Additional question: Has anyone seen this movie, and is there anything new in it that hasn't been said a million times by apologists like Beloved?

Why do you keep asking us to prove he doesn't exist when you can't prove he does?

You don't get to win by default. I have no problem saying that I could be wrong on the existence of God and have no issue with how I see the rest of the world. If you agreed that you could be wrong on God's existence, the way you see the world would collapse because your belief about God's existence is the only thing holding it up.

It's not always true that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  If you claim there's a giant, visible giraffe in my backyard, all I have to do to disprove that claim is look in my backyard.  If there's an absence of evidence for the giraffe, then that counts as evidence against it.  It gets trickier with an all-powerful being that can hide easily.

And as far as you not reading any arguments on here from atheists proving that God does not exist, you don't need proof against something's existence to not believe in it.  Do you believe in fairies?

For a being which is supposed to be omni-present, watching over us, and intervening in our affairs, absence of evidence is very definitely evidence of absence.

yep - woo woo.

I missed that.  But you know, that has to be one of the sillier sayings humans have come up with.  That some feeling is in your heart.  I just had an echocardiogram and there is nothing in your heart except muscle, blood, veins, arteries, all that physical stuff.  No emotions or feelings that I could see.

Even if a guy called Jesus allowed himself to be arrested and executed by the Romans, that proves absolutely nothing. He may even have believed he was doing something that was somehow going to help other people, and even future generations in some way.

So what?

It is up to you to show just how this actually benefited anyone in some demonstrable way. Even if the story inspired some people to make different life choices, you have to show this was a significant net benefit to mankind, and that the whole thing could only have happened if there was a God figure behind it all. Just what action in that story is beyond human psychology?

All the extra 'meaning' you see in the crucifiction account only 'works' if you already accept the God story in the first place!! It cannot be proof of it!!

Even if a God arranged it, it still doesn't prove it was any more than a stunt to impress us gullible mortals. Again, you have to already believe that the being who is supposed to have drowned every one on earth apart from one drunken fool and his family, destroyed whole cities to 'punish' them for pissing him off, and so on, 'really loves us', and not in the way an abusive husband really loves his wife.

The whole story is absurd beyond belief.

If it's the case that you hold to that idea, then the logical extension of holding that position would also be that 'The presence of evidence is not the evidence of presence'.

There's no place for double standards in the pursuit of certainty.

Then fear is the only thing preventing you from seeing all the scientific reasons why skepticism of supernatural claims is the better and more progressive methodology.

aka Special pleading fallacy.

The banal, weak, hackneyed, intellectually bankrupt earmark of arrested development, desperately attempting to shift the burden away from itself.

I can't prove Elvis is dead, either.

There's no escape from the question of why should one believe, either that Elvis is still alive, and that a god exists.

The reasons given by 'believers' why they 'do' believe, are all fallacies.

Period.

The real question is why 'should' anyone 'believe'.

I'm still waiting to hear an answer to that question that is worth contemplating...

"God does not exist" is not "mocking" anymore than saying that the earth is not flat is "mocking"

But even for example I said, "God likes back door action", THAT would be mocking.

Even if someone is "mocking", why would such a being need you to defend it? He can't defend himself although he is all powerful? And what would it say about this alleged character's morality placing getting picked on as it's top priority in a world full of disease, famine and natural disaster, crime and war? REALLY? Your god is more concerned with being called names?

To address "You can't prove he doesn't exist"

See if you can spot the pattern.

"You cant prove Allah doesn't exist"

"You cant prove Yahweh doesn't exist"

"You cant prove Vishnu doesn't exist"

Are all those claims true merely because someone has the human right to go around claiming them?

If you are going to by a claim ON ANY ISSUE, merely because someone uttered words out of their mouth, that sets you up to buy all sorts of absurdities.

I could be a used car salesman and sell you a piece of junk of a car, with that attitude.

You, "I want to buy a car"

Salesman "Buy this one, it is a pretty blue"

You, "Can I take it to a mechanic to have it independently inspected"

Salesman, "No, just buy it because it is blue"

You, "Ok"

Everyone has the right to claim whatever they want, but that is a completely separate issue than having the ability to demonstrate the credibility of a given claim, ON ANY ISSUE, not just god/s or religion.

You don't buy Allah merely because someone goes around claiming his existence. So the only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god than you do. Understand why the lack of evidence for Allah causes you not to buy that as a position of reality, and you will understand why I reject your pet god claim as well.

Claims ON ANY ISSUE, are not automatically true merely because someone can string words together in a sentence.

NOW, again, what I am addressing is not just about why I reject all god claims. But what constitutes good use of logic, vs bad use of logic. Good use of logic starts with data and bases it on that data. It doesn't guess and then work backwards to retrofit to one's own desires.

ONLY A FOOL would buy a car without inspecting it. Unfortunately our species won't apply inspection to their own pet god/s.

She may not post again, but I doubt very seriously that anyone passionate enough to make even one post, wont at least read some of what we respond to.

I hope she comes back, but if she doesn't there are also plenty of believers who will read who will never post. I go to newspaper sites all the time without posting a response to an opinion.

I see it as an opportunity to not only invite her back, but also so that any other theist reading this can know the following.

WE WONT EAT YOUR BABIES

WE DONT HAVE COOTIES

WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE UNDER STALIN

WE ALL HAVE FAMILY AND FRIENDS who do have some range of belief.

So regardless, some other theist will read this. And it wouldn't surprise me even if she did read this without posting again.

It's never a total loss even if they don't stay.

Don't worry...our disagreement doesn't bother me....There was I time when I didn't believe it either. And it makes sense for you to question it. I still have questions...My God just always has an adequate answer....

So anyway....

While it would be great to speak to each of you one on one...I don’t have the time. So I’ll address some of the stronger arguments...

Many have posted about the idea of mocking God and related it to mockery of fairytales and fake characters such as the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. I would have to negate this notion because the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause are found to be mythical based on the absence of evidence of their supposed purposes. There’s no lump of coal for the naughty and no presents for the nice. Nor has an easter egg appeared by some unidentifiable source.   What we DO NOT have in Jesus Christ is any absence of the things He has promised. We’ve discussed this before in  earlier posts....but again...we can’t rationally rule out Christianity based on a lack of evidence that Christ NEVER said you would have. Some of you have expressed frustration with God because He has not revealed Himself in the way that you see fit.  I think we can all agree that the nature of truth is that it is true regardless of how you feel about it....wishing it were different...expressing frustration with the system doesn’t falsify it.
 But IF YOU SEEK GOD IN THE WAY THAT HE HAS OUTLINED...you will find Him.
And that’s my testimony to you. I heard the Gospel...believed it and set about living it out.  The end result is a loving relationship with God....LIKE HE PROMISED....it’s not some random idea of what I think it should be...it is simply what it is...TRUTH. And even with all that...

Some of you are upset that I asserted that my proof is in my heart...BUT THIS IS WHAT HE HAS PROMISED HE WOULD DO.

“I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...”  Ephesians 3:16-17

“I’ll give you a new heart, put a new spirit in you. I’ll remove the stone heart from your body and replace it with a heart that’s God-willed, not self-willed.”  Ezekiel 36:26
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer 29:13

And it is not the same as "I just feel it in my heart" I hate to use this analogy but if someone's high on morphine...they are feeling something real. An outside source is affecting them. No one else can feel it...no one else can see it but something is really happening. And other people....if they take the same drug...will feel the same thing. Physiologically...yes, a process is taking place...but that process didn’t start by itself...nor is that process isolated, in that human emotions have consequences based on our choices.

CJ asserted: “I just had an echocardiogram and there is nothing in your heart except muscle, blood, veins, arteries, all that physical stuff.  No emotions or feelings that I could see.”

Agreed...we cannot see emotion.  And yet they are the driving force for the choices of Humanity. I said earlier in post 11: to dismiss humanity as simply atoms and cells doesn't adequately (or rationally) justify human life....Science is the observation of life...not the purpose of life.


To answer posts 46,41,39.... In regards to the definition of circle....I’m pretty sure a circle is round...so is a sphere admittedly. But I did not see the word flat anywhere in the verse....nor would I rationally conclude that if  someone referred to something as circular that they meant a disk. And is it possible to hold something above a globe?

It's not a flavour of ice cream, either. Duhhh...

Obviously, you can't prove to us that there is a supernatural deity.

No sane person should consider what you 'feel' in your heart, as evidence of a deity. That would be absurd.

You've failed to meet your burden of proof.

No one should believe you.

Period.

Do you know what self serving circular reasoning is? "Jesus said because it says so in the bible, so therefore it is true"

Would you buy a Muslim's argument if they said, "Mohamed said because the Koran says so, so therefore it is true"

And of course your magic baby and zombie god stories in the bible can be and should be rightfully put in the same category as Micky Mouse and Super man.

It takes two sets of DNA to manifest into a zygote and then onto a baby. So where did that second set of DNA come from if not from Joseph or God? WAIT WAIT......I KNOW "POOF"

And lets see, a guy gets nailed to a cross, actually in reality back then the Romans used a "T" not a "t" and would have bound them with string along with nails. Nails by themselves wouldn't hold up a body. But that's another subject.

So let me get this right? Jesus gets speared in the side. His blood completely drains out of his body, besides what settled to the lowest point of gravity. His brain dies, his organs all die, and every cell in his body dies. Then his body suffers rigor mortis. But he magically survives?

OH WAIT.......I forgot "POOF" "GOD DID IT"

And this coming from a book that "poof" creates adult plants without the aid of photosynthesis. It treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light, when modern science knows that the sunlight bounces off the moon. It magically pops out adults from dirt.

And all you have is "Poof"

So what, all deities claimed in human history are claimed to have special or super powers beyond nature. I don't see how that would be any different than the Harry Potter flying around a broom.

"God did it" is to me the same as

"Allah did it"

"Yahweh did it"

"Vishnu did it"

"Harry Potter did it"

All you have is a book of claims written over a 1,000 year period with books left out, written by people who had absolutely no clue of the nature of scientific reality.

If you want to base your position merely on tradition and "poof" and "God did it", you can. But I don't buy things simply because they feel good or simply because I want the to be true.

EVEN BEFORE you get to that convoluted book of fairy tales, you are still starting with the naked assertion that there is a magical invisible super brain in the sky with no material, no location, that is everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

I don't care what god you are claiming. Thoughts require a material process thus making non-material beings with no physical brain, with magic super powers, an absurd claim. Call this god Thor/Allah/Jesus/Isis, I don't care.

But you are kidding yourself if you think "the bible says" will work here. Your pet god claim is not special to us just because you quote the bible.

I do have fun shredding that book, but it hardly impresses me when you quote it. Other people quote their holy books too and site their books too as evidence for their gods.

SO WHAT?

There is no such thing as godsperm getting virgins pregnant and human flesh does not survive rigor mortis. This is merely you falling for a placebo fictional super hero because the idea of being saved appeals to you. Disembodied brains are works of fiction, including yours.

It's funny that you tell people to seek the truth but you're in denial about such a simple fact of geometry as a circle existing on a flat plane.

Right, they retrofit the words in the bible to suit their needs, failing to understand that the readers and even writers were scientifically ignorant.

The quotes in the bible only IMPLY, but when you take into account their scientific ignorance when they wrote it, it is obvious that the earth EVEN IF ROUND, they considered FLAT with a dome being the sky."Firmament".

They literally thought the earth was like a flat CD that sat on pillars with a dome covering it. Because that is the way the bible reads. This is merely another back peddle away from the fact that the writers where ignorant of reality.

There is absolutely nothing scientific about the bible. It is nothing more than a book of myth falsely believed to be fact by far too many people.

You know what usually follows responses like yours?

"You're just angry at God" or "You must have had a horrible childhood"

You and I would not, or at least should not base our rejection of this claimed deity sole based on the good or bad in life. Bottom line the core reason to reject any claim on any issue is lack of evidence.

This only addresses the moral inconsistency when giving this claimed being the attribute of all seeing and all loving. It is a reason, but it is not the core reason.

The tsunami did not happen because of demons or the devil, or the fall of man. It happened because of a natural earthquake, nothing more.

BUT,

If one is to assume this claimed deity, for arguments sake only, that would make this deity a huge asshole for not stopping it.

That would be like a security guard in full body armor in a tank with a portal for a machine gun, guarding a bank and still allowing it to be robbed by a guy merely  with a pistol.

If parents allowed their children to suffer the same way god allows humans to suffer, what would child protective services do to that parent? Parents have an excuse because they are not all powerful. What's god's excuse?

"I can do what I want"

"You wouldn't understand"

Sorry, doesn't cut it. I am not going to follow anyone blindly just because they say so.

These are merely the excuses given by people that don't want to accept that our species is finite driven by the unfortunate part of evolution that tends to lead our species to gap answers, rather than testing the claims we make.

in the precincts of the human brain are not an expression of external truth. 

So didn't you say something about proof? Would you mind producing it for us, or are you just going to claim that we need to seek it and all that jazzy theist talk?

Not all atheist claim absolute certainty as you have no problem doing. In my case, since no one atheist speaks for the rest of the community, I lack a belief in any religious type god or gods. Do a little homework, maybe have a conversation with an atheist, then come back and make these claims. 

By the way, what is your "truth" you are so confident in expressing?

We also can not disprove Zeus, Apollo, Fairies, or dragons and unicorns, but the lack of evidence or need for them in science shows there non existant!

LMAO, too funny.  Trying putting some science textbooks around your fence, I hear it's like kriptonite for theists.   

 I am amazed at when they say you can pray about it and it happens. Well i do yoga and meditation,( i am an atheist by t he way) and my foot was aching last night so i meditated and did this thing where you visualize earths healing powers or whatever coming into the spot where it is sore and removing it. Well it worked great i felt great thismorning..there was no I repeat no praying to an imaginary being..so what happened..? did god answer my request because he overheard it even though I reject him?  I suggest not..my thought it is just a brains way of dealing with things and it worked. , but obviously if i were a christian i would be saying wow I prayed and look what god did , answered my prayer..see how that gets going?

it is laughable to think someone is listening to a prayer and responding just my two cents

You read that book and decided it is the written word of a god? Funny, I read it and decided it was the written word of some angry socialistic poor man wannabe philosophers who were pissed off that money doesn't grow on tree's and women have a menstral cycle. 

There seems to be this unnecessary divide between science and theology. It’s as if it has been decided somewhere that a person must choose one or the other.  I will again assert that science is merely the observation of life. It does not create anything. It doesn’t make choices or somehow “workout” the betterment of mankind.
Though the Bible does not go into every detail about every occurrence, it does answer. Creation, for instance, says that God created the earth. It is the truth at its simplest. Deeper investigation into what has been created aids in wiser use, damage control and more awesome enjoyment of our home, the earth.  The Bible, in it’s simplistic claims, allows wonderful freedom for us to discover and interact with the planet. They also testify of the Lord’s might, seeing as something as mind blowing as parting the sea is easy for God, yet unfathomable to us. In many Bible stories, the people that God is dealing with do not believe the God can do what he says he will do. These people had  a very particular stubbornness in that they HAD seen God do miraculous things and they still didn’t believe Him.

Some of you will hold to scientific laws but will fight against the laws of God. No man will fight the concept of breathing, it is simply the truth that I need breath to live.  My heart must pump blood, my brain needs oxygen. Is it slavery to submit to the laws of life? If any man would choose not to breath...or not to have blood pumping through his veins, he would be begging for the consequences of that choice, calling it originality, boasting of non-conformity when really it’s just foolish.  Considering this is our nature, to be submissive to the laws that govern us, we must therefore admit our lack of universal supremacy. That truth, coupled with the fact that we are life forms with the capacity for free will and emotion, not only leaves ample room for the idea of God but actually points directly to HIS truth.

It seem that those who hold to the observable processes of this life as our only means of understanding have denied the nature of their humanity, denying the deep things of the heart. Ever met someone who was utterly devastated. Broken hearted to the point of  zombie murmurings and uncontrollable tears. Isn’t it interesting that things like that can effect you physically. They supersede natural processes. Some of you would claim that our most important function is to reproduce. It is interesting that healthy pregnancies are aided by a woman’s healthy emotional state. Babies develop better when loved and caressed. Humans are more alert, more productive, more ALIVE when they operate in love, joy, diligence and all the other things that make up life well lived. The Bible does not address the molecular structure of life, but it certainly addresses matters of the heart, the true core of life.
 

It is an impassable divide. Science is using reason and evidence to discover what is true. Theology is assuming what is true, and then, playing with word games to attempt to justify it. 

No, it's not. Use a dictionary.

Argument from analogy is pointless. You have no evidence that God exists. 

Uh, no. No, sorry, it doesn't.

Non sequitur.

Uh, okay, how does crying and being sad supersede natural processes?

Science is the honest and serious pursuit of knowledge by the best means available, whereas Theology is the intellectually dishonest search for justification of pre-conceived ideas.

One is about Knowledge, the other is about cultivating ignorance and wishful thinking, the denial of truth.

Our ability to respond to another's despair is well understood by science, it requires no spiritual, supernatural realm, only an understanding of how the wonderful hierarchy of ever more subtle and complex capabilities of ever more levels of complexity of structure, from particles, atoms, molecules, living cells, up to and possibly beyond living, conscious being.

We are gaining growing insights into the way our minds actually 'work', much of it showing what a small proportion of our brain activity is accessible to our conscious introspection, and how consciousness is a product of the brain, how it can be seriously affected by various disruptions of the physical processes going on in our brain. IOW we understand ourselves far more fully and deeply than what people believed about our nature when the scriptures were written.

And just like knowledge of the theory of music and the science of sound and its perception does not detract from our ability to respond to great music, this knowledge of our nature and the mechanisms underlying it do not detract from our ability to appreciate the 'higher' things in our life. To me, it only enhances my experience.

I would never claim our most 'important' function is to reproduce. We have no inherent 'function' or purpose, other than what we conceive of for ourselves. Some people seem only to be able to imagine everything beyond the level of 'mere' matter, such as mind and thought and emotions, as implying a separate magic realm, and requiring a 'higher power'. Reproduction is obviously essential to our existence, as products of an ongoing evolutionary process, so it is important at that level. But our continuance does not matter to the Universe, to anything but ourselves. In fact, to most of the other life-forms on the planet, our demise would be a blessing. So it is not important at all, in that wider sense.

But after a lifetime of genuine pursuit of the Truth, all I can say to those people, is "YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!". Maybe because of lack of appropriate education or experience. Maybe they just lack real compassion, and have to simulate it with the help of a fantasy narrative, which requires they swallow the Kool-aid...

I doubt you are capable of conceding that a satisfying, rewarding life can be had in the total absence of any concern for, or belief in, a God, without a belief in an afterlife, and with the REAL comfort of having made some contribution to the well-being of REAL people, at least some of whom will remember me with some fondness. But I, and many others here, will testify it is true, every bit as deeply and strongly as you will testify how your belief works for you. And as strongly as every other faith works for those who buy into it. At least ours can be shown to be far more compatible with reality than any faith. No faith required, just an understanding based on the most workable and useful set of assumptions about reality, theories, that we have been able to demonstrate so far.

Every day I see and hear more evidence that, if there is some conscious 'higher power' behind all the crap that goes on, the disease and injury, which modern medicine, informed by Science, has managed to alleviate to some extent, he deserves contempt rather than worship. I would far rather just go to sleep forever than suffer an eternity in his hateful presence.

I understand, to some extent, how you see your faith, and I will not deny its meaning to YOU.

I just would like to be able to convey to you that I am more than happy that I have chosen a different path, and your continuing imprecations are just reinforcing my confidence in my choice. My wonder and awe at what our continuing search for knowledge reveals to us about the nature of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything',  is infinitely grander than what is conveyed by the collection of primitive superstitions, taboos, and delusions found in the Bible, or any other holy book. Your misunderstanding of how we understand the world, conveyed in your posts, just makes me a little sad.