Why Jesus is Lord
Offline Historical Textual Evidence for Jesus’ Existence
There are over 42 sources within 150 years after Jesus’ death which mention his existence and record many events of his life.
- 9 Traditional New Testament Authors
- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Author of Hebrews, James, Peter, and Jude.
- Clement of Rome, 2 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum.
- Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, and Treatise on Resurrection.
- Josephus (Jewish historian), Tacitus (Roman historian), Pliny the Younger (Roman politician), Phlegon (freed slave who wrote histories), Lucian (Greek satirist), Celsus (Roman philosopher), Mara Bar Serapion (prisoner awaiting execution), Suetonius, and Thallus.
Historical Textual Evidence for Tiberius Caesar’s Existence
Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor who reigned during Jesus’ ministry, has 10 authors who mention his existence within 150 years of his life. These include: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Valerius Maximum, and Luke. If one removes Luke, since he is a New Testament source, there are 9 secular non-Christian sources. This means that there are just as many non-Christian sources for Jesus’ existence as there are for Tiberius Caesar’s! And, to compare, the total number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar are 42:10. Therefore, there are over four times as many sources for Jesus’ life and deeds than for Tiberius Caesar’s.
If one is going to doubt the existence of Jesus, one must also reject the existence of Tiberius Caesar.
Equally as intellectually impaired are those that claim Christianity is based on pagan mythology.
First of all, Christianity does not need any outside influence to derive any of its doctrines. All the doctrines of Christianity exists in the Old Testament where we can see the prophetic teachings of Jesus as the son of God (Zech. 12:10), born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), was crucified (Psalm 22), the blood atonement (Lev. 17:11), rose from the dead (Psalm 16:10), and salvation by faith (Hab. 2:4). Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses (or directed by eyewitnesses as were Mark and Luke) who accurately represented the life of Christ. So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection. In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabrication or borrowing.
There will undoubtedly be similarities in religious themes given the agrarian culture. Remember, an agriculturally based society, as was the people of the ancient Mediterranean area, will undoubtedly develop theological themes based upon observable events, i.e., the life, death, and seeming resurrection of life found in crops, in cattle, and in human life. It would only be natural for similar themes to unfold since they are observed in nature and since people created gods related to nature. But, any reading of the Old Testament results in observing the intrusion of God into Jewish history as is recorded in miracles and prophetic utterances. Add to that the incredible archaeological evidence verifying Old Testament cities and events and you have a document based on historical fact instead of mythical fabrication. Furthermore, it is from these Old Testament writings that the New Testament themes were developed.
Following is a chart demonstrating some of the New Testament themes found in the Old Testament.
| Theme | Old Testament Reference | New Testament fulfilled in Jesus |
| Ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God | Ps. 110:1 | Matt 26:64; Acts 7:55-60; Eph. 1:20 |
| Atonement by blood | Lev. 17:11 | Heb. 9:22 |
| Begotten Son, Jesus is | Psalm 2:7 | Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5 |
| Crucifixion | Psalm 22:11-18; Zech. 12:10 | Luke 23:33-38 |
| Eternal Son | Micah 5:1-2; Psalm 2:7 | Heb. 1:5; 5:5 |
| God among His people | Isaiah 9:6; 40:3 | John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Matt. 3:3 |
| Incarnation of God | 1)Ex 3:14; 2)Ps. 45:6 Isaiah 9:6; Zech. 12:10 | 1)John 8:58; 1:1,14; 2)Heb. 1:8; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:1-3 |
| Only Begotten Son | Gen. 22:2. See Typology | John 3:16; Heb. 11:7 |
| Resurrection of Christ | Psalm 16:9-10; 49:15; Is. 26:19 | John 2:19-21 |
| Return of Christ | Zech. 14:1-5; Mic. 1:3-4 | Matt. 16:27-28; Acts 1:11; 3:20 |
| Sin offering | Ex. 30:10; Lev. 4:3 | Rom. 8:3; Heb. 10:18; 13:11 |
| Son of God | Psalm 2:7 | John 5:18 |
| Substitutionary Atonement | Isaiah 53:6-12; Lev. 6:4-10,21 | Matt. 20:28; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18; |
| Virgin Birth | Isaiah 7:14 | Matt. 1:25 |
As you can see, there is no need for any of the Christian writers to borrow from anything other than the Old Testament source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and therefore Christianity borrowed from them is true, then it must also be truth that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion because it is older than they are! Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the Old Testament and the Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish ideas found in the Old Testament. Think about it, the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.
Furthermore, those who wrote about Jesus in the New Testament were Jews (or under the instruction of Jews) who were devoted to the legitimacy and inspiration of the Old Testament scriptures and possessed a strong disdain for pagan religions. It would have been blasphemous for them to incorporate pagan sources into what they saw as the fulfillment of the sacred Old Testament scriptures concerning the Messiah. Also, since they were writing about Jesus, they were writing based upon what He taught: truth, love, honesty, integrity, etc. Why then would they lie and make up stories and suffer great persecution, hardships, ridicule, arrest, beatings, and death all for known lies and fabrications from paganism? It doesn't make sense.
The alleged pagan parallels to Jesus’ resurrection are (1) unclear, (2) have late testimony that postdates Christianity, (3) may not be referring to an actual resurrection, (4) lack historical evidence, (5) misunderstand the Jewish influence on early Christianity, and (6) fail to explain the positive evidence for Jesus’ resurrection.
Unclear Parallels
The first problem is that the accounts of dying and rising gods in other religions are unclear. Justin Martyr, an early Christian apologist, records some of these "parallels" in an attempt to convince the Roman emperor that the Christian's teachings were not that dissimilar from other Roman religions which were favored by the empire. Justin appealed to various examples, including Aesculapius who was struck by lightning and ascended to heaven, Baccus and Hercules and a few other sons who rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus after having died violent deaths, Ariadne who was “set among the stars,” and finally the cremation of the emperor Augustus in which someone claimed that he saw Augustus’s spirit ascend towards heaven.3 However, Justin’s parallels are extremely unclear. As Habermas and Licona note, “If we were to consider these as parallels to Jesus’ resurrection, we would also have to consider every ghost story."
Late Testimony: After Christianity
Second, the first clear dying and rising god parallel to the resurrection story of Jesus occurs at least 100 years after the reports of Jesus’ resurrection. For example, the earliest versions of the death and resurrection of Adonis appeared after A.D. 150. The accounts of Attis, the Phyrgian god of vegetation who was responsible for the death and rebirth of plant life, are not until the 3rd century A.D. (200 A.D.) or later. Therefore, the Christians did not follow a genre of “dying and rising gods” since such parallels did not exist during their time period.
Questionable if Referring to a Resurrection
Third, it is questionable if the pre-Jesus pagan resurrection accounts are actually referring to a resurrection. In the accounts of Marduk there is no clear death or resurrection mentioned. Adonis, in the earliest visions, contains no death or resurrection reports. His first death and resurrection accounts do not occur until after A.D. 150. Osiris has conflicting accounts. Some accounts say that he is assigned to the underworld and others refer to him as the “sun.” However, there are no accounts or claims that Osiris rose from the dead.
The only account of a god who survived death that predates Christianity is found in Osiris. However, as mentioned above, there are several versions of his story. In one, he is killed by his brother, cut into fourteen pieces, and scattered in Egypt. The goddess Isis then collects his parts and bring him back to life, but she was only able to find thirteen parts. Furthermore, it is questionable whether Osiris was brought back to life on earth or seen by others like Jesus. Osiris descends and was given status of the underworld as god of the mummies. Interestingly, it is more of a zombification rather than a resurrection! Finally, the hero in the story is not Osiris, but Isis or Horus, their son. This is extremely different from Jesus who is the heroic risen prince of life who was seen by others on earth before his ascension into heaven (Acts 1:1-11).
Lack of Historical Evidence
Fourth, the accounts of dying and rising gods in other religions lack historical evidence, and can be accounted for by opposing theories such as legendary embellishment or lack of historicity. Interestingly, these dying and rising vegetation gods like Osiris and Adonis are not real people in history like Jesus (see: Did Jesus ever exist?). Furthermore, they are not attested by multiple sources, and the first available manuscript is far removed from the event that is described. For example, The Life of Apollonius by Philostratus, postdates Jesus by 200 years and is thought to be a “product of conscious reaction against Christianity.” Therefore, these pagan parallels are late and not around the time when eyewitnesses could be questioned.
Jewish not Pagan Ideas
Fifth, early Christianity was birthed in a Jewish cultural context. The early Christians, in fact, worshiped in the Jewish temple (i.e. Acts 2:46; 5:42) and believed that Christ's resurrection fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (1 Cor. 15:3-4). In light of this, these Jewish Christians believed in a physical resurrection which was a view that was not accepted by the Greco-Roman culture who ridiculed such an idea (Acts 17:31-32). Therefore, it is unlikely that these Jewish Christians would adopt pagan mythology.
Positive Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus
Sixth, and finally, the idea of the resurrection story being borrowed from pagan religions is unconvincing for several reasons since it does not explain the empty tomb, the early belief of the disciples in the resurrection of Jesus due to eyewitness testimony, the transformation of the disciples, the conversion of Paul, and the conversion of James.
First, the empty tomb of Jesus contains strong historical corroboration due to the unreasonableness of the disciples to preach an empty tomb in Jerusalem when the critics of Christianity could have just uncovered the tomb, the fact that early polemics between Christians and Jews presuppose the empty tomb, and finally, the fact that women who were not regarded highly by ancient society are the chief witnesses of the empty tomb! If the resurrection story of Jesus was borrowed from pagan mythology, then there would be no need for an empty tomb.
Second, we have extremely early testimony to the disciples’ belief that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to them. A pre-Pauline creed in 1 Cor. 15:3-8 has been dated by critical scholars to the early 30’s A.D. This does not allow enough time for legend to embellish the core story of the text. In fact, the events upon which the creed is based points right back to the early 30's, possibly only a year or even months from the resurrection event itself. This would indicate that there really is no significant gap in time for legendary embellishments to explain the disciple’s core belief in the resurrection.
The early nature of the resurrection appearance accounts points to at least one, and possibly multiple, eyewitness accounts. At least Paul in A.D. 55 mentions his own eyewitness resurrection account (1 Cor. 15:8). In fact, the atheistic historian Michael Martin states that Paul is the only eyewitness that we have of the resurrection. It is also quite possible that the 1 Cor. 15:3-8 creed also contains eyewitness material from the twelve, all of the apostles, Peter, James, 500, etc.
Third, the disciples were radically transformed from despairing doubters to persevering proclaimers of the gospel. Is it really realistic to think that a pagan resurrection story is going to inspire pious Jews to adopt pagan ideology, change their worship from Saturday to Sunday, radically alter their views about their Messiah, change from despair about their dead Messiah, and then be willing to die for their faith and start proclaiming this “gospel” with conviction to hostile monotheistic audiences?
Fourth, Paul converted to Christianity as a result of what he claims is an eyewitness appearance of the risen Jesus (1 Cor. 15:8), endured much persecution (2 Cor. 11:23-28; Phil. 1:21-23; Acts 14:19; 16:19-24), and was willing to die for his faith. Is it really reasonable to believe that he became a Christian due to adopting pagan mythology and would be willing to die for this belief? As an educated Pharisee, he would have seen through the unhistorical claims of the pagan mythological parallels.
Fifth, James, the brother of Jesus, was also converted to Christianity as a result of an appearance of the risen Jesus (1 Cor. 15:7) and was willing to die for his faith (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 20:200; Hegesippus in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History 2:23; and Clement of Alexandria in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History 2:1, 23). Before this appearance, he was a skeptic and did not believe that his brother was the Messiah (Mk. 3:21; Jn. 7:5). Like Paul, it is extremely improbable, that as a pious Jew, these pagan parallels would have motivated him to believe in Jesus and be willing to die for his faith.
Think about this, only one of the original disciples died of old age. Judas committed suicide immediately after betraying Jesus. All the rest were martyred. Slowly, painfully killed. All they had to do to prevent this was simple, renounce Jesus. Just say they were lying. Or even say that maybe they were mistaken, and all of the miracles they saw were illusions or tricks. But they didn't. Tell me this, what would it take for you to give your life in a slow, agonizing, torturous manner?
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
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I think it is practically a given that you will ignore and somewhat meticulously dodge any evidence that goes against your ridiculous claims.
You make a pretty good spin doctor for evangelicals, but don't quit your day job just yet.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Claiming that Jesus survived death is not the same as PROVING it is possible.
You want a "terminator" to that claim?
RIGOR MORTIS,
Go to any morgue in the world, put a camera on every dead bloated stiff body in the world. YOU WONT see it come back to life.
The scientifically inept writers of that bible HAD NO FUCKING CLUE about modern biology. And whatever hoax perpetrated by a con man, or con men, that convinced them to right such a bullshit claim, does not make "poof" logic evidence of anything but the fact that a bullshit claim was made and stuck in a book.
NO HUMAN HAS OR EVER WILL ESCAPE PERMANENT DEATH.
Once all the cells and organs die and decay, YOU STAY DEAD.
The death claim of Jesus in the bible is merely superstitious bullshit people wrote. It may have been based on some stage act like a Vagas illusionist making a jet disappear. But Jets don't magically disassemble their own atoms. Nor can a human body reverse permanent death.
The rational explanation was that it was merely a story written by people then who desperately wanted to have a super hero.
JUST LIKE THE Ancient Egyptians wanted so desperately to believe that the sun was a thinking deity. All those monuments and all those paintings and all those claims did not, nor ever will make the sun a deity, no matter how many people wanted it to be true.
It is not our fault someone believed that crap back then, or stuck those claims in that book. We know know what death is and all the stages of it on a scientific level. "God can do what he wants" is a bullshit claim. Otherwise he could also regrow a human head right now via "poof" if someone got their head blown off with a shotgun.
So the rational conclusion is people merely liked the idea of surviving death so they invented a super hero that could do that. I don't care how many people wanted that to be true, IT NEVER WAS TRUE AND WILL NEVER BE TRUE.
Stop living in the past. Your life wont end if you give up on an old myth.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Your "facts" have been refuted repeatedly. Your irrationality in closing your eyes, plugging your ears and screaming "Huh-uh!" isn't going to change that.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Fox News probably can find a place for you, you have already mastered the art of spinning.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
It's funny how people believe that when words are put down on paper that they must be facts. It's like magic. "SEE, it's written here!" I often wonder if these stories would never had made it past fire-side bedtime fairy tales told by the elders of the tribe, would they have gotten so out of hand.
Well it sounds like you have put a lot of effort into convincing yourself. Why don't you try this- write your own summary of the bible, read it back to yourself out-loud, and see how real it sounds to you then and get back to us. It doesn't take long. Just hit the key points and fantastic events. It goes like this:
God said abracadabra, a snake told Eve to eat the apple, Noah built a boat, Moses led the Jews, Jesus got himself hung up then he woke up and flew into the sky, and whoever believes it gets to magically go somewhere called heaven to live forever and those who don't go to hell. You can just sneak hell in there wherever you want cuz that's what the original story tellers did.
Or you can just paste more of other peoples crap here for us to laugh at.
"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia
Yep. I'm glad some one else has observed this...
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
Ok, I'll do it again. Make sure you have your eyes closed so you can say you didn't see this.
The empty tomb - As the gospels were written by Greeks who knew many resurrection myths and wanted to make their teacher Paul's "Jesus" a god, it isn't that hard to believe that Jesus would have a resurrection story.
Jesus post-mortem appearances - Again, the gods appearing to men after their "death" is a common element of the mythology that the Greek writers of the Gospels knew.
Origin of the disciples' belief - The members of the Jerusalem church led by James (those who walked with the man Jesus) loved and respected their teacher. The disciples of Paul believed anything Paul told them. The Jerusalem church were against the "Jesus as god" cult that Paul was building. See, Paul's mystery cult had nothing to do with what Jesus taught. Still doesn't.
You can open your eyes now.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I don't care to explain lies I don't understand the context of all that well...
...except it is abundantly obvious that they were an attempt to formulate feudal authority and grab power in the West.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Faith is a amazing lie. You can have your head so far up your ass that you can eat that burrito from yesterday and still say "if it's in the bible it must be real"
Ok, I'll do this again. Make sure you have your eyes closed, so when you are standing before God, you can say that He never gave you any evidence. The empty tomb: ignoring all the professional historians (skeptics and non-believers) I have quoted who say that any attempt to deny the historicity of the gospels is absurd, I'll simply ask, why don't you give an example of one of these "myths" that Jesus is based on. Just give us one, whose hero is killed, resurrected, then ascends to heaven. Appearances: He appeared to several hundred more than just the writers. What about them? Disciples belief: your claims about Paul have no substance. Regarding the others who didn't die of natural causes or commit suicide; so 10 perfectly sane adults allowed themselves to be tortured to death to keep a lie going? That's what you call rational? You know people that would do that? Better yet, 10 people, that would all submit to a torturous death to cover up a lie? Well my friend, you are in no danger of a career as a detective. Pet detective, maybe.
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
At least if I'm standing before God I'll finally get some fucking answers about "Creation Science" as opposed to all the "pure speculation" jackspence wasted our time with.
Yes, the media frequently refers to them as "cultists".
I doubt he'd give you the pleasure at that point. And show me where you found the definition of cult to be people who die for something they KNOW is a lie.
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
....you're quite right as he would have to actually exist in order to do that.
You remember those people who flew the commercial airliners into the World Trade Center towers ? How about the ones who blow themselves up so they can have 70 virgins in the afterlife ? You may not believe it but they do. To you getting 70 virgins in the afterlife is a lie, to them it's a truth worth DYING for.
One religion's lies are another ones truths. Up is down, left is right. In religion truth is whatever you want it to be.
1 Empty tomb not that hard, there was a person before jesus who supposedly was resurrected and had an empty tomb as well....John the baptist followers had claimed the empty tomb and resurrections before jesus, this is most likely why we have the empty tomb and resurrection myth of jesus, who's followers were also followers of John and may have had the same expectations of jesus because of it, as well of the persecution by the established powers, much like john being persecuted by Herod Antipas.
2 Post mortem appearances are probably due to the same reasons as mentioned above, i mean similar stories of 2 figured that have shared followers.
3 origin of their beliefs come from john the baptist as well....so yeah.....that explains that which is a far better explanation using the historical evidence.....which is far superior than your supernatural beliefs.
Are you really this slow? Maybe I can change the font or something. PLEASE LIST A RELIGION/CULT/ANYBODY OR THING THAT WILLINGLY DIED FOR WHAT THEY KNEW WAS A LIE.
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
Where do you get these claims about John?
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
Aum Shinrikyo, "The Supreme Truth".
Mark 6:14, 16 where herod says john has risen from the dead. The jesus seminar, wichh studies the historical jesus....you know that little bit you posted about the historical jesus.....john dominic crossan stated that there is evidence that john had a larger following than jesus. That's where I get it, from biblical scholars.
Once upon a time Scholars believed the Earth was the center of the Universe.
This included educated people such as Plato and Aristole and countless others.
Guess what? They were all wrong.
The empty tomb is a storytelling legend from the 1st century. The only supposed evidence is found in the book that is part of the beliefs.
The same goes for the supposed appearances of a dead man, a legend.
Since none of the Gospels were actually written by the disciples but all were penned by later believers years later, what the disciples actually believed is not known.
Their actual names, actions, and end are also steeped in legend and storytelling.
Yes, there was a guy named Paul, who never met Jesus.
There was a high priest named James the Just. Paul, mentions Peter.
The rest of it is written years later by followers elsewhere. In very good Greek, not Aramaic, the language of the disciples. Who likely could not read or write. See a few books by Bart Ehrman and others about the origin of the NT.
As I've discussed in another thread, I do consider there was a guy named Jesus who may have thought himself to be the mashiach. However, it did not work out.
He was executed as a criminal, a rebel or for crimes against Rome. As were many uncountable Jews.
End story.
The scholars you quote have no evidence that the supposed historical actions you claim actually happened, ie. rose from the dead, was seen cavorting about Palestine, or why a group of guys who are also legendary at least as far as actions and their personal beliefs did or did not do.
These scholars have nothing but conjecture and opinions, much like those who thought the Earth was the center of the Universe.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
But here's the point that you inexplicably fail to comprehend:
Everyone believes that they sacrificed themselves for truth. Of course that implies that no one claims to knowingly die for a lie. SO ?
As I said .......CULTISTS DO IT ALL THE TIME.
The Branch Davidians are a famous example. Or the People's Temple in Guyana. Their bizarre theology was the "truth", too. They believed it enough to DIE for it. Of course I'm sure you'll fail to see the significance, but that's not my problem.
It seems that this pet detective has slapped you stupid AGAIN as all you have done is re-iterate your claims without supporting them. Bring proof next time, OK?
See, none of these sources were written during the time of Jesus alleged death and resurrection so they have no standing to prove the empty tomb or the post mortem appearances. The TF of Josephus was added after Josephus wrote the original - not even Christian scholars dispute this. Maybe you should go find some.
As for examples of deities with myths like the ones behind Paul's Jesus - why don't we start with the ones that the Greeks who wrote the gospels knew? Mithra, Osiris and Dionysus come to mind. Remember, Paul and his converts were pagans trying to sell his god-idea to other pagans.
People die for beliefs all the time. I never said that the disciples knew that they were peddling a lie (The disciples were Jewish and peddling Jesus's Jewish teachings). As there was no proof that Paul was martyred (Ignatius is not proof), he was under no threat for peddling his lie. Indeed, the Romans found Christianity's willing submission to authority very useful.
Basically, the threat you started with (listen to you or God will get me) is the only weapon you have since you have no facts behind you.
The truth will set you free but you have to read it first. What you posted isn't truth and people here have shown you why repeatedly.
Will you Christian apologists ever bring anything new to the table? I'll wait until you find some Preparation H so you can get some relief from the people here shoving your "facts" back to their source.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Heros/humans that are killed, resurrected and ascend to the heavens
Adonis, Orsiris, Achilles, Aristeas (who dies, is put in a locked room, it is later found to be empty, appears some 240 years later and is said to have travelled with Apollo), and Eshmun are just some of the figures in literature/religious history who die, resurrect and are made in to deities or ascend into the heavens, the jesus story is not a unique store, it's a more popular one.
who where these witnesses you claim? Only Paul states it and doesn't state where it happened, or names anyone who saw him....so who are these hundreds of people? because that isn't a fact...it's a claim without evidence. Oh and Aristeas appears in Metapontum in southern italy to command that a statue of himself be made and a new altar for apollo to be set up.
People die for causes, ideology and religion all the time, happens throughout history time and time again, some are tortured and then killed as well, buddhist monks, muslims, even if it is found they are wrong in the end, it doesn't change the fact that they believed it to be true, jonestown, heavens gate cult all of those are mere examples of people strongly believing in something to be true even if the facts contradict that. but again you will ignore all of these statement and continue in your ignorance.
I IGNORE NOTHING. I am, howerver, outnumbered heavily on this site and involved in multiple threads, with only a finite time to respond to everyone.
Adonis- When he died she sprinkled the blood with nectar, from which sprang the short-lived anemone, which takes its name from the wind which so easily makes its petals fall. And so it is the blood of Adonis that each spring turns to red the torrential river, the Adonis River (also known as Abraham River or Nahr Ibrahim in Arabic) in modern Lebanon. Afqa is the sacred source where the waters of the river emerge from a huge grotto in a cliff 200 meters high. It is there that the myth of Astarte (Venus) and Adonis was born.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis
So he was killed by a pig, came back as a plant after some nectar was sprinkled on him, and turns rivers red in the spring. Yeah, that is exactly what Jesus did. PAY ATTENTION. DEATH, RESSURECTION, ASCENTION. That is what you CLAIM the parallels to be.
Osiris- Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 bce onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433922/Osiris
You're 0 for 2.
Achilles- Hector (the eldest son of King Priam of Troy) slew Patroclus, and Achilles, having finally reconciled with Agamemnon, obtained new armour from the god Hephaestus and slew Hector. After dragging Hector’s body behind his chariot, Achilles gave it to Priam at his earnest entreaty. The Iliad concludes with the funeral rites of Hector. It makes no mention of the death of Achilles, though the Odyssey mentions his funeral. The poet Arctinus in his Aethiopis took up the story of the Iliad and related that Achilles, having slain the Ethiopian king Memnon and the Amazon Penthesilea, was himself slain in battle by Priam’s son Paris, whose arrow was guided by Apollo.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/3581/Achilles
Not even close!!!
Aristeas- Aristeas, they said, who belonged to one of the noblest families in the island, had entered one day into a fuller's shop, when he suddenly dropt down dead. Hereupon the fuller shut up his shop, and went to tell Aristeas' kindred what had happened. The report of the death had just spread through the town, when a certain Cyzicenian, lately arrived from Artaca, contradicted the rumour, affirming thathe hadmetAristeas onhis road to Cyzicus, and had spoken with him. This man,therefore,strenuously denied the rumour; the relations, however, proceeded to the fuller's shop with all things necessary for the funeral, intending to carry the body away. But on the shop being opened, no Aristeas was found, either dead or alive. Seven years afterwards he reappeared, they told me, in Proconnesus, and wrote the poem called by the Greeks The Arimaspeia, after which he disappeared a second time. This is the tale current in the two cities above-mentioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristeas
What? Were you not aware that these myths aren't even close to the same claims, or did you deliberately try to decieve me?
Eshmun- Eshmun (or Eshmoun, less accurately Esmun or Esmoun) was a Phoenician god of healing and the tutelary god of Sidon.
This god was known at least from the Iron Age period at Sidon and was worshipped also in Tyre, Beirut, Cyprus, Sardinia, and in Carthage where the site of Eshmun's temple is now occupied by the chapel of Saint Louis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun
You have got to be kidding me! Why did you make me waste my time to look all that up? Wow! Regardless, this was pathetic. None of these are anything like the story of Jesus' life.
And I'm not ignoring any of your statements. You just are not comprehending my argument. That's why, to me, it appears that you are ignoring my questions.
So please clarify: you arent saying the disciples were liars. Are you saying they really thought Jesus was God's son?
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
No you ignore alot, for example Ehrman you state that he believes jesus existed, except you ignore the part in which he doesn't believe in any part of the mythology, the resurrection, jesus being god's son etc, etc etc. Most biblical scholars don't believe the mythological parts as being true.
PAY ATTENTION. DEATH, RESSURECTION, ASCENTION.
I am paying attention, greek mythology is different than christian mythology we can draw parallels to how they viewed it all, in greek mythology the gods interacted with humans alot and in many cases humans entered the realms of the gods or the undead such as Hades or mount Olympus. Adonis depending on which version of the mythology you take was killed by the tusks of a wild boar sent by one of the gods out of jealous or hatred, depends on the version and which god, then either she spread his blood on nectar or she begs zeus to bring him back, which he does on one condition he spends half the time in hades and the other half with her, hence the cylce of the seasons, in which in winter the plants die because he is in hades and in summer the plants come back to life because he is with aphrodite. Reseach you have done none. Here we have death, resurrection and rising to the heavens with the gods...or in this case Aphrodite. Is it exactly like jesus nope, but it is similar enough due to the fact that they are 2 different religions and have different takes on god/gods and how heaven and earth are viewed.
you can check that out here
http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/myth-aphrodite-adonis/
http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/mythology/names/adonis.htm
funny thing about myths, there tend to be various versions of how it happens. Same happens in the bible, same event, someone dies, what happens next varies depending on the author.
That is what you CLAIM the parallels to be. Osiris- Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 bce onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433922/Osiris You're 0 for 2.
No I am not 0-2 you just seem to want a very very specific thing yet asked for a general request, death, resurrection, ascension and when we do that, you state it's not the same, please stop moving the post make you look ignorant. Adonis above meets your criteria. As does Osiris, let me show you how.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis
The original form of the myth states that Osiris was killed by a wooden sarcophagus secretly being made to his measurements by Set, who was jealous of Osiris's position as king, and so plotted to kill him and take his place
It was then sealed with lead and thrown into the Nile river. Upon hearing that Osiris was gone, Isis set out to look for him. She was afraid that without proper ceremonies and burial Osiris would not be able to go to the place of the dead.
Seth, while hunting, found Osiris's coffin and dismembered him into 14 parts, scattering them across the land of Egypt.
Once again Isis set out to look for the pieces and she was able to find 13 of the 14 parts, with the help of Nephthys, Seth's sister-wife, but was unable to find the 14th, as it had been eaten by a fish. Instead, she fashioned a phallus out of gold and sang a song around Osiris until he came back to life.
Osiris was resurrected. He could have proper ceremonies and burial.
Due to this experience, Osiris became Lord of the Dead, and the Afterlife.
There you have it, death, resurrection and ascension to godhood or deity in his realm, now now I get it, it's not your version of heaven/afterlife it is however for the Egyptians and it meets all your criteria.
like all mythology there are various version and in one of them, his mother takes him from the funeral pryer to the island of leuke in the black sea where he lives. Technically not the same resurrection and ascension I agree however his mother is a deity. But again, death and resurrection is in various parts of ancient mythology.
what you left part of wiki part out of the 240 years later which he has been traveling with Apollo as a sacred raven....yup seems like you misssed that part, dead, resurrected and ascension with Apollo....yup again meets the criteria even if you like to ignore it, is it exactly the same as jesus story nope, but you never claimed it had to be, and no stories will be exactly like jesus, just like every resurrection and ascension story are not exactly they same, they are meant to convoy a lesson.
Fuck dood seriously for someone that claims to do some research you really really fucking suck at it big time, let me show your ignorance on Eshmun
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Eshmun
The myth of Eshmun was related by the 6th century AD Syrian philosopher Damascius and 9th century AD Patriarch of Constantinople Photius. They recount that, a young man from Beirut, was hunting in the woods when Astarte saw him and was stricken by his beauty. She harassed him with her amorous pursuit until he emasculated himself with an axe and died. The grieving goddess revived Eshmun and transported him to the heavens where she made him into a uranic god.[nb 2][3]
This meets all your criteria, death, resurrection and ascension to heaven.......what is your claim now? Oh that he wasn't a son of god? Now I get it you want, you want and exact story like jesus, but that was NEVER PART OF THE CRITERIA. What you are doing is called moving the goal post, you make a demand and when it is met you change it....so please feel free to change it however the death, resurrection and ascension story of jesus is NOT unique. It has been told before many many times.
I am comprehending your argument, what your not comprehending is that the idea of death, resurrection and ascension to the afterlife/heaven is not a unique story. I am not saying that they believed it to be lies, although exaggerations in the stories are there, as with any legend or mythology, it makes the story more grandiose and pushes a lesson in the story or pushes an agenda or religious ideology. In this case that jesus is the messiah who is rejected by most of the jews as the messiah. His disciples may have believed him being the messiah, doesn't mean they were right. Much like the followers in Jonestown or the followers of heavens gate, or the followers of Falun gong who are tortured/killed by the chinese officials, I mean just because they believe in it doesn't make it true, people are willing to be tortured and killed for their beliefs, at no point does it make those beliefs actually true. So what is your point about the disciples and being tortured or killed?