending out mixed messages.

 

Yeah, I know.  And I don't want to explain it particularly.  It was long ago in a land far away.  Sorry.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Beyond Saving wrote:Although

Beyond Saving wrote:
Although if other states classes are as much fluff as Ohio's class was, well required classes don't give me a lot of confidence in a person's ability to use the weapon in a high stakes situation. Government classes are simply crap whether it is driving, insurance licensing or concealed carry. 

 

I was actually thinking of the classes I read about for police officers.  You are put in situations that are designed to raise your heartbeat.  From what I read, you need to practice to be able to think clearly while your adrenaline is up.  Unless you have the ability, you will likely make poor choices and have worse aim.  It's too late and I'm too lazy to look it up.  But I will tomorrow if you really want.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

The point of carrying is to have your weapon accessible. There are several carrying methods which allow for complete concealment and quick access to your weapon. The only time I may not have time to draw and fire my weapon is if the attacker already has a gun pointed at me, at which point he better be willing to pull the trigger, because his time is extremely limited. With practice (and you should practice your draw a lot) most people can learn to draw and fire their weapon in about 3 seconds. If you are a gun nut and practice a lot you should be able to get it to under 2 seconds.

 

That just isn't always possible.  Think of the shooting at Fairchild Airforce Base Hospital in Spokane, WA.  If you are incapacitated and someone starts shooting, it doesn't matter how fast you can pull the pistol out of the holster when you are well.  It doesn't matter to me anyway since my prejudice is to not carry.  And I would just as soon there weren't a lot of vigilante types around me who do carry.  I just don't trust you - or the police - to save my ass.  I'll do my best for myself in my own way.  Thank you.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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cj wrote:  I just don't

cj wrote:
  I just don't trust you - or the police - to save my ass.  I'll do my best for myself in my own way. 


 

  

                                                          My thoughts, exactly.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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cj wrote:I was actually

cj wrote:

I was actually thinking of the classes I read about for police officers.  You are put in situations that are designed to raise your heartbeat.  From what I read, you need to practice to be able to think clearly while your adrenaline is up.  Unless you have the ability, you will likely make poor choices and have worse aim.  It's too late and I'm too lazy to look it up.  But I will tomorrow if you really want.

I am familiar with them and similar classes are available to the public. As I said, I wouldn't be completely opposed to requiring stricter training to carry in public, I am well aware of the lack of quality in current requirements for both civilians and police. I would be opposed to such training being a condition to purchase a firearm.

 

 

cj wrote:
 

That just isn't always possible.  Think of the shooting at Fairchild Airforce Base Hospital in Spokane, WA.  If you are incapacitated and someone starts shooting, it doesn't matter how fast you can pull the pistol out of the holster when you are well. 

Nothing is always possible, so what. If you are armed you have a chance to shoot the attacker, if you are unarmed you have virtually none unless you are close enough to go Bruce Lee on him. 

 

cj wrote:
 

I just don't trust you - or the police - to save my ass.  

I don't expect you to trust me or the police, your protection is ultimately up to you. 

 

cj wrote:

And I would just as soon there weren't a lot of vigilante types around me who do carry.

You probably walk right by them every day and don't even know they are carrying. No doubt if they ever had to actually draw their gun near you, you would be quite thankful. 

 

cj wrote:
 

I'll do my best for myself in my own way.  Thank you.

I wouldn't dream of forcing you to do anything else. All I ask is that others be allowed to protect themselves their own way, which I think is reasonable enough. 

 

http://www.gao.gov/assets/600/592552.pdf

For relevance to the discussion I found some GAO numbers of the number of permits issued in each state that calculates the percentage of the above 20 population that has a concealed carry permit in each state. (Appendix V)

It turns out the most heavily armed state is Utah with 19.3% of the population having carry permits (don't mug anyone in Utah!). I shall await the news story of a massive crossfire happening in Utah. In Oregon, 5.1% of the population above 20 has a permit. Texas is rather disappointing given their reputation with only 3.0% and Ohio rings in at 3.2% (a little higher than I wrote earlier because I calculated based on the entire population rather than only those over 20). The only other states that get into the double digits are Georgia 11.5%, Iowa 10.9% and South Dakota 10.6%.

Of the states we have talked about recently, Colorado it is 2.5% and New York it is 0%. 

The data for Utah and Iowa does include permits issued to non-residents, I'm not sure how many people traveling to either state feel a need to apply for a permit since both have really low crime rates, but I can't tell how much of an effect that has on the number.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Vastet wrote:Apologies, I

Vastet wrote:
Apologies, I was extremely tired and probably shouldn't have been posting. I'd spent the day at the hospital with my friend, who if anyone cares is doing much better after brain surgery (which will stun EXC, who thinks all Canadians have to cross the border for anything more complicated than a cold).

Good to hear that your friend is doing better. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Vastet wrote: Apologies, I

Vastet wrote:
Apologies, I was extremely tired and probably shouldn't have been posting. I'd spent the day at the hospital with my friend, who if anyone cares is doing much better after brain surgery (which will stun EXC, who thinks all Canadians have to cross the border for anything more complicated than a cold).

Glad to hear that your friend is doing better.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote: Glad

harleysportster wrote:

 

Glad to hear that your friend is doing better.

 

                                                                        Ditto.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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Thank you very much

Thank you very much everyone, it means a lot to me.

I saw him the night after and he was in & out of consciousness, understandably, but he instantly recognised me and said a few things that made it obvious he was still him, which was a big relief. Over the next two days his progress was incredible. He could stand with only a little help, was eating ravenously and chatting away. It'll be awhile yet before he's in tip top shape, but everyone is encouraged at his progress.
All this after having two cysts growing on a tumour removed which were destroying his vision and causing him headaches the doctors say he shouldn't have been able to withstand anywhere near as well as he appeared to.

I love you guys. We can be venomous to each other when we disagree, but I'd stand with any of you as you stood with me.

Apologies for the derailing.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:.... I love you

Vastet wrote:
.... I love you guys. We can be venomous to each other when we disagree, but I'd stand with any of you as you stood with me.

 

                                                    

 

                                                                         Fighters not haters.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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Brit thinks.. With all

Brit thinks..

 With all these accidental shootings happening over there I'm pretty surprised so many right-wing Yanks don't want free healthcare to take the bullets out of them and patch up the holes..

 

Just sayin'


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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Brit thinks..

 With all these accidental shootings happening over there I'm pretty surprised so many right-wing Yanks don't want free healthcare to take the bullets out of them and patch up the holes..

 

Just sayin'

Speaking of which, I have never got a chance to ask anyone from England this. But is it true that firearms are next to non-existent over there and that crime is pretty high ? I hear a lot of pro-gun owners use that argument, but have never heard anyone FROM England comment on this.

I know that most of the British movies that I have seen, seem to have an awful lot of bare-knuckle fighting in them, almost like fist fighting would be a bit higher over there than here. Although I guess that depends on who you run around with and who you hang around with.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 it really depends how you

 it really depends how you quantify crime.  Violent crime is relatively high compared to some other european countries,  but gun crime is extremely low here.  If someone is shot and killed,  it would probably make the national press. 

 Under some circumstances it is legal to own a gun (my father had several shotguns)  if you have a valid license.  Police generally don't carry firearms although we do have some specialist response teams that do.  Personally i prefer living in a society that doesn't have many things that can kill you from a distance.  ImI'm not sure how the uk's gun laws can be used as a pro gun example.  Happy to answer any other questions you may have,  if i can! 

 


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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

 I'm not sure how the uk's gun laws can be used as a pro gun example. 

 Happy to answer any other questions you may have,  if i can! 

 

A lot of pro-gun political lobbies will state that England has an almost non-existent rate of gun owners, yet has a higher crime rate than most countries. Implying less guns = more crime. I have not heard that argument in a long time, but I remember when the NRA type groups were throwing that around quite a bit.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

 I'm not sure how the uk's gun laws can be used as a pro gun example. 

 Happy to answer any other questions you may have,  if i can! 

 

A lot of pro-gun political lobbies will state that England has an almost non-existent rate of gun owners, yet has a higher crime rate than most countries. Implying less guns = more crime. I have not heard that argument in a long time, but I remember when the NRA type groups were throwing that around quite a bit.

 

They used to throw around Switzerland as an example as well.  "Look!  Everyone has a gun and the crime rate is so low!"  Well, yeah.  Your weapon is issued by the state army, your ammunition is issued by the state army, you have to account for your brass, and you are a member of the state militia - no options.  I could live with gun laws like that and I'd be willing to bet the crime rate involving weapons would drop tremendously - but I believe only a very, very few Americans would go for it.

My main issue with guns is how easy it is to kill lots of people very quickly.  Killing and crime will continue to happen no matter what the gun laws are because people are people. 

And please don't go on about how you could kill lots of people by running them over, or bombs, or .... I know that.  Reducing the options of someone with a mental problem seems to me to be not a bad thing.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.