If you were given complete proof of a deity(ies) existence, would you worship it?
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This is obviously a hypothetical question for the non-theists out there, since even without a shred of evidence we know the theist's answers, but I think this could make for an interesting discussion.
So, if it was proven that some deity or deities existed, would you worship it/them? Not just acknowledge it's/their existence but actually side with it/them? As I have never made my anarcho-syndicalist/anti-authoritarian political stance a secret, it's obvious that I will always combat tyrants wherever they may be, so if some god(s) did make themselves known to us all, I would accept their existence yet would fight their dictatorial control of the world like I would any earth bound tyrant. I'm an atheist because I don't see any evidence to point me in the direction of theism, but I'm also an anti-theist in that I hate what they stand for whether they were correct or not. Yet I have heard some atheists in discussions actually state that they would go along with the "right" religion if they were only provided evidence.
I think this is an interesting question. What about religion don't you buy into? The lack of evidence, the evils that are deemed acceptable to the in-group for the arbitrary reason that the big fist in the sky decreed it so, the idea that out of the entire universe we are somehow more special then anything else, or a combination of some, all, or a completely different set of reasons? If the god(s) showed themselves irrefutably, would you accept the authority of said god(s) and worship it/them or would you struggle against it/them?
Whatever your reasoning, I want to hear it. It most likely will be different then my own thoughts on this, which is what makes it an interesting subject and why I ask.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
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How much stimulation of my nucleus accumbens would said deity provide in exchange for worship?
If an all powerful deity exists, we are simply puppets he created and he pulls the strings. What choice would we actually have to worship or not?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Well, yeah, said deity/deities would be able to force us to believe if s/he/it/they so desired. Unless you are calvinistic, isn't there something in the theist stance about "free will"? God/s/dess wants us to "choose" to love him/her/it/them. So first they would have to show up and then they would have to change a few thousand years of policy.
No, I would not unless forced to. And my definition of "forced" is mind control - total lack of will. Not just a gun held to my head - in that case, shoot me now.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I'm gonna assume by worship you mean obeying the god, not necessarily thinking it's worthy of any adoration.
Depends on the consequences. If we would go to hell for not doing what god says, you'd have to be a complete retard not to kiss god's ass, assuming that your obedience doesn't result in other people going to hell of course.
If there's no heaven or hell and god doesn't personally do anything to force us to worship him in this life, I see no reason to do anything differently from how we act as atheists now. Just because the repugnant bullshit in the bible (for example) is actually written by a god in this hypothetical doesn't change my attitude towards it.
Then call me a complete retard, because I'd rather be tortured forever then live one second as a slave.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
In Canada right now, we have a full fledged federal election going on, I bet anyone south of the boarder doesn't even realize it. BUUU--UT!! Your [U.S. of A., eh?] banking system depends on it. Canadian banks own most of your banks, and they operate under Canadian Banking laws. Those banking laws are decided by parliment [that's a French word for 'the place where I speak', eh?'] . If you want a loan or a mortgage you'd better look to Ottawa to see how it's going to work out, eh?
Throughout this campaign, all five (5) major party's [and some minor ones] keep saying "vote for me and no one else"; all THIS sounds to me like the first [1st] commandment (one out of ten) "thou shalt have no other god before me". What other gods are there? I might even like the other gods better. Which means , when it comes time to decide (in Canada May 2) I have one (1) chance to say "Yes" and four(4) "NO" options.
I would think of and treat any real god the same way; 1 "yes I agree" and 4 "No I cant be bothered".
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
You're a retard!
Edit insert: complete retard!
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Looks like Mr Harper again from that debate.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
If sticking to my principles makes me a complete retard, then a complete retard I proudly am! XD
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
I'm just going to address the title of the thread because it is to the point.
NO I would not. This/these "entities" if proven to exist(which is bullshit, but still another story). But for model's sake only, NO!
I could not worship such a deadbeat/s. No sane parent would put their child in a house full of razor blades, broken glass on the floor, cockroaches, ecoli and filth all over the house.
In reality humans, from the time they are born, to the time they die, are subject on a daily basis, to the flaws of their own DNA, flaws of bacteria and viruses. They are subject to disease, accidents in the home, car accidents, natural disasters, domestic crime, and global war, and famine. Not to mention the mass energy in the universe that could wipe us out in the blink of an eye like the dinos.
No parent if they had the power to stop harm to their kid, and had the power of a god, would allow what nature and evolution displays.
It makes absolutely no sense to conflate the good and bad that happen in life to a comic book super hero vs a comic book villain.
The good and bad that happen make sense because this is all there is. Both happen because we observe them, not because we want, or don't want them to happen.
To think of myself as merely an object or property of a bigger being that can do what it wants to me without my consent, is a sick prospect.
When you take out the magic commic book crap, the bad that will ultimately happen to all of us, is not a result of superstition. It is a matter of simply your luck running out.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I've seen a lot of atheists say that and I don't believe it at all. You might even honestly believe it now but there's no way you'd still think it was a great idea after a while in hell.
Still wouldn't change a thing for me. That would be cowardice. If a god has to operate through threats and bullying that is immoral. If you are going to cave in to threats, you can. I find nothing moral about threats.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Pain, or the threat of it, doesn't stop me, or I wouldn't do the anti-fascist work like I do, knowing that any night I could wake up to neo-nazi's beating me to death or burning me alive in my apartment, which they have tried in the past. If you are swayed from your principles by pain, no matter how long that pain may last, then in my opinion you really don't hold those principles very strongly. I've been beaten up and nearly hospitalized too many times for my political beliefs to think pain is enough to sway me. I would relish the pain if it meant that I knew I had stuck to my principles. Hell for me would be to turn my back on my principles without evidence for doing so. No amount of pain could add up to my personal knowledge that I had betrayed everything I stand for. Knowing that would be worse then any mere physical pain.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
Well, if worship just means "side with them," then I'll side with the deity(s) if I like his/her/its policies. But, if it means being their little brainless drone, then obviously not. I'll pretend to support them if they have the power to send me to hell or something though; I can't imagine how you view publicly denying to your principles as worse than eternal torture.
I despise the very concept of religion. It's essentially a fundamental set of rules and beliefs that you're to abide to without thinking.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I can't betray my conscience, and if that means being tortured forever, then I'll be tortured forever, but at least I'll be honest to myself and others.
And I know what torture is like, seeing as I've had horrible migraines since I was 3. I'll take eternal pain over capitulation any day.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
Opposing some assholes in real life has a purpose other than feeling good about yourself and pissing off the assholes, but that's not the case here. I find a principle that states you must submit to eternal torture rather than do anything an asshole demands of you even with no hope of said asshole ever being defeated to be completely pointless. I don't believe you'd be holding on to your hopeless "resistance" for 5 minutes of the worst torture possible, much less forever.
In the hypothetical universe run by Yahweh the smart thing to do is play along with the bullshit for your tiny speck of a mortal life and go to heaven. The fact it's a hideous universe run by an immoral dick does nothing to change that, you play with the hand you're given.
Have you ever been tortured? God could waterboard you and you would resist? Don't think so.
All these responses like this are completely contradicted by science. All the evidence indicates we don't have any free will to decide what to do. We simple respond to pain and pleasure stimuli. So all Yahweh would have to do is provide sufficient pleasure for worship and sufficient pain for not worshipping.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
If there's something in it for me while I'm still alive- yes. Otherwise, no.
It would depend on the nature of the god. If the god would do something horrible to me if I didn't worship it then I would worship it. I'm kind of a wimp like that. Otherwise I probably wouldn't worship it.
pffffffttt
If someone wants to flaunt their pride in the level of devotion they have in their principles (without so much as a bruise on their bodies), who are you to give them any odd looks?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
You don't get it. It's not about just pissing off some asshole, it's about not helping perpetuate unethical institutions. If that unethical institution wants me to go along with it, I feel that anything is preferable to helping perpetuate that unethical system. Personally, I would rather face unending pain then know that I put that pain on someone else to protect my ass. An eternity of living with that knowledge would be a worse torture by far, at least if you have a conscience. You may be able to accept fascism (and as most of you are positing the monotheistic deity of the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs it is definitely fascist) if you stay safe, but I am not. I refuse to "play ball" when it comes to a fascist tyranny, whether it be one on this earth or one in the sky. Anything is preferable to adding my strength to that kind of immoral institution.
I have suffered from debilitating migraines for weeks at a time since I was 3. I know torture. Waterboarding doesn't hole a candle to a migraine that lasts weeks. I would rather feel like I was drowning again (which I almost have, so I know what it feels like to breath in water and watch the light at the surface not get any closer) then know that I went along with an institution that hurt and tortured people in such a way.
It's not about the physical pain of the torture itself, it's about the mental pain of knowing that I ended up supporting a fascist tyranny, and hurt others in the process, simply to play it safe and protect myself. That would be worse than any physical pain.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
I would probably succumb to extreme torture ( hell ? ) and capitulate. But that is the plight of a hostage. To couple worship to such ghastly treatment is beyond comprehension. A true attitude of worship would not only be unlikely, it would be virtually impossible.
I do agree with the sentiment that B166ER is expressing, though.
Your actions are completely irrelevant, you can do nothing to stop the system if god doesn't want you to. Defying god makes as much sense in this hypothetical as jumping off a cliff because you think gravity is an asshole for not letting you fly. It can't do anything to fix the issue.
Like I said in my first post, being told to do something that sends others to hell is a different issue. I'm curious what you mean by this exactly though. How would you kissing god's ass send anyone else to hell? It's their choise to kiss god's ass or not, and if they already do, why would god make you do something that changes that and sends them to hell? If you just mean being ordered to kill someone who's already going to hell and speeding the process up, well I can agree that's nasty shit but in the end of the day, it's better to obey than end up in hell with them (and I don't mean just from your perspective, I mean there'd be less people in hell overall).
Kissing god's ass doesn't add your strength to his system any more than not jumping off a cliff adds your strength to gravity. Whether I "play ball" with gravity and god or not is irrelevant to their existence and complete control over me.
Since the actual reality that we observe is that if there is a God, he does not intervene in the way a real dictator does, and we have no evidence of a 'real' Hell, and not all Faiths believe in such a thing anyway.
Most seem to believe, if not explicitly, but implicitly by their behaviour, that God does need our help in implementing his wishes, or defending him, or else doesn't want to force us directly to bend to his wishes. So it is quite reasonable to defy what we see as his injustices. For whatever reason, it does seem that it can be effective, just as if God wasn't there or didn't actually care.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I'm using the term worship to mean adoration.
Even if I was shaking hands with the the deity that created the universe, I find no compelling reason to worship he/she/it. Part of my reasoning come from watching Stargate SG-1 (nerd right here
). For those unfamiliar, essentially the main characters encounter advanced aliens who pose as gods to less advanced aliens and these poser aliens get progressively more powerful until they encounter an alien race that exists as pure energy and can essentially manipulate anything they want.
The question constantly raised is "Why should power be worthy of worship/adoration".
In my opinion, the answer is, "It's not".
It would be impossible for us to have proof of an infinite omnipotent being, merely indications that a being had access to resources allowing it to at least project some very fancy special effects. We would not have means of verifying any such apparent demonstrations as being 'real'.
There is no evidence or logical necessity that any conscience being created the universe, or that even if such a being had done that, that it would be necessarily infinite or omnipotent, let alone omni-benevolent, or 'perfect', or incapable of misleading us.
I very much agree with lalib, that there is no reason why such a being would deserve worship. It might demand we 'go through the motions' of worshipping it, or force us to, but why would it bother? Why would such a being demand that from such puny beings as us? We might as well walk up to an ant hill and demand they worship us.
What's with this obsession with "worship"?? What is the point or ultimate purpose of a God getting a whole bunch of tiny 'souls' into its magic kingdom and praising it for eternity?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
From my experience, worthy gods don't demand worship and unworthy gods don't deserve it.
Worship is an urge of some type of people, to paint something in brightest colors, because it seems like the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be a god, but maybe a leader, ideology, nation, sports club, whatever. It's both devotion and idealizing some object. Not everyone does this, naturally most people don't even have that tendency. With exception of those swayed along with some organized movement, of course. And most of people are easy to sway.
I can very well imagine a personal relationship with the divine, but that which is a higher part of me, so again, worship does not apply.
As for obeying god, only those conditioned or people who think too lowly of themselves can do that. Independent people follow a good plan or a reliable person. I can imagine myself tagging along with a god or anyone else, because he has a good plan, vision or purpose, as long, as he has it. Not because of his divine someoneness. Which is really what most of humanity does. If Muhammad or Jesus would publically appear in Mekka or Jerusalem, at least hundreds of millions of people would obey them, just because they are Muhammad or Jesus. They can't show up without wills of many millions bending in their direction.
Which should make you all feel how special you are, compared to four billions of Christians and Muslims combined.
I think it has to do with our personality. Some people worship the mysterious divine, some people doubt it, feel it, investigate it, paint it, calculate it, invoke it or even identify with it.
Btw, lalib, Stargate SG1 isn't nerdy! Or maybe it is, but it's also extremely well written. This show asks good questions, makes good points and can even make fun of itself.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
My answer is NO. If I had a choice at all, and if I do this being is no "god."
Even if I didn't have a choice, if it let my mind go out of its presence I would still see it as a differently evolved animal that can be killed like I can.
I may try to learn from it, but worship is way off base for any self respecting life form to do.
____
The bible, good fiction? A 3 year old can write a better story.