Just met a skeptic who sells homeopathic remedies!
Offline First let me say I'll be the first one to admit that I've seen how incredibly gullible people are, and thought how easy it would be to make money off of them. I've thought how easy it would be to sell religious books or other items (people seem to buy them like crazy... pun intended.) The thing is though, despite the fact that I'm financially ruined and totally broke.... I haven't.
So yesterday I stopped at a friend's house to return a movie. An acquaintance of hers was there, and we were introduced. My friend told the guy that I was really a skeptic, when church got brought up. He responded that he was too, and that he only helped out making some repairs at the church they were talking about, because his Mom begged him too. I was thinking I might get along with this new guy after we talked a bit. Then the subject of side jobs came up, and my friend was telling me how he sold stuff on eBay.... like homeopathic medicines! I was visibly amused by the fact that a self proclaimed skeptic sold that crap, so he explained. He had gotten several cases of random stuff at an estate auction to resell on eBay. One of the cases had been full of homeopathic remedies that he later sold for an average of $15 dollars for a tiny bottle. Now this is where it gets good. He made so much from it, that he looked into it, and realized it was nothing but water (diluted to about 1 part in an ocean's worth of water)..... so he started making and selling his own! I debated with him for a few minutes about selling snake oil. At one point he made a few excuses, something about "at least they get the placebo effect" and "I was dead broke when I started up making my own" and "at least I'm not making money selling harmful drugs or worse, dealing drugs." My friend knew I would tear the guy's argument to shreds if I kept on. So after I got the look (you know the one that says "You BETTER NOT do it!" ) I made an excuse and left (out of respect for my friend.) On the way out he says "Hey, you know people are going to buy that crap whether I sell a couple hundred bottles on top of the millions sold or not." I turned and replied "I know you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes, I was just surprised is all." Again I just wanted to leave it alone out of respect for my friend.
I tried to see if I could see any obvious homemade stuff on eBay from his area, but didn't see anything obvious, and I didn't have his seller ID. Too bad, I was curious how many $15 ounces of water this guy had sold.
I've been just smh ever since I talked to that guy. Most of the time I think that the majority of homeopath peddlers are just deluded people selling what they believe works. I knew many many people were out there making money off of what they know to be pure scams, but meeting one that was a reasonable skeptic kind of blew my mind a little.
What do you guys think about the morality of what the guy is doing? If you were dead broke and about to lose your house, or in some other situation like you couldn't put food on the table for whatever reason, would you, could you do something like that?
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
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Tony, I agree that it is creepy. Still, the “got to do what you got to do” has to be the back story on this.
I lost my job back in June. I will sort that out later. Probably much later than I would like but I have little choice on the matter. Even so, making money is a good idea.
I really want to use my real skills. However, if I hit the wall, I might find myself in the not very great position. Will I sell my soul? Well I don't actually have one but I could end up in the place where I have to make that choice.
I have preferences and I have needs. If a local church will help me pay the rent in trade for a web site, I fail to see an issue.
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I think it is far better to sell harmful drugs. When you sell meth to a methhead you aren't pretending it is something healthy or lying to your customer you are providing a product that is exactly what the customer expects they simply don't care that it might kill them. So I don't think selling drugs is any more immoral than selling anything else that could potentially kill a person where the customer is aware of the inherent dangers.
If your selling homeopathic remedies you are intentionally lying to your customer telling them they will be cured when you know they won't be. If that causes them to have further medical complications, you are partially at fault and scum in my eyes. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. There are so many ways to make an honest dollar, I don't see lack of finances as a legitimate excuse. And I think that most homeopathic and other bullshit peddlers know they are full of shit and I hold a generally low opinion of all of them.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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For employed people, I would tend to agree that running a meth lab is more honest.
However, with the unemployment insurance clock ticking, buying a case of tiny bottles beats whatever it costs to set up a meth lab. All things considered, there is other stuff I would prefer doing. However, I am standing in front of a fan and the shit is slowly headed there.
Don't get me wrong, if I lived near enough to you, I would rather sweep up in your liquor store to pay the rent.
That being said, risking jail time versus charging whatever the traffic will bear for essentially nothing is not a hard choice. I would rather not but if I do, I will fill the bottles from the toilet just because.
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Just the type of thing I would expect from you.
While I DO think that non-violent drug users should be treated and not jailed and addiction should be treated as a health issue and not a criminal issue, there is a REASON high drug areas have high crime. Legalizing all drugs would not stop crime. Meth is dangerous and should never be legal. How many cops have you talked too about what it does to society. How many doctors and MEs do you think would say that Meth should be legal.
You are just as utopia in your thinking with your attitudes about personal choice and politics as any damned theist I have seen.
LIFE IS NEVER black and white. Choices do matter, but choices are NOT the only thing that affect you, and no matter what you think there are ALWAYS things outside your own control that can and do affect you, even if you don't realize it.
Reality is just like predicting a hurricane. We can have an idea about its size and speed and direction. BUT at the same time we CANNOT predict the exact amount of rain drops, or which houses it will destroy and which ones it wont.
LIFE is not all order or all chaos and I'd advise you to get your head out of your rear and stop thinking that everything is always about choices.
I am willing to go as far as giving non-violent addicts more of a break than violent ones. I am willing to make pot legal and treat it like beer. I am not willing to legalize things like meth or coke or heroine.
Again, life is never either/or and is more a combo of choices AND outside forces.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
IMO If you do freelance work you don't turn down work just because it's a church... if that happens I would take their money. If it were the KKK, Sarah Palin or Pat Robertson I might have an issue. Then again I could probably figure out how to leave a way for hackers to "accidentally" find their way into the site after it's built, so might be tempting after all.
IDK about that, I don't think meth/crack/pcp is justifiable period, let alone more justifiable than selling snake oil. Selling someone some water to fix their dry scalp is hardly as bad as giving them something made of lithium and drain cleaner, that you know will slowly kill them. I will say though, there are homeopathic remedies that claim to help cure cancer, and other severe conditions. That's pretty much the lowest you can get, to prey on people with serious or fatal diseases.
Funny thing to me is.... where do you draw the line? I guarantee there are supplement companies out there selling products that they know don't work, IE. shark cartilage (BTW I have no idea if that works or not, just strikes me as one that could be garbage.) These companies are pretty much doing the same thing we're talking about on a much bigger scale.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
Just because something is more honest doesn't make it more moral. Especially not when suffering is involved. If you continually sell to 200 meth customers and 200 homeopathy customers with conditions ranging from dry skin to cancer (most of them being on the less serious end of the scale.) Which customer base did you cause more suffering to? IDK why they would be considered in the same ball park TBH.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
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Well, when mom was on the way out and her lifetime cap for cancer treatments had been used up, we spent months making runs to the Sloan Kettering cancer center for her research treatments. Basically large doses of beta carotiene. No paper was ever published on the matter.
At least they were not charging her.
Add to that that since we were in NYC anyway, there was the side trip to chinatown for caterpillar fuzz. Did one, the other or both provide a few extra months? Nobody will ever know. The rail road got a bit of cash but had no clue why. The Chinese merchants probably think that they did the job but mom is still gone. The hospital got a boat load of federal research money.
So who was the most moral in that deal? I will side with public transit.
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As an aside, I love the Jefferson quote in your sig. I wish my counterparts would take head to it. If they only realize how much they COULD get what they want "less government" if they would do more directly on their own to help those in the middle and the bottom. Instead they want to turn us back to the wild west days, that if they actually lived in, they wouldn't like it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Just read about something that happened that's so damn fitting for this thread it's not even funny.
"Donald Lapre "King of Infomercials" found dead"
PHOENIX (Reuters) - A TV infomercial pitchman accused of defrauding more than 226,000 people out of nearly $52 million has died in his Arizona jail cell of an apparent suicide, authorities said on Monday.
Donald Lapre, 47, was found dead at about 8:30 a.m. on Sunday at a facility in Florence, Arizona, where he was being held on fraud and other related charges, U.S. Marshal's spokesman Matt Hershey said.
Lapre, the self-proclaimed "King of Infomercials," was awaiting a trial next October after being indicted on 41 charges stemming from a nationwide scheme to sell what was billed as "The Greatest Vitamin in the World."
Hershey declined to say if Lapre had been on a suicide watch or how he could have killed himself, citing an ongoing investigation.
Lapre had been charged with conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, promotional money laundering and transactional money laundering.
Authorities said Lapre and others were able to get investors to buy worthless Internet-based businesses that primarily sold the vitamins from April 2003 through October 2007.
The federal grand jury indictment, made public in June, revealed that that 226,794 people had signed up for the scheme, losing an estimated $51.8 million.
In a rambling note on his website, Lapre said he did nothing wrong.
"I did not have the perfect company, but never once did I allow one thing to be done that would violate any law," he wrote on donlapre.com.
"Nevertheless, because the majority of people did not make money ... I am left to fight a battle that will for sure destroy what energy I have left inside."
(Reporting by David Schwartz; Editing by Dan Whitcomb and Cynthia Johnston)
Not that I'm trying to make light out of someones suicide or their death, but damn. This guy was scamming the public with frickin vitamins of all things, AND scammed over 200k people out of over $50 million while he was at it? Holy crap! To be accurate the websites people were buying from him lost all the money, but in the end it was all a scam from which he no doubt benefited nicely.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
Yeah, because drugs are ILLEGAL. Therefore, if you are in an area where there are a lot of drugs being used, you are in an area with high crime by definition. If breathing were illegal everywhere there was a living person would be a high crime area.
I never claimed it would. It would stop all drug crimes because they would no longer be against the law. Obviously, making drugs illegal has not made them hard to obtain and it is highly questionable if it has reduced use at all, let alone significantly. Legalize drugs and cops can focus on other crimes.
Yeah, meth is bad for you. Don't use it. But if you are stupid enough to use it, I'm not going to throw you in jail. If you come to me and ask for help, I will help you. Making things illegal increases the level of violence surrounding that activity because you can't go to the police and the people you deal with KNOW you can't go to the police. We have seen it with prohibition, prostitution, drugs and gambling.
But beyond that, it is your body, you ought to be able to put any substance you want in it. Only when you decide you are going to come rob me or assault me etc. does it become my concern. Many people use hard drugs and don't steal or murder. It is usually the trade of illegal drugs that is surrounded by violence. Our own President has admitted to using cocaine, do you think he would have been better off being thrown in jail? If he had been thrown in jail in college, somehow I doubt we would be talking about President Obama today.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Sure the methheads suffer more from a utilitarian standpoint but I reject utilitarianism. I am not concerned about what is or is not good for the most people. I am concerned about the individual being free to make choices for themselves for better or for worse. The meth users generally are aware of the dangers and harm caused by the drug. They simply don't care, they have made the decision that the feeling they get from using the drug is worth the consequences. Just because I think their decision is a bad one and I believe they will likely regret it in the future is irrelevant.
For example, I have a tradition on Thursday nights I go to the same bar and drink unhealthy amounts of booze with some friends and smoke a cigar or two. It is quite unhealthy for me and given that I have a lung condition my doctor has screamed (literally) at me for smoking. It is likely that at some point in the future my actions will reduce my lifespan. I have decided it is worth it as those nights have resulted in some really great memories and a group of friends I have become close with. Is it immoral for the bartender to serve me? Or the smoke shop to sell me a smoke? I don't think so. As the consumer, I am aware of the dangers and have consciously decided to accept them, the bartender and clerk are simply supplying my demand. If I get lung cancer or have liver failure, the fault is mine (and those damn friends who encourage me to drink more!
).
Now if you are actively pushing the meth on people who are not users, I suppose there is an argument that would be immoral as the product is extremely addictive but I'm not sure how many people who don't use meth are persuaded to try it through dealer advertising. In my personal experience most drug users are persuaded by peers who are also drug users and drug dealers tend to be wary of anyone they don't know (at least the smart ones are).
Now homeopathics that are used to cure irritants like dry scalp I will concede are more funny than immoral. I would put those in the category of dolphin channeling, fortune telling or astrology. Yeah, it is a little shady but is also generally harmless outside of the sucker losing a few bucks. I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for people who buy into that kind of BS. With my statement, I was thinking more along the lines of homeopathic medicines that promise cures for potentially serious medical issues and appeal to people who are in a desperate and scary situation. Over the last two years both my mother and grandmother were battling cancer and I would have paid anything for any chance to improve their odds of surviving. When you are taking advantage of people in that kind of emotional situation I think you have clearly crossed the line into immorality.
@ AIGS
Yeah, I get the practical problems with dealing drugs. I was just focused on the morality of it alone. But if your going to go into scamming, I suggest going with something that wouldn't cause physical harm to gullible customers. Just take their money. Make a holy grilled cheese and put it on display for a few bucks. With some practice I'll bet you could create the Last Supper on an omelet and proclaim it a miracle. WAIT! Brilliant idea just came to me. Create a pancake with the image of Bama on it. National press attention, government art grant, you won't have to work for decades.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Beyond: Right, if golden palace.com will do the deal then I can retire.
That seems like a long shot though. Getting people with way more much money than sense to drink from my toilet does sound a bit better than getting people with not quite enough money for me to have a gold plated toilet though.
I would rather use my skills than take cash from the gullible but rich people with no damned brains sounds like a slightly more moral deal than becoming a preacher.
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I find it ethically abhorent. And yet, I'm not sure there's much difference between willful ignorance and blatant dishonesty. It should be illegal to sell the shit in the first place, simply because it is false advertising.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
On a funny side note to this whole situation..... my girl got game!
I thought about this after I left my friend's house that night. She seemed interested in the guy, and may have been trying to seduce him. I got that vibe, so that was one more reason why I didn't get into a bigger debate, and made an excuse to leave.
So I called up my friend last night, and during the convo I said "I hope I didn't **** up your game the other night." She kinda laughed, and said you oughta know me better than that.... you coming over was exactly what I needed. I kinda knew where she was going with that, and I lmao. She said "yeah, I kinda made him jealous flirting with you while you were here, so when you left I just let him chase me." We joke and flirt a lot together naturally, we're still only friends, but we can play like that. At one point while I was there she was joking with me about carrying some furniture for her next week, and jokingly called me her personal pack mule, and was squeezing my arms for effect. Apparently she was in an even more playful mood than usual, cause when she said that she jumped up on my back for a piggy back ride and slapped me on the ass. Of course it was right in front of the dude, and worked like a charm for her. Apparently after I left he was all concerned about who I was and if her and I had been together before. Lol. She had been my wing-woman at the bar a couple times, so I told her I was glad I could return the favor.
So, moral of the story: not only did I confront a sheister, but I got a buddy laid in the process! See you really can make a difference if you stick to your values! Haha!
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
I can't figure out why they don't actually do something about false advertising (at least here in the US.) Here you can say pretty damn near anything in an ad or commercial as long as you have some fine print that counters it. Basically you can have a spokesman bold-face lie, and then say it's not actually true in the fine print and you're good. This is BS as far as regular products go, but when it comes to something you spend money on to improve your health I can't fathom why this is acceptable. There must be lobbyists from all kinds of industries giving politicians a reach around on that issue to keep the laws solely in their favor. I can't stand that about this country.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
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I agree. But paying the rent really comes out on top.
Ethically, it is fraud but it seems to be legal. I had not considered it before but the post office has free mailiing supplies.
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I can't really disagree with you. If there are people with enough money but not enough thought to waste on such things then there's a market. And if there's a market available, people will utilise it. I'd have nothing to say to someone paying the bills. You pretty much have to compromise your ethics in favour of corporate ethics (or be "lucky" enough to share those ethical ideas) to get anywhere these days.
But if you became a millionaire I'd stop having nothing to say.
And it should still be addressed from the core problem of the prevalence of misinformation and unproven claims in advertisements and other non-fictional sources. There needs to be far more strict rules on making claims in these media. A fine print or half second flash of a disclaimer isn't good enough. There need to be punishments doled out to any person or organisation which makes a false or unsupported claim about ANYTHING in non-fictional media sources. Speculation is fine, but put it in the fiction section where it belongs.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Wouldn't hurt for the public to stop being fine with it! It seems like there's SO much BS out there, that the public is used to it, and accepts it.
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."