Again you are a fucking liar. But then one has to be a fucking liar to be a holocaust promoter or stupid or paid.

Another LIE. Again you are a fucking liar.

Another lie.

As you are demonstrating it involves you telling a constant stream of lies about me. Why must you lie? Cannot you deal with what I have said? Are you only capable of dealing with strawman fallacies? Rhetorical of course. It is unclear you could find your boyfriend's arsehole with both hands.

Your total failure to produce physical evidence of a population decrease over the war years is well established. Defending the indefensible is not going to get you into heaven. Nor is lying, bearing false witness. Continuing to demonstrate the absence of physical evidence of 6 million which I did observe is only going to get you points among fellow holohuggers.

This article is somewhat biased, but makes some good points:

http://www.historiography-project.org/misc/graf_jewishlosses.html

It also provides specific references and explains the methodologies used.

He presents no physical evidence of the claim. Simply there is still no physical evidence for the 6 million introduced in 1945.

IF you like his arguments and  for some strange reason are satisfied with arguments only then his arguments say there was no basis for the 6 million number introduced in 1945.

So there is neither evidence nor argument whicih supports the 6 million number at the time it was introduced/cast in concrete.

Either way what is your point? My statement is correct either way. 

* I accused you of saying all Israelis deserve to die based on this:

And additionally, on your contention in some other thread that there are no innocent Israelis as they are an occupying force. To me these comments clearly show you think Israeli occupiers can be fairly killed. I'm not sure why you are bothering to refute my assertion given it is based solely on what you say you believe. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I am justified in suggesting you believe all Israelis deserve to die. Perhaps 'deserve' is too pointed for you. How about all Israelis can be legally murdered?

* Next I suggest you must believe jews fabricated the holocaust.

Note the use of the world 'must' in my statement. The point here is pretty obvious. If there is no material evidence for the holocaust whatsoever, naught that would stand in a court of law, then there must be some motivation for millions of jewish folk around the world to believe it, to mourn it, to set up monuments in wretched little polish villages in the middle of nowhere, to have gone and got fake tattoos to try and prove their 'lies'. So what do you think their motivation is, Nony? I suggested you believe they are using the holocaust to leverage some advantage - sure, I suggested this was for world domination which I freely concede you have never stated - but regardless, you must believe they promote the holocaust for a reason. What is that reason?

Finally, I make the point you insist none of the evidence of the holocaust is legitimate and you call me a liar and wrap up your argument with this little gem: 

Thus sparing me from having to labour up-thread to find a quote in which you declare yet again that none of the evidence from the holocaust is legitimate. 

made in this thread http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/30998 where Nony and I are arguing about the same thing. Anyone wanting to go back to that thread for more of this debate, there's the link. I'm going to address the stuff Nony and I were arguing about in the Is Anti-Semitism Anti-Zionism thread in this location, too. It's essentially the same argument and it's pointless repeating it in all three places. 

Care to translate? Or does anything in German cause you to cry and hide under your covers? Do not forget to fill in the ...rest missed... or come up with a non-delusional rationale for it not mattering.

Which is why you pretend to a generic concern while so desperately trying to established some miraculous jewish number.

By what you have presented so far that number can be zero. If you do not care why are you so desperate to believe in a non-zero number? The only established massacre is still by the Allies.

You love fiction. No wonder you love holohuggery.

If in fact the evidence is overwhelming why is it you cannot produce any of it? Fiction is not evidence.

Now if you want to call ZERO dead a holocaust then I have to conclude you are just plain silly in addition to being stupid and a liar.

A fair amount of this stuff is just face-pulling from my opponent but clearly the salient issue Nony moors his ludic fallacy to are the World Almanac's estimates of war populations during war years based on what the Almanac itself says are pre-war figures which we can rightly assume did not take into account mass murders or war deaths. Nony insists these questionable figures are the only way by which we can test the key truths of the Holocaust and dismisses all other proofs - documents, testaments, bones, ashes, sites with corresponding features to testimony, as being fiction. I think his comments above establish this fact quite clearly. 

It seems the findings of bones and ash pits by a forensic archaeologist at the site of the Treblinka death camp can be completely ignored because as yet it has not been estimate of the number of dead people they belong too. The 500 mass graves across Ukraine replete with Mauser casings can also be ignored and all the while Nony harks back to that exact figure of 6 million dead. To me he is making a relentless continuum fallacy. The exact numbers of holocaust dead are unknown. Hilberg suggests 5.1 million. The respected German historian Wolfgang Benz says 5.3 to 6.2 million. Paradoxically Nony says that without individual bodies, genealogies and pathology reports he won't believe millions of people were burned to ashes. Those bodies found shot or starved to death he makes no comment on save for reverting to his pet continuum fallacy. 

Moving on, the Hofle Telegram above was addressed to Adolf Eichmann, the man who was charged by Obergruppenführer (General) Reinhard Heydrich with the task of facilitating and managing the logistics of mass deportation of Jews to ghettos and extermination camps in German-occupied Eastern Europe. I posted this because it shows the Germans clearly thought they were killing plenty of Jews at their polish death camps over the period to which it relates. It reads:

"12. OMX de OMQ 1000 89 ? ? State secret! To the Reich Security Main Office, for the attention of SS Obersturmbannführer EICHMANN, BERLIN [gap, rest missed] 13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250 State secret! To the commander of the Security Police, for the attention of SS Obersturmbannführer HEIM, CRACOW. Re: 14-day report operation REINHARD. Reference: radio telegram from there Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42, L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335 totaling 23611. Situation [gap] 31 December 42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370, T 71355, totaling 1274166. SS and police leader of Lublin, HÖFLE, Sturmbannführer."

According to the US National Security Agency, "It appears the British analysts who had decrypted the message missed the significance of this particular message at the time. No doubt this happened because the message itself contained only the identifying letters for the extermination camps followed by the numerical totals. The only clue would have been the reference to Operation Reinhard, the meaning of which – the plan to eliminate Polish Jewry that was named after the assassinated SS General Reinhard Heydrich – also probably was unknown at the time to the codebreakers at Bletchley."

In any case, after a few insults, Nony returns to the issue of exactly how many Jews died in the holocaust. The number must be known for truth to be known. He says I seek a magic number. There is no evidence, I have never shown any evidence, the only acceptable evidence is the World Almanac which we can safely conclude had no boots on the ground in Germany or Eastern Europe during WW2. All other evidence is devoid of merit or is a lie, a fiction, a belief of the stupid. This is rather a poor defense from Nony.   

And then there's this:

Then this...

And just to directly refute the demonstrably silly point above, Nony says...

First, Nony claims Israel is directly comparable to Nazi Germany. Next, he asserts that there has never been anything comparable to the military dictatorship of Israel. Finally, he says the Nazis committed no massacres - the Allies are the guilty. 

As I've repeatedly said throughout our discussion, Israel warrants harsh criticism for its policies in Palestine. But I have repeatedly accused Nony of lacking balance and context, I believe he is guilty of urging crimes against jews he says abhors in jews.

I've also claimed Nony was possibly anti-semitic. Not everyone agreed with my assertion. This is a loaded term nowadays, used as it is by Israeli apologists to sidestep legitimate criticism of the moral failings of their nation.

However, I think the term applies in this case. Nony's particular loathing of the 'sanctimonious scum' who he says are 'incomparably atrocious' (my paraphrase) should now be clearly visible for all to see. 

outpouring of strawmen doesn't really warrant a sensible reply, Nony.

Another citation of an anonymous source.

Your interest in a website run by criminals whom you trust not to be criminals in this context is amusing.

HOWEVER there is still no physical evidence contradicting the self-reported world population for 1948. Why would Jews self-report a number contrary to fact in 1948?

I see a gremlin...

I can only repeat the death threats against my father and my son. I consider that criminal. Perhaps you do not. Your call.

Excuse but the data I posted included countries such as the US and Russia and most of western Europe which do not collect census data by religion. The data I posted gave jewish sources and catholic sources and such for their numbers. You are certainly free to google world population data for religions and discover they are self-reported.

So if you wish to exclude all data from countries which do not collect census data by religion then you are certainly free to do so. But then you must subtract the US and other data from the totals and agree there were maybe a million or two Jews in the world pre and post war.
 

You are close to making up excuses here. You should know the US does not collect census data on religion. Why are you challenging on something that is common knowledge? I find it amazing that I have to make the point that it is self-reported. What kind of people am I dealing with? Religions ARE self-reported in almost every country in the world. Over the years I happened to find Poland is one of the countries that does collect census data by religion.

Now please research all the countries that do collect census data on religion. I never found it of interest as the US does not and it has the largest jewish population in the world despite a recent Israeli claim which counts non-residents.

PLEASE do better than I have.

A claim is not physical evidence.

All right, could you show me where you posted this data? I didn't see it in this thread or the "Is anti-zionist antisemetic?" thread.

Well, then, I apologize for not knowing that the census doesn't collect religious data.

"SPIKE!"

I have a policy against becoming involved in irrelevant side issues.

6 million was introduced in 1945. There was an evidentiary basis for it or there was not.

Why should arbitrary laws preventing the collection of physical evidence justify stories as proof of alien abductions? How about testimonies to salvation through Jesus Christ? What do they "prove"?

Why do you want these particular stories to be true when they are contrary to the physical evidence?

To take it the important next step you have NEVER looked at or critically evaluated what are called "testimonies" which is meant in exactly the same way as testimonies to salvation are meant. I have. Here is all there is about gas chambers that are not  one line comments in passing which is all the nizkook source is. www.giwersworld.org/holo/nizgas3.html And not a single source was ever under oath with penalty of perjury attached. If you look at the link you will see just how many liars there are in the business. Mutually exclusive things cannot both be true. Things which do not happen cannot be observed. This is how I know you have never looked at the sources. You have only listened to what people tell you about the sources. The description of the thing is not the thing.

It agrees with the yearbook data. It shows sources who reported numbers which do not support a 6 million reduction. How much further need one go? It takes little effort to find the methodologies. In the good old days religions simply counted up their church or synagogue registries. Since the 90s they have all started estimating their "unregistered" members. The last Jewish one is still on hold (last I heard) after a two year debate on who is a Jew and how to estimate non-synagogue members.

The only point of interest is there is no evidenciary basis for 6 million dead in 1945. All else is distraction.

A criminal is a criminal. Demonizing makes it an issue for Buffy to handle.

Think about what you are asking. To rephrase your statement ...

If you do not mean 6 million dead do you mean like internment camps in Britain and the US and Canada and Australia? Do you mean like the Russian Gulags from 1917 thru 1988?

This whole "holocaust" thing is undefined. Not that you cannot find a definition. The problem is you can find dozens of conflicting and mutually exclusive definitions. All cannot be true. www.giwersworld.org/holo/defined.html That was a long time ago when I took a broad brush attempt to address many of the different emotive descriptions which do not arise to the level of definition. Keep in mind refutation of any point does not consist of you personally adopting one you like. It means presenting the contrary physical evidence. Presenting the physical evidence does not mean talking about the physical evidence. It consists only of a description of what the physical evidence is prior to discussing it.

BUT without an evidenciary basis for 6 million in 1945 you have a steep learning curve to make an issue of whatever did happen. And what did happen requires an evidenciary basis not an assumption previous assertions are true. Reason? Today the entire issue of mass extermination begins only after the war between Russia and Germany starts and then the stories only come from communists and communist sources.

For the record it has only been called holocaust since the TV miniseries used that name. Before that it was only called the Shoah, in English disaster, in Arabic Nakbah. It derives from Churchill's polemic phrase "Nazi holocaust" in reference to the war itself in toto and nothing specific. Nakbah is what Palestinians call zionist terror.

At one time I considered doing a lampoon on the claim it was "unique" but never got around to it. If you should ever look at the dozens of attempts to claim it was unique you will find they are all attempts to avoid saying the only reason it was unique is because it happened to Jews. Their attempts are in themselves lampoons. It is not possible to lampoon lampoons.

I will make you a clean offer. You find an official source for an official definition of this event and what it consisted of and I will deal with that. You will discover there is no official source much less a definition or inclusive contents of it.

Yet you are throwing around a word "Holocaust" which has no definition and asking why it did not happen. What IT are you talking about if IT is not defined? 

As my alter ego wrote about the subject

If I were told WWII had been conducted in secret, that all but a few documents
had been destroyed, that those documents were all in code words, and it took a
court to establish that it happened, damned right I would be skeptical.
        -- The Iron Webmaster, 32
 

BTW: for the Nuremberg court it was such a minor part one could almost call it an afterthought.

I suppose I really should have been more specific, but why couldn't I have meant 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 million dead? Are they not also significant numbers? I imagine such a number of people died in the Russian labor camps. So, did Germany have internment camps like these?

No one has to believe me. As I showed you, the existing gas chamber stories NOT testimony is incredible, absurd, mutually contradictory OR all but one story is are lies.

If you should really insist upon testimony then in court testimony can only be TO physical evidence. Testimony to a fact not in evidence is not permitted in western courts. Considering there is not a single autopsy showing death by cyanide testimony to death by cyanide is inadmissible.

google: jewish population census methodology

and find among many http://www.jewishdatabank.org/PopulationStatistics.asp

Which does NOT change the total absence of any 1945 population data.

Please the URLs to the pictures and documents which would constitute evidence of a world wide reduction of six million over the war years. I have seen just about everything. Amaze me.

You are equally free not to believe either claim as is anyone.

It is always correct to demand physical evidence. In the holohugger case in my 16 years of asking after the evidentiary basis for the number claimed in 1945 no one has produced any. Perhaps you will be the first to find it. Surprise me.

Assuming the conclusion is a logical fallacy even when applied to this unworthy cause. I remind you it is your unevidenced belief that the Russians found death camps in Poland.

I know a woman whose father lost his entire family, wife and children, during WWII, at least that is what the Russians told him.

It is not reasonable to expect me to establish, from all the reasons people lie, why this person whom I have never met is telling that story to you. You are also playing a variation upon "prove a negative." If man tells you he met Jesus would you ask me why he is lying to no apparent gain? Why the double standard in what you accept? Was it more credible for the people in the 1st c. AD to believe in Jesus than it is today simply because of proximity in time? Because the witnesses were still alive?

How old is he? He has to have been about 15 in 1940 to have personally known and personally remember any significant number of family members.

Perhaps it is what he was told as a child. So then you would ask me to divine the reason he was told that story.

Then I would remind you "recovered memory syndrome" was first identified as a consequence of analyzing people who got together to remember UFO abductions. But the practice recovering memories started with holocaust "survivors" getting together to remember. And that is when the explosion of gas chamber memories appeared. There were essentially none prior to that. Every book written by people recounting their "surviving" the holocaust has been exposed as a hoax, The Painted Bird and Fragments are just the most recent.

For the record I clearly remember as a child listening to my aunts and uncles talking about where they were when the first heard of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I clearly remember remembering where I was and the radio I was listening to when first heard of it and them laughing when I told them. As it happened before I was born is both an explanation for their laughter but my person recalled memory syndrome.

In the 90s there was a popular phenomenon in Canada of reincarnated Jews remembering their past lives when they were gassed at Auschwitz. No one had the balls to ridicule that but the clowns were given press coverage, the Toronto Star being the most gullible.

Until you have spent your first thousand hours researching this subject you don't have an opinion of interest. Remember the rule, it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert on any subject. But like a believer, you KNOW. Certainty was infused into you because EVERYONE knows it.

So your response to my question of what counts as an official source is "post something I would consider official"?  I still don't know what you consider official!

What would you consider to be evidence of the millions killed in the battles of WWII?

If you've searched and asked for 16 years and have never seen what you consider to be sufficient evidence, then I'm pretty sure it simply doesn't exist.

Wow, can you not see how completely false this statement is?  I'll prove it wrong right here: when I refer to "the Holocaust" I am talking about the death of 5.1 million Jews. Done.

Yup, I am completely aware of that.

Here's the complete conversation:

Your very first offer contained the word "official". I just assumed it was clear what I was referring to--sorry about that.

I think the Holocaust occurred because I have seen some of the alleged evidence for it, heard about tons of alleged evidence for it, and been told the Holocaust occurred by people with degrees in history. Interestingly enough, this is about all I have to back up anything I've been taught in school. So no, I don't have "nothing"--I just have very little.

It occurred at the exact same time and place as the one the Jews talk about; in fact, it is the one the Jews talk about--I just happen to think that 5.1 million is a far more accurate number since it is backed up by the "Holocaust encyclopedia" Atheistextremist referenced. (and yes, I'm aware you don't consider it to be valid evidence)

Nothing, I was simply answering a question you asked me.

"Official source" appears twice in the above statement. This statement first appeared in a post under your name. Unless you didn't write that part, you clearly stated both "official source" and "official definition".

I'll definitely have to check that out.

Well, while I happen to think the evidence for the Holocaust is real evidence, you clearly don't. I typed "alleged evidence" instead of "evidence" to save myself the trouble of hearing, once again, how there is no legitimate evidence for the Holocaust.

Well, all right--I'll get back to you if I find a scholarly consensus on the Holocaust.

In this case, by "scholar" I mean PhD historian, and by "consensus" I mean lots of articles in peer-reviewed academic journals. Since you claim there are no peer-reviewed books or academic papers on the Holocaust published by anyone with a PhD in history--I will get back to you if I ever find any.

What he is trying to do is recover a broken local economy. It is not "honorable", it is common sense. Unlike the oil industry who does not need the billions in subsidies and who basically steal American oil, this man is getting no subsidies. You should ask the question - why?

I am sure the investor you mention explains rape in terms of "well, otherwise she wouldn't have gotten any that night" to us, his wife and kids and to himself in order to be able to sleep at night, but the facts are different. He is not in the business of charity or building up economies; he will avoid laws if he can and create bubbles that will eventually destroy everything in their path wherever he can. "Capital" is global, rules of the market are local; they simply use divide and conquer tactics to destroy the global movement for a law-guided economy that would support a powerful global middle class. Our investor supports fascism instead. Literally. Democratically managed economy is the antithesis to the capital-ruled society and they won't have any of it.

Yes, please continue with one excuse on top of another. Let's all build this boubble and on it this house of cards where the American jobs are the last link called sales and services. See? Plenty of low paid jobs based on nothing and could dissapear in a second to go around. Excuse me, who the fuck are you going to sell the products to, if we all work at WalMart and can't make the mortgage payment?

Alternatively, we could invest in a local infrastructure, so that production doesn't cost that much and so that we keep a steady level of expert knowledge at home. We could also pressure China to improve worker standards (just hammer away at them every day, sort of like we do with Iran for no goddamn reason but to up oil prices and rise war stocks, making the rich richer and our children future posthumous Purple Heart winners), so that the labor competition is more even.

Trouble is, this is not convenient for our investor... no no, this is protectionism, we can't have that. Much more convenient is the free market ideology informed economy, where our manufacturing is run by a communist dictatorship (this should fucking give you pause right here). And it just so happens that these are the people who pay our politicians more than their government jobs do; darn coincidence that their idea is the dominant one.

Awwwwwww, such a shame. You know we gave the banks something in the neighbourhood of 13 trillion $ in bailout & 0% interest loans just the other day. We give the oil industry 46 billion a year for fun. We invest heavily in killing brown people - just so our war industry can flourish. With the tiniest fraction of that money invested in the infrastructure and education, we could be colonizing Mars at this point, let alone producing truck acessories at affordable prices. But that would mean a more democratic economic system and our good hearted business and govenrment leaders can't have that. They are simply a part of a machine that will stop at nothing before it completely grinds to ashes any semblance of middle class anywhere in the world.

So you see, it is not so much a question of who is right, but more a question of how fucking stupid you have to be to accept their self-deluding arguments at face value or even just discuss them as, what was it you called them, "reasonable and honorable points".

It is good that is what you mean.

Because by that meaning there are no such papers. Because there are no such papers there cannot be a consensus.

If you disagree with that all you need to do is cite the papers and books which support the extermination of six million. Note again the extermination of six million Jews is the only thing I have been discussing. I have address nothing else.

Before you post books you think satisfy your criteria you should first verify the academic field and the peer-review process applied. For example Debbie Lipschitz has a degree in comparative religion, taught in the department of Religion and Psychology at Pepsi-Cola U, and was subjected to no review process.

For the record you will note I do NOT bring it up. People can't let go of it no matter how many times they fail to produce evidence for their beliefs in that subject. Nor are they able to stop themselves from bringing it up any every possible context. You can trace back this discussion and see for yourself I did not bring it up. I am very careful not to even hint at it.

That said a long time ago I realized ours was the "only" society that did not have any officially upheld absurd beliefs such as in witchcraft or racial superiority. Realizing that was highly unlikely I began looking for the parallel in today's society.

I have found several over the years. This one is just the most emotional ranking even above atheism although theism does not count as one of the discoveries. It is possible to rationally discuss the reality of WWII rather than the farcical patriotic nonsense of good against evil without necessarily running into holohuggery but holohuggery is always the trump card. (Godwin's Law is inherently antisemitic in that sense.)