Were tribes meant to live among each other?
Offline I don't have a car. I walk everywhere. I live in Texas, and up until recently, it's been really hot. My dear 55-year old Mother (who I don't live with. I swear. I have my own place.)....sometimes chew me out over the phone if I tell her I'm walking, and it's really hot outside. lol. Kinda angers me that I'm pushing 30, and I have to deal with my Ma (who I do love) lecturing me. I vented to a friend about this. He took my Ma's side. He's Latino and mentioned how my skin is too bright to handle the heat, or something along those lines. It is true. I am a very white man, and anyhow, his comment got me thinking, and this is not the first time I've thought about this, but the wheels turned a bit more recently. Texas, the Southwest, and all over the South once belonged to Mexicans and Native Americans. Their skin is darker, therefore, they can deal with this intense heat then whites that melts the entire South. They can spend hours working in the heat, and not get badly sun burned or get skin cancer. Black people can handle the sun better as well, because in their native country of Africa, it also gets really, really hot. Then you have Arabs who also can handle the heat, and in their lands in the Middle East, it gets hotter there then in Texas. Having typed all that: Where do we white people originally come from? Places like Russia, England, Canada, Norway, France, Scotland, etc. None of these places are infamous for the heat. (Stuff like this makes me think maybe a God exist, and that he or she had a plan, and it was because of the greed of man and his desire for power that things got all messed up.)
In closing - While I think violence is going to happen regardless of how we all live, it seems the biggest cases of violence happens because of culture-clashes. Members of different "tribes" fighting over how the world should be.
I watched the remake of "Straw Dogs" the other day, and that is another example of a culture-clash. For decades now, films like this have been made, and I think too many people miss the big lesson here, and that is we should be more open-minded towards those that are different so we can live in peace.
But I don't think that will ever happen as long as we keep sleeping and dreaming the American dream. Infact, I kinda blame the Christian belief on everything getting messed up because the founding fathers had this silly dream where we all get along. This "We are the world" stuff is a nice thought, but the inner-ape within us all is never going to truly allow that.
- Login to post comments
I don't know if I quite see where your going. Of course much violence comes from cultures clashing. Wars are always "us" vs. "them" and the more different "they" are (whether it is looks, customs etc) the easier it is for people to fear/hate them which leads to violence. And of course different skin colors evolved to help people survive their particular environments back before technology made such factors irrelevant to survival. So what?
The founders didn't dream we would all "get along", they dreamed that we could settle our disputes through words and peaceful elections rather than have one power violently seize control from the other every few decades. For the most part I would say it as been successful as we can be fairly confident that our political opponents aren't going to come shoot us.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }
OK, on a scientific base, we were all black 75,000 years ago. The whole white thing appears to be related to vitamin D production, which high levels of melanin tends to suppress. When we moved into Europe, we had to lose the melanin in order to absorb enough sunlight to remain healthy.
So yes, white people are at a disadvantage in hotter climates. It works both ways though. I write from Connecticut and black people need to take vitamin D supplements.
=
It's no accident. It's evolution and adaptation. Note that the same pattern appears in South America, even though the indigenous people there did not come via Africa, but via Asia, crossing to North America, and then down to South America. The skin tones are far more strongly predicted by geographical latitude and sun exposure than ancestry or migration!
From : http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/skin-colour-map-indigenous-people
Skin colour map (indigenous people)
Click here, or on the graphic, for full resolution. Skin colour map (indigenous people). The twin role played by the skin – protection from excessive UV radiation and absorption of enough sunlight to trigger the production of vitamin D – means that people living in the lower latitudes, close to the Equator, with intense UV radiation, have developed darker skin to protect them from the damaging effects of UV radiation. In contrast, those living in the higher latitudes, closer to the Poles, have developed fair skin to maximize vitamin D production.
Designer
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
I don't think they are fighting over how the world should be, they're fighting over whose genetic code survives. Evolution doesn't care how the world should be, what survives is what survives. Animals like humans with no natural predators tend to attack other members of the species in a battle for survival and dominance. Animals that are preyed upon find safety by flocking together.
War, violence and racism happen because they have been successful survival strategies. If you want to eliminate them, the global society would need to make it so there is no longer an survival advantage. We somewhat do that by putting people in jail that commit unprovoked violence and war, but obviously not enough.
The other thing that must be done is eliminate population pressures with mandatory birth controls, but that is still a taboo subject.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I saw your posts over on civilwartalk.com, Zeeboe. Recognized your screen name.
Didn't know you were into the civil war.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Religions reinforce, and often ultimately supersede, tribal differences. They are derived from, and assign a spurious divine endorsement of the primitive attaitudes which lead to tribal conflict.
To get close to the 'dream', people need to get away from centering their life around some ancient faith. At least with a more recently emerged 'faith' or world-view, there is a better chance that it will be a better fit to the world as it is, which is so different from that in which most of these faiths emerged.
I cringe at the use of ''meant to" in the title of the thread. Smacks of a religious view, even if it wasn't intended that way. The opposite of the evolutionary perspective.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I didn't think of that until you mentioned it but you're absolutely right.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Yes, I am a huge American Civil War buff. I've spent hours on various forums and real life debating, and defending mainly the Union's point of view, despite being from Texas.
I've also always defended President Lincoln who has become somewhat of a Christ-like figure for me in recent years. I can almost see why some people may have taken Jesus, who could have been just a man, and turned him into something he wasn't. It's like you admire someone so much because they have all the answers that it's hard to see them as human as you. But wrong topic. 
Sorry for the late response. Anyhow, one of the biggest themes about this thread was nature - All the Natives of various regions are born with skin that prepares them for the heat or winter. I think nature clearly intended for Whites to live in more colder areas, whereas those with darker skin tones were intended to live in hotter weather.
Stuff like this is what keeps me Agnostic, because that seems like a Higher Power's work.
Evolution and adaption explains that very easily. Hardly a mystery to justify a 'higher power'.
When humans settled in a new area, those with skin color, or any other simple characteristic that could vary significantly between individuals, that allowed them to survive the new conditions a bit better than others, would be more likely to mature and have kids, so such characteristics would tend to intensify and spread.
One thing that a deep knowledge of the variety of life and where it dwells makes abundantly clear, 'Nature' has NO 'intent or purpose.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Bob, could you expand on that last statement? How is survival of the fittest not an intent? Is that just a human convention? It is a real pattern though.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
I get that people learn to survive, but again, nature planned it differently. Nature never intended for white men to live in the West of the U.S.A. for example, which is why there were no Native White men born out there at the very start of humankind. We had to get up, and actually go there. We were born in places like Russia for example where the cold winters had no affect on us, whereas it may be a problem for a black man. Same can be said about the West of the U.S.A. or Africa - White men can get skin cancer because of the heat, but a person with a darker skin tone would have no problems.
Black people, Native-Americans, Arabs, Latinos -...if you trace back their family origins, you'll find that all their Native homes were places that were very hot. And their skin color protected them.
My people however...the white people came from places such as England and Germany. That's where my family is from. I have very Nordic features as a result. Other whites came from Poland, Russia, Norway, Canada, etc, etc. We all come from someplace different. And those places I named are very cold areas, and are not infamous for their sun. Dig what I'm saying at all?
Yeah, people move, and they have kids, and those kids learn to adapt, but if you trace your family back to where they started, and go all the way to where it all began, you'll see nature itself had a different plan based on what your skin color is.
In regards of learning how to adapt - Another topic, but I sometimes have debates on YouTube with those racist Black Hebrew Israelites guys, and they love to point out what I pointed out - About whites getting skin cancer because of the sun. I explain to them that the sun clearly had no effect on white men back in the day because white men were still able to go out West, and to Texas, and fight Native Americians and the Mexican Army, and win. The sun and their enemies had no effect on them.
I know this may sound borderline racist, but that does prove what you were talking about Bob about learning how to survive, and adapt, and also how only the strong survive, and again, I really hope this does not sound racist, but I do think white men have proven to be the strongest tribe of them all since nature, among other things, has never stopped them from gaining power and control.
See, stuff like this is also what cannot cause me to become a believer because when one reviews history, and how things are today, you see examples of what Darwin has talked about.
Simple evolution.
You mentioned Europeans being of more fair complexion.
The lady that works at the gas station where I stop for cigarettes every other day is from Germany. Her hair is black and her eyes are brown.
My background is Irish/Italian. Some of my Italian ancestors were dark and some were not. Same thing with the Irish members of the family.
Italian side of the family are all descended from Florence and the Irish side were all from Dublin.
Both sides immigrated to the U.S. in the late 1800's and early 1900's via Ellis Island New York.
Complexions among people vary.
Besides, it would seem odd to me that a higher power would design a planet with varying climates, varying ecosystems and then design different races for the intention of sticking to a particular region.
Had it not been for various tribes and races, moving to different regions, conquering and interbreeding with different cultures, the human race would not be what it is today.
No higher power would be needed.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I recall reading a study that showed the skin pigment of an entire region could shift within 3 generations without the culture even noticing. Should you and your descendants stay in a hot climate long enough, the skin colour in your descendants will change regardless of how "white" you are and how "white" you marry.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Sorry not to get back to you earlier. Busy. And then when I did get back to the forum, this thread had slipped down the 'recent posts' list.
Anyhow, I see no intent or purpose - that implies to me a pre-emptive drive of some sort.
"Survival of the fittest" - not an accurate expression of the evolutionary algorithm.
"Survival of the best at generating the most surviving offspring" would be better.
Not an 'intent', just a logical observation. Whatever changes randomly occur in an organism's genome that have the effect of improving rate of individual survival to reproduce, and/or increase the number of healthy offspring will be more represented in the next generation.
It only works generation by generation, so no 'foresight', no ultimate 'target'.
It really is just a simple algorithm, at heart.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology