Students in New York occupy Wall Street
In the heart of global finances there is a civil unrest of people, who demand justice and social security. People do not want to suffer anymore because of greed, corruption and selfishness, which are the base of the current economic system.
At the beginning of September, a group of young people gathered in New York through the Internet and social media. They decided to show their disagreement with the current situation of majority of USA citizens. They chose Wall Street as the place of their protest, because the majority of crises and problems of contemporary world originate there. They have had enough of the incessant worsening of social, economic and financial affairs of vast majority of Americans, while the real culprits among bankers and corporations are rewared for their mistakes. They do not hide their inspirations by similar actions in Spain or Egypt. They want to continue in protest actions, until they achieve change of this system. For the saturday of 17.9. they organized the protest gathering, right at the heart of the financial world, the Wall Street. Several thousand people arrived, mostly young and students. Although the police prevented them from marching in front of the main stock market buildings, their protest was heard far. One of the action's goals was for some of them to stop this financial machine, which is the source of corruption, poverty, greed and does not bring anything good to the common people. As one of the participants said, they also want to talk about the problems from where they originate, because the contemporary market system must be humanized.
They want an economic system, where people will decide for people and not rich for the rich.
People of various opinions and from various groups gathered at the demonstration, but also the common people, who are not content with the current crisis and its solution. We can just quote some slogans on the transparents:
"We want to disturb war, not peace"
"Stop dealing with our future"
"People, not profit" "New Yorkers say enough to the greed of Wall Street“ "Wall Street is our street" "Give people work, not war!" "Can't afford a lobbyist - I'm one of 99% of the people" They plan the protest as long-termed occupation of the area and they also call on other cities to join them. And really, some other cities underwent similar actions. For example, in Boston people entered a branch of Bank of America and demanded, that the bank must return what received from the people through the state, start investing into the economy and stop cancelling job positions. In New York meanwhile the protests continue the third day already. Hundreds of tired demonstrants sleep on sidewalks and in parks. During the day, the numbers of protesters grow to several thousand.Together with the thought of public protests, there is spontaneously organized New York general assembly, where people discuss about what they want and how to achieve it. It is an open, horizontally organized plattform, where people together want to become a force, that will counteract the current crises. To achieve that, mere thoughts are not enough. This is why they learn there how to lead a collective discussions, how to communicate with media, how to arrange a legal support for the actions, etc.
The protesters estabilished their HQ in a nearby park, which was renamed on the Freedom park. The organizers succesfully use the Internet since the beginning and they provide regular news on their website https://occupywallst.org, including videoreports, general assembly meeting notes, people's suggestions, and also calls for further actions and links to allied websites. Sympathies of people from all the America and other countries show in such a way, that when they asked for food provision, the local pizzeria was just in a hour flooded with orders from all the continent and Europe. People readily give their raincoats or blankets, to help in the protest. The procession goes every day into the surrounding streets and is joined by many bystanders, so it often returns several times bigger than it started. In comments to one of the videos from protest action there are mostly opinions of agreement. One cogent opinion says: "The history proves, that when students start to demonstrate peacefully and they have the right, WE all start too... that's close to the revolution, change. We need these young people to get us started! They are our future and they want their rights... What's wrong about that?" ************************************* My comment: I found surprisingly few news about this. None in the media, very little on the Google. Weird. I hope this is not hoax. I really did not expect this kind of thing, so soon and in the heart of financial axis of evil. The text is my hasty translation from Czech website prichod.cz (means arrival) which watches and reports on signs of hope and change in the world. So please, you who live nearby, can you tell me something more about this? I want the people's voice grow stronger and stop Wall Street's systematic misuse of money, stop all worldwide financial speculation and stock market trade with resources. This looks like a significant step towards it. Remember, sharing will save the world. In other words, the resource-based economy, not the current global resource market, controlled by a handful of rich people.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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GOD DAMN IT! It is not someone's wealth that is the problem, it is the CLIMATE OF ATTITUDE.
Far too many people think that as long as they got theirs, and claim that having no limits wont hurt others, IS WHAT IS HURTING and in the process buy government to keep it that way. Not all wealthy people do this, but far too many.
It should not be a class war but it IS and it is not because of the middle class or the poor. It is the fault of corporate America masturbating jealously over the profits of China and India and the slave labor they use to beat us.
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RatDog wrote:The genetic engineer part doesn't seem possible right now. As for controls on our behavior, what kinds of controls are you suggesting?
I would say make family planning an obligation the same way we make paying income tax. Close off immigration to all but a small number of highly educated people.
I like the idea of mandatory family planning. If that could become a reality I think it would be a good thing.
The immigration issue is more complicated. That ties into the whole global economy, and free trade thing. Really, I don't buy the idea of free trade between countries as it stands now. That implies that that the countries and the people involved care about free trade, but really I think that the people, companies and countries involved are all looking out for their own interests often at the expense of free trade. They call it free trade one hand, while the other hand is busy unfairly manipulating the system towards their own advantage. In this game there are winners and losers and right now it looks like the American middle class is moving towards the looser category. I suppose that it's not over yet, but if things are going to get better for the American middle class things have to change. I am assuming that your post was about immigration in America, and that your suggestion was for preserving the middle class in America. If I'm wrong about your motivation I'm sorry.
If saving the middle class is the goal there are probably a number of different strategies that could be implemented. I don't pretend to know what the right answer is with certainty or really even what the goal should be, but I have a few thoughts. Sometimes I feel more confident in them than others.
Strategy one would be "skilled labor". This strategy involves training people to have skills which will make them valuable in the global market. This is the strategy we are trying to use right now, but it doesn’t seem to be working very well. Some things that might improve the situation might involve finding new ways to incentivizes people to get an education in technical fields. Also, for this strategy limiting immigration to only highly educated people would be a plus. The problem with this strategy is that it seems to be failing, and turning it around might be difficult to impossible.
Strategy two would be "protectionism". This would involve, in some measure, abandoning the ideals of free trade. Various different strategies have been employed for this over the years including tariffs. There are two ways this can be done. One would be openly. The problem with this would be that other countries wouldn't appreciate it, and might respond in kind. America is reliant on other countries for many different things. One such thing is oil. America produces 5.6 million barrels a day and it consume around 19. Loosing that oil would be a big hit to it, and there are other things which it wouldn’t want to lose as well. The other way of doing protectionism would be hidden protectionism. This seems to be the strategy of China which subsidizes and aids many of its industries in hidden ways. The problem with this strategy is that other countries might notice which means that it would need something to hold over other countries heads to keep them from calling America on it. China owns a lot of other countries debts and has a monopoly on certain industries like the mining of rare earth metals that the modern world really needs. Other countries would have to be pretty brave to do more than grumble at some of China’s more dubious practices. If America wanted to pursue a strategy like China it would need to make other countries reliant on it like they are on China. For that it might benefit from treating workers badly like China does, and using cheep unskilled immigrant labor might help as well. Also, it would probably need to abuse its Environment more like China does. This wouldn't help the middle class in the short run. It would really be more of a long run strategy where first you cripple everyone else’s economy while growing your own and gaining a monopoly in many key industries. Latter when everyone else’s economy is destroyed you can buy up all the remaining natural resources cheep. This is what I think China is trying to do, and right now they appear to be succeeding. I acknowledge that I might be wrong, and apologize if I am depicting them unfairly but I don't think I am. I also acknowledge that America has it's own questionable practices. In regards to what I was talking about, I don't really like this strategy, but in the effort for completeness I'm listing it as one of the options anyway.
Strategy three is "living within our means". This strategy would involve America minimizing or eliminating its involvement with global trade, and just living as best it can with the resources that are available to it. This would involve the sacrifice of most luxuries and probably the restructuring of its major institutions. The problem with this is that I'm not sure anyone would go for it. Also immigration and population increase would need to be minimal.
Option four is "cooperation". This strategy is not something that America can do. It is something that would need to be done by everyone, perhaps by forming a world government elected by all of the people. This government could manage the things that individual countries can't manage alone. Things like the environment, human rights and maybe a single currency which can't be manipulated easily. The problem with this is that cooperation on this scale seems like a monumental task.
Right now I like strategy number three and four. They seem to be incredibly hard, but all the other strategies seem to be leading to an impending crash of the whole system, and with it a lot of unpleasantness.
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I don't see free trade as a problem. In normal circumstances, if there is a trade imbalance, the currencies move up or down to correct the imbalance.
But the USA debt is so huge now that the only way to service it is sell it to foreigners. So our dollar go out to buy from other countries, then the dollars come back to buy or massive debt at all levels federal, state, business and personal.
So it pretty much a vicious cycle, the foreign dollars are not coming back to fund jobs but to buy debt. Every time this has happened before in history, it inevitable leads to more an more crisis until we just default on all the debt.
So if there is going to be reform after the crash, we need to stop being a nation of debt.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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I think capitalism needs to be modified so that wealth is only generated through work or wise investment. No more making easy money by lobbing politicians, owning natural resources, lending to the poor, etc... You still need a system that lets people enjoy the fruits of their own labor and their still must be investment because it takes a long time to bring products to consumers. You can't just ignore this necessity.
But you still have the same problem if the government does investment. They'll pick winners and losers, like Solyndra. The problem with government investment is that the decision makers are disinterested parties, so they are not motivated to study and do diligence to see what is going to be worth the investment. If the government invests and it goes bad the person that made the decision loses nothing. So in an RBE there will be a lot of waist on bad investments.
Also, a politician's bank account and property list should be published online mandatorily.
But look at you, you gave up on computer programming because it was so difficult. All the Occupy WS people did the same thing, it's fucking hard to make hi-tech stuff work well. You got to motivate people to work on this. Taking all the wealth hi-tech professionals produce and giving it to people that find technology and computers too difficult or boring to pursue aint gonna work.
And when they trade the free stuff you give them for drugs, iPods, cars, Walmart shit, etc. what do you do? When they have 10 kids and give you the finger when you tell them to stop, then what?
I never said the poor hoard wealth. They're poor, so obviously they don't have any wealth to hoard. But the fact that there is so much poverty makes people hoard wealth because they don't ever want to become that way. So you have to eliminate first scarcity to eliminate hoarding. Again you are ignoring the common cause, hoarding is not the root cause of scarcity, it's overpopulation.
You and Ocuppy WS are trying to steal it right, shouldn't they be afraid since many support violence to take it? So why even protest or put forth RBE, they can't work, right? The rich just hoard all the wealth.
Well in the RBE system the government is the sole insurance provider, right? Except there are no premiums. So why ever try to prevent something bad like a robbery, fire, auto accident. The government comes in and makes everything right, until society is bankrupt.
As for robbery, you'd better check with sociology and criminology for causes of crime to see, if they have any basis in RBE.
Inflation cause by too many people chasing too few resources. The fed printing money also. People can't pay because of high taxes and poor job training.
Is it my responsibilty to make sure the 3rd world has 12 billion starving masses instead of 6 billion? I want to enjoy some material things, so what? It's not my fault other cultures just keep having babies when they can't take care of them.
So you demand everyone has a house, food and healthcare, but you want a fun job. Seems like you're quite the hypocrite. You want there to be free healthcare, but taking care of sick people isn't fun enough for you. Doesn't your attitude toward work prove that RBE won't ever work?You don't seem to have much ground to talk about selfishness and greed of others.
Mindless repetitive work makes me do... bad things. And careless. Aargh, the VOICES!!! Makes me want to scream, throw a wrench into the machine, jump on a crate and start organizing a strike. So I have a deep appreciation of the salt of the earth people, who don't go crazy in 8 or 10 hours of checking one car per minute. Probably they've got nothing in there to go crazy with. I can work my ass off, but it must be my way. Pretty much what I already do. Educating people, discussion, negotiation, planning, designing the future, studying personalities and social problems... I need creativity and discussion to live.
I believe that self-realization is a personal right that the society must be designed to achieve. Self-realization is worth enough to turn the world order upside down. Living a purposeful life is more important than earning money. The only thing equally important is getting along well with others and the environment. These are two basic tenets. Everything else may go to hell or serve these purposes. I don't give shit about the contemporary culture of ownership, laws, consumption, identity and duty. Didn't do us much good anyway. We must move on carefully but swiftly to a better system of society.
Are not 'greed', 'love' and 'caring' just words as well?Seriously Luminon you can not have read or understood any of these books. Of course genes are a basis for behavior. You're going to eat when you're hungry, how did that behavior get programmed into you? Social hormones make you more of a social animal, what causes it to be produced? Autism causes anti-social behaviors, are you saying Autism has no genetic basis?
Genes thereby become only one of many influences upon us and usually not the strongest one. Social hormones aren't worth shit, unless there is a society and a brain socially aware enough to put on the latest fashion.
No, I haven't read these books, I listen to them in mp3.
It's all a game of survival. We're social animals so nature gets us high on feelings of love and caring. But we're all drug addicts without any freewill to be otherwise. If the hormone balance in your brain changed, you'd stop 'caring' at all.Any behavior that does not provide on average a net benefit is not going to survive evolution, right? So 'loving' and 'caring' are for the benefit of the one doing it, not one receiving it.
Where do think the instructions to build the nervous system and every other system of the body came from? Please.
At what point in our long evolution did we become capable of 'love'? In some generation our ancestors were too primitive to love and then the next they could?You just pointed out how insects sacrifice for each other. Why is that just genetic programming for their common survival and in humans, love? Isn't it just that humans employ more complex strategies, but it's all the same game, survival?
How many brains cells must a species have for it to switch from primitive behavior to love? What is the threshold?
It has to me a feudal lord to take wealth from workers and give it to others.So no one says, "I'm going to work my ass off growing food, building houses, taking care of the sick, etc..." I'm just going to fuck around, maybe take a music or art class, sleep in bed till noon all day and party all night.
All I can imaging is it quickly turning into massive famine and war over the necessities to survive because the government runs out of free stuff to pass out very quickly.
Secondly, the tomorrow comes out of today and today there are many qualified, motivated workers. They are not going to disappear overnight. They are not going to stop working overnight, if economic threat disappears. Quite opposite, they will be more than willing to work to make the economic threat disappear. To create a self-sustaining system that will not give them a monthly bill to pay. They will be motivated to see fruits of their labor used for them and people like them (mostly in local community), not used for private profit of the few.
The desire to procreate that has been ingrained in human genetics for hundreds of millions of years just magically goes away because everyone has what the need to survive. You have as much faith as any theist ever has.
The urges to survive and to procreate are different. And our society can override them both. Your country needs you. Philip Morris. A baby-coach costs 200 dollars, a condom only 2 dollars.
So who is the blind believer here?
Well this is all just believing in a conspiracy theory without any evidence. It's like the oil companies won't let an electric car be made BS. There is nothing from stopping about 1000 RBE disciples from going off and starting a laboratory on their own. The hippies did this in the 60's, religious cults do it. The reason is because you all don't really believe your own propaganda. Like most left wing fantasies, it's really a ploy to get something for nothing or to make yourself believe you 'care' without doing shit.
I'm not sure if you noticed, but the decision-making institutions are hierarchical. The few heads up make an idea, the heads in the middle work out how to apply that idea and the heads at the bottom, ours, work their asses off and suffer the consequences if it was a bad idea. The top heads think they're the most important. If they sit high enough, they lose any idea what the people on the bottom need. They start making bad decisions, lose contact with reality and then there comes some angry crowd and breaks their nice fantasy apart. Hell, even Plato described that process. That's one of the first things they tell you at a class of politology.
I'm not saying anything new or surprising, far from it. By denying it you only ridicule yourself.
I was in the 98th percentile last year, so I better not make any more money this year or I'll cross the threshold from being good to evil. Do any of these protesters know the income level where people switch form being us to them?
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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I don't see free trade as a problem. In normal circumstances, if there is a trade imbalance, the currencies move up or down to correct the imbalance.
But the USA debt is so huge now that the only way to service it is sell it to foreigners. So our dollar go out to buy from other countries, then the dollars come back to buy or massive debt at all levels federal, state, business and personal.
So it pretty much a vicious cycle, the foreign dollars are not coming back to fund jobs but to buy debt. Every time this has happened before in history, it inevitable leads to more an more crisis until we just default on all the debt.
So if there is going to be reform after the crash, we need to stop being a nation of debt.
There is no real free trade. Free trade is just an ideal that some people at least seem to believe in. It only works if everyone really believes in it, but not everyone really believes in it. Some groups just pay lip service it while seeking to game the system towards their own advantage. Even if everyone did believe in the ideals of free trade it would still not work in the long run because the underlying assumptions are flawed. Free trade will not always make things better for everyone because resources are limited, and sometimes one person’s gain is another person’s loss. When resources are plentiful this isn’t true as often, but when resources become scarce the ideals of free trade become a liability. I believe that we are entering into such a time right now. I know that my views about this are in a minority on this site, but there are other people who share my thinking. If you want to learn more about it you should check out this site. Right now other countries, like France and China, seem to be trying to prepare for the future. Other countries seem to be hardly registering that there is a serious problem. America seems to be completely in denial. I think that the high prices that resource constraints are causing are responsible for a large part of the recent stagnant economic growth, and I believe that things aren’t going to get better without addressing the underlying problems. I know that everyone has some group or ideology they blame, but I think that by ignoring the very real physical challenges that are facing all of us they aren’t getting a clear picture of how things really are.
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Because claims on unemployment affect the tax rate.
Selfish attitude once again. You think your class is the only one with rights and the only one that pays taxes. FUCK OFF.
Answers paid taxes too. I pay taxes too.
The idea of you paying unemployment is to DISCOURAGE you from firing people. It is a social contract written into law that it is better to employ people than to have them jobless. It is an idea of compassion, something your mindset lacks.
It is a lot like spousal support. In a marriage the breadwinner is not the dictator simply because they earn the most money. In a divorce the one who makes the most money is EXPECTED to help maintain that person so that they are not left homeless.
You have the same mesoginistic attitude about the economy that some married men have about woman who are housewives, "I pay the bills"
I don't give a shit how much money you make or what you own or what your fucking title is. You are not the only one who votes and if I vote and win, DON'T BITCH because it is my system too.
You jack off over the word "competition" and then when others compete politically you cry like a whiny child.
You're mindset fucked up the economy and exploded the pay gap and now that others want something different you cry like a fucking baby.
So either you value political competition or you dont? But you are not going to get away with the bullshit robbery claim. It was robbery what the banks did. It is robbery to over price ANYTHING just because you can. It is not robbery to go into the voting booth to change the lawmakers to insure that the past 30 years don't keep repeating the same mistakes.
Unemployment is not mooching and if you don't want to pay it then maybe you should care more about HOW you make a buck and care more about those below you. But don't bitch when they vote too.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Could you please elaborate? What modifications to capitalism? That might be something good.
I agree with the OWS that lending money that depends on garnishment of one's future labor should be made illegal. The student loans, mortgages and payday advance loans that keep the working man in debt just are not working out for anyone. Ownership of natural resources which require not labor to create should be banned.
But a lot of people get rich from government money. The leftist insist on programs like medicare, they money ends up in pockets of big pharmacy or billionaires like Ross Perot. We need a system where money is only transferred for necessary labor or wise investments. Taxation facilitates a money for nothing economy.
Government should decide by the opinions of experts. Academies and chambers must provide the opinion and politicians the decision. Ultimately, politicians should just organize the process, if they haven't got the brains for understanding the issues.
This is where your theory of human behavior fails you. People need a big carrot and a big stick to motivate them to do a good job. What is to motivate these 'experts' to do a good job? The problem is the 'experts' have no skin in the game.
Good investment require good do diligence. So if a government official isn't going to lose money or lose his job when an investment goes bad, why should he bother with doing the hard work to find out if the people he gives money or in the case of RBE resources is a good idea. That's why are schools are failing, no one loses their job or their pension when they do. Solyndra was a bad investment, but does any of the 'experts' lose their job and pension over it? No.
Also, a politician's bank account and property list should be published online mandatorily.
And societies need to dump the archaic idea of needing a leader. Be a leader of your own life. Politicians need to be public servants that can be fired when they screw up.
Not exactly. Programming was my childhood dream, so I spent 5 years making games. But then I saw pointers and memory allocation in C++ and also, that there is way too many programmers, but very few sensible people. I had a reality check. I saw that technology and science is going forward fast (despite of how diffcult you say they are), but the society is still primitive and not evolving. So obviously, someone must go and study this administration, sociology and psychology to understand the people and be able to work with them. Personal work is too small to have any impact, so I'd rather think of designing whole institutions. Because we can't handle advanced technology without having advanced ethics.
But science tells us that humans are not motivated by morals or ethics. We just want to experience pleasure and avoid pain. We're all just essentially drug addicts looking for a fix.
Suppose advanced technology could create a device that could introduce heroine or oxytocin into my system every time I was generous, loving and caring, they way you believe I should behave. Pretty soon I'd turn into a bleeding heart leftist, help everyone I saw in need and join OWS in camping out. So, would I be practicing 'advanced ethics' or am I just a junkie doing whatever I can to get my next fix? But isn't this just pretty much the way we always behave? Social pressure is like this morality drug because it controls behavior by making people feel good or bad.
The other reason people can have 'advanced ethics' is that we are essentially rats in a cage without mandatory birth control.
That would work if people would have the poor in sight. But they don't. If they ever see poor people in TV, they switch channel. They don't even want to think about poverty.
Why should I care about the poor of the world if the world is not willing to do what it takes to end it?
A fire and auto accidents are in RBE prevented by the very technology used in cars and houses. That is the only way. You can't set a non-inflammable house (with automatic fire detection and extinguishing) on fire and can't crash a car with automatic driving system, even if you're drunk as a fiddler. Unless you puke on the CPU.
Who would be motivated to create such technology if you don't reward them? Why would people worry about crashing their car or having their house go up in flames? The government gives you a new home.
As for robbery, you'd better check with sociology and criminology for causes of crime to see, if they have any basis in RBE.
Sounds like RBE would be like Soviet Communism, the government steals everything there is so there is nothing left for the regular theives to steal. Yes I can see RBE eliminating theft.
And also poor job offers.
Another byproduct of too many people chasing too few opportunities.
Yes, it's a global problem and collective responsibility.
Well when the 'globe' decides that it is a collective responsibility to do family planning, I'll give a shit.
My attitude towards work? Everyone's like that. They don't want to work, unless they're forced by economic pressure. That's because it's a shitty work. Work is the last desperate attempt to get money. .
When then how can there be universal healthcare if everyone decides that taking care of the sick is 'shitty' work?
And once we're grown, we set our own behavior, even despite of genes. Every time we take a contraception pill, we defy millions of years of evolution, Richard Dawkins says.
So you believe in free will despite all the evidence to the contrary?
I don't agree with Dawkins. As soon a ape ancestors realized that fucking produced babies, we practiced contraception of some form. Either avoiding sex for fear of pregnancy or withdrawal. If you strike out with a woman in a bar, isn't she practicing contraception the old fashioned way? So why didn't it die out in the millions of years of evolution if it works 'against our genes'? Because we're concerned about quality of offspring not just quantity. The pill is just technology to do this.
Social hormones aren't worth shit, unless there is a society and a brain socially aware enough to put on the latest fashion.
So evolution produced worthless shit? Are all hormones shit because they make us do things that have nothing to do with being 'socially aware'?
Every scientist would facepalm at the sign of your understanding of the subject. You only say it all to look like a tough guy. Maybe didn't have enough love in childhood.
Maybe my parents were cockroaches.
Only scientists with a political agenda would facepalm. I've have or I can give evidence for all the claims I've made. If I'm wrong about something, I want evidence to show I'm wrong. The RBE disciples on the other hand don't try to create a living laboratory to silence the critics.
In the society you want, you replace money with social acceptance, which becomes the carrot and stick. You say this because you don't have evidence, so I'm supposed to come around to your ways out of social shame. Isn't that how it works in an RBE society?
Looks like genetic fallacy. Nervous system is an universal problem-solving machine, doesn't matter what built it.
You just told us that insects can't love, but humans and higher mammals can. So isn't this a function of the genetic difference?
The nervous system is not just something that can solve problems. The algorithm that it runs is get pleasure and avoid pain, built for to induce or avoid behaviors that have enhanced survival.
The urges to survive and to procreate are different. And our society can override them both. Your country needs you. Philip Morris.
So who is the blind believer here?
Again I disagree, narcotic addition works because it simulates the sensations than have been normally associated with beneficial behaviors, in this case sex. It stimulates the brain's pleasure centers similarly to orgasm. I don't know where you get this bad scientific information, but I can show you tons of evidence that narcotics simulate sexual pleasure sensations. That is why they are so highly addictive.
A baby-coach costs 200 dollars, a condom only 2 dollars.
But you want a society where there both free, so why not have the baby and try to make me pay for it?
Playing the conspiracy card? Have you ever seen any statistics on distribution of wealth? Just the good old "global village" model? That's the first thing they tell you at a demographics class.
Well I believe the income gap would end if we made the reforms I want to do.
In your system, I agree there will be an even distribution of wealth. Everyone will have nothing.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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Luminon wrote:Could you please elaborate? What modifications to capitalism? That might be something good.
I agree with the OWS that lending money that depends on garnishment of one's future labor should be made illegal. The student loans, mortgages and payday advance loans that keep the working man in debt just are not working out for anyone. Ownership of natural resources which require not labor to create should be banned.
But a lot of people get rich from government money. The leftist insist on programs like medicare, they money ends up in pockets of big pharmacy or billionaires like Ross Perot. We need a system where money is only transferred for necessary labor or wise investments. Taxation facilitates a money for nothing economy.
Luminon wrote:Government should decide by the opinions of experts. Academies and chambers must provide the opinion and politicians the decision. Ultimately, politicians should just organize the process, if they haven't got the brains for understanding the issues.
This is where your theory of human behavior fails you. People need a big carrot and a big stick to motivate them to do a good job. What is to motivate these 'experts' to do a good job? The problem is the 'experts' have no skin in the game.
Good investment require good do diligence. So if a government official isn't going to lose money or lose his job when an investment goes bad, why should he bother with doing the hard work to find out if the people he gives money or in the case of RBE resources is a good idea. That's why are schools are failing, no one loses their job or their pension when they do. Solyndra was a bad investment, but does any of the 'experts' lose their job and pension over it? No.
Luminon wrote:Also, a politician's bank account and property list should be published online mandatorily.
And societies need to dump the archaic idea of needing a leader. Be a leader of your own life. Politicians need to be public servants that can be fired when they screw up.
Luminon wrote:Not exactly. Programming was my childhood dream, so I spent 5 years making games. But then I saw pointers and memory allocation in C++ and also, that there is way too many programmers, but very few sensible people. I had a reality check. I saw that technology and science is going forward fast (despite of how diffcult you say they are), but the society is still primitive and not evolving. So obviously, someone must go and study this administration, sociology and psychology to understand the people and be able to work with them. Personal work is too small to have any impact, so I'd rather think of designing whole institutions. Because we can't handle advanced technology without having advanced ethics.
But science tells us that humans are not motivated by morals or ethics. We just want to experience pleasure and avoid pain. We're all just essentially drug addicts looking for a fix.
Suppose advanced technology could create a device that could introduce heroine or oxytocin into my system every time I was generous, loving and caring, they way you believe I should behave. Pretty soon I'd turn into a bleeding heart leftist, help everyone I saw in need and join OWS in camping out. So, would I be practicing 'advanced ethics' or am I just a junkie doing whatever I can to get my next fix? But isn't this just pretty much the way we always behave? Social pressure is like this morality drug because it controls behavior by making people feel good or bad.
The other reason people can have 'advanced ethics' is that we are essentially rats in a cage without mandatory birth control.
Luminon wrote:That would work if people would have the poor in sight. But they don't. If they ever see poor people in TV, they switch channel. They don't even want to think about poverty.
Why should I care about the poor of the world if the world is not willing to do what it takes to end it?
Luminon wrote:A fire and auto accidents are in RBE prevented by the very technology used in cars and houses. That is the only way. You can't set a non-inflammable house (with automatic fire detection and extinguishing) on fire and can't crash a car with automatic driving system, even if you're drunk as a fiddler. Unless you puke on the CPU.
Who would be motivated to create such technology if you don't reward them? Why would people worry about crashing their car or having their house go up in flames? The government gives you a new home.
Luminon wrote:
As for robbery, you'd better check with sociology and criminology for causes of crime to see, if they have any basis in RBE.Sounds like RBE would be like Soviet Communism, the government steals everything there is so there is nothing left for the regular theives to steal. Yes I can see RBE eliminating theft.
Luminon wrote:And also poor job offers.Another byproduct of too many people chasing too few opportunities.
Luminon wrote:Yes, it's a global problem and collective responsibility.Well when the 'globe' decides that it is a collective responsibility to do family planning, I'll give a shit.
Luminon wrote:My attitude towards work? Everyone's like that. They don't want to work, unless they're forced by economic pressure. That's because it's a shitty work. Work is the last desperate attempt to get money. .
When then how can there be universal healthcare if everyone decides that taking care of the sick is 'shitty' work?
Luminon wrote:And once we're grown, we set our own behavior, even despite of genes. Every time we take a contraception pill, we defy millions of years of evolution, Richard Dawkins says.
So you believe in free will despite all the evidence to the contrary?
I don't agree with Dawkins. As soon a ape ancestors realized that fucking produced babies, we practiced contraception of some form. Either avoiding sex for fear of pregnancy or withdrawal. If you strike out with a woman in a bar, isn't she practicing contraception the old fashioned way? So why didn't it die out in the millions of years of evolution if it works 'against our genes'? Because we're concerned about quality of offspring not just quantity. The pill is just technology to do this.
Luminon wrote:Social hormones aren't worth shit, unless there is a society and a brain socially aware enough to put on the latest fashion.
So evolution produced worthless shit? Are all hormones shit because they make us do things that have nothing to do with being 'socially aware'?
Luminon wrote:Every scientist would facepalm at the sign of your understanding of the subject. You only say it all to look like a tough guy. Maybe didn't have enough love in childhood.
Maybe my parents were cockroaches.
Only scientists with a political agenda would facepalm. I've have or I can give evidence for all the claims I've made. If I'm wrong about something, I want evidence to show I'm wrong. The RBE disciples on the other hand don't try to create a living laboratory to silence the critics.
In the society you want, you replace money with social acceptance, which becomes the carrot and stick. You say this because you don't have evidence, so I'm supposed to come around to your ways out of social shame. Isn't that how it works in an RBE society?
Luminon wrote:Looks like genetic fallacy. Nervous system is an universal problem-solving machine, doesn't matter what built it.
You just told us that insects can't love, but humans and higher mammals can. So isn't this a function of the genetic difference?
The nervous system is not just something that can solve problems. The algorithm that it runs is get pleasure and avoid pain, built for to induce or avoid behaviors that have enhanced survival.
Luminon wrote:The urges to survive and to procreate are different. And our society can override them both. Your country needs you. Philip Morris.
So who is the blind believer here?Again I disagree, narcotic addition works because it simulates the sensations than have been normally associated with beneficial behaviors, in this case sex. It stimulates the brain's pleasure centers similarly to orgasm. I don't know where you get this bad scientific information, but I can show you tons of evidence that narcotics simulate sexual pleasure sensations. That is why they are so highly addictive.
Luminon wrote:A baby-coach costs 200 dollars, a condom only 2 dollars.
But you want a society where there both free, so why not have the baby and try to make me pay for it?
Luminon wrote:Playing the conspiracy card? Have you ever seen any statistics on distribution of wealth? Just the good old "global village" model? That's the first thing they tell you at a demographics class.
Well I believe the income gap would end if we made the reforms I want to do.
In your system, I agree there will be an even distribution of wealth. Everyone will have nothing.
Some people DONT need carrots or want anything more than what they need, some of us are not greedy and merely want a roof over our head and food on the table and the ability to see a doctor without going broke. I also don't need a "stick" threats, to motivate me. Your view is as archaic and simplistic.
Stalin's nanny state didn't work, and Ayan Rand's "let them eat cake" doesn't work. People have different motivations and different desires. THAT is what you seem to miss. I didn't respond well to people throwing me in the deep end, whatever the issue, not jobs, but my parents and school. I HATED it when my dad or mom simply said "do it or else" when all I wanted was clarification as to why I was doing it
ANY SOLUTION has to take into account range and differences. Nothing is black and white. Some people's motivations to work have NOTHING to do with money. You cant treat humans as if they can be bought like furniture. And it is sick to starve someone to death merely because of their class.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I agree with the OWS that lending money that depends on garnishment of one's future labor should be made illegal. The student loans, mortgages and payday advance loans that keep the working man in debt just are not working out for anyone. Ownership of natural resources which require not labor to create should be banned.
But a lot of people get rich from government money. The leftist insist on programs like medicare, they money ends up in pockets of big pharmacy or billionaires like Ross Perot. We need a system where money is only transferred for necessary labor or wise investments. Taxation facilitates a money for nothing economy.
This is where your theory of human behavior fails you. People need a big carrot and a big stick to motivate them to do a good job. What is to motivate these 'experts' to do a good job? The problem is the 'experts' have no skin in the game.
Good investment require good do diligence. So if a government official isn't going to lose money or lose his job when an investment goes bad, why should he bother with doing the hard work to find out if the people he gives money or in the case of RBE resources is a good idea. That's why are schools are failing, no one loses their job or their pension when they do. Solyndra was a bad investment, but does any of the 'experts' lose their job and pension over it? No.
And societies need to dump the archaic idea of needing a leader. Be a leader of your own life. Politicians need to be public servants that can be fired when they screw up.
I just mentioned the mandatory public bank accounts because some jobs can't be automatized. So the trick is to create a trustworthy person, one who knows that all the village is looking at what he's spending.
But science tells us that humans are not motivated by morals or ethics. We just want to experience pleasure and avoid pain. We're all just essentially drug addicts looking for a fix.Suppose advanced technology could create a device that could introduce heroine or oxytocin into my system every time I was generous, loving and caring, they way you believe I should behave. Pretty soon I'd turn into a bleeding heart leftist, help everyone I saw in need and join OWS in camping out. So, would I be practicing 'advanced ethics' or am I just a junkie doing whatever I can to get my next fix? But isn't this just pretty much the way we always behave? Social pressure is like this morality drug because it controls behavior by making people feel good or bad.
I can dismiss your arguments as incoherent just by using logic and common knowledge:
Our daily lives are not special, they do not give us many strong stimuli in form of pleasure or pain. This is why we react to pleasure or pain so strongly, it's a relatively rare thing. If they would be more common, people would adjust, they would increase their tolerance. We see it when junkies or terminally ill patients need to increase their doses of opiates. Also, when soldiers return home they feel absolutely unmotivated by the ordinary life, because they get used to much higher levels of adrenaline. They get this attitude of "when the life is not at stake, nothing is at stake".
So the question is, what are our brains doing in the majority of time, when they're not prodded by pain nor pleased by endorphines? THEY fucking LIVE. Vast majority of people avoid extremes of pleasure and pain! They enjoy the small and simple joys of life, because they are sensitive, perceptive and socially aware enough for that. People who alternate between strong pleasure and pain are either low on social scale, mentally unstable or extravagant artists.
Why should I care about the poor of the world if the world is not willing to do what it takes to end it?
Who would be motivated to create such technology if you don't reward them? Why would people worry about crashing their car or having their house go up in flames? The government gives you a new home.
Sounds like RBE would be like Soviet Communism, the government steals everything there is so there is nothing left for the regular theives to steal. Yes I can see RBE eliminating theft.
But this was really nothing compared to the stealing when the capitalism came. Whole factories, funds, institutions and army storages disappeared, plus billions of whatever currency you can imagine.
RBE is different in the aspect, that people aren't motivated to steal or accumulate anything. If you know there will be another meal at the right time, you've got no reason to snatch the potatoes from table into your pockets. If you can borrow anything from a distribution center and when your room's too cluttered you can return it back, (by automatic delivery service) there is no reason to keep stuff. You can't sell it anyway, without money.
Also, RBE is based on scientific solutions. Soviet Communism was based on unproven ideology of Marx and Engels. And capitalism is based on equally absurd ideology of equal and free market for everyone and that growth can be sustained forever.
Well when the 'globe' decides that it is a collective responsibility to do family planning, I'll give a shit.
When then how can there be universal healthcare if everyone decides that taking care of the sick is 'shitty' work?
So you believe in free will despite all the evidence to the contrary?
I don't agree with Dawkins. As soon a ape ancestors realized that fucking produced babies, we practiced contraception of some form. Either avoiding sex for fear of pregnancy or withdrawal. If you strike out with a woman in a bar, isn't she practicing contraception the old fashioned way? So why didn't it die out in the millions of years of evolution if it works 'against our genes'? Because we're concerned about quality of offspring not just quantity. The pill is just technology to do this.
Luminon wrote:So evolution produced worthless shit? Are all hormones shit because they make us do things that have nothing to do with being 'socially aware'?Social hormones aren't worth shit, unless there is a society and a brain socially aware enough to put on the latest fashion.
You can not explain the complexity of human behavior by genes and hormones. That is, as Brian says, archaic and simplistic.
Maybe my parents were cockroaches.Only scientists with a political agenda would facepalm. I've have or I can give evidence for all the claims I've made. If I'm wrong about something, I want evidence to show I'm wrong. The RBE disciples on the other hand don't try to create a living laboratory to silence the critics.
In the society you want, you replace money with social acceptance, which becomes the carrot and stick. You say this because you don't have evidence, so I'm supposed to come around to your ways out of social shame. Isn't that how it works in an RBE society?
As for the carrot and stick, again, archaic and simplistic.
Luminon wrote:Looks like genetic fallacy. Nervous system is an universal problem-solving machine, doesn't matter what built it.
You just told us that insects can't love, but humans and higher mammals can. So isn't this a function of the genetic difference?
The nervous system is not just something that can solve problems. The algorithm that it runs is get pleasure and avoid pain, built for to induce or avoid behaviors that have enhanced survival.
When something flies to my eye and I close the eye sooner than I realize it, that's the rare moment of nerve system taking care of my survival. Otherwise there is really no need most of the time.
Luminon wrote:The urges to survive and to procreate are different. And our society can override them both. Your country needs you. Philip Morris.
So who is the blind believer here?Again I disagree, narcotic addition works because it simulates the sensations than have been normally associated with beneficial behaviors, in this case sex. It stimulates the brain's pleasure centers similarly to orgasm. I don't know where you get this bad scientific information, but I can show you tons of evidence that narcotics simulate sexual pleasure sensations. That is why they are so highly addictive.
Luminon wrote:A baby-coach costs 200 dollars, a condom only 2 dollars.
But you want a society where there both free, so why not have the baby and try to make me pay for it?
As long as you're healthy and satisfied, mind rules over body. With nerds it's all the time, the dictature of the brain. Cerebral prison, that is. Oh, what would I do to release the primitive wild beast in me! The physical reflexes, emotional reactions, it's such a precious and fragile thing under the burden of intellect.
Well I believe the income gap would end if we made the reforms I want to do.In your system, I agree there will be an even distribution of wealth. Everyone will have nothing.
But seriously, why everyone should have nothing? In RBE the production processes will be so automatized and sophisticated, that people would actually have more goods and services available than today. I mean, meaningful goods and services. Today's consumer society overwhelms us with meaningless choices, we have, for example dozens of car brands of exactly the same cathegory and function and we try to sell them to each other. That is a waste and it is a reason why in RBE we will be all more economically secure. What about one electric, silent car-like vehicle rules them all? What about one personal computer that sums up all personal computer uses and is compatible, modular, updateable, repairable and recyclable? What about one raw material for clothes, customizable on the printer with whatever design you want?
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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What gets me is on another site I get the other extreme from a poster who is the mirror opposite of Beyond.
They rightfully rail against greed. But their solutions are just as absurd and utopian as "Let them eat cake"
Evolution will always have individuals who seek to become the alpha male, you will never change that. Whatever the reason is. It could be for political, or religious, or private business reasons. There will always be people who want more than you do.
THAT does not mean that has to be the only thing important. Equally important in our evolution is the compassion we are capable of. Equally diverse are our motivations for doing what they do.
THE KEY is to treat life as a range and not an absolute. Which is why I don't speak in terms of motivations, but in terms of monopolies which both sides seem to miss. If you keep the gap low, but still allow it, and you prevent monopolies there will be more people to benefit from that range. What you cannot do is have wealth be the only goal, or expect everyone to live off the same amount.
The poor should not have all the power, nor the middle class, nor the rich. GAP is the problem, monopolies are the problem, not someone's personal desires.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Well, taxation facilitates pretty much anything. Without taxation, the money will not recirculate enough for the economic needs. If we can't have taxes, we're better off with RBE anyway.
Taxation is unsustainable over time, our country and Europe are demonstrating this. Every year more 'needs' that are met by government and less revenue to pay for it.
Read what Brian wrote. He's right.
For both of you your big stick is social shame. You only prove that big carrots and big sticks are the only motivators. The problem is this is a motivator for you, but not for the 'greedy' types.
To me Solyndra seems more like a case of asset stripping than a random failure... It certainly would be in my country.
Way to avoid the question. How are 'experts' going to be highly motivated to do a good job with investing public resources if they have no skin in the game?
The Venture Capitalists in silicon valley studies Solyndra and said no. We all know what greedy bastards they are so if it was a good investment they would have done so. So why did the government 'experts' decide Solyndra was a good investment? Is there another conclusion besides 'they had no skin in the game'?
Yep, pretty much. I heard there is an Indian town in central America where it works like that. They've got a big board next to the road to the city which says: "Here people rule and politicians obey"
Maybe I should move there.
Let's imagine for a moment that the burden of proof is on YOUR side. (which it probably is) Can you provide any scientific sources for your claims? Where did you get that opinion, in the first place?
I think your understanding of what really motivates people has to start with the brain.
http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_03/i_03_cr/i_03_cr_par/i_03_cr_par.html
Motivation and learning behaviors is all about neurotransmitters providing stimulation of the nucleus accumbens. When electrodes are attached to stimulate the pleasure center, all animals and humans will prefer this activity over any other including sex, food, etc... This demonstrates that we are not motivated by some ethical standard by only by pleasure and pain. Social hormones that produce pleasure and pain to make us social animals.
http://carterlab.ucdavis.edu/courses/psc261/gingrich_liu_etal_BN2000.pdf
When people give to charity, their nucleus accumbens is stimulated:
http://www.brainybehavior.com/blog/2007/06/the-charitable-accumbens/
We know the same thing happens with narcotics like nicotine and cocaine:
So ethical behavior is not about rational altruism, it is about being a junkie getting a fix. This all makes sense because we know we don't have free will.
Our daily lives are not special, they do not give us many strong stimuli in form of pleasure or pain. This is why we react to pleasure or pain so strongly, it's a relatively rare thing.
I think it's all relative. As a middle class American, you don't normally experience the extremes. You're a chemical being so your urges are driven by chemicals. Your motivations are all about pleasure and pain, you don't have any other choice in the matter. That is why I think there is no ethics or morals, it's only how you play the game to feel good and not bad for yourself. But it depends on how your wire, you for example would get more NA stimulation seeing the poor helped out than I would. I would get more stimulation from seeing a world that is logical and everyone can take care of themselves. It's just how we are wired.
So all this being druged up can lead to irrational beliefs. Conservatives consider the leftist to have a mental disorder and visa versa. Only scientific evidence from objective experiments and observations can clear up political conflicts.
So the question is, what are our brains doing in the majority of time, when they're not prodded by pain nor pleased by endorphines? THEY fucking LIVE. Vast majority of people avoid extremes of pleasure and pain! They enjoy the small and simple joys of life, because they are sensitive, perceptive and socially aware enough for that.
Obviously we always want to avoid the pain. People avoid the extremes of pleasure because of the risk. Our society is highly sexually repressed and drug repressed because of the downside. Hoarding is a strategy to avoid potential pain. Why not view it as a natural phenomena rather than a 'moral' failing?
People who alternate between strong pleasure and pain are either low on social scale, mentally unstable or extravagant artists.
What? Where is the evidence for this?
When the reward centers in the brain are damaged, people loose all motivation. When you loose motivation, you can't be successful at anything. The opposite is true, pleasure and pain are the source of passion for things like art and social status.
I must care for the world now.
But your 'caring' is all about you getting high. It's not about something that actually works to make more pleasure/less suffering.
Sometimes we must do the first step, we're the only people we've got control over.
Harmonious relationships have to be a contract of equivalent contributions to the common good. I'll support the poor of the world when they agree to mandatory family planning.
C'mon, healthcare isn't that bad.
The why are the OWS folk complaining about there are no jobs when there are pleanty of jobs in healthcare? They don't want to do this work, so they prove that we need money to motivate people to do shitty jobs.
You can not explain the complexity of human behavior by genes and hormones. That is, as Brian says, archaic and simplistic.
I don't exclusively explain behavior with genes and hormones. Of course environment plays a role in creating behavior patterns. But you seem to believe somehow we are 'spiritual' entities motivated by some magical force other than pleasure and pain. Pavlov's dogs could have been programmed to respond to bell or a whistle, but you still got correlate the stimulant to pleasure and pain.
I already gave you a link on the motivation theory by Abraham Maslow himself. Hell, I violated the copyright law to do that. You're free to download it, read it, and examine all the links, sources and quotations in it.
I don't disagree with Maslow. I disagree with your conclusion that this means someone should put a gun to my head and make me pay for people that can't or won't become self sufficient and that refuse to use birth control.
All your doing is saying it's not fair that I'm at the middle or top of the pyramid while others are below the bottom, so we should all be at the bottom or below.
As for the carrot and stick, again, archaic and simplistic.
By calling it 'archaic and simplistic', you are whipping out your stick of social shame. I'm supposed to feel bad now and agree with you.
RBE is replacing money with social reward or shame as the carrot and stick. Am I right? I disagree that this would work.
I've sent you the links on how motivation works. What don't you get?
Another example, a sense of duty can override the self-preservation instinct. Remember the 'Nam.
But you're creating a reward for 'heros' and those that act 'unselfishly'. So their 'noble' behavior stimulates their pleasure centers just like a crack addict. Patting people on the back for a 'Sense of Duty' is a social reward just like feeding Pavlov's dogs.
So, finally you see it! That's the goal! Why shoud we "have" anything, beyond the things we need?
Who is to define what I need? Maslow showed that human needs are a pyramid, so if I want to move up the pyramid why can't I? Why must I be forced to take care of people that are content at the bottom?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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What gets me is on another site I get the other extreme from a poster who is the mirror opposite of Beyond.
They rightfully rail against greed. But their solutions are just as absurd and utopian as "Let them eat cake"
Evolution will always have individuals who seek to become the alpha male, you will never change that. Whatever the reason is. It could be for political, or religious, or private business reasons. There will always be people who want more than you do.
THAT does not mean that has to be the only thing important. Equally important in our evolution is the compassion we are capable of. Equally diverse are our motivations for doing what they do.
THE KEY is to treat life as a range and not an absolute. Which is why I don't speak in terms of motivations, but in terms of monopolies which both sides seem to miss. If you keep the gap low, but still allow it, and you prevent monopolies there will be more people to benefit from that range. What you cannot do is have wealth be the only goal, or expect everyone to live off the same amount.
The poor should not have all the power, nor the middle class, nor the rich. GAP is the problem, monopolies are the problem, not someone's personal desires.
Very astutely said but with a slight modification: recessions eat rationality alive. There are too many "personal desires" at stake for it not to. The "monopolies" you seem to speak of, are most certainly keeping a score card of the situation at Wallstreet, and I believe they will present it during the next US election. Stacking the deck with another group's actions (propaganda) have happened far too often to count, but I believe the important thing is how will we, as a nation, respond to this? More propaganda?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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Taxation is unsustainable over time, our country and Europe are demonstrating this. Every year more 'needs' that are met by government and less revenue to pay for it.
I agree with the OWS that lending money that depends on garnishment of one's future labor should be made illegal. The student loans, mortgages and payday advance loans that keep the working man in debt just are not working out for anyone. Ownership of natural resources which require not labor to create should be banned.
All money is debt, debt is legalized as a currency. If people won't borrow money, there will be no money. But sure as hell there will be a global financial breakdown. The government is all totally in debt to banks and will spend the tax money as bankers say, as Mr Obama demonstrated.
In case you wondered why Joker in the movie Dark Knight burned a few tons of dollar bills. He had more sense than our economists and politicians combined.
For both of you your big stick is social shame. You only prove that big carrots and big sticks are the only motivators. The problem is this is a motivator for you, but not for the 'greedy' types.
You can imagine the carrot and the stick as boundaries. In the middle class, people try to stay in the middle or average and avoid the boundaries, because in the middle they have most friends. Getting too low would obviously be bad and aiming too high would bring them lots of envy or just make others think that they think they're something special. Typically, when a middle class family wins a lot of money in lottery, it may destroy their relationship with neighbours.
There is a still higher class, where the motivation is a personal achievement.
All in all, what you describe is actually a minority, not a norm.
Way to avoid the question. How are 'experts' going to be highly motivated to do a good job with investing public resources if they have no skin in the game?The Venture Capitalists in silicon valley studies Solyndra and said no. We all know what greedy bastards they are so if it was a good investment they would have done so. So why did the government 'experts' decide Solyndra was a good investment? Is there another conclusion besides 'they had no skin in the game'?
The only thing that comes to my mind is corruptions, someone might buy these experts. And in my country, such "experts" often enough continue in their work undisturbed.
I think your understanding of what really motivates people has to start with the brain.http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_03/i_03_cr/i_03_cr_par/i_03_cr_par.html
Motivation and learning behaviors is all about neurotransmitters providing stimulation of the nucleus accumbens. When electrodes are attached to stimulate the pleasure center, all animals and humans will prefer this activity over any other including sex, food, etc... This demonstrates that we are not motivated by some ethical standard by only by pleasure and pain. Social hormones that produce pleasure and pain to make us social animals.
http://carterlab.ucdavis.edu/courses/psc261/gingrich_liu_etal_BN2000.pdf
When people give to charity, their nucleus accumbens is stimulated:
http://www.brainybehavior.com/blog/2007/06/the-charitable-accumbens/
We know the same thing happens with narcotics like nicotine and cocaine:
So ethical behavior is not about rational altruism, it is about being a junkie getting a fix. This all makes sense because we know we don't have free will.
Unlike you probably think, I do not deny the power of neurotransmitters, electrodes and drugs. But under normal (non-extreme) circumstances these are only means and effects, NOT causes. Brain secretes these substances as a response to external events AND our thoughts and emotions.
The first study describes the function of chemicals and primitive brain centers, which is DUH (implicit). The second study is on voles, which leaves out the influence of human motivations, which is very significant. The third article is about externally added oxytocin, which has no relevance for the society. The fourth article describes, that nucleus acumbens is activated in very many pleasurable activities. So WE choose the particular activity, the nucleus acumbens does not care, as long as it is pleasant. Stimulation of nucleus acumbens will not make us choose a particular charity organization or recreation activity out of many.
As for cocaine, that's another form of direct stimulation, which totally overrides the usual brain activity and therefore tells us nothing about motivations of our behavior.
You have mistaken effects for causes. The primitive parts of brain control release of drugs and neurotransmitters, but the modern, conscious parts of brain determine when and how. They contain our personality, intellect and idea of our culture and these are the deciding factors of our motivation. This modern brain of ours is in charge, as long as the conditions are not extreme. Only primitive people do not have a sufficient control over the primitive brain centers and their motivation is therefore different. They are, however, in minority.
I think it's all relative. As a middle class American, you don't normally experience the extremes. You're a chemical being so your urges are driven by chemicals. Your motivations are all about pleasure and pain, you don't have any other choice in the matter. That is why I think there is no ethics or morals, it's only how you play the game to feel good and not bad for yourself. But it depends on how your wire, you for example would get more NA stimulation seeing the poor helped out than I would. I would get more stimulation from seeing a world that is logical and everyone can take care of themselves. It's just how we are wired.
Yes, we can be motivated by pleasure and pain, not always, but for the sake of simplicity let's say so. So as you say, we have no choice, we will always want pleasure and avoid pain.
But we do have a choice! We have a choice of how we will bring about the pleasure and how will we avoid the pain. Both pleasure and pain are non-specific, they do not care how we create one or how we avoid the other. So we created quite an elaborate culture around them. And that is an important point.
By becoming better at the complex game of culture, we evolved our big frontal brain. This brain is a new force in the world of pain and pleasure. As long as the circumstances are favorable, it has the power to simulate the world, so we see it as we think it is, not as it really is. This is how the primitive centers are fooled (unless the reality hits us hard) and they make us feel pleasure and pain according to this imaginary model of reality.
This is why primitive savages do not think much over survival or diplomacy, better if it's us than them and sex is pretty straightforward. But a man or woman of our modern culture can suffer elaborately over subtle nuances of love, etiquette and duty, or even commit a suicide. Similarly we can experience pleasure out of the obscure artistic impressions and other cultural gimmicks.
So all this being druged up can lead to irrational beliefs. Conservatives consider the leftist to have a mental disorder and visa versa. Only scientific evidence from objective experiments and observations can clear up political conflicts.
The cause of problem in religion and politiis a distorted thought model of reality that these people have. This is why the chemicals excrete as they should, but for wrong reasons. And it is a function of intellect and emotional attachment, not of pleasure and pain.
Obviously we always want to avoid the pain. People avoid the extremes of pleasure because of the risk. Our society is highly sexually repressed and drug repressed because of the downside. Hoarding is a strategy to avoid potential pain. Why not view it as a natural phenomena rather than a 'moral' failing?
Yes, it is all a natural phenomenon, but calling it natural is DUH. It's too implicit and imprecise. We have this elaborate terminology to distinguish chemistry, biology, sociology and psychology, to get ideas across precisely. Morality is, for example, a term from psychology. Psychology is a layer of abstraction, that does not correspond exactly to biology, this is why it is a separate field. Each successive field is characteristic by many more modes of interaction than the previous one. We can go deeper and compare the two, but to equate them would be just silly.
Luminon wrote:What? Where is the evidence for this?People who alternate between strong pleasure and pain are either low on social scale, mentally unstable or extravagant artists.
When the reward centers in the brain are damaged, people loose all motivation. When you loose motivation, you can't be successful at anything. The opposite is true, pleasure and pain are the source of passion for things like art and social status.
Plus there is of course an exception for creativity. Creativity is not about effort, it's mainly about inspiration. You can't create a good art without inspiration, no matter how much you want to.
But your 'caring' is all about you getting high. It's not about something that actually works to make more pleasure/less suffering.
Harmonious relationships have to be a contract of equivalent contributions to the common good. I'll support the poor of the world when they agree to mandatory family planning.
The why are the OWS folk complaining about there are no jobs when there are pleanty of jobs in healthcare? They don't want to do this work, so they prove that we need money to motivate people to do shitty jobs.
I don't exclusively explain behavior with genes and hormones. Of course environment plays a role in creating behavior patterns. But you seem to believe somehow we are 'spiritual' entities motivated by some magical force other than pleasure and pain. Pavlov's dogs could have been programmed to respond to bell or a whistle, but you still got correlate the stimulant to pleasure and pain.
I may believe we are spiritual entities, but that is not the point, my notion of a spiritual entity is just another layer over personality. Freud described three distinct persons in us, the id, ego and superego. In my experience, there is one more layer, the "spiritual" one, but in most of people it does not show at all.
When most of people talk about spirituality, they mean their emotions. If I may be blunt, most of people do not even use the intellect, unless they work. And the "spirit" is even above the intellect. No wonder this side of ourselves manifests so little in our lives. No wonder it is so little understood. There probably are just several million people in the world who could serve as subject for such a study.
I don't disagree with Maslow. I disagree with your conclusion that this means someone should put a gun to my head and make me pay for people that can't or won't become self sufficient and that refuse to use birth control.All your doing is saying it's not fair that I'm at the middle or top of the pyramid while others are below the bottom, so we should all be at the bottom or below.
By calling it 'archaic and simplistic', you are whipping out your stick of social shame. I'm supposed to feel bad now and agree with you.RBE is replacing money with social reward or shame as the carrot and stick. Am I right? I disagree that this would work.
I've sent you the links on how motivation works. What don't you get?
But you're creating a reward for 'heros' and those that act 'unselfishly'. So their 'noble' behavior stimulates their pleasure centers just like a crack addict. Patting people on the back for a 'Sense of Duty' is a social reward just like feeding Pavlov's dogs.
Who is to define what I need? Maslow showed that human needs are a pyramid, so if I want to move up the pyramid why can't I? Why must I be forced to take care of people that are content at the bottom?
As for the pyramid of needs, you can move up. But if those above do not help those below, then ascending is more diffcult for everyone, including you. Secondly, even if you ascend on the pyramid because you're an exceptional person, you will be very lonely. Exceptional people are regularly dispersed in population and they rarely meet. You'd feel like me, a great young thinker, momentarily stranded in a poor region of churches, pubs and heavy industry
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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For both of you your big stick is social shame. You only prove that big carrots and big sticks are the only motivators. The problem is this is a motivator for you, but not for the 'greedy' types.
What the heck is this supposed to mean?
There is only ONE CEO or OWNER, upper management, middle management, and the grunts. The middle management and the grunts do the bulk of the work to put the upper management and the CEO where they are at. It seems to me that YOU think the current pay gap is ok. If you do, then you SHOULD be ashamed.
Go live in Tijauana or the slums of India or work in a factory in China. THAT is where this country is headed.
So yea, my big stick is social shame, So the fuck what. Your title or paycheck don't mean you are special.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Here I would hope that this would have some impact on their professional reputation. If it didn't, I don't understand why.
The only thing that comes to my mind is corruptions, someone might buy these experts. And in my country, such "experts" often enough continue in their work undisturbed.
Why should the 'experts' care about their reputation. Even if it is shit, they government still takes care of all their needs. There is no penalty for failure, no reward for success therefore no motivation.
Unlike you probably think, I do not deny the power of neurotransmitters, electrodes and drugs. But under normal (non-extreme) circumstances these are only means and effects, NOT causes. Brain secretes these substances as a response to external events AND our thoughts and emotions.
They are part of the addiction cycle. The brain is either pre wired or learns that a certain activity with cause pleasurable sensations. So we are motivated to get our fix while avoiding pain. They are the reward or the punishment so the cause all behaviors to continue or cease in expectation. This is why when people get addicted to welfare and charity it is so hard to break the cycle. So why ever start?
The second study is on voles, which leaves out the influence of human motivations, which is very significant.
It should be obvious that there is no motivation except stimulation of the pleasure centers while avoiding pain.
The third article is about externally added oxytocin, which has no relevance for the society.
So WE choose the particular activity, the nucleus acumbens does not care, as long as it is pleasant.
We don't have free will. We 'choose' a particular activity based on exception of pleasure not pain.
Stimulation of nucleus acumbens will not make us choose a particular charity organization or recreation activity out of many.
Just like a crack addict, excessive oxytin stimulating the nucleus accumbens will cause one to choose the most immediate and strongest fix. Any with a cerebral cortex should know that there are tons of charity scams and phony beggars. But they exist to get the giver high, not to help those asking for charity.
As for cocaine, that's another form of direct stimulation, which totally overrides the usual brain activity and therefore tells us nothing about motivations of our behavior.
How is it 'direct' and others not. Cocaine acts similarly as sex. When someone is addicted to cocaine, all they are motivated to do is get more. So I think it tells us all we need to know.
You have mistaken effects for causes. The primitive parts of brain control release of drugs and neurotransmitters, but the modern, conscious parts of brain determine when and how. They contain our personality, intellect and idea of our culture and these are the deciding factors of our motivation. This modern brain of ours is in charge, as long as the conditions are not extreme. Only primitive people do not have a sufficient control over the primitive brain centers and their motivation is therefore different. They are, however, in minority.
Going back to the dogs, it is the EXPECTION of the reward that motivates. Since the reward follows the behavior, of course it can't be the cause. But the reward causes the learned behavior or addiction. So, I"m not confusion cause and effect.
When the primatve parts of the brain associated with pleasure and pain are damaged, even though people can still reason. When the cerebral cortex is damaged, it doesn't affect motivation only the ability to do things language, communication, problem solving, etc...The 'modern' parts of the brain evolved to enable us to have more complex skills and strategy, but the name of the game is still survival.
And doesn't RBE reward 'primitive' behaviors while punishing 'advanced' behaviors via wealth transfer to the 'primitive' people?
But we do have a choice! We have a choice of how we will bring about the pleasure and how will we avoid the pain. Both pleasure and pain are non-specific, they do not care how we create one or how we avoid the other.
I don't think so, try stubbing your toe and deciding it doesn't hurt like shit.
So we created quite an elaborate culture around them. And that is an important point.
By becoming better at the complex game of culture, we evolved our big frontal brain.
The name of the game is survival, not culture. The cerebral cortex made it possible to complex tasks. But the motivators are still food, sex and anything to survive. Things like social cooperation have been beneficial too our survival, so of course we get a hormone that increases human bonding and trust(oxytin). A new means of stimulating the motivation center. Language had to develop along with this.
LOL. Most of the time, our own chemicals do not drug us more than a fish is drowned by water. The neurotransmitters work orderly as small gears. If not, it is called a chemical imbalance in brain and it's diagnosed as a disease.
When you take away the dopamine, motivation is progressively lost.
The cause of problem in religion and politiis a distorted thought model of reality that these people have. This is why the chemicals excrete as they should, but for wrong reasons. And it is a function of intellect and emotional attachment, not of pleasure and pain.
If religion isn't based on activation of the pleasure and pain centers in the brain, why do they need to teach heaven and hell? They need heaven and hell because we're only motivated by carrots and sticks, expectation of pleasure or pain. So they invent a really big carrot and a really big stick and walla, you can control motivations. Politics kind of works the same way with your RBE paradise or capitalist hell. And of course we can't demonstrate RBE with evidence(aka a living laboratory) we just have to take it on faith.
As I already prove, not necessarily. I can get high on my own, without caring for anyone. It's the sense of foresight, duty and social scope, that calls me.
This 'sense' is that this is what will bring you the most pleasure. We could stick you in the MRI like the people giving to charity and see your NA light up when you are doing what 'calls you'. Same as heroine junkie feels called to shoot up.
I don't know about American healthcare, but in my healthcare the politicians stole the money on overpriced public orders and the doctors arrange mass protests for extremely long working hours and miserable pay compared to the abroad.
And in RBE, we put the politicians in charge of everything and give them all the money and resources. This is why individuals must have the power and wealth.
No, not at all! The purpose is to move up the pyramid! As high, as you want to go. The problem is, that in the present this is restricted by having or more usually not having money. So giving money to those below might help them move upwards if they have a potential to do so. Of course, usually they don't, but some of us think it's better than nothing. This is why I'm so much in favor for RBE, besides its countless advantages it removes the problem of money and scarcity, so everyone will be free to rise on the pyramid of motivation. Those who remain below, may be educated to slowly ascend as generations progress.
The problem is one can survive and procreate by just staying at the bottom. That is what evolution rewards right, not self-actualization? So without mandatory birth control, everyone stays at the bottom.
I don't know, maybe the stick of social shame is too soft on you?
I probably don't have as much natural oxytin in my system as you. I guess I need a pill to be more trusting.
you will be very lonely. Exceptional people are regularly dispersed in population and they rarely meet. You'd feel like me, a great young thinker, momentarily stranded in a poor region of churches, pubs and heavy industry
Why should being lonely necessarily feel bad? Take drugs and treatments for depression. In other words, you're stranded in a place where people just want to get a high on the legal drugs of religion or alcohol and survive. Welcome to the human race. Just a planet of 7 billion addicts.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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They are part of the addiction cycle. The brain is either pre wired or learns that a certain activity with cause pleasurable sensations. So we are motivated to get our fix while avoiding pain. They are the reward or the punishment so the cause all behaviors to continue or cease in expectation. This is why when people get addicted to welfare and charity it is so hard to break the cycle. So why ever start?
It should be obvious that there is no motivation except stimulation of the pleasure centers while avoiding pain.
Why not? We learn a lot about this by adding more or taking away. Why are so many scientists studying it's effects on trust, charity, morality, love, etc... This makes you uncomfortable because you'd like to think you do this out of reason or 'spirituality' and not because you're a junkie. Sorry but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Luminon wrote:So WE choose the particular activity, the nucleus acumbens does not care, as long as it is pleasant.We don't have free will. We 'choose' a particular activity based on exception of pleasure not pain.
Luminon wrote:Stimulation of nucleus acumbens will not make us choose a particular charity organization or recreation activity out of many.Just like a crack addict, excessive oxytin stimulating the nucleus accumbens will cause one to choose the most immediate and strongest fix. Any with a cerebral cortex should know that there are tons of charity scams and phony beggars. But they exist to get the giver high, not to help those asking for charity.
But what is the most immediate and strongest fix? We all have our individual ways. What pleases one, will put off another. This is not just individual, this applies to cultural groups of artistic taste, life style and so on. This is where the world of information meets and influences the world of biology. My argument is, that this world of culture is influential and possible to influence. It makes us human. It's not that we have this brain and hormons, it's how we use them or are potentially capable of using them.
How is it 'direct' and others not. Cocaine acts similarly as sex. When someone is addicted to cocaine, all they are motivated to do is get more. So I think it tells us all we need to know.
Going back to the dogs, it is the EXPECTION of the reward that motivates. Since the reward follows the behavior, of course it can't be the cause. But the reward causes the learned behavior or addiction. So, I"m not confusion cause and effect.When the primatve parts of the brain associated with pleasure and pain are damaged, even though people can still reason. When the cerebral cortex is damaged, it doesn't affect motivation only the ability to do things language, communication, problem solving, etc...The 'modern' parts of the brain evolved to enable us to have more complex skills and strategy, but the name of the game is still survival.
And doesn't RBE reward 'primitive' behaviors while punishing 'advanced' behaviors via wealth transfer to the 'primitive' people?
Luminon wrote:But we do have a choice! We have a choice of how we will bring about the pleasure and how will we avoid the pain. Both pleasure and pain are non-specific, they do not care how we create one or how we avoid the other.
I don't think so, try stubbing your toe and deciding it doesn't hurt like shit.
The name of the game is survival, not culture. The cerebral cortex made it possible to complex tasks. But the motivators are still food, sex and anything to survive. Things like social cooperation have been beneficial too our survival, so of course we get a hormone that increases human bonding and trust(oxytin). A new means of stimulating the motivation center. Language had to develop along with this.
When you take away the dopamine, motivation is progressively lost.
If religion isn't based on activation of the pleasure and pain centers in the brain, why do they need to teach heaven and hell? They need heaven and hell because we're only motivated by carrots and sticks, expectation of pleasure or pain. So they invent a really big carrot and a really big stick and walla, you can control motivations.
Politics kind of works the same way with your RBE paradise or capitalist hell. And of course we can't demonstrate RBE with evidence(aka a living laboratory) we just have to take it on faith.
You may argue about fundamental problems in human nature, but that has nothing to do with RBE. On the contrary, in RBE we're more likely to find and apply viable solutions, than in the current system, limited by lack of money and political will.
And in RBE, we put the politicians in charge of everything and give them all the money and resources. This is why individuals must have the power and wealth.
The problem is one can survive and procreate by just staying at the bottom. That is what evolution rewards right, not self-actualization? So without mandatory birth control, everyone stays at the bottom.
Why should being lonely necessarily feel bad? Take drugs and treatments for depression.
In other words, you're stranded in a place where people just want to get a high on the legal drugs of religion or alcohol and survive. Welcome to the human race. Just a planet of 7 billion addicts.
And the society must be designed to help people manifest their potential, so it becomes commonplace, not rare exceptions.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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Very well. So what? Do you want to explain all humanity by this piece of trivia? Good luck.
It's not trivia because it tells us that if we want to change human behavior, it has to be correlated with increase in pleasure. So it should change the approach to economics, sociology, politics, etc... Make solving the problems one of increasing the sensations of pleasure with less pain for all participants. We know what really motivates people, so engineer society around this fact.
Yes, we learn so in the lab. It's not like many people outside the lab add or remove their oxytocin on purpose. It's another piece of trivia.
They soon will. Science is treating autism with oxytocin.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/AutismNews/love-hormone-oxytocin-shows-promise-autism/story?id=9843745
Perhaps they could lower your levels so you would be less trusting that people will do the right thing.
So WE choose the particular activity, the nucleus accumbens does not care, as long as it is pleasant.
WE don't have free will. We may learn that a particular activity is pleasurable or painful and adjust our behavior accordingly. But you can't decide eating garbage is pleasant, you're not wire for this. But a rat is. So if we put you in a garbage dump your NA stimulation would be pain, the rats' would be pleasure.
Given a set of equally pleasurable activities, which one will the nucleus accumbens choose?
The NA doesn't choose. That's more in the outer brain that learns to expect if an activity is pleasurable. I think you should study voting in neural networks.
Stimulation of nucleus accumbens will not make us choose a particular charity organization or recreation activity out of many.
If you get a rush from a particular activity, you learn to expect pleasure again from similar activities. If you turn off all pleasure and pain sensations, all motivation goes away as we learn to correlate.
Crack is a very specific stimulation, with its own specific receptor. When people want crack, oxytocin will not help them. Oxytocin is non-specific, it merely produces the state of mind, but it does not care how do we get there.
Crack seem to be more like the high from orgasm. Oxytocin more like the good feels of love/social acceptance. Like a different color of pleasure.
But what is the most immediate and strongest fix? We all have our individual ways. What pleases one, will put off another. This is not just individual, this applies to cultural groups of artistic taste, life style and so on. This is where the world of information meets and influences the world of biology. My argument is, that this world of culture is influential and possible to influence. It makes us human. It's not that we have this brain and hormones, it's how we use them or are potentially capable of using them.
Eating garbage is pleasurable to a rat. People are all over the map with the correlation of activities with pleasure/pain. We don't have free will to decide any of this.
What we can do with technology is change this correlation. We already do this with mood changing drugs.
On the contrary, it tells us nothing. There is no chemical difference between a person who took cocaine voluntarily or was given it involuntarily. But there is hell of a difference between voluntary and involuntary sex.
Most people would react with anger if given Cocaine involuntarily, just as they would sex. Of course people are all over the map with pleasure and pain from sex. Orgasm can be intense pleasure and cocaine act in a similar manner.
If you want, you can call it a game of survival. That is not the question. The question is, how to switch from the primitive competitive game of survival to the new, cooperative game of survival. Because the old game actually threatens our survival.
Technology. It's changing the correlation of activities with pleasure/pain. We try to do this now with shame, money, prison. Isn't that the real purpose of money, to corellate our behaviors so with pleasure/pain? For RBE to work, you'd need to remap the present correlation.
Good question. RBE is a method of getting food on the table and erasing economic differences. Of course, any alleviation of poverty must go hand in hand with education, specially education on how to spend free time constructively and meaningfully.
No. Alleviation must go hand in hand with an increase in pleasure for all participants in society. We're not motivated by meaningfulness. We only assign meaning to things if there is a corellation pleasure/pain factor.
Yes, so what? Is it helpful to focus on food and sex as the true motive of our lives? Can we still call it survival, if it destroys Earth?
But it's how we're wired. It's like you want people to like garbage the way a rat does. You can't do this without technology. Just words ain't gonna cut it.
The problem is now we use shame, prison and most of all money to control behaviors not make them socially beneficial and not harmful. I'm just saying if you want things to get better there must be better technology than they old fashioned methods.
You seem to think change can occur with just propaganda and encouragement. I don't think so, people have to expect an advantage in the area of pleasure/pain in order to change their behaviors. I think this is the implication of being with a soul, spirit or free will. I know you like to think we can do things for noble reasons, but it just ain't so.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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It's not trivia because it tells us that if we want to change human behavior, it has to be correlated with increase in pleasure. So it should change the approach to economics, sociology, politics, etc... Make solving the problems one of increasing the sensations of pleasure with less pain for all participants. We know what really motivates people, so engineer society around this fact.
I think sensations of pain or pleasure are not the point. When people have the freedom (material security) and education to do so, they will take care of it themselves. But without freedom they can not act and without education they will misuse freedom.
Luminon wrote:Yes, we learn so in the lab. It's not like many people outside the lab add or remove their oxytocin on purpose. It's another piece of trivia.They soon will. Science is treating autism with oxytocin.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/AutismNews/love-hormone-oxytocin-shows-promise-autism/story?id=9843745
Luminon wrote:So WE choose the particular activity, the nucleus accumbens does not care, as long as it is pleasant.WE don't have free will. We may learn that a particular activity is pleasurable or painful and adjust our behavior accordingly. But you can't decide eating garbage is pleasant, you're not wire for this. But a rat is. So if we put you in a garbage dump your NA stimulation would be pain, the rats' would be pleasure.
We all do many activities every day, which are not pleasurable and some of them are painful. But we do them nonetheless. Some of it is foresight, some of it isn't. As for eating garbage, we do that too. Junk food, anyone? The taste of our modern supermakets' contents is very different to what people are used to eat in 3rd world countries. They would even hate the taste of white flour. Hell, I had a problem to live off that weird puffy bread in France, it was something between sweet foam and Christmas cake and i could just feel my vitamins sacrificing themselves to process that stuff. And I had to lie down in fevers twice on that trip.
So whatever our wiring is, it's pretty damn adaptable, too much for our own good. It can be twisted into unnatural life style, that is, life style that harms us and kills us slowly or quickly, whatever. If we'd really avoid pain and seek pleasure, we'd bring down the excuse for the world as it is today and estabilish RBE immediately. But you know how it was, with the frog in a pot of slowly warming water.
The NA doesn't choose. That's more in the outer brain that learns to expect if an activity is pleasurable. I think you should study voting in neural networks.
If you get a rush from a particular activity, you learn to expect pleasure again from similar activities. If you turn off all pleasure and pain sensations, all motivation goes away as we learn to correlate.
Eating garbage is pleasurable to a rat. People are all over the map with the correlation of activities with pleasure/pain. We don't have free will to decide any of this.What we can do with technology is change this correlation. We already do this with mood changing drugs.
Technology. It's changing the correlation of activities with pleasure/pain. We try to do this now with shame, money, prison. Isn't that the real purpose of money, to corellate our behaviors so with pleasure/pain? For RBE to work, you'd need to remap the present correlation.
No. Alleviation must go hand in hand with an increase in pleasure for all participants in society. We're not motivated by meaningfulness. We only assign meaning to things if there is a corellation pleasure/pain factor.
This is what RBE is about, intelligent distribution of resources. People don't want to gather resources, they want to gather the feeling of security. Once they have it, resources become unimportant. The pleasure wanes, it moves elsewhere. It typically moves into the area of meaning. Give people food and a couple more things and next thing they will want is meaning. We often see on believers here that life without meaning is depressive. When we have meaning, next thing we want is achievement and so it goes.
But it's how we're wired. It's like you want people to like garbage the way a rat does. You can't do this without technology. Just words ain't gonna cut it.
The problem is now we use shame, prison and most of all money to control behaviors not make them socially beneficial and not harmful. I'm just saying if you want things to get better there must be better technology than they old fashioned methods.
You seem to think change can occur with just propaganda and encouragement. I don't think so, people have to expect an advantage in the area of pleasure/pain in order to change their behaviors. I think this is the implication of being with a soul, spirit or free will. I know you like to think we can do things for noble reasons, but it just ain't so.
I don't know what clever guy say that, but it's like that saying, change comes when pain of growth becomes lesser than pain of staying as we are.
As for spirit or soul, that is a keyword usable in the science of positive psychology. Not everyone can make use of it, but it has powerful transformative properties.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/think-tanked/post/occupy-wall-streets-accomplishments-candidates-and-civics-and-more-am-briefi...
The deck has been stacked. (http://news.google.com/news/section?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=topic:occupy_wall_street&ict=clu_bl This was the first relevant link I could find in Google News)
The only thing left to do is wait for everyone (more or less) to practice some of that keen 20/20 hindsight on OWS.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
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I think sensations of pain or pleasure are not the point. When people have the freedom (material security) and education to do so, they will take care of it themselves. But without freedom they can not act and without education they will misuse freedom.
The problem is when you define things like food, shelter and healthcare human rights is that they impose obligations on others to deliver them. So if you're going to grant rights, you need to impose obligations as well. That's what wrong with RBE as you presented it, you don't talk about the obligations, just all the free stuff you get, which is the way scams work.
Yes, that is an example of limited use, irrelevant for sociology. It's not like the government will spray whole cities with oxytocin.
Why not? They already put fluoride in the water for our 'benefit'. I'm not in favor of this, just joking.
But this is just a start. If you really want change, focus on the technology like this to make it happen.
I'm working on software now that is 'active feedback learning'. Where the computer tracks your learning progress with short interactive quizzes then presents new learning material based on the students level of performance.
In an ideal system, we'd be able to measure things like mental fatigue, brain activity with sensors on the head. Then also provide pleasurable feedback for learning with stimulus of the NA. This technology isn't quite here yet but in 20 years I think so.
We all do many activities every day, which are not pleasurable and some of them are painful. But we do them nonetheless.
I think science has shown that this is just long term planning or it's really not more pleasurable than painful. You get up for work because the exception of reward in the future and fear of pain from not having money. And some people get pleasure beyond money for work. All this proves is that we can follow complex strategies to win, but the game is always maximize pleasure/minimize pain.
Some of it is foresight, some of it isn't.
Can you give an example of when an activity is not motivated by expectation of pleasure or pain.
As for eating garbage, we do that too. Junk food, anyone?
Well yes. They've removed the triggers that should make us think this is garbage. It's garbage without the unpleasant odors. So McDonalds should be an example to you of how to motivate people to do something they wouldn't normally want to do, like give their wealth away.
I wonder why this reminds me so much of office paperwork in 9-to-5 jobs.
All right. What kind of technology? What kind of correlation with pleasure/pain? And what problem is there with money in RBE, when there is no money in RBE?
Probably a combination of drugs and "franenstienish stuff". But also material rewards. Sufficient motivation, in order to get people to motivate themselves to work to provide everything society needs. And get people to give up anti-social behaviors.
The problem now is that there is not a strong correlation between benefits of a behavior and reward. People get rich trading CDOs. You can develop a useful technology or service, but then most of the reward money goes to taxes and lawyers. Taxes actually work against the correlation of beneficial behaviors and reward.
Money is the big carrot and prison is the big stick in our society. They don't work very well as far as correlation with behavior, but they are better than nothing. I think society should view these as primitive barbaric methods and evolve toward better motivators.
This can be done very easily by equitable distribution of resources. Resources for living do not have a linear value. Your first thousand bucks does you more pleasure than your hundredth thousand bucks. By spreading resources equitably we cover the area with most people satisfied/most pleasure achieved/least resources spent. A sack of potatoes given to every Somalian guy will make more joy than one poor guy sitting on a ton of them.
But the problem is you're not correlating this pleasure with any socially beneficial activity. It's fine to help the poor, but you need to put obligations like work, education, family planning in place.
Give people food and a couple more things and next thing they will want is meaning.
But the meaning they learn isn't I need to work, study, use birth control, etc... The meaning they learn is do nothing and I'll get a reward. If you just feed your dog without correlation to behavior, he never learns any tricks.
Neither would indigenous tribesmen, who prefer fresh berries and roots from the ground and living grubs, all without conservants, flavors, emulgators and artificial sweeteners.
Of course they haven't been trained. They're living as our ancestors evolved, to correlate taste with heatlh benefit. The marketers of junk food have learned to trick us.
Yes, that's one side of the issue. The other is, that present circumstances are so unbearable, that it's better to change than to do nothing.
If it's so unbearable, then maybe it's time for 'frankinsteinish' technology.
Propaganda and 'social awareness' are not going to work. They are just too weak as motivators for the vast majority. The propaganda for the status quo is also is pretty great.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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The problem is when you define things like food, shelter and healthcare human rights is that they impose obligations on others to deliver them. So if you're going to grant rights, you need to impose obligations as well. That's what wrong with RBE as you presented it, you don't talk about the obligations, just all the free stuff you get, which is the way scams work.
But I understand your point, if I think of gypsies and people like them. Such people must not get anything for free, because it spoils them. In their case there must be stricter education, focused on communal or even tribal life and manual creative activities. Shortly said, they must be kept busy, because they won't do it by themselves. The point is, such education or keeping people busy should be done deliberately, not out of necessity to keep the economy going. The needs of economy must be met of course, but unlike today, RBE does not require all education to be tied into this. And it is a good thing.
Why not? They already put fluoride in the water for our 'benefit'. I'm not in favor of this, just joking.But this is just a start. If you really want change, focus on the technology like this to make it happen.
I'm working on software now that is 'active feedback learning'. Where the computer tracks your learning progress with short interactive quizzes then presents new learning material based on the students level of performance.
In an ideal system, we'd be able to measure things like mental fatigue, brain activity with sensors on the head. Then also provide pleasurable feedback for learning with stimulus of the NA. This technology isn't quite here yet but in 20 years I think so.
Wow, that sounds interesting. Nothing much puts off a student more than reading information that the already knows. Attention lapses.
Your system might be a good way to teach people all these necessary but boring technical subjects. Good as a short-term solution. As for long-term solution, it is to implement a society-wide advanced psychological assessment of personality and talents, so people's curricula will be tailored to their interests. When people are interested by their curriculum, they become very, very good at it. Schola ludus, as my countryman said. The urge to have fun is so powerful, it is an untapped resource of learning power and it is worthy to base all system of education around it.
I think science has shown that this is just long term planning or it's really not more pleasurable than painful. You get up for work because the exception of reward in the future and fear of pain from not having money. And some people get pleasure beyond money for work. All this proves is that we can follow complex strategies to win, but the game is always maximize pleasure/minimize pain.
Can you give an example of when an activity is not motivated by expectation of pleasure or pain.
Probably a combination of drugs and "franenstienish stuff". But also material rewards. Sufficient motivation, in order to get people to motivate themselves to work to provide everything society needs. And get people to give up anti-social behaviors.The problem now is that there is not a strong correlation between benefits of a behavior and reward. People get rich trading CDOs. You can develop a useful technology or service, but then most of the reward money goes to taxes and lawyers. Taxes actually work against the correlation of beneficial behaviors and reward.
Money is the big carrot and prison is the big stick in our society. They don't work very well as far as correlation with behavior, but they are better than nothing. I think society should view these as primitive barbaric methods and evolve toward better motivators.
The problem with material rewards is, that we already have them and it causes endless consumption. As for drugs, their problem is, that people will surely obtain them and will "reward" themselves excessively pretty much as today. And next point is, as I said, human labour is obsolete. What society really needs is cybernation. Only cybernation can do things efficiently, it needs no material or narcotic motivation, which are obsolete as well. And there is no problem of money or taxes.
The only "problem" with RBE is, that it leaves people with a large amount of free time. Maybe you view that as a problem, but I see an opportunity. An opportunity equal to the one when hunters and gatherers settled down to farming, farmers built cities, cities formed states, states formed alliances and eventually United Nations.
There is an increasing evidence, that people must undergo a radical change of behavior, otherwise we will destroy ourselves. Free time is what we need to stop and think and to figure out why are we really here. And we are definitely NOT here to run the economy. The economy is here to serve us, not vice versa. It should keep us alive and well, not keep us dubiously motivated by consumerism. Entertainment and motivation must belong to other areas of society, like education, travel, volunteering and culture. That way the motivation of people will not cost us many resources. People must be primarily motivated by immaterial cultural values, not material goods.
For example, I do not use up many material items, but I have a large consumption of books, music, games, films and other cultural material copied as freely available data. And I'd be even more motivated by social relationships, should I find any. I hope you get the idea, people can be motivated and quality of life achieved without material spending.
But the problem is you're not correlating this pleasure with any socially beneficial activity. It's fine to help the poor, but you need to put obligations like work, education, family planning in place.
Motivating all classes with carrot and stick would be a mistake equal to the absurdity of Communistic dictature of proletariate, where intellectuals were forced to build bridges with their hands.
But the meaning they learn isn't I need to work, study, use birth control, etc... The meaning they learn is do nothing and I'll get a reward. If you just feed your dog without correlation to behavior, he never learns any tricks.
The purpose of motivation is manipulation of people in their and the society's best interest. The true solution is to indoctrinate people to consider work, study and birth control an integral part of their personal identity and pride. Those who will not behave by this standard will be seen as inferior or in need of psychiatric treatment. Their likelihood of procreation would be minimal.
If it's so unbearable, then maybe it's time for 'frankinsteinish' technology.Propaganda and 'social awareness' are not going to work. They are just too weak as motivators for the vast majority. The propaganda for the status quo is also is pretty great.
The reason is not just spreading of information only, there are many factors of change, economic, financial, political, military and so on... The conscious, informed realization of them is merely a spark in gunpowder barrel. The last proverbial drop for overflowing of the chalice of patience. There is no stop to the speeding up of changes. Things that took years and decades now happen in a year.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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The point of cybernation is, that we have no obligations to machines. Automatized production of food, through hydroponic vertical farms should be relatively easy to maintain. When there is abundance of food and other needs, it is nonsense to impose obligations in return for them.
But the only way for this to happen is mandatory birth control. Otherwise any gains in food production are quickly negated. That's why despite all the gains in productivity over the last 150 years, still starvation.
What kind of obligation would you want from people?
If you want a product or service, you should be willing to provide one. A big reason why we can't provide free medical for everyone now is that few are willing to provide this service. Not enough people want to study this and then work with sick people. So how does RBE motivate these providers to not just spend all their time with art are music?
Wow, that sounds interesting. Nothing much puts off a student more than reading information that the already knows. Attention lapses.
Your system might be a good way to teach people all these necessary but boring technical subjects. Good as a short-term solution. As for long-term solution, it is to implement a society-wide advanced psychological assessment of personality and talents, so people's curricula will be tailored to their interests. When people are interested by their curriculum, they become very, very good at it. Schola ludus, as my countryman said. The urge to have fun is so powerful, it is an untapped resource of learning power and it is worthy to base all system of education around it.
Engineering fun experiences and pleasure and technology for learning, these are the things that are going to make a change more toward the type of society you're looking for. I think you should abandon the route of propaganda and take up the cause of technology for the advancement of society toward something much better.
I think you may be on to something with RBE, because as you say "without money, there are no taxes". You know next to religion, I find taxation to be the most irrational concept mankind has invented. It could be something that appeals to the more conservative, libertarian types. You need have an advanced system to motivate/demotivate behavior for the overall benefit of society.
Just telling people is not enough you have to show them. Most people cling to irrational political and economic concepts just as religious adherents. They are resistant to change unless they can experience the change first. So only technology and not politics is the solution here.
I'm curious what you think of the hedonistic imperative, the abolishment of human suffering:
I suppose a society with such goals would be without money as well.
Maybe so, hard to say. The question is, whether anybody really wins. More likely it feels like postponing a defeat.
Maybe the goal should not be to win, but to maximize everyone's pleasure. So there are no winners and losers. Just a bunch of total hedonists trying to get the next high.
Uhm... what about a routine?
Isn't that just a learned behavior, based on expectation of reward. And often times when the routine becomes too unpleasurable we change. We have motivations to be lazy, to only expend energy when necessary to not be too risky. But we've also got motivators to learn and experience new things. Most of us find a compromise between the two extremes.
The problem with material rewards is, that we already have them and it causes endless consumption.
Then why not 'tax' consumption that uses natural resources? There needs to be user fee for access to material resources. This would encourage recycling and energy conservation. Instead, we tax work, tax investment and tax productivity. This is what is leading to the bankruptcy of our society. We reward socially irresponsible behaviors while punishing socially beneficial ones.
As for drugs, their problem is, that people will surely obtain them and will "reward" themselves excessively pretty much as today.
Any rewards need to be correlated with behavior. I think drugs should be legal as long as one is socially responsible. They could actually be used to benefit society as a positive motivator.
Sex works much the same way as these narcotics. It is used motivate behaviors beneficial to the providers.
The true solution is to indoctrinate people to consider work, study and birth control an integral part of their personal identity and pride. Those who will not behave by this standard will be seen as inferior or in need of psychiatric treatment. Their likelihood of procreation would be minimal.
We already do that with 'gypsies'. Many people can just ignore the social pressures. Most people are not socially concerned as you are. And what are you going to do, let their children starve?
Your view on this is biased, because you live in the economically superior part of the world. You live a sheltered life. The propaganda itself was one of factors to change or overthrow the government in series of African states, Spain and Iceland. People get increasingly agitated in many more countries, including yours.
The reason is not just spreading of information only, there are many factors of change, economic, financial, political, military and so on... The conscious, informed realization of them is merely a spark in gunpowder barrel. The last proverbial drop for overflowing of the chalice of patience. There is no stop to the speeding up of changes. Things that took years and decades now happen in a year.
No, I hardly live a sheltered life. I travel quite a bit.
Change is going to happen because of technology and not any political propaganda. If rational arguments was a way to convince people to embrace change, we'd all be convincing theists to give up their believes. But people believe what they want to believe and they usually only change when you show them something better not just tell them. So if RBE is to work, you need a living laboratory and technology to make people change their ways.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
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But the only way for this to happen is mandatory birth control. Otherwise any gains in food production are quickly negated. That's why despite all the gains in productivity over the last 150 years, still starvation.
If you want a product or service, you should be willing to provide one. A big reason why we can't provide free medical for everyone now is that few are willing to provide this service. Not enough people want to study this and then work with sick people. So how does RBE motivate these providers to not just spend all their time with art are music?
Furthermore, there is actually not that many artists and musicians. It takes talent and inspiration. Can't we just believe in the invisible hand of random genetic generator of brains, to provide people with right tendencies to do jobs in the society?
As for the original point, if food is as necessary for life as water and air, why should there be a compensation for it? (of course, given the RBE hydroponic vertical farms) And what kind of compensation?
Engineering fun experiences and pleasure and technology for learning, these are the things that are going to make a change more toward the type of society you're looking for. I think you should abandon the route of propaganda and take up the cause of technology for the advancement of society toward something much better.I think you may be on to something with RBE, because as you say "without money, there are no taxes". You know next to religion, I find taxation to be the most irrational concept mankind has invented. It could be something that appeals to the more conservative, libertarian types. You need have an advanced system to motivate/demotivate behavior for the overall benefit of society.
Just telling people is not enough you have to show them. Most people cling to irrational political and economic concepts just as religious adherents. They are resistant to change unless they can experience the change first. So only technology and not politics is the solution here.
Ethics seems to be a purely cultural thing, learned in childhood by propaganda and example and sometimes even by suffering.
I'm curious what you think of the hedonistic imperative, the abolishment of human suffering:I suppose a society with such goals would be without money as well.
So I think I can't really appreciate or understand the Hedonistic imperative. I know it's a wonderful thing for medicine and I believe that we are perfectly entitled to eliminate all physical suffering and all medical causes of mental suffering. But if anything can be done about the society to achieve that end, it must be done. What we feel must be no substitute for what we do, otherwise that it be no better than praying for hurricane victims. We all deserve chance to live actively and die with a justified feeling of achievement.
And then of course, I am concerned about my "supernatural" worldview. There is more to us that meets the eye, I have some evidence that there is at least our bodily counterpart, made probably of dark matter. 99 % of visible matter is plasma and dark matter out there probably too, but here on planetary scale it does interact with biologic organisms and underlies passively every material object. And processes that go on in our etheric double may be just as important for our health, probably more. Every occultist knows that. Something tells me that making the dense material body go out of sync with the etheric is not a good idea. There are many valuable potential abilities we may lose by careless meddling without even noticing.
Maybe the goal should not be to win, but to maximize everyone's pleasure. So there are no winners and losers. Just a bunch of total hedonists trying to get the next high.
This is a similar argument to yours. I do not want food to be paid, because it is a vital necessity like air or water. But this endless hedonistic pleasure is not a necessity. It's important how we feel inside, but it's just as important how we live. Bliss must be achieved through right living and self-realization, not just given out for free whatever we do. Most of people would not handle that, they would end up like on alcohol or TV, only worse. I think it requires a strong character and deep motivation to have some structure in life, despite of such a powerful distractions.
Luminon wrote:Uhm... what about a routine?
Isn't that just a learned behavior, based on expectation of reward. And often times when the routine becomes too unpleasurable we change. We have motivations to be lazy, to only expend energy when necessary to not be too risky. But we've also got motivators to learn and experience new things. Most of us find a compromise between the two extremes.
Another example. When someone works on taming bad dogs, he has a pack of his own dogs, well-trained and loyal to him. They warn the trainer of the bad dog's mood and also they teach the bad dog proper manners. Also, I noticed that lazy people in a group of hard workers become hard working too, just to fit in.
Then why not 'tax' consumption that uses natural resources? There needs to be user fee for access to material resources. This would encourage recycling and energy conservation. Instead, we tax work, tax investment and tax productivity. This is what is leading to the bankruptcy of our society. We reward socially irresponsible behaviors while punishing socially beneficial ones.
I think what you really mean is the "Cap & don't trade" as it was succesfully introduced elsewhere in the world. IOW, it is basically a mandatory decrease in economic activity. People are not that wasteful. Industry is. The industry creates useless things and people can't be blamed for buying them. So pretty much yes, only this tax on natural resources would apply on large production, not workers or common people.
Any rewards need to be correlated with behavior. I think drugs should be legal as long as one is socially responsible. They could actually be used to benefit society as a positive motivator.Sex works much the same way as these narcotics. It is used motivate behaviors beneficial to the providers.
We already do that with 'gypsies'. Many people can just ignore the social pressures. Most people are not socially concerned as you are. And what are you going to do, let their children starve?
I don't say social pressure will work on everyone, but on the majority.
No, I hardly live a sheltered life. I travel quite a bit.Change is going to happen because of technology and not any political propaganda. If rational arguments was a way to convince people to embrace change, we'd all be convincing theists to give up their believes. But people believe what they want to believe and they usually only change when you show them something better not just tell them. So if RBE is to work, you need a living laboratory and technology to make people change their ways.
In RBE politics will disappear, or in a sense, it will step onto a whole new level. Spewing endless laws, budgets and scandals will be replaced by positive cultural inspiration through personal example. Such a non-decadent equivalent of celebrity cult, I'd say.
So as for the technology, it might not work as you imagine. Here's why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk8x3V-sUgU&feature=related
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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What happens now is our currency is overvalued based on the trade deficit, mainly because foreigners buy our debt. This is continuing to make it difficult to sell what we make overseas and flooding our markets with cheap Chineese imports. The currency manipulation by all governments needs to stop, it could only happen by getting rid of money produced from nothing by the Fed and central banks.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
THAT is exactly what Beyond doesn't get. Under different conditions the things he likes to pay taxes for he could argue for. My issue has never been his class or his wealth. Until the inequity is addressed it wont matter if we waste our money on wars or art.
But he is a fool if he thinks the middle or poor will be hurt less by funding tax cuts for his class.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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@ Beyond Saving:
As an employer, perhaps you can explain something I don't get. What is the deal with employers resisting the idea of paying unemployment?
Money came out of my paycheck on a regular basis. I always thought that it ended up in a quarterly payment to the government. For sure, the government is now paying me to go to the mall 3X per week and ask if anyone is hiring.
If my last employer does not have control of the money, then why should they give a shit?
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Because claims on unemployment affect the tax rate. The way it works here in Ohio and in most (all?) states is you pay a tax on the first $9000 of your employees incomes. Here everyone pays a 0.4% "mutualized" tax that goes into the general fund and is used to keep the program solvent and is not credited towards a particular company.
Then you pay an "experience rate" which is a tax that is credited towards your company. When you have paid in substantially more than claims have been made against you the rate is 0.7%. If you become negative, ie the system has paid more in claims than it has received from you, the rate can climb as high as 9.6%, So it is a difference between paying $99 per employee and paying up to $900 per employee.
Of course, if you have a bunch of unemployment claims because of layoffs or whatnot your tax rate will go back down when your fund gets back into the positive which you can either do by paying the higher rate, or you may simply make a one time payment. When people only collected unemployment for two or three months it really wasn't a big deal. When people are collecting it for years (I think it is 112 weeks now in Ohio), well that can become a serious drain on your fund and become an issue.
Personally, I have no issue with the program for 2-3 months. But if you haven't found another source of income in 2-3 months, I fail to see how that is my problem. And Brian can scream about it all he wants but there are many people out there who are content to sit on unemployment and maybe make a little illegal money doing cash jobs until benefits run out.
There was some talk about passing a law to make it illegal to discriminate against someone who has collected unemployment long term. I can tell you right now, I discriminate. If you have been collecting unemployment benefits for two years and now they are running out and suddenly you want me to hire you? Hell no, I'm not hiring someone who might be a drain on me for two years after they are gone. Why would I take that risk if there is someone who has been unemployed for 2-3 months and is looking for a job despite having the option of collecting unemployment long term?
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
lol, you have been bitching about your new boss for at least a month now and I'm an idiot for suggesting you do something about it? Not all bosses are assholes, some are. And no law is going to change the fact that some bosses are assholes. You want more hours, you want more pay, your current employer is apparently unwilling or unable to provide that to you, so go elsewhere. By continuing to work for him, you are simply encouraging the climate you claim to hate so much. Go work for someone you like or create your own employment and contribute to the solution.
You bitch about people like me claiming that we think "getting rich is all that matters" even though I have never said any such thing. While at the same time, the ONLY thing you harp on is the pay gap, which means either you want more money or you want me to have less. I don't care how much or how little you, or anyone else, makes. The only thing I am concerned with is that you have an opportunity to try to make more IF you choose to. You do have the option to make more money, you choose to stay where you are. Fine. Why do you make that choice then bitch about it like it is my fault? If you want a smaller pay gap, do something to increase your own pay, I can certainly help you come up with ideas on how to do that.
I don't care that your employer is an asshole as long as you have the option to seek employment elsewhere. You can seek employment elsewhere, and from what I can tell, you haven't even tried. Seriously, you say you liked your last employer and worked for him a long time, what prevents you from giving him a call and telling him your hours have been cut and you need a new job? Most likely he knows other people in the industry that he could recommend you to, you could probably have a new job in a matter of weeks if not days. The restaurant industry has high turnover compared to most and employers take recommendations from other employers very seriously.
Since you choose not to exercise that option, I have no sympathy for you. Your in a situation of your own creation and your doing nothing to solve the problems you see. Your employer has no incentive to change if all of his employees tolerate the abuses you claim are happening. If employees all started going elsewhere, he might change his tune or go out of business. If you were at least trying to change things I might have a little sympathy, but so far all I have seen from you is a steadfast refusal to change anything about your current situation while whining, bitching and complaining that someone else has to change it.
Your kind of like an abused wife that refuses to turn her husband in to the police and refuses to leave him. I would love for you to be working somewhere your happy, and for you to be making an income you are satisfied with, but I can't do it for you. I can make some suggestions, help with ideas, but ultimately, you have to take action. As long as you refuse to take any action, I don't know what you want from me.
At least, I guess, I can serve as a whipping boy to stand in for your employer and for you to take your anger out on. I hope it makes you feel better.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Captain Obvious to the rescue!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
WRONG,
If it were just about me, you'd be right. This is not the only job I have had and he is not the only boss who cuts labor as a default to maintain or increase his profit margin. Hurting the worker first is part of the overall climate of thinking.
If we the worker, continue to be passed around like trading cards, we allow the climate to continue to keep us unstable and keep us underpaid and under employed.
If he were the only boss with this mindset, our country wouldn't have 30,000,000 underemployed or unemployed.
Once again I point at the moon and you stare at my fingertip.
And yes I AM doing something about it. I am telling everyone I can, online and face to face as workers and middle class to stand up to this mindset. And so are all the Occupy Wall Street.
Not all bosses are assholes, true. But far too many are and this is not just about me or just my boss. I am merely one of the affected and part of far too many being affected by the mindsets of people like my boss. This is bigger than me and my boss.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Oil is scarce. Money based on oil give a great power to oil owners, or those who take the oil away by military force. It is a stupid thing anyway to have all civilization based on a single limited resource.
Even if we should live on solar power, at least we wouldn't have problems with terrorists and war expenses.
Yes, shutting down Wall Street, banning financial industry (based on making money out of nothing) and private bank ownership of money, that is a necessary beginning. Then people can weigh facts and decide if they want a half-assed system of electro-dollars or go directly into a full RB economy, with no money at all. Life in RBE would be much simplier and humanized and that's worth something too. You most of all should appreciate cybernated society, free of human error, selfishness and bias.
By the way, I recently learned that education in USA is indeed very real-life oriented and really teaches kids to take care of themselves. Everyone learn how to keep a household, how to repair cars and other things around the house and so on. If that isn't what you mean, what is?
But seriously, I tried to study an IT profession and got totally defeated. That was impossible. All the math. A terrible experience. 50% of the students were dropped out after the first semester.
Having settled that, tell me why the original U.S. population doesn't grow exponentially, even though there is no mandatory control. Is it the monetary system, that somehow holds people by the balls? So what is the trick, too little money, too much money or just enough money?
Or is it just what I say, an easy access to contraception, social certainity that you don't need children to care for you when you're old and more opportunities for fun and self-realization?
My grandma had experienced the WW2 for a few years in childhood and it had affected her more than 40 years of communism. She has basically this attitude, "don't complain, be glad that there isn't a war." Oh, but there is a war, grandma. An economic one and just as deadly and destructive.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Money is just representative of something of value to trade. If you ban money, people with start just start bartering with something of value. I agree that it is thievery for the the government to just print money and loan money for nothing to banks.
Isn't the reason we have a financial industry is because people don't make enough money. Because our schools have failed, because we don't have mandatory birth control. Why not have a system where people can go for job training instead of a pay day advance vulture?
That requires eliminating competition, forcing total cooperation. You cann't limit responsibility to just paying taxes, everyone must chip in.
This is why people here misunderstand me, I'm not convervative or liberal, I want either a society of either cooperation or anarchy. I don't want half the people are forced to be responsible and the other half are allowed to slide.
Again the proof is in the pudding. Capitalism has lead to tremendous gains in farming efficiency, but they've all been negated by population growth. But if you take away the profit motive, you take away more incentive to be productive and efficient.
Yes the system of our genes. They tell us find the path of least resistance to survive and breed. The CEOs and the protesters have this in common. That is why they all want something for nothing. I prefer to be part of a tiny rational minority that despises both the left and right because they both believe in a 'free lunch', they only difference is what they want for lunch.
The fault is that there is no corresponding benefit for taxes put in and benefit received. Taxes are collected like a mafia gang. Tax revenues are a slush fund politicians use as payback for getting into office. Why can't a system of strictly user fees work. Income tax is essentially a fine for hiring employees and working and a major cause the current economic pain.
Well we wouldn't have financial crisis if we didn't have people borrowing would we. I actually think maybe we should outlaw lending if it is based on garnishment of someone's future salary.
Wrong. People need to train for what the market needs. We have a health care crisis now because we pay for them to study fine arts instead of taking care of the sick and elderly.
Education sucks in the USA. That's why we have so many economic problems.
So they wouldn't have fucked at all if the USA had been isolationist? People see the USA military and immediately start wanting to make babies? Since the USA has a lower birth rate, wouldn't our cultural influence actually cause lower birthrates?
Our military makes people want to fuck. People in 3rd world countries would just keep it in their pants all the time if we could just keep our troops home. Interesting theory of human behavior, you should write a thesis on this.
Why don't we do the same with paying taxes, make it voluntary? You need to expand your mind to include behaviors besides just paying taxes that must be forced for the benefit of society.
Because the damn planet is so overpopulated. Every square inch is private or highly restrictive use public. Too many rats in the cage for anything but conflict and suffering.
I sent you the link, malnoutrition is a worse problem in the USA now. They learned their lesson, we haven't yet.
Genes are the basis for how your hardware works. So for example, you are highly empathetic because you have a high level oxycitin, because your genes caused you to be built this way. So you get 'high' when you pretend you care and when others pretend to care about you. So naturally, you are drawn to political ideas(AKA memes) where all this pretending to care is reinforced. Memes exist because they provide the follower a promise of reward. Our neurological system of reward and punishment was made by our genetic codes.
Well why don't they invite some in with the condition that they don't have any more babies until they are sure they can be sustained by the community?
I don't need to read it. It's a chicken and egg problem. There is scarcity because their is greed, there is greed because their is scarcity.
The solution of mandatory birth control is so blindingly obvious, yet it's taboo for 99% of the country to even talk about it.
Someone has to pay for all the social benefits your oxytocin created.
So why isn't this a failure of the education system as well? And why do we keep paying for failure, they school still got my tax money. How about only paying a school when the student is self-sufficient?
But I'm not surprised you don't get along with computers. They don't care how you feel. The follow a set of rules for their behavior. Economic and biological systems work the same way. You might wish people would behave a certain way in an RBE, but nature has programmed them another way. No amount of wishful thinking will thinking will change this.
There is a strong culture of not wanting to be poor and not wanting your children to be either. It's a culture more of consumption rather than family. So they encourage young women to study and work instead of getting pregnant. But, we see the Latino culture greatly increasing in numbers and a lot of them are very poor. So this is what to expect in a world of voluntary birth control.
The mistake you make in your reasoning is that being well off makes people not want to have large families. You're ignoring the common cause of not wanting to be poor causes people to not have large families.
It did for a while when land was plentiful. But now every last natural resource is owned and sold at a high price. Humans are somewhat different than other animals in that we can create technology to make it possible to grow more food and get more fresh water. But we'd have to see major technology advances to have that happen.
Certainly that would cause people to be content with small families. But without mandatory controls, you just become swamped by breeders. Then the breeders pass on their genes and memes to future generations. So what have you gained?
That's how they start out, but then they keep increasing until they are over 50% for many people. I don't know what I get for them so I feel like half a slave.
OK, we have a living laboratory. China vs. USA. 50 years ago China was in the midst of widespread famine, the USA in the middle of the baby boom. Who owns our ass now?
They can buy out people because they are not spending all their money on social programs like the USA keeps doing.
Maybe if humanity decided that the real enemy was irrationality, maybe if people decided that octomoms were just as greedy as CEOs we could end war and poverty. But just wishful thinking.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
OK, this is getting a little fragmented, if I don't respond to something, take it as an agreement.
Job training is a good thing, but do you know about inflation? The more people work, the more there is inflation. Total employment is actually not a good thing, communists had it and it didn't work. There was too little work for too much people. There were two guys in every wagon of a train selling tea. It won't be much better if there will be two programmers knocking on people's doors, asking if they want a website.
If you want a well-organized society, I can think of about four castes of people with different rights and duties, each according to his needs and abilities. With free movement up and down, according to how people behave. Let's say, the lowest (least responsible and disciplined caste) would have mandatory birth control... But nobody knows how to get to it.
But seriously, the point is that taxes used efficiently do more good than harm, even if they aren't paid per user-only. (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, etc) But an efficient system requires a positive and negative feedback to the politicians. Politicians must serve people and be punished if they don't. It is actually not a problem to make efficient system, people do it all the time. The problem is, that in politics people get rich and powerful if the system is inefficient.
But how can the cultural influence of USA cause lower birth rates? Are there some subliminal messages in U. S. movies and strange chemicals in McDonalds' food and Coca Cola? You should write a thesis about that.
And why do we have to "pretend" to care? If we are our genes and brain chemicals, isn't that the real thing? What's the problem, just caring doesn't sound badass enough for you?
People get greedy, when there is something they can get greedy for. But thanks to Mr Maslow we know, when base needs are satisfied, people usually shift to higher needs. You can't stuff your stomach any more than it can hold, so you move over. People get greedy for social popularity, fame, entertainment, knowledge, admiration of their competence and so on. Only money, there can never be enough money. Many people never stop collecting money, even if they're richest in the world. That is a problem.
But show me a family with satisfied lower and higher needs and yet despite of that overpopulated. That can be, if I stretch my imagination, a rare wealthy family clan in some exotic culture, an exception from rule.
So yes, I understand systems very well, social, political, economic. And my understanding says, that your understanding is oversimplified, to put it mildly. This is why I try to shove Dr Maslow under your nose. Hell, you didn't even progress to Freud, you got stuck with Darwin.
We are so complex, that we have behaviorism, the study of people from the outside, how they behave, because the genes tell us nothing. I have never heard about a psychology or sociology based on the analysis of genome. I think such a science does not exist yet. If so, then what you say is not a science. It is that other thing.
a) consumption is just as dangerous as overpopulation (this is the American culture you admire so much)
b) not wanting to be poor stems from the fact, that there already are poor in the society as a warning example. And they breed, even if we don't.
This is why it pretty much depends on how the mother lives during pregnancy. Experiences of stress and fear in pregnancy results in children genetically driven to aggressiveness. Malnourishment of mothers has also physical changes, as evidenced by the study of Dutch famine. So yes, treating people nice and giving out free food is important. The changes are inheritable.
For more information, see the document Zeitgeist: Moving forward.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
This is because the size of the earth is finite. More people have more money to buy a car, but the earth doesn't have more iron ore or oil wells. So the answer is taxation of natural resource use(instead of income) to promote recycling and their efficient use. But if we let the world population continue to grow, there are more people chasing few resources, so what other outcome but inflation and scarcity of natural resources.
These are all pseudo-competitions. I'm talking about the competition for survival and procreation, that would need to be greatly reduces to have a society without scarcity.
No, I don't want casts. I only want people to pay the costs of their behaviors, if they can't then they can't do these behaviors until the can.
Where did the money come from to build this infrastructure to take advantage of these natural resources and grow more food. The growth in food production in capitalist societies over the last century and a half is unprecedented. You can't argue with success. But the rules of capitalism have to be changed because we're now out of land and water. It has to be reward for more food without more resources, and we can't negate gains with further population growth.
I have a relative that is a multi-millionaire from starting a company for farm equipment. The millionaire farmers are part of corporations that use the best technology. We need capitalism to build food production technology. Why is someone going to work their ass off to build hydroponic farms if they can just sit on their ass and get by?
So what you want to do is take all the wealth produced by the guy motivated to build a productive farm and give it to people that are only motivated to eat, fuck and give birth. How is that not promoting primitive behaviors?
Yes, I know what it is. Society can never move up the pyramid because population pressures force resources to go to the bottom. The rich are greedy because so many people want to steal what they have, a life at the top of the pyramid.
Yes. Well do you want to pay the banks for the cost of their security?
For these types of services one pays should be based on risk, like an insurance company. You don't buy auto insurance only when you think you'll be in accident. The government's only role need be to force people to buy insurance and make sure the insurance companies pay out.
The system is really great now where we pay Social Security tax only to see it go bankrupt when we retire. If people can't pay into a retirement fund, then why not send for job training? Why should we let people that can't pay for a child's education have children? Having a child is a luxury. You can't have a car if you can't pay for it, why should this be different?
Europe, such a fine example of socialism bankrupting everyone. Scandinavia is only doing better than the rest because of less population pressures. But this will end after the Muslim takeover.
Yes, when you have a lot of old people, the market wants a lot of health care.
I think there has already been papers written on the link between capitalism and low birthrates. People going to work in industry rather than subsistence farming so children are a financial liability rather than an asset. America's cultural influence is that young women to study and work rather than start having babies at a young age. Young people want to buy cars and clothes rather than strollers and diapers.
Oh ya. That is the trick they use to make you think it was never yours. If you had to hand over cash every week you'd feel differently about paying taxes. Wasn't it essentially a fine for working? Or a fine for your employer to hire you?
It will be so cheap when we face starvation. If they keep up mandatory birth control and we don't, they'll own our asses and we'll work for them.
Because if you really did care, you or really did an unselfish act, this would be detrimental to genetic survival, right? Evolution would have long ago made extinct behaviors that were detrimental to genetic survival. So genes are selfish and they are the basis for behaviors. But, because we're social animals and we often cooperate for survival, nature makes us feel good about 'caring'. But it's all just a game of selfish genetic survival.
Why do humans 'care' more about dogs and horses than rats and cockroaches?
How is it greed if it increases survivability? Isn't it just winning at the game of survival of the fittest? How can you make a judgment about survival, it's what genes tell us to do.
The problem is actually that the development of agriculture lead to the land and water being private. The meant people got wealthy just by controlling a lot of land and not by producing a lot of grain. They were able to enslave people that didn't own land. The same thing is pretty much still happening. Corporations can enslave us because they have access to natural resources for free and the working poor don't. The feudal system never ended, the worker just gets to pick who his master will be.
I sound like a communist or socialist with this, but the leftists are also slave masters. They believe they have the right to take the fruits of someone's labor without compensation as well. That's why I believe there needs to be a rational alternative to both the political left and right that both seek to enslave workers. The government is also the workers' master as long as we have payroll and income tax. I don't get how leftist can claim to be for the workers and for stealing from them via these taxes.
If the government is required to deliver a service to collect a fee, doesn't that also require the politicians to hire and pay workers with revenues rather than payoff people that don't do shit except get them elected?
RBE sounds like another scheme like communism to make the government the new feudal lord of the workers and not them them keep the wealth they produce.
But if Americans cut back on consumption, isn't it going to be quickly negated by population gains elsewhere in the world? If we make more food available it's just going to be consumed in the 3rd world. I don't admire American culture, but poverty sucks. So I guess that's why I still live here until there is something else better.
I thought the USA was the worst offender? I don't think they can really address these issues until they get rid of population pressures further. Just eliminating famine was a big first step.
They did it because of the great Chinese famine, it finally made them stop ignoring the obvious fact that they had to many people. Yes they are greedy in trade, but this is also a byproduct of overpopulation.
They why doesn't it happen? Why no living laboratory?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
NO SHIT? Thanks for the update.
So the more YOU pay directly to the worker, the less you get government involved , instead of cutting labor as a default, the less you have to pay unemployment, the less claims workers make.
Until you understand that labor should not be the quickest route to saving money, you will always have your head up your ass.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
As for poor people (or even gypsies), I would give them the food and housing in return for the fact that they will cook it and build it themselves. (under supervision, of course) And they'll better like it, because there will be no better offer coming their way.
Overall, I can see how these salt of the earth types would be happier to live a simple life in a farming kibbutz. There are elements of a military camp, jail, kibbutz, Hare Krishna farm and gypsy village that can be combined into a new institution where the formerly poor will be happy and busy like kids on a summer camp of scouts. All it needs is a bit of political will and positive light from the media.
Firstly, 80% of global resources is controlled by a small minority, about 20%, among whom there is of course even richer minority. All the bottom of the pyramid has to share 20% of the resources. No wonder half the world population lives on less than 2,5 dollars per day. And 1 billion is malnourished. There are only scraps at the bottom. Do not accuse the base of pyramid of hoarding the wealth! They may be overpopulated, but they do not consume almost anything. And they die because of that, plus of course 10 million deaths per year from diseases directly related to hunger.
Secondly, the rich aren't greedy, because they're afraid of thieves. Their wealth is untouchable. Nobody can steal their immovables, their corporation shares, their chairs in G8 council, or their money on Caiman Islands or Switzerland. No, try to find the right answer, why society doesn't move up the pyramid. The obvious one.
Making money not doing what I like so that I can afford activities that I like, that is a bad idea.
A "selfish" gene is just a word. You antropomorphize genes in a negative way and then you project that negativism on people. Genes propagate, that's what they do. But they are NOT a basis for behaviors, they are OK with any behavior, that allows them to propagate. And there is a very wide range of that behaviors. On one end of the spectrum, there is a total egoism. On the other end, there are some phenomena in nature where animals or insects die to provide food to the rest of carriers of that gene, or lure predators away from others, which means they can get eaten. They don't pass the unselfish, sacrificial gene forward personally, but their siblings do. And human societies imposed more variety and rules on the propagation of genes than anything else.
So yes, we can genuinely care for each other, that is a function of nerve system, not genes. A cockroach can not love, it's not equipped for that, but many higher mammals can. Dogs are famous for that. Emotions are, after all, of animal origin.
In monetary system, your life gets better only when you get a pay rise, but inflation and greed levels out the buying power again. You also have to pay for everything, like house, healthcare, transport, and so on. A couple of unfortunate accidents can strip away your cash and leave you in debt. Today we live in isolation, fear, hate and lack of interest in our fellow men, because stranger is a danger. To our jewelry, wallet, fridge, or time, at least. Our days are repetitive, filled with useless work that machines could do better. There is endless paperwork, because we do not trust anyone and we must keep a paper track of every bit of money, time, person and item. And someone's got to shove that paper around, read it, copy it, leave it for rotting for 5 years and then shred it.
That is the price of keeping track of everyone if they do their part or not. Together with countless economic and political blunders of today the price is much higher than just giving people what they need, under the condition that it is efficiently produced by modern technology and renevable energy and that they won't have big families.
Secondly, you make an assumption that these resources will be consumed (so what? That's still pretty spareful for 10x as big population as American ) and there there will be a population gain. Of course there will be! But no by endless breeding, but simply by lowering infant mortality rate due to better nutrition. This is what demographic revolution is about. But I've seen the graphs in my geography/demography classes, some countries had a big population increase and some only a small one. So it can be done safely, in a controlled way, with active participation of local authorities and citizens.
This is why the 99% protests. What you see in the world, the greed, violence, consumption and so on, is mostly a policy created and maintained by the 1%. It has no representative value about the human nature. Only that people are highly adaptable and will adapt even to such a devastating system. Up to a point, fortunately.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I agree that greed and abuse has caused this global mess. But I think it is just as much a utopia to think that you could magically serve all people equally at all times.
The key isn't to rid the world of an open market, the key is to end monopolies of power through policy.
Ayan Rand was just as delusional as Marx in thinking that life is "this way" when the reality is that it is neither and both.
You need business owners to create jobs. You also need government to be an oversight as a check on power and it should also be applied to the private sector. Unfortunately money has corrupted global politics at the expense of the rest of us. However, a global nanny state would not work either.
The fact is we are all individuals and need to look at ourselves as such. I don't care to be rich and at the same time I don't wish everyone to be poor. I simply think for most, they would say go for what you want in life but don't abuse your power once you get it. Our global economy RIGHT NOW is reflecting the dark side of human nature and I am suggesting addressing the inequity does not involve, nor should it involve, ridding the world of the free market.
INTROSPECTION could allow the open market to work better for more people if those with the money and the power did more to take care of those below them.
Both Ayan Rand and Marx were looking at the problem too simplistically because neither saw humanity as diverse which humanity is. They projected a simplistic solution on a complex problem and did not take into account that people would be diverse and want different things.
This is what Beyond does not get and this is what causes his mindset needless fear. But since we both have the voting booth, I think what he will see long term, if my side wins, that we wont shout "off with their heads", but merely correct the pay gap problem. I will say if his side wins, it will simply create more poverty and a slave wage mentality.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
People want to be comfortable, what is wrong with that? People want entertainment and escape, it's just how we're made. As for human suffering, the solution is blindingly obvious, yet it's largely a taboo subject, so what can I do?
I think capitalism needs to be modified so that wealth is only generated through work or wise investment. No more making easy money by lobbing politicians, owning natural resources, lending to the poor, etc... You still need a system that lets people enjoy the fruits of their own labor and their still must be investment because it takes a long time to bring products to consumers. You can't just ignore this necessity.
But you still have the same problem if the government does investment. They'll pick winners and losers, like Solyndra. The problem with government investment is that the decision makers are disinterested parties, so they are not motivated to study and do diligence to see what is going to be worth the investment. If the government invests and it goes bad the person that made the decision loses nothing. So in an RBE there will be a lot of waist on bad investments.
But look at you, you gave up on computer programming because it was so difficult. All the Occupy WS people did the same thing, it's fucking hard to make hi-tech stuff work well. You got to motivate people to work on this. Taking all the wealth hi-tech professionals produce and giving it to people that find technology and computers too difficult or boring to pursue aint gonna work.
And when they trade the free stuff you give them for drugs, iPods, cars, Walmart shit, etc. what do you do? When they have 10 kids and give you the finger when you tell them to stop, then what?
I never said the poor hoard wealth. They're poor, so obviously they don't have any wealth to hoard. But the fact that there is so much poverty makes people hoard wealth because they don't ever want to become that way. So you have to eliminate first scarcity to eliminate hoarding. Again you are ignoring the common cause, hoarding is not the root cause of scarcity, it's overpopulation.
You and Ocuppy WS are trying to steal it right, shouldn't they be afraid since many support violence to take it? So why even protest or put forth RBE, they can't work, right? The rich just hoard all the wealth.
Well in the RBE system the government is the sole insurance provider, right? Except there are no premiums. So why ever try to prevent something bad like a robbery, fire, auto accident. The government comes in and makes everything right, until society is bankrupt.
Inflation cause by too many people chasing too few resources. The fed printing money also. People can't pay because of high taxes and poor job training.
Yes all the freebies until they go bankrupt.
Is it my responsibilty to make sure the 3rd world has 12 billion starving masses instead of 6 billion? I want to enjoy some material things, so what? It's not my fault other cultures just keep having babies when they can't take care of them.
So you demand everyone has a house, food and healthcare, but you want a fun job. Seems like you're quite the hypocrite. You want there to be free healthcare, but taking care of sick people isn't fun enough for you. Doesn't your attitude toward work prove that RBE won't ever work?
You don't seem to have much ground to talk about selfishness and greed of others.
Are not 'greed', 'love' and 'caring' just words as well?
Seriously Luminon you can not have read or understood any of these books. Of course genes are a basis for behavior. You're going to eat when you're hungry, how did that behavior get programmed into you? Social hormones make you more of a social animal, what causes it to be produced? Autism causes anti-social behaviors, are you saying Autism has no genetic basis?
It's all a game of survival. We're social animals so nature gets us high on feelings of love and caring. But we're all drug addicts without any freewill to be otherwise. If the hormone balance in your brain changed, you'd stop 'caring' at all.
Any behavior that does not provide on average a net benefit is not going to survive evolution, right? So 'loving' and 'caring' are for the benefit of the one doing it, not one receiving it.
Where do think the instructions to build the nervous system and every other system of the body came from? Please.
At what point in our long evolution did we become capable of 'love'? In some generation our ancestors were too primitive to love and then the next they could?
You just pointed out how insects sacrifice for each other. Why is that just genetic programming for their common survival and in humans, love? Isn't it just that humans employ more complex strategies, but it's all the same game, survival?
How many brains cells must a species have for it to switch from primitive behavior to love? What is the threshold?
It has to me a feudal lord to take wealth from workers and give it to others.
So no one says, "I'm going to work my ass off growing food, building houses, taking care of the sick, etc..." I'm just going to fuck around, maybe take a music or art class, sleep in bed till noon all day and party all night.
All I can imaging is it quickly turning into massive famine and war over the necessities to survive because the government runs out of free stuff to pass out very quickly.
The desire to procreate that has been ingrained in human genetics for hundreds of millions of years just magically goes away because everyone has what the need to survive. You have as much faith as any theist ever has.
I never said they did. But they accepted the policy because it is better than starving.
Well this is all just believing in a conspiracy theory without any evidence. It's like the oil companies won't let an electric car be made BS. There is nothing from stopping about 1000 RBE disciples from going off and starting a laboratory on their own. The hippies did this in the 60's, religious cults do it. The reason is because you all don't really believe your own propaganda. Like most left wing fantasies, it's really a ploy to get something for nothing or to make yourself believe you 'care' without doing shit.
I was in the 98th percentile last year, so I better not make any more money this year or I'll cross the threshold from being good to evil. Do any of these protesters know the income level where people switch form being us to them?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen