How to look at Israel in context

A_Nony_Mouse
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How to look at Israel in context

Taking is up where we left off last time, Israel is now ready to meet its maker. The occupied Palestinians living under a despotic, jewish, military dictatorship have in fact acted as a nation. In September they are going to petition the UN for membership -- which is separate from recognized existence as an independent country, occupied or not.

I know some may say the Palestinian authority is free but it does not differe from Vichy France in any respect save for freedom to appeal to the nations of the world for liberation from jewish tyranny.

The world is about to recognize the rules adopted during WWII. The occupiers can do no right. The occupied can do no wrong.

In September the nation of Palestine will be deinied  membership in the UN solely because of the US veto of membership as a member of the UN Security Council. That is what will happen.

At that point 2/3rds of the nations of the world will have to implement their local laws regarding boycotts and such of Israel. The issue is very clear, no political group can claim to be rulers of a state for the purpose of suppressing other political groups in a democracy. Jewish supremacists in Israel must be brought to heel. Minorities must be protected not be subjected to discriminatory legislaton as that is the definiton of Apartheid. Israel is replete with such legislation.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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jcgadfly wrote:
1. Israel is going to meet its maker? Don't they already know the US and the British?

2. In other threads you have equated Zionists to all Jews. When did you back off of that position?

There is always someone who wants to get back to the OP.

As to 2. I have said ISRAEL makes that equate and that Jews do not object to it save for a couple quite small groups such as Naturei Karta and Not in our Name. The former has been around since the 1930s. In any event given Israel's assertion and the lack of objection I can say the same thing. If Jews do not like it they can tell Israel to stop saying it. It is not up to me to make distinctions which the complainers do not make.

1. Yes of course they know those two but the Brits did not even recognize Israel until 1954. Would you recognize a bunch of terrorists without being paid? It took their willingness to attack Egypt without provocation which earned that recognition. Even then they left all the dirty dealing with the scum terrorists to the French.

President Truman was the first to recognize Israel as a state which one notes was separate from any UN action. It is also noted the original statement said "jewish" state which Truman scratched out so the US does not recognize Israel as a nation of the Jews.

Of course I meant it in the sense of upper case M maker. I made two points, the first perhaps a bit tersely. Israel has excluded from negotiations everything there is to negotiate. Right now Obama has given Israel about a month to agree to US negotiating terms, those same terms which Netanyahu said no to last month. With Israel agreeing there is no way to get Britain and France on board with declining to recognize Palestinian statehood. This is openly discussed and reported in Israeli newspapers.

The only countries of any importance which is not recognize Palestine are the US and the Axis powers, Germany and Italy. Thus even if the US vetoes UN membership for Palestine most of Europe will recognize Palestine along with at least 2/3rd of the members of the UN. Many important countries already have such as most of South America.

The BDS,  boycott, divest, sanction of Israel movement will receive an automatic boost and no legal way to stop it in countries which have recognized Israel. At that point there will not be enough countries against the whole thing to make up the economic losses.

The second point is that now before anything has changed quote "every Israeli who can" is getting a foreign passport. Jews are presently leaving in droves with Russians leading the way.

So before the economic downturn, before the isolation, before the travel bans, before any of the BDS consequences have started people are leaving.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Honestly, you'd best hope

Honestly, you'd best hope Israel doesn't meet its maker or Maker. Both would approve of their actions.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Atheistextremist
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Hi A-nony

 

 

What's your idea of resolution? Should all the Jews leave and Palestine only be populated with Palestinian Arabs? Do you argue there were no Jews in Palestine pre-partition?

My Grandfather was in Palestine during WWI with General Allenby and he talked about the strangeness of Arab and Jewish villages, sitting side by side - completely separate from one another. 

Who were these Jews? How long did they need to live in Palestine to be considered citizens? 

Bear in mind, my position is that Israel/Palestine should be a shared state with equal citizenship for all. I'm not holding my breath for this. 

In any case, I can't help thinking your position is probably one in which the Israelis leave - is this right? I am putting words in your mouth, I know, so do correct me. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.  Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?  If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or  any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.

As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

So if a tribe in Africa or South America is into canibalism we should put up with it? If a nation of Muslims want to oppress their women and minorities we should put up with it?

I would agree that one cannot save the world, but when any tribe or nation's backwards crap infects others I think we have every right to react.

Palestine if it wants "self determination" has to get with the modern world and stop living in a theocratic past.

 

 

Where have you been?  We do put up with it, to the extent that we "allow" countries who do so (for the most part) to maintain their sovereignty.  And theocracy isn't a thing of the past, especially in that part of the world.  When in any other instance has a sufficiently progressive way of thinking been the condition for independence and basic human rights?  How absurd.

 

I thought I was pretty clear: any illegal or unsavory action should be dealt with according to the rules with which we deal with all the other countries--diplomacy, foreign aid, sanctions, military action, ect.  By all means capture and imprison or execute the terrorists; punish those who incite the violence.  Palestine is applying in September for membership to the UN, and no doubt this comes with many social and moral strings attached, with well-outline consequences for breaking them. These are justifiable "reactions"; indefinite occupation of an entire people is not.  

 

The same kind of argument about "unadvanced" peoples not "deserving" independence was used by those who advocated slavery.  Slaveholders argued that blacks were better off as slaves because, as a people, they had no self-control or ability to structure their own lives--it was necessary for the wiser, more advanced whites to bully and cudgel them into living worthwhile, productive lives.  The fact that many slaves may have lacked these skills because these same owners made sure they never had the opportunity to develop them was an irony completely lost on them.

 

You can't withhold from Palestine the means to grow and progress as an independent society, and then justify yourself by saying that their society hasn't progressed far enough for them to deserve their independence.  Mull that phrase over in your head for a while, and see if it doesn't start to nauseate you: deserve their independence.  For how long have these people been colonized and relocated, fought over and fought among themselves?  How desperate must they be by now?  And you so condescendingly tell them to just "get with the modern world"!  Have you any idea how these people actually live, and how little anything they experience resembles what we would call the modern world?

"You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means."
--Inigo Montoya


Brian37
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UpstateNYatheist

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.  Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?  If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or  any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.

As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

So if a tribe in Africa or South America is into canibalism we should put up with it? If a nation of Muslims want to oppress their women and minorities we should put up with it?

I would agree that one cannot save the world, but when any tribe or nation's backwards crap infects others I think we have every right to react.

Palestine if it wants "self determination" has to get with the modern world and stop living in a theocratic past.

 

 

Where have you been?  We do put up with it, to the extent that we "allow" countries who do so (for the most part) to maintain their sovereignty.  And theocracy isn't a thing of the past, especially in that part of the world.  When in any other instance has a sufficiently progressive way of thinking been the condition for independence and basic human rights?  How absurd.

 

I thought I was pretty clear: any illegal or unsavory action should be dealt with according to the rules with which we deal with all the other countries--diplomacy, foreign aid, sanctions, military action, ect.  By all means capture and imprison or execute the terrorists; punish those who incite the violence.  Palestine is applying in September for membership to the UN, and no doubt this comes with many social and moral strings attached, with well-outline consequences for breaking them. These are justifiable "reactions"; indefinite occupation of an entire people is not.  

 

The same kind of argument about "unadvanced" peoples not "deserving" independence was used by those who advocated slavery.  Slaveholders argued that blacks were better off as slaves because, as a people, they had no self-control or ability to structure their own lives--it was necessary for the wiser, more advanced whites to bully and cudgel them into living worthwhile, productive lives.  The fact that many slaves may have lacked these skills because these same owners made sure they never had the opportunity to develop them was an irony completely lost on them.

 

You can't withhold from Palestine the means to grow and progress as an independent society, and then justify yourself by saying that their society hasn't progressed far enough for them to deserve their independence.  Mull that phrase over in your head for a while, and see if it doesn't start to nauseate you: deserve their independence.  For how long have these people been colonized and relocated, fought over and fought among themselves?  How desperate must they be by now?  And you so condescendingly tell them to just "get with the modern world"!  Have you any idea how these people actually live, and how little anything they experience resembles what we would call the modern world?

Listen to you. "They justified slavery at one time"

Why are you pointing at others. No nation is a "saint" ever. But pointing at others transgressions does nothing for the reality of the need to clean ones own house first.

Between the two sides Palestine is much more socially backwards compared to the west. Whatever rightful complaints and criticisms EVEN THE WEST has of Israel, should not be used as an excuse for Palestinians to use violence as a political tactic themselves.

No it does NOT deserve independence, not with it's current attitude towards Jews and the west. I feel sorry for the secular Arabs and Muslims who are victims of location, but I do not feel sorry for the powers that control Palestine or the other theocracies that fund their attitude.

I'd suggest you go live in Palestine or Saudi Arabia or Iran before you go around claiming that a bunch of bloodthirsty Muslim nutjobs deserve a nation.

Again, I have every sympathy for those whose only goal is to live in a violence free environment. I have no sympathy for those who think terrorism and violence will get them a nation.

These Muslim nuts WOULD NOT if they were given a nation, give one ratts ass about Jews OR non-Mulsims. They wouild not extend equal rights to religious or political minorities.

I think you are far to used to living in an open society and take it for granted.

There is no conspiracy here. There are two sides, one is westernized and modern. The other is tribal and theocratic.

I have no doubt there ARE Muslims who simply want peace and don't want their land taken from them. I have no doubt there are Muslims who simply want jobs and food and shelter. But as long as they are ruled by people who suck the dick of Allah and would not give equal rights to minorities, their LEADERS will never get my sympathy.

Instead of pointing fingers, I think it is hypocritical to say "their shit stinks" and do shitty things yourself. You want Palestine to be the "bigger man" and to be "above that", I don't see it. I see them using Israel's transgressions as an excuse to cling to a theocratic past.

They can get my support as soon as their leaders denounce lobbing rockets into Israel and denounce suicide bombings and denounce any and all demands for the end of Israel. They need to get off their bullshit theocratic past.

The violence has not worked and will not work. All it does is piss of Israel even more and gives them even more reason to not give a fuck about whom they hurt.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


A_Nony_Mouse
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UpstateNYatheist wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
And do not be fooled in thinking that if Israel suddenly caved in and gave into every demand of the Palestinian leadership, that suddenly Palestine would become a model westernized pluralistic society, it would not. It would become another Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.

That has been one of the working premises of the Jews from the beginning even though at the beginning the foreigners were from eastern European Shtetls where bathing was almost criminal and scholarship meant the Torah not arithmetic. Those Jews always had a greater opinion of themselves than did those who knew them.

Quote:
Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?

It is included in the universal declaration of human rights of which Israel is a signatory. It is a not a matter open to debate save to the wisdom of its inclusion in the UDHR. Besides Jews constitute a small group and although they have never accomplished anything on their own no one is suggesting a religions should have states of their own.

Quote:
If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.
Rather izziehuggers present the most antisemitic stereotypes of Palestinians they possibly can then use that deliberate hatred of the lawful owners of the land to save them from themselves.

As for doing something about it no one has been able to reign in the murderous, bigoted impulses of the Jews once recognizing Israel. That is the only real concern regarding the Palestinians, that they will do no better than the Jews.

Quote:
As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

Israel has always been that in comparison to other countries. If moved to the US the far left wing of the political spectrum would be to the right of center of the US political spectrum. The Brit, Jabotinsky started the Revisionist movement of Zionism and became dominant in the movement in the mid 1920s. It openly advocated the use of deadly force to expel the owners and steal their land. The current ruling Likud party claims to be the political descendant of Jabotinsky. Enough said.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
Do you believe jews ever lived in what the Romans called Judea? Do you realise the great mosque is built on top of a jewish temple? Do you think the diaspora happened over a couple of hundred years or is made up?

Obviously there were Jews in Judea. Josephus says they took their name for Judea. Your question is no different that asking if I believe Judeans lived in Judea. Sort of a no-brainer question that.

As a matter of fact no one knows where the Herodian temple was located. It is nothing but religious superstition saying it is under ONE OF THE mosques.

Diaspora has a lot of semantic baggage. What we do know is there is  no evidence of any forced expulsion from Judea. The claim that was is something Judeans/Jews made up early on as it was debunked in the 5th c. AD. Of course if you can produce physical evidence of forced expulsion you should publish it as no one else knows of any.

Quote:
Genetics clearly show that Jews, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese are all from one ancestral genetic lineage - some jewish people have more european dna but there's still an obvious connection dating to the diaspora.
Only Sephardic jews. The gene is only found among Ashkenazi's such as Cohens which is like the rabbis imported by the Khazars to teach the religion.

Quote:
My personal opinion is that there should be a single nation combining Israel and Palestine but we all know the chances of that are zero. I don't like the situation as it is. I've always thought the jews should have bought some uninhabited island or land - something no one had any claim to or interest in - and founded a new nation there. It would have been much less hassle even if it was an even more pestilent shit hole than Israel was in the 1940s. I think a bit of Western Australia was offered as a home site after WW2 - the Kimberley Plan - but the deal wasn't taken up and was opposed by the U.S. which suggested Palestine.

What's your solution to what you obviously see as the jewish problem?

Palestine is a geographic region and has been since at least the 5th c. BC. Israel is mostly in Palestine. So is Lebanon for that matter.

In fact in 1934 or so Stalin did create a republic for the Jews in Siberia. They didn't like the location. That was back before the CPSU power struggle with the KVD and Red Army and subsequent purges. In any event it is still there although I can't say Russia would still admit foreigners to live there. They also refused a British offer of a colony in Uganda. They had decided on Palestine and nothing else in the 1890s.

Zionism is a perhaps the most public and success conspiracy in history.

You are playing a stupid semantics game and favoring the underdog whom you think is completely innocent in all this. In the entire history of BOTH religions neither is.

This is not a matter of debate. Europeans went to Palestine and started the troubles. That they happened to be self-declared Jews although largely atheist and therefore not Jews is a separate issue. They did. They said they did it. Their government celebrates doing it annually. They write books celebrating it. They create propaganda celebrating it. They know what they did.

Trying to assign blame in any measure to the victims of the Jews, to the people the Jews chose to make their victims is the kind of thing we do not accept from either children or sociopaths.

Quote:
As I said before "He started it" is bullshit and does nothing to solve the current problem BOTH contribute to.

Jews DID start it. People cannot travel thousands of miles, settle in a foreign country, terrorize the native population, openly discuss plans to expel them from their land and steal their property and then claim innocence. "He hit me back!" is an excuse every parent has heard and none accept except for those who spoil their children and are secretly proud of raising bullies.

Quote:
You are out of your fucking mind if you think that there are no Muslims at all bent on the genocide of Jews.

Using the G word is not a trump card. I gave the only legal definition of the word and to which Israel has agreed by signing the UN Treaty on Genocide. The Jewish treatment of Palestinians is included in that definition.

Quote:
And you are out of your mind if you think all Jews are bent on the genocide of Muslims just because their government uses overkill to solve problems.

Jews can go back where they came from. Jews knew what life would be like. Jews knew the rightful owners of the land would never agree to let the thieves keep what they stole. They knew their victims had the absolute and unfettered right to use deadly force against them in any manner and at any time.

Please stop pretending Jews were so stupid they did not know what they were doing.

Those who were born there can curse their parents for being as stupid as you pretend they were.

Quote:
The problem IS caused by religion and until BOTH sides accept that, and deal with it, this conflict will continue.

Your ignorance is incredible. The native Jews of Palestine were opposed to the Zionists and to the foundation of Israel. They had no conflict with their fellow Muslim or Christian Palestinians. The Zionists bought their silence by giving them control over religious matters in Israel. There is ZERO evidence of any religious basis for the conflict. There was none before the Zionists arrived.

The earliest resistance to the Zionists was organized by CHRISTIAN Palestinians. After 1948 the resistance was again organized by Christians. They were not called terrorists when they did it. It was only after Muslims started taking the lead that they were called terrorists. You really should take the time to learn what you are talking about.

The conflict is simply over the theft of land and lawful rights in property. The claim to justice is the same that Jews make for WWII matters.

However, you are free to demonstrate a religious basis for the conflict should you wish to waste your time in the attempt. Should you fail to demonstrate it please have the honesty to stop making a claim you know if deliberately false.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:
UpstateNYatheist wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
And do not be fooled in thinking that if Israel suddenly caved in and gave into every demand of the Palestinian leadership, that suddenly Palestine would become a model westernized pluralistic society, it would not. It would become another Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.  Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?  If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or  any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.

As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

So if a tribe in Africa or South America is into canibalism we should put up with it?

Blood libel works. Knew we should have eliminated those jewish cannibals when we found they were murdering Christian children to eat their blood.

Quote:
If a nation of Muslims want to oppress their women and minorities we should put up with it?

Two groups stone Jews who pray at the Wailing Wall, Muslims and Jews. It was then I learned the holy holocaust was no worse than women praying at the Wailing Wall. You were saying something about theocratic?

Quote:
I would agree that one cannot save the world, but when any tribe or nation's backwards crap infects others I think we have every right to react.

Not even the Tikkun Olim fruitcakes can save the world despite their irrepressible egos.

That said, the owners of land have every right to use deadly force to regain ownership of the land even when the murdering thieves are self-declared Jews even the fake atheist ones.

Quote:
Palestine if it wants "self determination" has to get with the modern world and stop living in a theocratic past.

I did invite you to produce evidence of these theocracy allegations. You failed to do so. Is there a reason I should know conclude you know you are lying when you say things like this?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
What's your idea of resolution? Should all the Jews leave and Palestine only be populated with Palestinian Arabs? Do you argue there were no Jews in Palestine pre-partition?

The gotcha! again. It is not as though I have not responded a dozen times, receiving only silence in response, just to have the same question raised again and again. If you have a problem with the following, the same response I have given so many times, at least have the courtesy to reply to it not bring up the "gotcha" again.

So far as I am aware no one dictated to South Africa how to make amends for their backwards, anti-western behavior. It is not up to anyone to dictate the terms.

But as with South Africa it is incumbent upon the nations of the earth to cease supporting behavior of which it does not approve. On top of an end to active support of Israel a regime of boycott, divestment and sanctions as were applied to South Africa should be instigated. Additionally making financial transfers to Israel or Israelis should be criminalized.

With this it will be up to the Jews to find a solution that will satisfy the world. No gotcha here. It is up to Israelis to solve their own problems. And like Botha, he has to keep guessing as to what will satisfy the world.

Quote:
My Grandfather was in Palestine during WWI with General Allenby and he talked about the strangeness of Arab and Jewish villages, sitting side by side - completely separate from one another. 

Who were these Jews? How long did they need to live in Palestine to be considered citizens?

What kind of question was that back in those days? They were ruled by the Ottoman Turks, Jews, Muslims and Christians. There were no citizens.

Quote:
Bear in mind, my position is that Israel/Palestine should be a shared state with equal citizenship for all. I'm not holding my breath for this. 

In any case, I can't help thinking your position is probably one in which the Israelis leave - is this right? I am putting words in your mouth, I know, so do correct me. 

For the n-time I have stated what needs be done. The Europeans who went to live there knew exactly what it would be like to live there. They chose it. They can choose what to do after the boycotts and sanctions are in place. It is called free will.


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:

Listen to you. "They justified slavery at one time"

Why are you pointing at others. No nation is a "saint" ever. But pointing at others transgressions does nothing for the reality of the need to clean ones own house first.

Whatever blood libels you wish to throw around the Palestinians are not operating a despotic tyranny over another people. End the occupation NOW!

Despite your blood libels, Israel is in fact operating an occupation in a manner that was found to be a hanging offense at Nuremberg. The JEWS running the occupation deserve no less for their tyranny.

As for advanced, inside Israel the country is about as advanced as the Alabama of George Wallace in the 1950s making its racist policies anathema to the West. That is a fact.

One does have to ask just how advanced a country is that does not have civil marriage bearing in mind that Israel does not have civil marriage because the rabbis will not permit it -- you were saying about a theocracy?

What can you say about a country whose only claim to fame it the Jaffa orange, developed by Palestinians, grown on Palestinian land with Palestinian labor?

Quote:
Between the two sides Palestine is much more socially backwards compared to the west.

So is Israel despite its hasbara campaign. However the Palestinians are at least as advanced as Turkey, a member of NATO. Unlike Israel, the PA does not discriminate on the basis of religion. The PA permits both spouses to live in the PA unlike Israel.

Quote:
Whatever rightful complaints and criticisms EVEN THE WEST has of Israel, should not be used as an excuse for Palestinians to use violence as a political tactic themselves.

I thought I asked you for evidence they were using violence AFTER they renounced their lawful right to use deadly force against the occupying country. I do not recall a reply. Perhaps you have an excuse for continuing to make an allegation you know to be false. I would like to hear it.

Quote:
No it does NOT deserve independence, not with it's current attitude towards Jews and the west. I feel sorry for the secular Arabs and Muslims who are victims of location, but I do not feel sorry for the powers that control Palestine or the other theocracies that fund their attitude.

And of course the half million CRIMINAL jewish squatters in occupied territories and their economic plunder of those territories has nothing to do with it.

And until the Palestinians start loving those war criminal squatters and their terrorism and rapine behavior they do not deserve to be free of the criminals.

You really are backing a dead horse. You are supporting war criminals where the known punishment is death by hanging.

You are backing murderers. Just a week ago Palestinian refugees from Syria attempted to enter occupied Syria. The Jews opened fire on them. Murderers to the core.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Brian37

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Listen to you. "They justified slavery at one time"

Why are you pointing at others. No nation is a "saint" ever. But pointing at others transgressions does nothing for the reality of the need to clean ones own house first.

Whatever blood libels you wish to throw around the Palestinians are not operating a despotic tyranny over another people. End the occupation NOW!

Despite your blood libels, Israel is in fact operating an occupation in a manner that was found to be a hanging offense at Nuremberg. The JEWS running the occupation deserve no less for their tyranny.

As for advanced, inside Israel the country is about as advanced as the Alabama of George Wallace in the 1950s making its racist policies anathema to the West. That is a fact.

One does have to ask just how advanced a country is that does not have civil marriage bearing in mind that Israel does not have civil marriage because the rabbis will not permit it -- you were saying about a theocracy?

What can you say about a country whose only claim to fame it the Jaffa orange, developed by Palestinians, grown on Palestinian land with Palestinian labor?

Quote:
Between the two sides Palestine is much more socially backwards compared to the west.

So is Israel despite its hasbara campaign. However the Palestinians are at least as advanced as Turkey, a member of NATO. Unlike Israel, the PA does not discriminate on the basis of religion. The PA permits both spouses to live in the PA unlike Israel.

Quote:
Whatever rightful complaints and criticisms EVEN THE WEST has of Israel, should not be used as an excuse for Palestinians to use violence as a political tactic themselves.

I thought I asked you for evidence they were using violence AFTER they renounced their lawful right to use deadly force against the occupying country. I do not recall a reply. Perhaps you have an excuse for continuing to make an allegation you know to be false. I would like to hear it.

Quote:
No it does NOT deserve independence, not with it's current attitude towards Jews and the west. I feel sorry for the secular Arabs and Muslims who are victims of location, but I do not feel sorry for the powers that control Palestine or the other theocracies that fund their attitude.

And of course the half million CRIMINAL jewish squatters in occupied territories and their economic plunder of those territories has nothing to do with it.

And until the Palestinians start loving those war criminal squatters and their terrorism and rapine behavior they do not deserve to be free of the criminals.

You really are backing a dead horse. You are supporting war criminals where the known punishment is death by hanging.

You are backing murderers. Just a week ago Palestinian refugees from Syria attempted to enter occupied Syria. The Jews opened fire on them. Murderers to the core.

 

 

Stop it.

SERIOUSLY, I have not let lose on you as much as I really want to right now.

I am NOT backing murderers. I am seeing a bigger picture of an ongoing history in which BOTH sides are guilty of transgressions.

YOU have been brainwashed into the motif of the virtue of the minority.

YOU again have your head up your ass if you think that Hammas or Hesbolah would set up a pluralistic government. They would NOT protect my right to say that Allah doesn't exist.

IF they got a nation it would look like Saudi Arabia or Iran, and no one who doesn't suck up to Allah would have any rights under the government the would set up.

Whatever wrong Israel does NOT give you an excuse to prop up a theocratic society.

GROW THE FUCK UP!

YOU are not going to make this out to be either or and you are not going to falsely accuse me of blindly supporting Israel which I do not by any stretch.

I have called out Israel on several occasions when they have done clearly what was wrong, but that does not, nor will change the theocratic goals of the current leaders of Palestine.

Is that what you want? You want a Palestinian nation that doesnt give a shit about dissent, that would not elect a Jew or atheist or Christian or Buddhist to office? You think piece should come at the sacrifice of pluralism and protection of the human rights of all?

HAMMAS AND HESBOLAH ARE NOT FUCKING INTERESTED IN PLURALISM, and as long as Palestine is ruled by these dickheads any secular Arab or secular Muslim who supports them is fucking themselves INCLUDING YOUR sappy ignorant swallowing of "virtue of the oppressed".

THEY WOULD NOT TREAT A NON-MUSLIM OF ANY LABEL kindly if they got a nation. So if you truely value the secular in Palestine that are their hostages, you need to get your fucking head out of your ass.

You want to keep giving Israel an excuse not to care, your doing a damn good fucking job.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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By your reasoning, because I

By your reasoning, because I don't want to give America back to Native Americans, I am a war criminal, via guilt by association. Do you really think that every single Israeli always agrees with everything their government does. You do know that it was a JEW who assassinate Sadat.

I HATED Sharone and I hate Benjamen Neton fuckwad. But just like we as atheists do not want every single atheist lumped together, I don't lump all Palestinians together simply because I might not like who is currently leading them.

THERE ARE online groups of Jews that agree that Palestine should have it's own nation. My only warning to those groups is to not let the current powers create that nation. You would not, nor should not want that if you value secularism and pluralism.

MY ADVICE TO YOU AND TO ISRAEL is to stop dwelling in the past and stop the blame game and clean your own house.

The only real conspiracy going on is fear and paranoia. But please stop this bullshit of fooling yourself that if Palestine got a nation it would protect the rights of non-Muslims. I DO blame Israel for it's overkill in sending a majority of Palestinians into the hands of the theocratic nujobs who don't care about pluralism.

YOU dont bite the hand that feeds you, that does not mean that if a hand feeds you, that it cares about pluralism.

NOW knock off the bullshit. Get Hesbolah and Hammas to proclaim it will set up a government that protects the rights of minorities and protects political dissent. Good luck with that.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.  Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?  If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or  any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.

As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

So if a tribe in Africa or South America is into canibalism we should put up with it? If a nation of Muslims want to oppress their women and minorities we should put up with it?

I would agree that one cannot save the world, but when any tribe or nation's backwards crap infects others I think we have every right to react.

Palestine if it wants "self determination" has to get with the modern world and stop living in a theocratic past.

 

 

Where have you been?  We do put up with it, to the extent that we "allow" countries who do so (for the most part) to maintain their sovereignty.  And theocracy isn't a thing of the past, especially in that part of the world.  When in any other instance has a sufficiently progressive way of thinking been the condition for independence and basic human rights?  How absurd.

 

I thought I was pretty clear: any illegal or unsavory action should be dealt with according to the rules with which we deal with all the other countries--diplomacy, foreign aid, sanctions, military action, ect.  By all means capture and imprison or execute the terrorists; punish those who incite the violence.  Palestine is applying in September for membership to the UN, and no doubt this comes with many social and moral strings attached, with well-outline consequences for breaking them. These are justifiable "reactions"; indefinite occupation of an entire people is not.  

 

The same kind of argument about "unadvanced" peoples not "deserving" independence was used by those who advocated slavery.  Slaveholders argued that blacks were better off as slaves because, as a people, they had no self-control or ability to structure their own lives--it was necessary for the wiser, more advanced whites to bully and cudgel them into living worthwhile, productive lives.  The fact that many slaves may have lacked these skills because these same owners made sure they never had the opportunity to develop them was an irony completely lost on them.

 

You can't withhold from Palestine the means to grow and progress as an independent society, and then justify yourself by saying that their society hasn't progressed far enough for them to deserve their independence.  Mull that phrase over in your head for a while, and see if it doesn't start to nauseate you: deserve their independence.  For how long have these people been colonized and relocated, fought over and fought among themselves?  How desperate must they be by now?  And you so condescendingly tell them to just "get with the modern world"!  Have you any idea how these people actually live, and how little anything they experience resembles what we would call the modern world?

Listen to you. "They justified slavery at one time"

Why are you pointing at others. No nation is a "saint" ever. But pointing at others transgressions does nothing for the reality of the need to clean ones own house first.

Between the two sides Palestine is much more socially backwards compared to the west. Whatever rightful complaints and criticisms EVEN THE WEST has of Israel, should not be used as an excuse for Palestinians to use violence as a political tactic themselves.

No it does NOT deserve independence, not with it's current attitude towards Jews and the west. I feel sorry for the secular Arabs and Muslims who are victims of location, but I do not feel sorry for the powers that control Palestine or the other theocracies that fund their attitude.

I'd suggest you go live in Palestine or Saudi Arabia or Iran before you go around claiming that a bunch of bloodthirsty Muslim nutjobs deserve a nation.

Again, I have every sympathy for those whose only goal is to live in a violence free environment. I have no sympathy for those who think terrorism and violence will get them a nation.

These Muslim nuts WOULD NOT if they were given a nation, give one ratts ass about Jews OR non-Mulsims. They wouild not extend equal rights to religious or political minorities.

I think you are far to used to living in an open society and take it for granted.

There is no conspiracy here. There are two sides, one is westernized and modern. The other is tribal and theocratic.

I have no doubt there ARE Muslims who simply want peace and don't want their land taken from them. I have no doubt there are Muslims who simply want jobs and food and shelter. But as long as they are ruled by people who suck the dick of Allah and would not give equal rights to minorities, their LEADERS will never get my sympathy.

Instead of pointing fingers, I think it is hypocritical to say "their senhit stinks" and do shitty things yourself. You want Palestine to be the "bigger man" and to be "above that", I don't see it. I see them using Israel's transgressions as an excuse to cling to a theocratic past.

They can get my support as soon as their leaders denounce lobbing rockets into Israel and denounce suicide bombings and denounce any and all demands for the end of Israel. They need to get off their bullshit theocratic past.

The violence has not worked and will not work. All it does is piss of Israel even more and gives them even more reason to not give a fuck about whom they hurt.

 

 

I'm afraid you don't seem to have read my post at all.  What are you even trying to say by quoting "They justified slavery at one time"?  I didn't even use that phrase in my response; I honestly don't understand. 

 

I'm not simply cataloging the wrongs of the west by pointing to the attitudes of those who enslaved Africans and other blacks; I'm pointing out that you, with your absurd arguments that people need to earn there human rights, believe the same things that they do.  The whole point of calling them human rights is that they don't have to be earned--everyone has them, and everyone must respect them.  Period.

Recap: not judging the western world.  Just your incoherent argument.  

Please re-read my post and provide a coherent response.

"You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means."
--Inigo Montoya


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UpstateNYatheist

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

UpstateNYatheist wrote:

It seems like the argument for Israel keeps coming back to the veiled assertion that Palestine deserves to be, or is at least better off being occupied because it's society is not as advanced and progressive as that of Israel.  Shouldn't small peoples have the right to self-determination, whatever they actually do determine?  If after liberation Palestine becomes a safe harbor for terrorists or engages in human rights violations or  any other illegal behavior, by all means we should take action to rectify that--it doesn't excuse--or even mitigate, imo--an ongoing occupation.  Democratic, pluralistic societies (adjective that are not inherently western, btw) are not born overnight, they develop--and occupation/oppression doesn't speed up the process at all but rather slows things down significantly.

As to Israel being such a progressive society, I was under the impression that the government had been incredibly conservative and reactionary for some time; can anyone out there more knowledgeable confirm or refute this?  I do not mean to imply that it is a totalitarian or terrorist regime.

So if a tribe in Africa or South America is into canibalism we should put up with it? If a nation of Muslims want to oppress their women and minorities we should put up with it?

I would agree that one cannot save the world, but when any tribe or nation's backwards crap infects others I think we have every right to react.

Palestine if it wants "self determination" has to get with the modern world and stop living in a theocratic past.

 

 

Where have you been?  We do put up with it, to the extent that we "allow" countries who do so (for the most part) to maintain their sovereignty.  And theocracy isn't a thing of the past, especially in that part of the world.  When in any other instance has a sufficiently progressive way of thinking been the condition for independence and basic human rights?  How absurd.

 

I thought I was pretty clear: any illegal or unsavory action should be dealt with according to the rules with which we deal with all the other countries--diplomacy, foreign aid, sanctions, military action, ect.  By all means capture and imprison or execute the terrorists; punish those who incite the violence.  Palestine is applying in September for membership to the UN, and no doubt this comes with many social and moral strings attached, with well-outline consequences for breaking them. These are justifiable "reactions"; indefinite occupation of an entire people is not.  

 

The same kind of argument about "unadvanced" peoples not "deserving" independence was used by those who advocated slavery.  Slaveholders argued that blacks were better off as slaves because, as a people, they had no self-control or ability to structure their own lives--it was necessary for the wiser, more advanced whites to bully and cudgel them into living worthwhile, productive lives.  The fact that many slaves may have lacked these skills because these same owners made sure they never had the opportunity to develop them was an irony completely lost on them.

 

You can't withhold from Palestine the means to grow and progress as an independent society, and then justify yourself by saying that their society hasn't progressed far enough for them to deserve their independence.  Mull that phrase over in your head for a while, and see if it doesn't start to nauseate you: deserve their independence.  For how long have these people been colonized and relocated, fought over and fought among themselves?  How desperate must they be by now?  And you so condescendingly tell them to just "get with the modern world"!  Have you any idea how these people actually live, and how little anything they experience resembles what we would call the modern world?

Listen to you. "They justified slavery at one time"

Why are you pointing at others. No nation is a "saint" ever. But pointing at others transgressions does nothing for the reality of the need to clean ones own house first.

Between the two sides Palestine is much more socially backwards compared to the west. Whatever rightful complaints and criticisms EVEN THE WEST has of Israel, should not be used as an excuse for Palestinians to use violence as a political tactic themselves.

No it does NOT deserve independence, not with it's current attitude towards Jews and the west. I feel sorry for the secular Arabs and Muslims who are victims of location, but I do not feel sorry for the powers that control Palestine or the other theocracies that fund their attitude.

I'd suggest you go live in Palestine or Saudi Arabia or Iran before you go around claiming that a bunch of bloodthirsty Muslim nutjobs deserve a nation.

Again, I have every sympathy for those whose only goal is to live in a violence free environment. I have no sympathy for those who think terrorism and violence will get them a nation.

These Muslim nuts WOULD NOT if they were given a nation, give one ratts ass about Jews OR non-Mulsims. They wouild not extend equal rights to religious or political minorities.

I think you are far to used to living in an open society and take it for granted.

There is no conspiracy here. There are two sides, one is westernized and modern. The other is tribal and theocratic.

I have no doubt there ARE Muslims who simply want peace and don't want their land taken from them. I have no doubt there are Muslims who simply want jobs and food and shelter. But as long as they are ruled by people who suck the dick of Allah and would not give equal rights to minorities, their LEADERS will never get my sympathy.

Instead of pointing fingers, I think it is hypocritical to say "their senhit stinks" and do shitty things yourself. You want Palestine to be the "bigger man" and to be "above that", I don't see it. I see them using Israel's transgressions as an excuse to cling to a theocratic past.

They can get my support as soon as their leaders denounce lobbing rockets into Israel and denounce suicide bombings and denounce any and all demands for the end of Israel. They need to get off their bullshit theocratic past.

The violence has not worked and will not work. All it does is piss of Israel even more and gives them even more reason to not give a fuck about whom they hurt.

 

 

I'm afraid you don't seem to have read my post at all.  What are you even trying to say by quoting "They justified slavery at one time"?  I didn't even use that phrase in my response; I honestly don't understand. 

 

I'm not simply cataloging the wrongs of the west by pointing to the attitudes of those who enslaved Africans and other blacks; I'm pointing out that you, with your absurd arguments that people need to earn there human rights, believe the same things that they do.  The whole point of calling them human rights is that they don't have to be earned--everyone has them, and everyone must respect them.  Period.

Recap: not judging the western world.  Just your incoherent argument.  

Please re-read my post and provide a coherent response.

"MUST RESPECT"

You sound like a theist.

YOU want to falsely accuse me of not giving a shit about the Palestinians.

What I will not do is support any asperations of people who would not value the same pluralism I do.

Answer this simple question yes or no.

WOULD HESBOLAH OR HAMMAS if given a nation give the same rights to non-Muslims you claim are being denied to them? Can you see a future Palestine where a Muslim, Jew, Christian and atheist serve in the same government? Can you see that? If you can, please pass that crack pipe, it must be good.

The answer is NO, they would not and you damned well know that.

I give a shit about the secular Palestinians which is why I want better for them than the current leadership they turn to. You are still stuck on the virtue of the minority. The problem is they should want better for themselves than the leadership they falsely depend on, which ISRAEL isn't helping by pushing them to the leadership they, themselves should not want.

Israel is fucking themselves by overreacting and thinking they are entitled to everything but neither side in the ENTIRE history is doing themselves any service.

It is not black and white and neither side to me is doing anything surprising but I damned sure wish it would stop.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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 dp


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Resolution

 

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
What's your idea of resolution? Should all the Jews leave and Palestine only be populated with Palestinian Arabs? Do you argue there were no Jews in Palestine pre-partition?

The gotcha! again. It is not as though I have not responded a dozen times, receiving only silence in response, just to have the same question raised again and again. If you have a problem with the following, the same response I have given so many times, at least have the courtesy to reply to it not bring up the "gotcha" again.

So far as I am aware no one dictated to South Africa how to make amends for their backwards, anti-western behavior. It is not up to anyone to dictate the terms.

But as with South Africa it is incumbent upon the nations of the earth to cease supporting behavior of which it does not approve. On top of an end to active support of Israel a regime of boycott, divestment and sanctions as were applied to South Africa should be instigated. Additionally making financial transfers to Israel or Israelis should be criminalized.

With this it will be up to the Jews to find a solution that will satisfy the world. No gotcha here. It is up to Israelis to solve their own problems. And like Botha, he has to keep guessing as to what will satisfy the world.

 

 

Quote:
My Grandfather was in Palestine during WWI with General Allenby and he talked about the strangeness of Arab and Jewish villages, sitting side by side - completely separate from one another. 

Who were these Jews? How long did they need to live in Palestine to be considered citizens?

What kind of question was that back in those days? They were ruled by the Ottoman Turks, Jews, Muslims and Christians. There were no citizens.

 

 

Quote:
Bear in mind, my position is that Israel/Palestine should be a shared state with equal citizenship for all. I'm not holding my breath for this. 

In any case, I can't help thinking your position is probably one in which the Israelis leave - is this right? I am putting words in your mouth, I know, so do correct me. 

For the n-time I have stated what needs be done. The Europeans who went to live there knew exactly what it would be like to live there. They chose it. They can choose what to do after the boycotts and sanctions are in place. It is called free will.

 

 

No gotcha at all. Given your choice of language and obvious dislike of Israel - with your Izzy-Huggers and all - I simply wondered. It's pretty obvious what would happen if these 2 populations were put together. I wonder if you'd be so defensive of Jews, however, if the roles were reversed, or worse? 

Does your point about the Ottoman Empire mean there were no French citizens during the Third Reich, or Britons during the Roman occupation, no Australian Aborigines after Britain invaded in 1788? There obviously were people living there and some were obviously Palestinian Jews and others were obviously Palestinian Muslims. Your position seems insufficiently nuanced to me.

I don't have a great problem with a more insistent demand for shared nationhood and equality of citizenship as long as it's not a blood bath. Experience suggests that's exactly what it would be. I expect you'd be insisting both sides conform to the International Charter of Human Rights and intending to intervene if they did not?  

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 @ Brian (nested quotes

 @ Brian (nested quotes were really starting to annoy me):

 

Lay off the crack yourself.  

 

1)An ethical imperative is not a theology.  Insisting that we must respect everyone's basic human rights does not, in fact, make me a theist.  It makes me a humanist.  Please refer to my signature.

 

2)Your question is irrelevant; I keep making the same argument, and you keep refusing to respond to it.  People can't be denied their human rights because you decide that they are members of an unenlightened society.  Punish the terrorist; stop occupying the civilians.  End of story.

 

Small thought experiment (iow, this is pretend-a rhetorical device, not what I think should actually be done): Say I decide that Israel is violating the human rights of innocent civilians and living on stolen land, and that they have lost the privilege of being considered human beings.  I invade Israel, justifying my continual exploitation of its people and its land by saying:

 

"Well, you don't really think that they would have done any different would you?  In fact, they'd probably do something worse.  What's that you say?  You say that what I just said is irrelevant to the fact that my own actions are unjustifiable?  Shut up and go smoke your hookah!"

 

Terrorist and violently extreme Muslim leaders use this argument against Israel; you turn it around and use it against Palestine.

 

3)You seem to think I'm attacking you personally, or saying that Israel has no right to exist.  I'm not.  I'm making an argument, and so far you have failed to respond to it coherently.

 

@Athiestextremist, I agree that the two populations will not work well together; the two state solution makes the most sense, I think.

"You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means."
--Inigo Montoya


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.

Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
What's your idea of resolution? Should all the Jews leave and Palestine only be populated with Palestinian Arabs? Do you argue there were no Jews in Palestine pre-partition?

The gotcha! again. It is not as though I have not responded a dozen times, receiving only silence in response, just to have the same question raised again and again. If you have a problem with the following, the same response I have given so many times, at least have the courtesy to reply to it not bring up the "gotcha" again.

So far as I am aware no one dictated to South Africa how to make amends for their backwards, anti-western behavior. It is not up to anyone to dictate the terms.

But as with South Africa it is incumbent upon the nations of the earth to cease supporting behavior of which it does not approve. On top of an end to active support of Israel a regime of boycott, divestment and sanctions as were applied to South Africa should be instigated. Additionally making financial transfers to Israel or Israelis should be criminalized.

With this it will be up to the Jews to find a solution that will satisfy the world. No gotcha here. It is up to Israelis to solve their own problems. And like Botha, he has to keep guessing as to what will satisfy the world.

Quote:
My Grandfather was in Palestine during WWI with General Allenby and he talked about the strangeness of Arab and Jewish villages, sitting side by side - completely separate from one another. 

Who were these Jews? How long did they need to live in Palestine to be considered citizens?

What kind of question was that back in those days? They were ruled by the Ottoman Turks, Jews, Muslims and Christians. There were no citizens.

Quote:
Bear in mind, my position is that Israel/Palestine should be a shared state with equal citizenship for all. I'm not holding my breath for this. 

In any case, I can't help thinking your position is probably one in which the Israelis leave - is this right? I am putting words in your mouth, I know, so do correct me. 

For the n-time I have stated what needs be done. The Europeans who went to live there knew exactly what it would be like to live there. They chose it. They can choose what to do after the boycotts and sanctions are in place. It is called free will.

No gotcha at all. Given your choice of language and obvious dislike of Israel - with your Izzy-Huggers and all - I simply wondered. It's pretty obvious what would happen if these 2 populations were put together.

But they are together in the occupied territories. We have seen the criminal squatters, criminal by their very presence and criminal by their behavior. We know it requires the total suppression of all human rights for the Palestinians. It requires constant military suppression, home destruction, land destruction, land theft, punishment for self defense against the criminal squatters. It requires arrests in the middle of the night, using them as human shields by the cowardly IDF, collective punishment, total subjegation to a military dictatorship including military courts where they have no rights at all. Economic exploitation of the land. STEALING 3/4 of the water resources pumping to Israel and leaving the the Palestinians below the UN established minimum water supply.

There is more if you really want to go into it.

Quote:
I wonder if you'd be so defensive of Jews, however, if the roles were reversed, or worse?

I have no idea. Lets have Israel live under a foreign tyranny for 44 years living under the conditions the Jews for Palestinians to live as outlined above before we discuss it. Unless of course you think Jews would have exactly the same objections as Palestinians and exactly the same right to demand it end. If so we have nothing to discuss.

An izziehugger is a person who sees no problem with the way Palestinians are treated by Jews but would be the first to squeal at the suggestion Jews should be treated that way. YOU see no problem with the treatment of the Palestinians.

End the occupation. Get the damned squatters out. Stop stealing the water. Izziehuggers love stealing water from Palestinians.

Quote:
Does your point about the Ottoman Empire mean there were no French citizens during the Third Reich, or Britons during the Roman occupation, no Australian Aborigines after Britain invaded in 1788? There obviously were people living there and some were obviously Palestinian Jews and others were obviously Palestinian Muslims. Your position seems insufficiently nuanced to me.

My position is based upon the simple fact that should be well known that the western idea of citizenship was INVENTED by the Treaty of Westphalia as a means of ending centuries of wars based upon religious affiliation. Why would you expect to find a western definition in effect in an eastern country which after centuries of peace and over a thousand years of no wars of religion, did not have a problem in need of a solution to have the western legal concept of citizenship?

Quote:
I don't have a great problem with a more insistent demand for shared nationhood and equality of citizenship as long as it's not a blood bath. Experience suggests that's exactly what it would be. I expect you'd be insisting both sides conform to the International Charter of Human Rights and intending to intervene if they did not?

Bloodbath was the white, South African excuse for holding out so long. Funny how supremacists always have the same nonsense that never happens. Funny in the pathetic sense that there are some people immature enough to fall for it.

Those of us who have looked at the real history of Zionism in Palestine know, despite the lies told by izziehuggers, that the zionists started the bloodbaths in the 1920s. The currently dominant party is in fact the one that loves to murder non-Jews. That is the fact of the real history of Palestine and zionists.

So you raise a red herring as those who love blood are presently in charge and are still getting enough to keep their lust in check as long as they get a rampage every few years such as in Gaza and Lebanon.

However the BDS regime as was applied to South Africa can simply require Israel retreat to its 1948 borders and compensate the refugees to the same level justice that Israel demands Germany compensate Jews for WWII.

End the occupation instead of making up reasons to continue the jewish tyranny.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Yes, well.

 

 

I'm all for one state and equal citizenship and mutual respect, effort, etc - I take no pleasure in the current situation and agree the squatters/settlers are a bizarre element to the situation - a sort of March of the Orangemen as it were. Personally, I think the settlers simply negate the possibility of a workable 2-state solution and we know one state will not work.

Nevertheless, without intense security there's no doubt that there'd be civil war and an outbreak of terrorism and reprisals on both sides spinning on and on pretty much forever. You are simply being obtuse denying this. 

Clearly, both sides have a history of violence against each other but there are still 1.5 million arabs living peacefully in Israel yet no more than a few hundred jews in any given muslim nation - whether that be Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon or Saudi Arabia. How is this possible? Surely the evil jews should have murdered all the yucky Israeli arabs or driven them all out? Or did those 700,000 Palestinians leave in 1948 of their own volition after refusing to live under Jewish rule despite the fact they lived under Turkish and British rule without immigrating?

Maybe they believed the Arab armies would crush Israel? Had they stayed, history suggests, they would be living fairly normal lives in Palestinian muslim areas of an Israel that would be very like Palestine used to be - Jews and Muslims living in separate areas doing business with each other in relative harmony but governed by some one else. Perhaps this is the best we can hope for.  

We should also bear in mind that around 800,000 jews were asked to leave, fled or were expelled from middle eastern islamic nations from 1948 until the 1970s. I've not heard you speak out against that injustice yet. I assume most left houses, businesses, temples, graves. Perhaps you argue these Middle Eastern Jews - they formed about half the entire immigrant population of Israel - were not Lebanese, not Iraqi, not Yemeni, not Egyptian, not Syrian, not Kurdish. Maybe they were were just native European converts who sneaked into the middle east because they loved the lifestyle? Who were these middle eastern Jews, A-nony? Where did they come from?

We know most the Western and Central European Jews were dead and the few survivors had fled to places like the US, Canada, Australia, Britain so these migrants and the corpses of their families can't be the majority genetic repository of Israel, can they?  

Regardless of all this, I support a one-state solution. But again, I hold no hope of this ever happening. On both sides the religious extremists rule the day. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


A_Nony_Mouse
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So you will never again try to put the onus upon me

to invent the perfect solution else support the disgusting status quo.

Atheistextremist wrote:
I'm all for one state and equal citizenship and mutual respect, effort, etc - I take no pleasure in the current situation and agree the squatters/settlers are a bizarre element to the situation - a sort of March of the Orangemen as it were. Personally, I think the settlers simply negate the possibility of a workable 2-state solution and we know one state will not work.

And they have received full support of the government of Israel from day one back in November 1968. There is no way to absolve Israel of their behavior as Israel has financially encouraged and supported it. Israel cannot be absolved by making them scapegoats. Israel has ALWAYS provided the squattertowns with water, power, roads everything a jewish Israeli would get if they lived in Israel on top of subsidized mortgages and lower tax rates for living outside of Israel.

Back before peace broke out with Jordan when Israel openly admitted it was a military occupation it pretended total ignorance of military matters by claiming the squattertowns were for the defense of Israel thus falling under the military necessity exception for a lawful military occupation. Needless to say, once there was peace, Israel agreed the squatters and squattertowns were war crimes and so it created a new propaganda (hasbara) line for the stupid people to believe.

Rather than bizarre they were deliberately created AS Israeli government officials SAID, to make withdrawal politically impossible. That is impossible to internal Israeli politics which is of no interest to non-Israelis. It has no bearing upon a two state solution to the world. Its only bearing is upon Israel's internal politics. Regardless of those politics, evne if it means civil war, that is of no interest to any country but Israel.

To the world it only matters that its machinations against the Palestinians cannot be rewarded. These were Israel's decisions. Israel lives with the full consequences of them. No one is responsible to save them from themselves. They are not children. No one is responsible for them but themselves.

Quote:
Nevertheless, without intense security there's no doubt that there'd be civil war and an outbreak of terrorism and reprisals on both sides spinning on and on pretty much forever. You are simply being obtuse denying this.

Back to the South African bugaboo. Sorry. I am not a racist. I do not believe the crap you do -- not that I think for a minute you believe it. You are hasbara-ing as usual. Even if it were a real possibility Jews CHOSE it as a possibility. They are not children. They live with the consequences of their choices. It is called being an adult.

Quote:
Clearly, both sides have a history of violence against each other

That remains as false as it was the first time I called you on it and all the times in between down to my last post to you where I called you on it. Please stop repeating crap in hopes I will give up and do along with that nonsense.

Quote:
but there are still 1.5 million arabs living peacefully in Israel

That should tell you something as they do live peacefullyl even though under the same conditions as Blacks in Selma, Alabama, USA a hundred years ago WITHOUT violence of any kind. Jews are perfectly capable of terrorizing their third class citizens to keep them from getting uppity.There was a massacre in 1956 for a curfew violation for example the same year Eisenhower sent troops to Alabama to enforce desegregation.

Quote:
yet no more than a few hundred jews in any given muslim nation - whether that be Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon or Saudi Arabia. How is this possible? Surely the evil jews should have murdered all the yucky Israeli arabs or driven them all out? Or did those 700,000 Palestinians leave in 1948 of their own volition after refusing to live under Jewish rule despite the fact they lived under Turkish and British rule without immigrating?

Is there a limit to the Hasbara (propaganda) you can post? Perhaps not.

As has been well known since the 1990s when Israel declassified material related to 1948, the Palestinian narrative is correct and the zionist terrorists have been telling lies ever since.  Segev, Morris, Shlaim, Pappe, and Flapan all published evidence for the Palestinian narrative, the Nakbah, based upon Israeli records. There is no question the Palestinians are correct and the zionists are bloodthirsty murderers by Israeli records.

I can say I am not surprised you feign ignorance of this well known material. Consider that part of the definition of izziehugger, feigning ignorance, i.e. lying their collective ass off.

Quote:
Maybe they believed the Arab armies would crush Israel? Had they stayed, history suggests, they would be living fairly normal lives in Palestinian muslim areas of an Israel that would be very like Palestine used to be - Jews and Muslims living in separate areas doing business with each other in relative harmony but governed by some one else. Perhaps this is the best we can hope for.

Fact is if they had stayed Jews would have murdered them as Israeli records show. Sorry to have to call your izziehugger bluff with facts in evidence from Israeli records as exposed by historians both jewish and Israeli back in the 1990s. Better late than never.

Do you really think if you keep coming back at me with long discredited crap I will change? The only change you can possibly get is a less polite response regarding your feigning ignorance of the facts and a more condemnatory attitude towards your posting long exposed propaganda, aka Hasbara.

Lying for Zionism is still lying. There is no good in what is false. As Benny Morris (see above) now says, the murders and the expulsions were good because it resulted in Israel. That assumes existence of Israel AND admits the truth of the Palestinians narrative which he documented using Israeli records.

Quote:
We should also bear in mind that around 800,000 jews were asked to leave, fled or were expelled from middle eastern islamic nations from 1948 until the 1970s.

Regardless of the facts of the case they are separate issues.

The facts of the case are well known, that zionists were behind most of it. Bribing Iraqi legislators to pass laws against Jews is well documented. Bombings in those countries by Israelis who also announced they were done by native Jews is also well known. There were a whole mess of similar dirty tricks.

Related to them were the bombings of US facilities in Egypt to turn the US against Egypt but were exposed as Israeli bombings. NEVER underestimate how low a zionist will sink to score political points. They really are Marxists at heart.

Why do you post things you know are so easily exposed? Death wish?

Quote:
I've not heard you speak out against that injustice yet.

1. Jews caused it.

2. Even if not, an unrelated issue.

3. It is a well known Zionist distraction not worthy of consideration.

Is there anything else?

Quote:
I assume most left houses, businesses, temples, graves. Perhaps you argue these Middle Eastern Jews - they formed about half the entire immigrant population of Israel - were not Lebanese, not Iraqi, not Yemeni, not Egyptian, not Syrian, not Kurdish. Maybe they were were just native European converts who sneaked into the middle east because they loved the lifestyle? Who were these middle eastern Jews, A-nony? Where did they come from?

As previous posts have established Jews are a subset of Arabs. What Arabs do to each other is their business. As WE are atheists WE make no distinction based upon which stupid religion stupid people choose.

As WE do not see a difference based upon religion, stupid is as stupid does, therefore I have said ZIONISTS save where Jews have declined to denounce Israel for claiming to speak and act for all Jews. You seem to think you can dredge up something I have not previously debunked. You can't. Stop wasting your time.

Quote:
We know most the Western and Central European Jews were dead and the few survivors had fled to places like the US, Canada, Australia, Britain so these migrants and the corpses of their families can't be the majority genetic repository of Israel, can they?

What we do know is that ALL the Israeli newspapers refer to the European Jews, the Ashkenazim, as the ruling class of Jew in Israel and therefore, despite your "can't be" they are. Take your complaints to the Israeli Jews who do not know what they are talking about.

While discussing the Israeli caste system, Sephardim are 2nd class, Christians/Druze 3rd class and Muslims 4th class.

Quote:
Regardless of all this, I support a one-state solution. But again, I hold no hope of this ever happening. On both sides the religious extremists rule the day. 

I do not give a rat's ass what you support. The issue is solely to bring a resolution in line with the principles of international law.

In this matter Israel is in violation of international law and the full South African treatment needs be applied.

You choose the single state solely because you claim it also means bloodshed and therefore avoidance of bloodshed prohibits a single state. Please, do not appear to be as naive as you hope I am. You are transparent.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Your refusal to concede

 

 

Israel faces any material security threat is bizarre but I can't see any point arguing about it any further. I guess all the past wars, terrorist bombings of civvies, rocket attacks from Lebanon and Gaza and so forth never actually happened.

Muslim countries in the middle east obviously love Israel - they have never threatened to obliterate it and there are no anti-semitic diatribes in the Koran after all. What a relief.

You are not calling me on my position Israel faces violence - you are just ignoring repeated instances of reality. I'm not calling for a one-state solution in order to create a scenario of violence - do you really think attacks on Israel would cease under a 2-state

plan? No matter what happens, Jews and Muslims will fight in the middle east. I like 1 state because it seems beneficent to me - let's have 2 states by all means, I don't care how peace is achieved. 

Unlike you, I think both sides are culpable. You seem to see jews as the problem entire. When arabs attack Israel you say the jews caused it. When arabs are displaced, jews are evil. When jews are displaced, jews are evil. You talk about elevation of international law but seem to want to apply it arbitrarily. 

Apply international law to both sides by all means. Make all the people who live in Palestine treat each other as brothers and live in equality and harmony. Force them to do it. Make jewish and muslim palestinians stop killing each other and threatening each

other. Make the UN Charter of Human Rights the merged nation's bible. If all this is applied to both sides justly and in equal measure, great. Just tell me how. Alternatively, select some borders and recognise 2 nations. 

Now, I'm clearly just shooting from the hip but you see my opinion - which is that Jews have historical and genetic claim to live in Palestine and they face a material threat there  that makes them defensive - as the transparent peddling of Israeli propaganda.

Your pointed suspicion is interesting. Do you really believe the Jews manufactured persecution in middle eastern countries just to increase their body count? I've never heard of such a thing. What is the proof for this?

And no, I don't think your position will ever change on this, I don't think you will ever agree with anything I say - regardless of the fact Israel's behaviour is reprehensible and cannot be condoned, it's obvious you are an anti-semite. The entire middle east is

merrily fucking the UN Charter of Human Rights square up the arse so let's hear your thoughts on some other countries whose human rights violations exceed those of Israel. Let's start with Syria, Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq then move

over to those cauldrons of pestilence, the Sudan and Somalia. Do you have web sites devoted to exposing the evils of Saudi Arabia's religious empire, an empire has obliterated countless ancient cultures? No, I thought not. 

And another thing, A-nony. Americans stole the land and the owners want it back. So did Australians, So did Canadians, so did Polynesians, Native Americans, Cro-magnons, chimpanzees, sea squirts and any other group of organisms who ever cast an

appraising eye over the valley next door. If you seriously think theft of land is all anyone needs to know about Israel it's pretty obvious what your position really is. 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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When out of facts try to make it personal

Atheistextremist wrote:
Israel faces any material security threat is bizarre but I can't see any point arguing about it any further. I guess all the past wars, terrorist bombings of civvies, rocket attacks from Lebanon and Gaza and so forth never actually happened.

End the occupation of both Lebanon and Gaza and the West Bank and East Jerusalem and then lawful right to attack the occupying power goes away. But pretend there is no occupation because Israel is the only country in the world that says there is no occupation. Who ya gonna trust? The occupying power or the rest of the world? The former obviously. Don't forget occupied Syria while we are on the subject.

Quote:
Muslim countries in the middle east obviously love Israel - they have never threatened to obliterate it and there are no anti-semitic diatribes in the Koran after all. What a relief.

Why bring up issues which have nothing to do with the occupation? To attempt to divert the issue from the subject being discusssed of course.

Quote:
You are not calling me on my position Israel faces violence - you are just ignoring repeated instances of reality. I'm not calling for a one-state solution in order to create a scenario of violence - do you really think attacks on Israel would cease under a 2-state plan? No matter what happens, Jews and Muslims will fight in the middle east. I like 1 state because it seems beneficent to me - let's have 2 states by all means, I don't care how peace is achieved.

I said you are supporting a one state solution so you can give reasons why it cannot be done. One state or two state has nothing to do with the lawful right of the occupied to attack the occupier's country. As we know it was the European Jews who started the fighting after 1300 years of no fighting between Muslims and Jews including the jewish generals who lead armies fighting alongside Mohamed.

Only after Israel ends the occupation will it have a moral right to self defense. At the moment suppressing that lawful right constitutes another war crime for each instance.

Quote:
Unlike you, I think both sides are culpable. You seem to see jews as the problem entire. When arabs attack Israel you say the jews caused it. When arabs are displaced, jews are evil. When jews are displaced, jews are evil. You talk about elevation of international law but seem to want to apply it arbitrarily.

The Europeans are certainly culpable by their own records and their own statements of which there are many. The victims of the european Jews have a lawful right to self defense.

Quote:
Apply international law to both sides by all means. Make all the people who live in Palestine treat each other as brothers and live in equality and harmony. Force them to do it. Make jewish and muslim palestinians stop killing each other and threatening each other. Make the UN Charter of Human Rights the merged nation's bible. If all this is applied to both sides justly and in equal measure, great. Just tell me how. Alternatively, select some borders and recognise 2 nations.

International law has ALWAYS treated what a country does to its own citizens as different from what a country does to people who are not its citizens. That it why it takes izziehuggers lots of practice before a mirror learning not the giggle when they try to compare citizens and non-citizens -- non-citizens such as the Palestinians and Lebanese and Syrians.

You will also note revolution within several countries is being supported by the West. I doubt you are suggesting the West should also support revolution in East Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza, Shaba Farns and occupied Syria with bombing raids on Tel Aviv and the Knesset offices. Equal treatment is easy but be careful what you wish for.

Quote:
Now, I'm clearly just shooting from the hip but you see my opinion - which is that Jews have historical and genetic claim to live in Palestine and they face a material threat there  that makes them defensive - as the transparent peddling of Israeli propaganda.

The ideas of "historical" and "genetic" claims have no standing in international law. The absence of legal standing means they can take it and shove it.

That Jews invented something back in the 1890s some 60 years before DNA structure was identified and a century before it was affordable to make the necessary tests is really quite absurd. The absence of legal standing means this also can be shoved up the same orifice.

But several posts have now established the Sephardic and Palestinians are genetically the same. As international law in fact prohibits distinctions based upon religion no special merit can be given to the practitioners of Judaism. Of course the non-observent for whatever reason are not followers of Judaism and cannot be considered Jews by any religious criteria.

Historically the only imaginable claim is to the Judea of Roman times and nothing more as that Jews means Judeans not Galileans or Samarians which the Judeans conquered in the mid 2nd c. BC according to Josephus. So even if one were to convince the world to recognize a claim based upon history the most they get is Roman Judea.

Quote:
Your pointed suspicion is interesting. Do you really believe the Jews manufactured persecution in middle eastern countries just to increase their body count? I've never heard of such a thing. What is the proof for this?

I did not say I  imagined it. I said it is well documented. Google it. You can also google the Haavara Agreement and Nuremberg Laws to see how far zionists will go to promote their political agenda.

Quote:
And no, I don't think your position will ever change on this, I don't think you will ever agree with anything I say - regardless of the fact Israel's behaviour is reprehensible and cannot be condoned, it's obvious you are an anti-semite.

I recite facts. Facts cannot be antisemitic. But I know where you are coming from. The greater Israel's atrocities the more antisemitic the people who recite them. Antisemites are people Jews hate.

Quote:
The entire middle east is merrily fucking the UN Charter of Human Rights square up the arse so let's hear your thoughts on some other countries whose human rights violations exceed those of Israel.

Again the attempt to conflate what a country does to its own citizens to what a country does to people who are not its citizens. On the internet they can't hear you giggle.

Quote:
Let's start with Syria, Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq then move over to those cauldrons of pestilence, the Sudan and Somalia. Do you have web sites devoted to exposing the evils of Saudi Arabia's religious empire, an empire has obliterated countless ancient cultures? No, I thought not.

When those countries occupy people who are not their citizens you get back to me. Until then, END THE OCCUPATION.

Quote:
And another thing, A-nony. Americans stole the land and the owners want it back.

Not in the US. When they go to court it is for enforcement of the treaties that ceded land claims to the US government. This particular bit of nonsense has been exposed so many times it is incredible izziehuggers are still trying to use it. Another example of not hearing the giggling no doubt.

Quote:
So did Australians, So did Canadians, so did Polynesians, Native Americans, Cro-magnons, chimpanzees, sea squirts and any other group of organisms who ever cast an appraising eye over the valley next door. If you seriously think theft of land is all anyone needs to know about Israel it's pretty obvious what your position really is.

You are still flogging a dead horse. Jews started stealing the land BY THE OWN ADMISSION by means of the absentee owner laws in 1949. Theft under color of law is theft.

Given the date the theft started and the means by which the theft was carried out nothing you have posted has addressed that in any manner.

It is unclear what you think you were trying to accomplish other than giving me opportunities to recite more of Israel's atrocities.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Fine

 

I agree with you. Going back to pre-1967 seems fair to me. I have no arguments with a 2 state solution, with the return of currently occupied territory, that ends the right of the occupied to attack the occupier and that decrees any agreed treaty will be supported by international law, whatever that actually means. Would you actually support a 2-state solution with a concrete treaty that allowed sharing of Jerusalem and ended the current bullshit forever? I would. 

As for those nations you suggest are entitled to mistreat their citizens just because they are citizens, most borders were arbitrarily drawn up by the misguided British after world war 2. The entire region was in flux at the time. The idea there is longstanding large scale nationhood in the middle east is not supported by the facts. Syria was born in 1947, Saudi Arabia in 1932 by war of conquest, Jordan in 1922, Lebanon 1943, Iraq, 1920, Israel 1948.  

The point being, the borders in the middle east have always been based on small kingdoms and all modern nations represent coalescences of these small kingdoms and tribes in modern times. These new nations are dominated by repression regardless of the wishes of former micro-states. I'm trying to think of one happy nation in the middle east that's comfortable under the recently imposed repressive regime that governs it but I can't think of a single one.

And no, I don't support intervention in any conflicts in the middle east, ever, ever ever. The sooner the oil runs out the better.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


A_Nony_Mouse
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At least we agree on the land theft starting in 1949

Atheistextremist wrote:
I agree with you. Going back to pre-1967 seems fair to me. I have no arguments with a 2 state solution, with the return of currently occupied territory, that ends the right of the occupied to attack the occupier and that decrees any agreed treaty will be supported by international law, whatever that actually means. Would you actually support a 2-state solution with a concrete treaty that allowed sharing of Jerusalem and ended the current bullshit forever? I would.

I have only supported ending the occupation. Everything beyond the 1948 borders is occupied territory. All of my positions follow from that. What the occupied choose do to after that, most likely create an independent state is their business. I do ridicule the idea that what they do is dependent upon anything but their own choices.

It does not matter in the least what I or anyone would support. It is only a matter of getting out of their way and letting them do what they choose to do. What they do is their decision alone.

Quote:
As for those nations you suggest are entitled to mistreat their citizens just because they are citizens,

Please try reading what I say. International law is called that for a reason. It is between nations. It does not apply internal to nations. It is up to the citizens of countries to deal with what they see as inequities.

Quote:
most borders were arbitrarily drawn up by the misguided British after world war 2. The entire region was in flux at the time. The idea there is longstanding large scale nationhood in the middle east is not supported by the facts. Syria was born in 1947, Saudi Arabia in 1932 by war of conquest, Jordan in 1922, Lebanon 1943, Iraq, 1920, Israel 1948.

Your point is what? In EVERY case there has been either equality among citizens no matter who conquered who even if it is equal oppression. The only group that has kept up a long term opposition is the Kurds. Given the territory they claim that is a problem for seven countries if I remember correctly. Both Iraq and Turkey have begun to take steps to end their local conflicts. It is a much longer story if you want to go into it but it is not particularly relevant save that it only applies to non-Jewish citizens of Israel as non-equal citizens.

Quote:
The point being, the borders in the middle east have always been based on small kingdoms and all modern nations represent coalescences of these small kingdoms and tribes in modern times. These new nations are dominated by repression regardless of the wishes of former micro-states. I'm trying to think of one happy nation in the middle east that's comfortable under the recently imposed repressive regime that governs it but I can't think of a single one.

How is it possible for anyone to pretend to talk about the middle east and say that? It is as though such a person never heard of the centuries of the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps you have not. Google it.

Those who have heard of the Ottoman Empire know the amalgamations were of Ottoman governates into larger entities. Iraq is three of them. The things that are abritrary are lines in the deserts which comport with western surveying but had no relevance in local terms. No one cared or cares about surveyed lines even today save the US who pisses on Syria for not closing them when the US cannot close them. The people who live there get no services and pay no taxes. No one gives a rat's ass about them or where the border is.

PLEASE learn something about the region before you post.

Quote:
And no, I don't support intervention in any conflicts in the middle east, ever, ever ever. The sooner the oil runs out the better.

Neither do I AFTER the end of the Cold War. After that ended Israel became worthless and therefore end all support for Israel. It is a rich and prosperous nation. As a member of the OECD it really does not need more US charity.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Yes, yes

 

 

I've heard of the Ottoman Empire. Like all empires imposed by force it was no more morally supportable than Israel is today. As for your idea of 'equality of oppression', that's bizarre and reflects nothing of the Arab caste system, of the taking of slaves, the oppression of women and the purgatory of existence for foreign worker drones in the middle east to this day. The islamic middle east is not a society of equals - you can't possibly believe this. 

My point was that many borders are recent and arbitrary, that tribalism still drives government, that social immorality is universal, that Israel is by no means the worst offender and that you seem content to brush this off with reference to international law. I still think you target Israel and ignore the wrongs of other nations, including new and old nations in the middle east. Why not criticise them all?

And please don't repeat your point about international law. That sounds to me like a mechanism that allows you to contain your cognitive dissonance over the social monstrosities that represent the false utopia of islamic statehood. I'd prefer to hear you say that abusing the rights of citizens as per the UN Charter, is always wrong. Nevertheless, hopefully Palestine and Israel will be separately recognized and we can all go back to arguing about something useful.  

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


A_Nony_Mouse
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.

Atheistextremist wrote:
I've heard of the Ottoman Empire. Like all empires imposed by force it was no more morally supportable than Israel is today.

You may certainly claim to have heard of it. That is not the same as knowing anything about it.  But as your best defense of Israel it so say it is no better than the Ottomans why should I get in your way. Preach on.

When a correspondant insists upon making an ass of both himself and his position it has always been my policy to get out of his way and let him rant.

So please feel free to tell me how far you have to reach to make Israel look good.

Quote:
As for your idea of 'equality of oppression', that's bizarre and reflects nothing of the Arab caste system, of the taking of slaves, the oppression of women and the purgatory of existence for foreign worker drones in the middle east to this day. The islamic middle east is not a society of equals - you can't possibly believe this.

Are you inventing a caste system simply because I recited the four classes of Israeli citizens? Or are you just trying, one MORE time, to divert the issue from theft of the land and the right of the owners to reclaim it under the same standard of justice as Jews claim from WWII? Obviously the latter is your point.

I find is amazing how low izziehuggers have to go to find something to say Israel is no better than.

Foreign workers in Israel are treated no better than in Saudi including confiscation of passports, starvation wages in violation of contract and arrest and deportation if they complain. The Israeli government supports it. Slavery was abolished in all Arab countries in the 1950s but economic slavery is no different than in Israel.

Quote:
My point was that many borders are recent and arbitrary, that tribalism still drives government, that social immorality is universal, that Israel is by no means the worst offender and that you seem content to brush this off with reference to international law. I still think you target Israel and ignore the wrongs of other nations, including new and old nations in the middle east. Why not criticise them all?

As I have noted dozens of times, Israel is the only country engaged in a criminal military occupation. No other country in the region is so engaged. I address the occupation.

End the occupation. Until then there is NO comparison.

Quote:
And please don't repeat your point about international law. That sounds to me like a mechanism that allows you to contain your cognitive dissonance over the social monstrosities that represent the false utopia of islamic statehood. I'd prefer to hear you say that abusing the rights of citizens as per the UN Charter, is always wrong. Nevertheless, hopefully Palestine and Israel will be separately recognized and we can all go back to arguing about something useful.

Why, after you try one more time to say Israel is no better than Muslim countries, should I be diverted from the central issue of Israel being a nation of war criminals? If you do not know about the Israeli matters I referred to then you should start reading Haaretz.com and jpost.com to learn something about that foreign country. If you are an Israeli I can understand your partiality to the Jewish form of Muslim intolerance which they copied from the Jews.

Matter of fact most all the faults of Christianity were copied from Judaism.

We have agreed Jews stole the land by means of the absentee owner laws. Frankly I am surprised you were clever enough to avoid that trap but you did.

We have agreed the only way to make Israel look good it to compare it to the worst of the worst.

Are you ready to be accused of being my sock puppet feeding me straight lines so I can recite more examples of Jewish tyranny?

You are damned near begging for it.

END THE OCCUPATION.

As long as the occupation continues there is no comparison.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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The only right thing about

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
I've heard of the Ottoman Empire. Like all empires imposed by force it was no more morally supportable than Israel is today.

You may certainly claim to have heard of it. That is not the same as knowing anything about it.  But as your best defense of Israel it so say it is no better than the Ottomans why should I get in your way. Preach on.

When a correspondant insists upon making an ass of both himself and his position it has always been my policy to get out of his way and let him rant.

So please feel free to tell me how far you have to reach to make Israel look good.

Quote:
As for your idea of 'equality of oppression', that's bizarre and reflects nothing of the Arab caste system, of the taking of slaves, the oppression of women and the purgatory of existence for foreign worker drones in the middle east to this day. The islamic middle east is not a society of equals - you can't possibly believe this.

Are you inventing a caste system simply because I recited the four classes of Israeli citizens? Or are you just trying, one MORE time, to divert the issue from theft of the land and the right of the owners to reclaim it under the same standard of justice as Jews claim from WWII? Obviously the latter is your point.

I find is amazing how low izziehuggers have to go to find something to say Israel is no better than.

Foreign workers in Israel are treated no better than in Saudi including confiscation of passports, starvation wages in violation of contract and arrest and deportation if they complain. The Israeli government supports it. Slavery was abolished in all Arab countries in the 1950s but economic slavery is no different than in Israel.

Quote:
My point was that many borders are recent and arbitrary, that tribalism still drives government, that social immorality is universal, that Israel is by no means the worst offender and that you seem content to brush this off with reference to international law. I still think you target Israel and ignore the wrongs of other nations, including new and old nations in the middle east. Why not criticise them all?

As I have noted dozens of times, Israel is the only country engaged in a criminal military occupation. No other country in the region is so engaged. I address the occupation.

End the occupation. Until then there is NO comparison.

Quote:
And please don't repeat your point about international law. That sounds to me like a mechanism that allows you to contain your cognitive dissonance over the social monstrosities that represent the false utopia of islamic statehood. I'd prefer to hear you say that abusing the rights of citizens as per the UN Charter, is always wrong. Nevertheless, hopefully Palestine and Israel will be separately recognized and we can all go back to arguing about something useful.

Why, after you try one more time to say Israel is no better than Muslim countries, should I be diverted from the central issue of Israel being a nation of war criminals? If you do not know about the Israeli matters I referred to then you should start reading Haaretz.com and jpost.com to learn something about that foreign country. If you are an Israeli I can understand your partiality to the Jewish form of Muslim intolerance which they copied from the Jews.

Matter of fact most all the faults of Christianity were copied from Judaism.

We have agreed Jews stole the land by means of the absentee owner laws. Frankly I am surprised you were clever enough to avoid that trap but you did.

We have agreed the only way to make Israel look good it to compare it to the worst of the worst.

Are you ready to be accused of being my sock puppet feeding me straight lines so I can recite more examples of Jewish tyranny?

You are damned near begging for it.

END THE OCCUPATION.

As long as the occupation continues there is no comparison.

 

 

The illegal occupation of the Ottoman Empire is that it's now fucking over. And the same applies to every other conquest the planet has ever seen. All are oppressive and breach International Law.

In any case, I again agree Israel should go back to pre-67 war borders and walk away from its settlements. Fuck knows why they don't. I see during the week there are even more happening. Pretty damn stupid. 

Anyway, A-nony, please feel free to drone on about Israeli oppression as much as you like, you are damned near begging for it. I'd hate to deprive you of your favourite pastime. 

You might post some details on slavery in Israel. I've never heard anything about that. And you might acknowledge there are evils in the world perpetrated by people other than jews. You seem obsessed by the war criminal juden

and the 'izzie-huggers' that support them.  

As I've said already, I don't agree with the occupation but isn't a binding treaty required after a war before an occupation can be called illegal under International Law? Why no treaty yet? Who is responsible for this?

I'd say both sides but I hold no hope of getting such a concession from you.  

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
I've heard of the Ottoman Empire. Like all empires imposed by force it was no more morally supportable than Israel is today.

You may certainly claim to have heard of it. That is not the same as knowing anything about it.  But as your best defense of Israel it so say it is no better than the Ottomans why should I get in your way. Preach on.

When a correspondant insists upon making an ass of both himself and his position it has always been my policy to get out of his way and let him rant.

So please feel free to tell me how far you have to reach to make Israel look good.

Quote:
As for your idea of 'equality of oppression', that's bizarre and reflects nothing of the Arab caste system, of the taking of slaves, the oppression of women and the purgatory of existence for foreign worker drones in the middle east to this day. The islamic middle east is not a society of equals - you can't possibly believe this.

Are you inventing a caste system simply because I recited the four classes of Israeli citizens? Or are you just trying, one MORE time, to divert the issue from theft of the land and the right of the owners to reclaim it under the same standard of justice as Jews claim from WWII? Obviously the latter is your point.

I find is amazing how low izziehuggers have to go to find something to say Israel is no better than.

Foreign workers in Israel are treated no better than in Saudi including confiscation of passports, starvation wages in violation of contract and arrest and deportation if they complain. The Israeli government supports it. Slavery was abolished in all Arab countries in the 1950s but economic slavery is no different than in Israel.

Quote:
My point was that many borders are recent and arbitrary, that tribalism still drives government, that social immorality is universal, that Israel is by no means the worst offender and that you seem content to brush this off with reference to international law. I still think you target Israel and ignore the wrongs of other nations, including new and old nations in the middle east. Why not criticise them all?

As I have noted dozens of times, Israel is the only country engaged in a criminal military occupation. No other country in the region is so engaged. I address the occupation.

End the occupation. Until then there is NO comparison.

Quote:
And please don't repeat your point about international law. That sounds to me like a mechanism that allows you to contain your cognitive dissonance over the social monstrosities that represent the false utopia of islamic statehood. I'd prefer to hear you say that abusing the rights of citizens as per the UN Charter, is always wrong. Nevertheless, hopefully Palestine and Israel will be separately recognized and we can all go back to arguing about something useful.

Why, after you try one more time to say Israel is no better than Muslim countries, should I be diverted from the central issue of Israel being a nation of war criminals? If you do not know about the Israeli matters I referred to then you should start reading Haaretz.com and jpost.com to learn something about that foreign country. If you are an Israeli I can understand your partiality to the Jewish form of Muslim intolerance which they copied from the Jews.

Matter of fact most all the faults of Christianity were copied from Judaism.

We have agreed Jews stole the land by means of the absentee owner laws. Frankly I am surprised you were clever enough to avoid that trap but you did.

We have agreed the only way to make Israel look good it to compare it to the worst of the worst.

Are you ready to be accused of being my sock puppet feeding me straight lines so I can recite more examples of Jewish tyranny?

You are damned near begging for it.

END THE OCCUPATION.

As long as the occupation continues there is no comparison.

The illegal occupation of the Ottoman Empire is that it's now fucking over. And the same applies to every other conquest the planet has ever seen. All are oppressive and breach International Law.

I agree there should be general rules on civility and even in their absence they should be observed but, are you trying to look stupid? The evolution of international law which began in the mid 19th c. did not exist before the mid 19th c. As we all agree ex post facto laws are improper and imposing modern ideas on the past is terminallly stupid, one has to notice this is the only possible defense you can imagine for Jews.

Quote:
In any case, I again agree Israel should go back to pre-67 war borders and walk away from its settlements. Fuck knows why they don't. I see during the week there are even more happening. Pretty damn stupid.

Yes, Jews should cease being war criminals. So?

Quote:
Anyway, A-nony, please feel free to drone on about Israeli oppression as much as you like, you are damned near begging for it. I'd hate to deprive you of your favourite pastime.

Drone? You post as though I have preached on the subject of jewish atrocities. I done nothing but discuss the subject without the euphamisms.

Quote:
You might post some details on slavery in Israel. I've never heard anything about that. And you might acknowledge there are evils in the world perpetrated by people other than jews. You seem obsessed by the war criminal judenand the 'izzie-huggers' that support them.

If you really cannot find the human trafficking going on in Israel by searching the US State Department website, googiing it or by reading jpost.com and haaretz.com reports on the subject I  can only suggest you are wilfuly ignorant. Matter of fact just in the last week Haaretz not only reported the recent State Department report on Israel but also that the Knesset just passed a law which prohibited workers from changing employers for any reason which earns negative points on the trafficking standards.

Quote:
As I've said already, I don't agree with the occupation but isn't a binding treaty required after a war before an occupation can be called illegal under International Law? Why no treaty yet? Who is responsible for this?

Fine with me. The land was taken from Jordan in 1967. There has been a peace treaty with Jordan since 1996. Who is responsible for not knowing there is a treaty? Other than you that is.

Quote:
I'd say both sides but I hold no hope of getting such a concession from you.

When Israel signed the Oslo accords it agreed to end the occupation by 1998. Why has it not done so?

And no, you will never get me to concede the innocent Palestinians victims of the Jewish occupation share a responsiblity for their fate at the hands of the Jews.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Given we apparently

 

both agree the Israelis should return to 67 borders arguing any further about peripheral issues is pointless. I still think you have a special dislike of jews. Regardless of international law, did morality spring into being in the mid-19th century?  Even if it did, I look forward to you naming the USA, China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Russia and so forth war criminals some time soon. Or are only Israelis definable as "all war criminals"?

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:
both agree the Israelis should return to 67 borders arguing any further about peripheral issues is pointless. I still think you have a special dislike of jews. Regardless of international law, did morality spring into being in the mid-19th century?  Even if it did, I look forward to you naming the USA, China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Russia and so forth war criminals some time soon. Or are only Israelis definable as "all war criminals"?

I have not talked about morality. I have talked about international law which is applicable today in the form of treaties to which Israel is a signatory and has thus bound itself to them. It should be clear that attempting to apply Hauge V and Geneva IV in an ex post facto manner is unacceptable. As ex post facto laws have been denounced at least since Roman times it is quite a foolish approach.

There is no way to salvage the Jews from their own chosen situation. Certainly any implication of singling out Jews for other reasons is a rather juvenile and long exposed tactic used to Zionists, to hide behind being Jews even though most of them are not Jews. Of course if you can name another 44 year old military dictatorship over others you may have a case. If you can name one that is merely 20 years old you might have a good start.

Israel has never been singled out for what it does to its own citizens. What Saudis do to Saudis is their business. Israel has been singled out for what it does to Palestinians which has no comparison in the modern world.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony,The next time some

A_Nony,

The next time some one says that you consider all Jews war criminals don't deny it. Just nod and say thank you because your post above is proof.

Has no comparison in the modern world?  Do you remember Iraq and the Kurds?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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I do think

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

What Saudis do to Saudis is their business.

 

 

"Saudi minister warns against racism," from the Daily Times, December 30 :

 

RIYADH: Saudi Labour Minister Ghazi Al Gosaibi has warned against growing racism among Saudis towards the millions of foreign workers in the kingdom, media reports said on Monday. Gosaibi told senior Labour Ministry officials that the country should treat foreign workers better, protect their rights and not succumb to racism, local newspapers reported.

“Regrettably, we have become overwhelmed by arrogance and even racism, and we have begun to imagine that we are better than those who have come to share in shouldering the burden of development,” he said.

Foreign workers have a huge presence throughout the kingdom, estimated at more than eight million workers altogether. 

 

That if you're going to take the moral high ground you need to be consistent. The idea all is sweetness and light and innocence in the Arab world and evil and ghastly in Israel is far from the truth. My point was that you are making moral judgments against Israelis yet these judgments seem only to apply to them. As if no one ever colonised anywhere before - and as if Palestine was a functioning nation before they arrived, which it demonstrably was not. 

I don't disagree with your position that Israel should go back to 67 borders and end settlement. Most Israelis think the same thing. But I do wonder if your position also insists Arab states recognise those borders in advance. Currently none recognise Israel's right to exist at all.

Why do you say there's no way to salvage the jews from their chosen situation? Are you saying if they returned to the 67 line the situation would be no different? Or that you believe they'll keep on with the settlements?

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony,

The next time some one says that you consider all Jews war criminals don't deny it. Just nod and say thank you because your post above is proof.

I guess your gimmick here is to sneak in the word all and then shout, Gevalt! Old trick. Been there. I merely include the Jews who support their fellow Jews actions against the Palestinians in any form. Absent condemnation is support. Neutrality is support.
Beyond that Israel does in fact assert that it is a Jewish state and declares the right to that identification because of middle eastern countries claiming to be Muslim states. That meaning is one in which Jews would have superior rights to any non-Jewish citizen and have the right to screw over non-Jews. That is what it means in countries which declare themselves to be Muslim. I have yet to hear of any Jewish organization condemning that.

So as there is no objection of interest from Jews to the actions of Israel which is ruled by Jews nor to its assertion that its actions are on behalf of all Jews, there can be no objection to using Israel and Jews interchangeably.

Quote:
Has no comparison in the modern world?  Do you remember Iraq and the Kurds?

You do need to learn something about the Kurds before you make such a fallacious reference. Kurd activists are trying to establish Kurdistan. This land would extend from Turkey to Afghanistan to the south and north into the countries I have to look at a map to name. The problem is there was never a Kurdistan and the Kurds within each country have no particular love of each other much less coordinated political or military activities.

So there was never an occupation in any of these cases. In none of these cases are the Kurds singled out for a military dictatorship different from all other citizens. In no case was the conflict started by foreign immigrants who intended to start the problems. Nor in any case was there a claim of a divine right to the private property of the Kurds.

There are other differences if you really wish to pursue the matter.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony,

The next time some one says that you consider all Jews war criminals don't deny it. Just nod and say thank you because your post above is proof.

I guess your gimmick here is to sneak in the word all and then shout, Gevalt! Old trick. Been there. I merely include the Jews who support their fellow Jews actions against the Palestinians in any form. Absent condemnation is support. Neutrality is support.
Beyond that Israel does in fact assert that it is a Jewish state and declares the right to that identification because of middle eastern countries claiming to be Muslim states. That meaning is one in which Jews would have superior rights to any non-Jewish citizen and have the right to screw over non-Jews. That is what it means in countries which declare themselves to be Muslim. I have yet to hear of any Jewish organization condemning that.

So as there is no objection of interest from Jews to the actions of Israel which is ruled by Jews nor to its assertion that its actions are on behalf of all Jews, there can be no objection to using Israel and Jews interchangeably.

Quote:
Has no comparison in the modern world?  Do you remember Iraq and the Kurds?

You do need to learn something about the Kurds before you make such a fallacious reference. Kurd activists are trying to establish Kurdistan. This land would extend from Turkey to Afghanistan to the south and north into the countries I have to look at a map to name. The problem is there was never a Kurdistan and the Kurds within each country have no particular love of each other much less coordinated political or military activities.

So there was never an occupation in any of these cases. In none of these cases are the Kurds singled out for a military dictatorship different from all other citizens. In no case was the conflict started by foreign immigrants who intended to start the problems. Nor in any case was there a claim of a divine right to the private property of the Kurds.

There are other differences if you really wish to pursue the matter.

 

No, son. I just like calling you a liar when you're lying - like now. You can't keep your story straight in the midst of a paragraph. Neutrality is not support - that's why they have another word for it.

Sorry you don't like that.

Let's briefly revisit the Kurds and the Palestinians, shall we?

Kurdistan - not a country. Palestine - not a country.

Military force used against the Kurds. Military force used against the Palestinians.

Iraqis living in "Kurdish territory". Israelis living in "Palestinian territory".

Seems more similar than you care to admit. Then again, you don't seem to have the same hatred for Muslims as you have for Jews.

What it comes down to is I don't like what's happening over there because humans shouldn't do that to each other. You don't like it because one side is Jewish.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony,

The next time some one says that you consider all Jews war criminals don't deny it. Just nod and say thank you because your post above is proof.

I guess your gimmick here is to sneak in the word all and then shout, Gevalt! Old trick. Been there. I merely include the Jews who support their fellow Jews actions against the Palestinians in any form. Absent condemnation is support. Neutrality is support.
Beyond that Israel does in fact assert that it is a Jewish state and declares the right to that identification because of middle eastern countries claiming to be Muslim states. That meaning is one in which Jews would have superior rights to any non-Jewish citizen and have the right to screw over non-Jews. That is what it means in countries which declare themselves to be Muslim. I have yet to hear of any Jewish organization condemning that.

So as there is no objection of interest from Jews to the actions of Israel which is ruled by Jews nor to its assertion that its actions are on behalf of all Jews, there can be no objection to using Israel and Jews interchangeably.

Quote:
Has no comparison in the modern world?  Do you remember Iraq and the Kurds?

You do need to learn something about the Kurds before you make such a fallacious reference. Kurd activists are trying to establish Kurdistan. This land would extend from Turkey to Afghanistan to the south and north into the countries I have to look at a map to name. The problem is there was never a Kurdistan and the Kurds within each country have no particular love of each other much less coordinated political or military activities.

So there was never an occupation in any of these cases. In none of these cases are the Kurds singled out for a military dictatorship different from all other citizens. In no case was the conflict started by foreign immigrants who intended to start the problems. Nor in any case was there a claim of a divine right to the private property of the Kurds.

There are other differences if you really wish to pursue the matter.

No, son. I just like calling you a liar when you're lying - like now. You can't keep your story straight in the midst of a paragraph. Neutrality is not support - that's why they have another word for it.

Sorry you don't like that.

Let's briefly revisit the Kurds and the Palestinians, shall we?

Kurdistan - not a country. Palestine - not a country.

And because of that you will notice I have always referred to the people rather than to a country. And I notice the zionist hasbara trying one more time to say it is wrong to occupy a country but it is just fine to force millions of people to live under a jewish military dicatorship.

This is hardly the first time I have pointed out the difference and I not think it is the first time I have done so to you. I have to ask why I get no contradiction when I point out the distinction again and then a few weeks later I get the whole diversionary country thing again. One might almost think people know what they are doing. Shall I assume you know what you are doing or insult you and assume you do not know what you are doing?

And you also remember every time there has been a lame attempt to distinguish between an occupied people and an occupied country I have cited the opinion of the Israeli Supreme Court declaring it is a belligerant occupation under the meaning of the Hague convention on land warfare. How is it possible you forget these things?

Quote:
Military force used against the Kurds. Military force used against the Palestinians.

Kurds are not occupied but citizens of their respective countries. Military action is taken by Turkey against kurish Iraqis, aka foreigners.

Palestinians are not citizens of Israel yet military force is used against them for no reason other than it makes possible the theft by Jews of their private property.

Quote:
Iraqis living in "Kurdish territory". Israelis living in "Palestinian territory".

Territory under belligerant occupation and thus subject to international law to which Israel is a signatory. And thus settling Israeli civilians in occupied territory is as much a hanging offense for Israelis as it was for Nazis. Why do you keep reciting what has been refuted so many times in the same manner and to which you never reject? Why, after never responding, do you return to the same nonsense arguments again and again? Do you think repeating the same nonsense over and over will make it substantive by mere repetition?

Quote:
Seems more similar than you care to admit. Then again, you don't seem to have the same hatred for Muslims as you have for Jews.

If Zionism were Judaism antisemitism would be a moral imperative. But you keep trying to make zionist theft and murder accectable by calling it Judaism because theft and murder comports with Judaism. It does but that is a separate issue. By Judaism is mean real Jews. I do not mean fake jews. We have been over this also. Jew means only one who observes Mosaic law, period, no exceptions.

Quote:
What it comes down to is I don't like what's happening over there because humans shouldn't do that to each other. You don't like it because one side is Jewish.

One side is NOT jewish. One side only claims to be Jewish. Non-observant are not Jews, period, no exceptions. I use Jewish because even observant Jews, the only real Jews, are silent in the face of Jewish atoricities, Zionist atrocities in the name of Judaism.

The issue remains the Palestinians are living under a jewish military dictatorship where they no rights, civil or human, because it facilitates criminal theft and murder in the name of Judaism. If you have no problem with that then you should not profess having a problem with the Nazis -- the only group Zionists can truthfully claim not to be as bad as but only for lack of opportunity so far as I can tell.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

What Saudis do to Saudis is their business.

 

"Saudi minister warns against racism," from the Daily Times, December 30 :

RIYADH: Saudi Labour Minister Ghazi Al Gosaibi has warned against growing racism among Saudis towards the millions of foreign workers in the kingdom, media reports said on Monday. Gosaibi told senior Labour Ministry officials that the country should treat foreign workers better, protect their rights and not succumb to racism, local newspapers reported.

“Regrettably, we have become overwhelmed by arrogance and even racism, and we have begun to imagine that we are better than those who have come to share in shouldering the burden of development,” he said.

Foreign workers have a huge presence throughout the kingdom, estimated at more than eight million workers altogether.

It is the same in Israel if that is your point. However foreign workers have the choice in going to Saudi and a place to return to. That is quite different from the Palestinians living under the jewish military dictatorship.

Quote:
That if you're going to take the moral high ground you need to be consistent. The idea all is sweetness and light and innocence in the Arab world and evil and ghastly in Israel is far from the truth. My point was that you are making moral judgments against Israelis yet these judgments seem only to apply to them. As if no one ever colonised anywhere before - and as if Palestine was a functioning nation before they arrived, which it demonstrably was not.

So is it correct for me to summarize your position is, Because Saudis are not Swedes then Jews can maintain a military dictatorship over five million people and demand praise for doing so. Is there something else you are trying to say? If so, please be more explicit.

As to the functioning country part, the first riots against the Brits for the nation they were promised were in 1923. One has to ask after the Brits promising the Palestinians their own country after the end of the Ottoman empire were not a political entity then just who and what was the nature of the promise? From what I have read of Lawrence his position supports mine. And then we have the first act of the Brits being splitting off Palestine as a separate entity.

As to the colonization part, that has been universally condemned since 1950 or so. Without any quibbles on dates it was universally condemned before 1967.

Therefore these pathetic attempts to equate Israel proper with the criminal occupation beyond the borders of Israel is really laughable and invites me to ridicule people stupid enough to try to confuse one with the other. If someone really cannot tell the difference then I have to ask if they are capable of living on their own or need be in an assisted living facility.

One can take this as a contemporary case study of how religions get started. A group agreement to both suspend critical thinkling and take any, literally any, response as refuting any issue. I talk about post 1967 military dicatorship and in response I get talk about Israel proper.

Pardon but this is an adult, non-religious discussion. It is a reasonable expectation that respondants address the issues not go off on tangents. It is reasonable to expect respondants not post just any unrelated glib crap.

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I don't disagree with your position that Israel should go back to 67 borders and end settlement. Most Israelis think the same thing. But I do wonder if your position also insists Arab states recognise those borders in advance. Currently none recognise Israel's right to exist at all.

Exactly that offer was made by the Arab League in 2003 and Israel has never responded.

But as to me I would NEVER be stupid enough to link the end of a criminal military dictatorship with the actions of third parties unrelated to the actions of war criminals running the occupation.

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Why do you say there's no way to salvage the jews from their chosen situation? Are you saying if they returned to the 67 line the situation would be no different? Or that you believe they'll keep on with the settlements?

I say there is no way to salvage the Jews because there is no way to salvage anyone. People have to do things for themselves. Jews do not want to end their criminal dictatorship. No one can make them do what they do not want to do.

For me it goes without saying they are on their own.

Unfortunately the political power of Jews who support Jewish crimes is so great that Netanyahu can tell Obama to go fuck himself in a live press conference and get away with it.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml