Fla Pastor burns Koran for wrong reasons.
Online It is all over the news, no link. But you guys may remember that bigoted Fla idiot who backed off his threat a year or so ago, but now he really has gone and done it.
Should we burn ANY book, much less a Koran. CONTEXT.
For the selfish bigoted reasons this asshole is doing it no. He thinks this is a Christian nation and they should bow to Jesus. Just as fascist a statement as those who are now murdering people over his action.
But, Ayaan Hersi Ali and Saiman Rushdie should not be put under threat of death because they rightfully criticize the current Islamic Dark ages. I do not think we help the middle east by allowing their nuts to bully us into caving into their taboos.
In that context, if ANY law were passed here, to ban burning something ANYTHING, such as a flag, or even the Koran, as a form of protest, then that is a form of fascism and should be protested. I find it funny that these nuts burn an American flag.
This sicko is making it the us vs them crap these zealots want. What we should want for the east, isn't childish "you picked on my daddy" violence. What we should want for them is what we have here under our Constitution. In that we all have the right to bitch about others but do not have the right to be violent towards others.
In the context of why this asshole is burning a Koran, I am against him. But we will not win the war against their fascism by caving into their taboos.
They need to grow the fuck up. Allah is a fucking pussy if he needs mere mortals to do his bidding for him. He is immoral if he is more worried about a fucking object than world disease, world hunger, world polution, poverty and war.
They are just as fucked in the head as this Pastor. I would burn both a bible and a koran together as a protest, not against all religious people, but against those who think bigotry and violence is what a god should want for humanity.
I am so sick of humans thinking their god(insert name here) deserves respect "just because" and then use violence to demand that respect.
FUCK ANY GOD, MUSLIM, JEWISH, CHRISTIAN, who has fans who think violence is a lagit form of protest to things they don't like to hear.
You are proving this bigot's point by behaving like schoolyard bullies. If you want to prove this dickhead Pastor wrong, then simply call him a bigoted dickhead, and leave it at that.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Still stuck in utopia "cant we all just get along" thinking.
The issue isn't wanting to stop them. The issue is WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY DO WE want to live in ourselves.
THEY MURDERED UN WORKERS as a demand to silence, and here you are now suggesting this Pastor be silenced failing to understand that our soldiers are there fighting for us to be free from people demanding our silence.
AGAIN, you forget once you start getting into issues via law, of saying "You cant say that, or do that(when it comes to protest)" you fail to realize OVER TIME power shifts and the people in power change. If you give government that power to decide what can or cannot be said in a form of protest, that government can potentially get to something you want to say or do as a form of protest.
OUR SOLDIERS are there to protect the Constitution which INCLUDES unpopular speech, which is what those murderous thugs didn't want themselves. They didn't murder out of self defense, they murdered because they were merely offended.
AGAIN, this website is an atheist website. We say lots of things here that offend Christians, AND MUSLIMS, I am not about to give my own government the power to have this website shut down MERELY because of offending others.
Your well intended Kumbia attitude will bite you in the ass long term.
TACTIC is my issue, not your intent.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Re-frame this the way you would (just dont allow my few comments to hi-jack your whole Thread by 'reframing things')
Cannot currently 'PM' you or I would :~ Brian this is your baby and your Thread. I may have forgotten that. Brian37 I dont remember anyone on the site belonging to the Good Reverend's flock in FLO. This has nothing to do with a few of the things you were reminding me of. Right? As of now, I dont have the foggiest clue of what's in the head of 'Revenant Irrelative' (nor do I much care). I am tempted to point out Michael Scheuer, a former CIA officer along with other in their field tend to agree that politics and not religion is at the heart of this tactics use by extremeists. Distorting Islam's 'religion' has won the day in its' ability in gaining the soap box, it seems. Honestly Me bringing that up gets so far away from the discussion I dont even want to with you
IMHO, I m more than a little guilty of being way too opinionated on this subject and not staying true to the way you've framed things. Hasnt my side issue(s) taken this insanely off topic ? I fear for this Thread. So You framing the Thread instead of something I may have said. I 'm guilty too of struggling with how much the lack of cultural sensativities fuels this outrage I carry. Brian37 It is complicated lets leave it at that. Naturally I do not think you or I would ever frame his act in the any similar fashion or way. I dont think I would agree with at least part of your central premise, at the start of this thread. My minority view on this promises not to work for this Thread, I am afraid. For the Thread's sake. ProzacDeathWish is a far better choice in dance partners i think. As for 'caving into their taboos' I would not have framed it like that. Cannot currently 'PM' you or I would
I don't see how this has gotten off topic.
Me......"Dont screw with law when it comes to merely offending people"
You, "He should be fined"
Me. "No, he may be a dick, but he has done nothing illegal"
You keep wanting to make the Pastor pay because of something legal he did. IT IS NOT, NOR SHOULD IT BE A CRIME TO MERELY OFFEND OTHERS.
I don't care WHAT THE ISSUE IS. This isn't about religion, this is about what kind of government long term we live under. You start getting into thought police, long term, the government could end up going after your opinions.
You are distracted by the issue of religion, and religion is only relevant in the sense that the people who murdered the UN workers were demanding silence.
But this would be no different than making it legal to murder someone for calling your sister a whore.
YOU, "Whose talking about allowing our government to murder people"
NO NO NO NO NO
Even when it comes to mere "fines" that is force of law, civil court's have judges and if you don't pay that fine, you go to jail.
You have to go way beyond merely offending someone. It is legal to say "Lindsy Lohan is a whore". The person hearing it may have a rightful objection to it, but that does not justify a fine, much less what those murderous thugs did.
The laws that allow you to go after others for financial damages are NOT based on merely offending someone. But go after lying about others, in the form of slander and liable. And having an opinion about a religion is not slander or liable, it is merely an opinion. Otherwise every time atheists were equated to Hitler we could sue or have them fined.
MERELY BEING OFFENDED IS NOT A CRIME, NOR SHOULD IT BE. It is neither a civil crime(sue or fine) nor is it a criminal court crime. It merely amounts to someone picking on something you hold deeply.
THIS UTIMATELY IS ABOUT LAW AND WHAT WILL END UP HAPPENING IF YOU START INSTITUTIONALIZING THOUGHT CRIME LAWS, civil or criminal. Long term that is a dangerous attitude because the government could end up getting to something you might want to say that is offensive to others.
No one, not you, not me, not believers or atheists, should be free from merely being offended.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
OK, I have been sitting back and watching this thread unfold. However, I have a question that is possibly relevant.
What if someone were to write a short and totally fictional story about a Koran burning and post it up on the internet? Say a site like The Onion that goes out of it's way to look like a real news outlet. Then through the process of poor translation and cultural misunderstanding, it gets reported in the middle east as real news.
Following that, there is another huge riot and dozens of people are dead as a result.
To whom shall we attach blame for what happened?
The Onion for doing what they do every day? Al Jazeera for totally missing the point? The rioters for rioting to the point where people have been shot dead?
Remember that the whole thing totally lacked a basis in fact.
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Brian37 shouldnt be saying : 'I don't see how this has gotten off topic. Me......"Dont screw with law when it comes to merely offending people" You, "He should be fined" Me. "No, he may be a dick, but he has done nothing illegal" You keep wanting to make the Pastor pay because of something legal he did. IT IS NOT, NOR SHOULD IT BE A CRIME TO MERELY OFFEND OTHERS".
Politics (hmm). Such an outrageous suggestion . Should this apply to all ? Answer: No! No just him. Why go through this? What would be the point? Allow cultural crimes to be left as nothing was wrong in that. Good thing for the Pastor that I have it on good authority (Christopher Hitchens) that "The one only unforgivable sin is to be boring",.
People stuck in "debate mode" seldom get the stage handed back to them. So, Take 'er away. To whom shall we attach blame for what happened? Gene was wanting to ask something OF the true cause and inciting violence. They are experiencing an increase (a truly Politically incorrect term) of classic 'Sin'. Maybe too. Now that is even different territory
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Christopher Hitchens quote while interviewed on C-Span by Brown: Again, Christopher Hitchens quote sums up things behind comments of mine: "The one only unforgivable sin is to be boring"
Gene Simmons ask(s) something :
Who should we blame? The ass backwards politicians and dictators of the governments who play off of their credulity to maintain their power. These assholes know better but don't give a shit. We need to hold Karzi(sp) RESPONSIBLE and our politicians who fund this pupetmaster.
What I will not do is blame the founders who rightfully said and agreed that dissent should be protected, and the Supreme Courts in ruling after ruling who backed that up that even unpopular speech should be protected.
You are not going to, long term, pull the middle east out of their Dark Ages by caving into the taboos the west itself pulled itself out of with the Age Of Enlightenment.
If I can find the letter from Jefferson to Adams, it talks about the very issue of being "offended". Adams was complaining about how vicious the media was towards politicians on both sides. Jefferson, more politely than I am describing here basically bitch slapped him, "You idiot, we sent a "fuck you" letter to the King and now you want our citizens not to speak ill of us."
The Christian Dark ages was all about taboos and you didn't speak ill of the church and you would be put to death for such. EVEN in our colonies early history people were put on trial and burnt at the stake for the mere accusation of being a witch.
The Pastor is right in condemning Muslims, but wrong for WHY he is doing it. He isn't doing it for secular reasons to say, "He dipshits, don't be violent". He is doing it because he, like they, think each respective sky daddy is going to kick the other's ass.
I don't want to see people like Ayaan Hersi Ali silenced for criticizing Islam, who ALSO had death threats silinced. Her partner whom she helped make a documentary WAS MURDERED for blasphemy. Do you suggest she shouldn't speak out against Islam?
This is NOT about one person. This is about the future of the west and the future of humanity. Giving into violent murderers merely because they got offended is the same as giving into hostage takers,
Your rightful intent of going after bigots SHOULD NOT involve force of law to silence speech that is merely offensive. AND AGAIN even a fine is force of law because if you don't pay it you go to jail.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Let me dream my little dreams.
A Little self deprecating humor (above)
If I truly hated the man (which I DO NOT,) irregardless the law, force a plane ticket on him. Anyway, I just wonder, If the guy was appropriately using argumentation to invalidate their religion or their primary beliefs (which some Xians do) Or wanting to relegate their beliefs to a status of 'mere' folklore and myth. They are just 'stories'. I kinda wonder if any criticism could even be leveed against that guy in FL ? Then it would be strikingly insane to react at all like that. Given some place of honor, why not. If ONLY that had happened instead.
Staying purely a Free-"Speech" issue :
Mix in this tradition of 'ours' going all the way back to this nation's founding (See: Quote) I expect this will actually play well for the little book burner in public opinion (*sigh*). Such a wonderous use for OUR many freedoms, completely insult another's culture. Assuming done at a punishable order. Some of the 'other side' (Jay Sekulow) wouldnt agree any attack on rights. Jail generally is not in the cards with a minor enough infractionary offense when breached. Assuming other laws ARE limited via constricting the harshness within the law in terms of sentencing."Hate" poles of faiths, seem to be locked into a downward spiral of mutual mistrust and hostility based on self-perpetuating stereotypes. That could be the factor in determining a person's guilt.
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The reason hate spirals down into violence IS BECAUSE OF FUCKING TABOOS! If you demand that people act like adults and leave it at bitching and protect the right to bitch then people are less fearful, not more fearful. You'll never get rid of all xenophobia, but you can minimize the fear of violence in a culture.
Why are you so afraid of the Muslims who murdered the UN workers. BECAUSE THEY WERE DEMANDING TABOOS! I certainly fear them, but not because of all Muslims, but because that group of nuts IS willing to use violence.
I do not fear bitching. I would fear anyone or any government who demands I don't bitch. You want to know what it is like to live under a government that demands you don't bitch, Iran is a good place for you to live.
The difference between those murderous thugs and the west is that an insult is the worst you would get from me.
If I say "fuck you" to you, does that give you the right to kill me?
An insult is not the same as a gun or a knife or a bomb. It is merely offensive. I find it insulting to be equated to Hitler and Stalin. Does that give me the right to murder people who equate me to such?
GROW UP, people will not always like you or always say nice things about you.
HOW you deal with insults isn't as simple as saying "don't do that".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog