But you can order high taxation as mandatory and enforce it ruthlessly? Isn't the tea party just rebelling in the same way?

That's what I love about you socialists, you're very selective about what behaviors are greedy and selfish. How can we have a social contract if one group is greedy about the number of children they can have while the other group is supposed to be generous about giving up their money to support the welfare state? Hardly sounds like a harmonous society.

But you can go to wall street and demand more from them. If they give you the finger, is that going to stop you?

The problem with demanding more from the rich is they have resources to hide their wealth. What can the poor do besides give you the finger? They don't have an army.

I thought machines could take care of the elderly. Or having the unemployed take care of the elderly.

Why not the same approch in paying for social services. Get people to pay them voluntarily. Why a ruthless approach to tax collection, and then a voluntary approach to family planning?

Why not RBE living laboratory? Isn't that the scientific method? If you had a drug that could cure AIDS, one should devise clinical trials. Experimentation on a small scale to indentify the benefits and side effects. Then publish your results for peer review. Once your claims have been verified, skeptics like myself would come on board and push from national then global implementation.

Isn't the real reason why this is not done is because it's really snake oil? There is nothing substantially different than the hippie communes which failed miserably. All these leftist programs are really just scams to get something for nothing? It's another ponzi scheme like social security?

Economics should be treated like evolution. Not some people's idea of what they think evolution is.

Economics is not MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, otherwise there would be no need for a class system. There would be no need for voting if only the rich could vote.

Evolution is a range it is not all genes(choices). It is also luck and environment.

Perfect example. Just heard about a poor 19 year old who died while driving her car. She made all the right choices. She had her seat belt on. She had the right of way and a green light when she tried to make a turn, and an ambulance hit her and totally crushed her car and killed her. So even with all those good choices, she still died because of actions beyond her control.

EVERY "revolution" in human history is about resources. And every animal WILL take what they need if push comes to shove, not just humans. To think we are above that is stupid, and to forget that is immoral. We are not above nature simply because we have big brains.

NOW, those at the top want to call it robbery. It would be if they were not allowed to vote themselves the past 30 years. They have been voting for 30 years and gotten everything they wanted. And what has been the result? Wages not keeping up with the cost of living while profits explode, increasing pay gap.

So, now that the middle and poor are going to use the same voting booth to try something different, they call it robbery.

My vote counts too and I am not going to allow any idiot to call me a thief after the tax payers cleaned up their mess.

GO FUCK YOURSELF

Die miserable spammer!

Yes, we can have a social contract. But in the current social contract there is no clause about limiting the population. This is why that must be introduced to people in such a way, that they will agree to that willingly and so the social contract will be updated. 
There is also nothing in the social contract about bankers and brokers controlling the world, this is why there is the people's revolt on Wall Street. If I have a good idea, I don't want it to fail because I make people angry due to sloppy marketing and public relations. 

But family planning, that's something different, it's getting too near people's private parts to feel safe. You may not realize that, but for the most part it doesn't even apply on us. For example, the original population of Europe declines, people choose career over children, so they limit themselves voluntarily. We do our own family planning non-officially. But there are ethnic groups that don't. And that requires a careful and inventive approach. We don't want them to cause problems, because they feel victimized by the white mugs. Ideally, if these people feel so ethnic, they should choose their own tribal leaders, imams or whatever. And these will be "offered" cooperation with authorities to enforce strict birth rules in their community. If not, take their social welfare away and offer them work, if they don't want to work, take their children away. That's just one of many possible solutions and certainly not the best one. But force sometimes must be used, specially against bad gypsies. You wouldn't believe what do they get away with in my state. Must be gypsy magic, they must have snatched a handful of government minister's hair and cursed him :P 

We have the technologies and the plans to put them together. RBE is pretty much about designing an efficient city (this is why it's circular) with its own power sources, built-in transport, housing, hydroponic farms, waste recyclation, water desalinization, cultural and recreational areas, and so on. It's like when architects design a normal city, only much better and all new, not outdated makeshift patchwork like the current design. I don't know what's controversial about it. Do you? Tell me. But yes, everyone in the Venus project want to build an exemplary self-sustainable city. I hope to find more rumors about United Nations contacting Jacque Fresco.

If you're concerned about hippie communities... does it have to do anything with RBE? Share your doubts with me, just make them specific. 

Get on www.theyoungturks.com, their reporting in the first hour of the show is fantastic on this. Send me a private message for member login, I will create a new paid account for people who want to check it out without commercials & stuff. I am doing this to advertize an absolutely incredibly insightful group of people who break the political situation down and serve it to you on a silver platter.

Hippie communes huh?  Did the hippie communes declare all the worlds resources the common heritage of all manking, then do a global survey of our resources, then implement an open system (codes etc... viewable by all mankind) real time global resource tracking system, tehn declare all inventions/innovations/improvements the common heritage of all mankind instantly viewably by all indepth in the computer programm (NO MORE PATENTS OR HOARDING TECHNOLOGY), then abort the monetary system, then bring the greatest minds together and shift all efforts towards sustaining the population at a high standard of living for all efficiently while using state of the art technology including automated robotic systems for farming, recycling, construction, transportaion, energy collection, etc... then design entire cities around the most efficient way to do this while slowly recycleing the old ones, while bringing the greatest minds in robotics together to replace 90% of the  future grunt work with efficient robots allowing people more time to work on advancing the standards of living for all,  drop military efforts/planned obsolesence/marketing all this non-sense, then successfully advance the philosophies of the general population to understanding that we can sustain ourselves in abundance if our focus is in the right direction and to not fear technolgy "replacing jobs", then raise generation after generation after generation in such a society untill scarcity is something only talked about in history class.  Did the hippie communes do this, haha???  Apparently to you an apple in an orange, no, an apple is a gorilla.

Clearly you have no idea what an RBE entails.

Oh yes, I know. The right to breed is just so private and personal, it's everyone's individual choice. But then when it comes to paying for the offspring, then suddenly we change to being on big family where paying for the children is a public matter. How convenient, you can have your cake and eat it too and then send me the bill for for these fucking 'private' choices.

Then where is the living laboratory to demonstrate this? The reason there is no laboratory is that it would quickly collapse.

There is no mechanism to force people to work hard and be productive if they don't want to be, so you'll get a handful of lazy people and then one bad apple ruins the barrel. Everyone sees you can get by being lazy so they all do.

Also you are committing the ignoring a common cause and reversing cause and effect fallacies when it comes to the correlation between poverty and high birth rates. You claim that when people no longer have to worry about having more children they will stop having more kids????

The desire to not be poor causes people to not have a large family. Look at how many people decide to focus on their career, hobbies and then never have kids. Poor families have many children because this is their culture. They learned from their parents to endure and get by with little. Women start having babies at a young age, they don't think about poverty because this is their culture. Culture and genetics is the cause of both high birth rates and poverty.

I actually think there are some good ideas here, but their has to be mandatory family planning, mandatory work and mandatory job training.

Exponential population growth can be simulated on a computer as well. This is what you always get when there is lack of scarcity.

OK. So it's nerds instead of hippies. But, the same dynamics are in play.

Any animal is only going to be as active as it needs to be to survive and reproduce. If being lazy and unproductive pays off, this is what people will do, why work, innovate and waist your energy on production if there is no advantage?

We have a biological imperative to reproduce, scarcity is how population growth is limited. So you can't have a 'scarcity free society' and uncontrolled reproduction.

It seems for this to work, you need to re-engineer basic human biology to something other than eating, consuming, fucking and birthing. What technology does this? You need a technology game changer.

PLEASE STOP watching Fucked News.

The middle class and poor are NOT lazy. The only one lazy is you in your attitude.

Just like science, life is neither all luck or all choices, but a combo of both. Economies can and do affect people beyond their own personal choices. Just like you can obey traffic laws and speed limits and wear your seat belt and STILL get hit by another car.

Addressing the pay gap, stagnant wages, and lack of jobs, does not make one lazy. Get your head out of your ass.

This problem was caused by the top, not the middle and not the poor. Pointing that out does not make people lazy.

You are not going to get away with blaming others for the mess the top caused.

If you are scared that we outnumber you, you should be. The top started a war on the middle class and poor and it is a war they will not win.

Every time you go out now, when you eat out, or go to the store, you look in the faces of the waitress, the trash collector, the teacher, the busboy, you look at them, take a good long look, WE outnumber you.

Now, I'll give you choice like a bratty child. You can either, start caring, or you can deal with our reaction. What you will not get away with is more of the same. What you will not get away with is the lie that we are lazy.

THIS IS OUR government, not just yours. We have done it your way for the past 30 years and our country is totally fucked up as a result. You are out of your fucking mind If you think the rest of us are going to put up with your bullshit.

Oh yes I'm really on to believe in magic. I don't believe so, it's not our biological imperative. And what do you do outlaw religion that tells people to 'be fruitful'?

We take the path of least resistance. So if not being productive pays off which is what a volutary work system would do.

Unfortunately work can't be fun because we live in a competitive world, thanks to our biological imperative. Work can't be fun because there's too many rats in the cage.

The RBE debate boils down to one thing.  It is not if it is possible, it is if WE can do it.  A hypotheical RBE is surely possible, it is wether or not we are capable of reaching it and successfully making the transition over to it over the next few centuries, are we...mature enough.   Life in outer space may have already reached such a society.  A society that can house, feed, and transport all equally and with no effort with advanced technology and societal structure.  So when I am asked the question "do you believe it is possible for us to mature to such a society" I am inclined to say yes, but that is not the most reasonable conclusion for me.  The most reasonable conclusion is that the question is irrellevant, whether we are capable or not doesn't matter we must try regardless to honor ourselves.  So whether we fail or succeed in bettering our world is irrellevant, only the fact that we try is.  Our world is doomed the way it is going, the way we consume and compete, no intelligent man could say otherwise.  Got a better Idea?

NO the reason the poor have so many kids is because the right wing in this country sell a utopia mantra that having kids and getting married is the only goal in life. I don' t think in any case humans should lose their compassion for the poor.

If our country were more educated you would see that birth rate go down.

Don't blame the poor. I am tired of that shit. You starve anyone out of a living they WILL do what they have to to survive.

The key is for the cost of living, and pay gap to be less lopsided. The key is to make education affordable or FREE AND efficient.

We don't need more trade schools. We need better DEEP education. We need to have a nation full of people who knows who our second president was. We need a nation full of people who knows what DNA is. We need a nation that can read Plato and Socrates, EVEN IF those remain at the bottom.

If even the poorest of the poor were that educated they could not be taken advantage of so easily. The wouldn't buy into utopia scripts. They wouldn't need to be on the government dime. They would be better able to hang together to stand up for a more equitable economy.

The rich don't want to educate the poor. They want the poor to stay poor so that they can have cheap labor. You look at nations that don't have our pay gap, their poor are far more educated and nowhere near exploited, and have less crime and better education rates and less unwanted pregnancies.

But you will NOT get America to do what China is doing. And even if it is practical, it goes against human nature. Humans do not like force. And this would just be a form of class fascism.

This would simply amount to money equals power and might makes right. I find no compassion or morality in that at all.

Look, my boss fucked me over after all my loyalty and it was nothing but a power trip. DAMNED right if I need food stamps or unemployment I will take advantage of it.

He could afford me and he DID NOT have to cut my hours. FUCK HIM.

If people like him didn't want me on food stamps or unemployment he shouldn't have fucked me over.

If he is going to be a dick and act like god and say "I can do what I want" without regards as to how it affects me, he can go fuck himself.

I have no sympathy for those who fuck over their employees for no other reason than that they can.

There are THREE classes, not one and it is way passed time that the greedy dicks at the top realize that.

"Pet theory" is what America has been suffering from for the past 30 years.

And yes, I will keep repeating it because it needs to be repeated because their "pet theory" has fucked the rest of us over.

More of the same won't work.

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Longer than 30 years. At least a century and a half. The crap gets recycled over and over. That is why the era when the train system was built had shitty wages while the robber barons sucked up the cash got filthy rich. That is why factories used to use child labor and had 12 hour work days. That is why we had the great depression. And so it goes.

I really do agree that we need change. Just not “fuck the rich” syndrome. We need ideas.

One of my ideas would be to hand out the best tax breaks to companies for investing back into the community. If you don't want to put some of the profits back where they came from, then you can pay more taxes.

Complimentary to that, if they really do want to move factories overseas, then fine but they have to invest in building those communities. Either that or stop charging $150 for a $5 pair of shoes here at home. Do that or pay more taxes.

"fuck the rich" is not a syndrome, it is a reality for the reasons you stated above, that caused the great depression, and for the past 30 years we have backslid into going into that direction.

BUT, again, it is not "all or nothing" when I say "fuck the rich", I do not mean end wealth or the free market. When I say "fuck the rich" I am strictly talking about the attitude and direction of our current market.

WEALTH can pull us out of this, it just cannot do it and refuses to do it with it's current "let them eat cake" attitude and then bitch when others stand up to the monopoly. If they won't change their attitude on their own we will do it for them. But despite what they think, if we do, they will find out we were right all along.

It was better before. It got better after WW2 and since Reagan we have slid backwards. The crybabies at the top don't see how easily they could help and how much better off all of us would be if they did. But I am not going to wait for them to do it with their current attitude. Policies need to change and our bought government needs to end.

An attitude change is all I am looking for. Nothing more.

The "bums" are the minority. Having been low paid my working life, I can tell you that the vast majority of the poor are NOT lazy. That is a lie sold by the right and by the wealthy.

Yes, and agreed, but the "bums" at the bottom are a fraction of the working poor who are not lazy  and the damage caused by the real welfare queens at the top are the ones who have caused the damage.

And what kills me is that they could easily get the working poor off the government dime and reduce the "bums" if they wanted to. They just don't want to. But "cant" is bullshit.

And claiming, like you do, that giving domestic companies 'financial incentives' to not look at relocating to another country where the burdened labor rate will substantially increase their bottom line, is something that people should be outraged about, is patently fucking stupid.

You mean like 'tip your waiter more'?

Fuck, you crack me up with your sound bites.

Why exactly should anyone do that? What do you think that is going to result in? Explain in detail the pros of doing that and I'll let you in on how compatible it is with 'a sound business strategy'.

You need a reality check and learn what the phrase 'what the market will bear' means.

That means that markets shift, and companies that don't shift, risk extinction. What this means is that 'workers' that don't grasp how they 'fit' into a business model, are delusional about how they actually do fit in a business model.

You have a clear double standard in 'expectations', and really don't understand business at all. I'm not picking on you, I was that ignorant and sure that I understood 'good business strategy' before I got into business over 20 yrs ago, despite being brought up in a family that owned 3 businesses.

It took me almost 10 yrs before I finally figured out which 'ideals' most hampered my success in business, and which 'universal' strategies are the ones to stick with, because their yield over time is the best and least risky.

The reality is, is that what looks good on paper, doesn't play out so well in real life.

I don't know what planet you live on... 'competition' is about gaining market share, and when all other things are equal to your competition, a lower price gains the advantage, so the company that can offer the same product for less, and still make the same margins, wins on 2 fronts.

You want to frame that as 'the worker loses', and hope that no one factors in that the company has provided 'an opportunity' for the worker to earn money, while not impinging on the 'workers' freedom to choose to do it somewhere else.

So, there's 'no crime' against the working class.

They are as 'free' as anyone to step up to the big league and 'provide opportunities' for workers.

Can you prove that? So, are they simply not as entrepreneurial as the 'rich'?

What point do you think you're making? Do you think that 'working hard' is the better strategy to 'working smarter'? 

Why? You're 'outpowered', obviously.

I do. All the fricken' time and realize I'm glad that I managed to achieve something they didn't, which is better.

And you're disposable when you become more of a burden than an asset. Welcome to the real world...

What would you call it if they completely moved all their manufacturing to China, eliminating tens of thousands of 'American jobs' and sold the same number of imported product yet improved their bottom line exponentially?

You'd call it a 'tragedy', they'd call it was it is, which is a 'financial windfall'.

Financial incentives to those who offer huge job opportunities are 'preemptives' to avoid those kinds of 'tragedies'.

It's not only unfortunate that you're ignorant about how businesses actually work, but it's unfortunate that you don't want to really understand reality, when it's laid out for you in black and white, and can arm you with information so you can 'play the game' better.

And it is a game. You have a real disdain for people who have played the game better than you, but not factored in that it's usually due to the higher levels of risk and initiative that they put forth compared to you, or simply that they have more 'special' skills.

There could be any number of 'busboys' out there who can do what I do, and do it better, but will never achieve what I have and will achieve, and there's very simple reasons for that. And the 'flip side' of that is that they haven't as much as I do at stake.

I can 'invest' a couple of hours debating you with multiple posts (that'll go in one ear and out the other with you) where you might actually learn something, or I can turn to my computer and 'invest' the time into billable hours and make another few hundred dollars.

I'll take the money.

That's on top of an initial $15000.00 dollar order I scored today for a long term contract (as a matter of actual fact) from a 50 hr risk and initiative of time and resources I took 3 months ago.

It'll help me recoup the $1500.00 I paid a few weeks ago for a mint DOHC 5.0L 5 speed Porsche 928 S4 that I bought from a guy who needed to get out of a bad debt, that I can flip for 10-12k after I spend about 1000 bucks cleaning it up.

Oh, and I have 3 partners that are off to trade shows this week exhibiting our collaborations, where we can at the very least be sure to walk away with enough sales at the shows to recoup our development and trade show expenses, at the very least.

That's how you make money instead of excuses for why the 'system' won't led you get ahead.

The only reason I bother to point out your fallacies is so that other people don't fall for the same lame type of myopic understanding that doesn't actually arm people with a strategy to 'get ahead' in life.

Ever heard the axiom 'If it was easy, everybody would be doing it' ??

Bitching and complaining is as easy as breathing, and working smarter requires more skill and effort, which is why bitching and complaining is so much more popular...

Correction: Warren wants all the other rich people to pay more taxes, not him. Not a horse I would choose to back up.

No, there is a difference between "what the markets will bare " and "what the cheats will manipulate and convince others that it is "what the market will bear"

I think the Wall Street protesters are getting wise to the propaganda.

You can sell shit as ice cream for only so long. So now that the "market" is bitching, then you shouldn't bitch yourself. Or is it that the market only works when you win?

Your problem is that you want to treat an entire economy like a checkbook, and it is not that simplistic. And you also want to blame the other two classes for the scam the top perpetuates to create the ponzy scheme bubbles the rest of us have paid for over the past 30 years.

IT IS NOT JUST what the market will bare. If that is the case then North Korea is great market because it's government makes it's citizens "bare" what they thrust on them.

Monopolies do not constitute a free market. And as long as one class is dogmatic and selfish as any other religion "what the market will bare" is as meaningless as nipples on men.

Huh?

Maybe I am reading this wrong but it sounds like, "Brian, I am not against everything you say, just that your delivery turns people off and may turn them to your opposition"

Correct me if I am wrong?

Now, if you have been following my posts on this issue, and I do treat theism the same. I DO NOT HATE ALL that hold positions I do not hold. But that does not mean I should never blaspheme their position or call bullshit on a claim they may make.

On the issue of economics, I DO NOT CARE, that someone may want more money or more things in life than I do. Their desires have NEVER been my issue. THE STATE OF ATTITUDE overall, over the past 30 years however, has made it worse for more and more people.

Good, because I know I am not a thief. But when I suggest taxes to people with Beyond Saving's mindset, he treats me like a criminal, FORGETTING that for the past 30 years our voting society has given him everything that he wants, at the expense to the rest of us, WHICH PUT US IN THIS MESS.

People Like Beyond get upset when someone objects, as if I should not use the same government to vote to do something different than what his ilk has gotten away with for so long.

So all it amounts to is sour grapes when someone outside his club stands up and fights back.

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Brian, why do you keep using 30 years as the moment when shit started to go down?

Clearly you do not take into account the terrible state of the economy before that.

We had economic stagnation and 20+% inflation. You could not even try to save money, you had to spend it as fast as you made it or it would rapidly become less. Gas went from $0.25 per gallon to $2.50 per gallon in a bit over a year. We invented right turn on red because it was so damned expensive to sit at red lights when there was no traffic related reason not to make the turn.

The big car companies came close to releasing hybrid engines (they having existed commercially since the end of WW1). They even built prototype cars with Stirling engines, which would suck as a main engines but would work in a hybrid.

The Federal government set up tax incentives for green energy because other energy was costing us so damned much. Put solar panels on your house and get a break from the crushing taxes of the time. The wealthy were buying jewelry at retail and having it appraised at wholsale in order to declare a tax loss.

I will not say that things are not bad today but all of the above happened under your dear sweet democrat president who taps on a few nails so that poor people can buy a house for half of what they can sell it at as as a PR stunt.

Bloody hell but he was so damned determined to be the commander in chief that he refused to listen to his own generals on the hostage rescue plan. He ordered them to use totally inadequate equiptment that ended up crashing in the dessert.

I ought not to need to remind you that the Iranians were so quaking in their boots when we elected Reagan that the hostages were returned on inaugration day. But since you keep spouting that all of the world's problems began on January 20, 1981, I really have no choice but to inform you that the world was in much deeper shit then and that was the very day that things started to get better.

That's not even germane to what I was talking about. Do you really not have a fucking clue about what I explained, or are you just being obtuse?

Let me dumb it down some more, and see if it will actually register this time. I responded by explaining shifting markets to your lecturing me about improper 'expectations' :

"Stop expecting the middle class and poor to accept less and do more for less."

Perhaps you're unaware that most white collar professionals don't get paid 'by the hour'. They get paid a 'salary' per year.

Perhaps you're unaware that some professionals get paid a 'base salary' + 'bonuses'.

Perhaps you're unaware that some businesses have to 'lower their prices' in order to maintain market share or patronage.

In all of these instances, these 'classes' of people understand that there are times they can not only get less for the same effort, but can at times work harder than before and get less, because of shifting markets, or what the market will bear.

IOW, suck it up, Buttercup, life isn't always fair, and 'business' is no exception.

That's not germane to anything I've said.

So how come there are so many people who have shit for brains?

Duhhh... where did I bitch about the 'market's bitching'?

You really don't have a clue do you? There's no better time for individuals who have money and great credit than times like these. They can not only buy things for pennies on the dollar with their money (like I did with that mint Porsche), but they can loan money leveraged against assets to borrowers for interest rates that they could never get from any bank because the banks won't loan money to borrowers.

As for me, I'm in aerospace level Industrial Engineering with almost unlimited flexibility in where I can find my next 'contract', or develop a technology or system that I can sell or license.

There are certain sectors that hardly notice a 'bump' no matter what the markets. Funeral homes, for example. I'm another example.

Are you on glue? Where the fuck did you get that from anything I said? Because of preemptives?

Ok, you really are on glue.

I never assigned any 'blame' anywhere. I just pointed out the fallacies in your assertions.

Who claimed that the whole problem going on in America is about what the market will bear?

Strawman much?

Who claimed that monopolies constitute a free market?

Was that supposed to make sense?

You really are off your fucking nut...

Are you referring to me in your diatribe of a class that's 'dogmatic and selfish'? Coz, that's fucking funny.

Let me explain what you term as 'dogmatic' is what I call an 'axiom'.

"Buy low, sell high" is an axiom in business. Your stupid mischaracterization of a logically sound strategy as a 'dogma' really only illustrates that you really don't have anything intelligent to debate, so instead you'll just foam at the mouth with rhetoric and vitriol.

As far as 'selfish'.... you do understand that it's 'subjective', don't you?

If that's your firm position about an important reality in business, I can confidently predict that you'll never be successful in life.

Thanks for laughs. This is better than HBO...