Eating meat.

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Eating meat.

  I struggle with this issue, it is difficult for me to land firmly on any side of the fence.  On the one hand eating meat seems very natural, and some animals do seem like they came about specifically for that reason, to eat grass and feed the predators.  But predators have no choice, and are not morally aware, we do and are.  On the other hand life is life, what really gives us the right to take the life of "lesser" species.  Where is the line???  Somewhere in between dolphins and dragonflies is where we most draw it and it is different for everyone.  There are so many variables involved in this tuff question and so instead of going on and on I would like to here what others have to say.  All I know is I look at my dog and he is my best friend, he is innocent and I would face great danger to make sure he was ok.  When I see people hacking up and eating dogs I instinctively think it is wrong (but is it?), it sure feels like it is.  But then I think that pigs have been shown to be just as smart and just as loving pets as dogs.  If it is wrong to eat a dog, then isn't it wrong to eat a pig.  What about octopus, apparently their bloody brilliant like parrots.  Is it the way it was killed, or the way that it lived a factor?  Where do you stand? 


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 I'd eat a dolphin.

 I'd eat a dolphin.


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Have you followed the recent

Have you followed the recent threads between Blake and myself Crazy?  I think we've discussed this three times in as many months, so if you've read those I don't want to cover the same ground.

 

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I was raised a vegetarian

I was raised a vegetarian and I'm still 95%+ vegetarian.  I don't eat disgusting McDonald's type fast food crap or steak or anything.  Just small amounts of meat once in a while and some tuna.

You can look at it as immoral or wrong since humans technically don't NEED meat but 95%+ of humans have worse KARMA than I do!  I'm better off than the majority of humans on the planet! Most all humans on the planet will eat meat if they are offered it!

I agree with all of you who have seen the animal slaughter videos.  HARDLY ANYONE would eat meat if they had to kill the animal themselves.  I bet most on this board would turn vegetarian if they had to kill, bleed, butcher, etc. the animals themselves.

I'm sure you guys have seen that cult classic "Faces of Death".  Even the creator of that film said he chooses to be vegetarian if he had to kill the animals himself and he loves death! LOL!

Mellestad, when one thread gets too long it doesn't hurt to start another.

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Yea, but I'm not going to

Yea, but I'm not going to write another twenty page batch of bullshit if he just read the last twenty page batch of bullshit.

 

I disagree on the slaughter thing though, people would get used to it very quickly.  It isn't as if humans in general have any innate aversion to getting blood on their hands, it's almost purely upbringing...most people would get over it very quickly.

Now, they might not kill the critters if given a choice between pre-made non-meat food in a box and on the hoof animal food, but that is just laziness.

 

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mellestad wrote:Yea, but I'm

mellestad wrote:

Yea, but I'm not going to write another twenty page batch of bullshit if he just read the last twenty page batch of bullshit.

 

I disagree on the slaughter thing though, people would get used to it very quickly.  It isn't as if humans in general have any innate aversion to getting blood on their hands, it's almost purely upbringing...most people would get over it very quickly.

Now, they might not kill the critters if given a choice between pre-made non-meat food in a box and on the hoof animal food, but that is just laziness.

 

But your average person won't want to see animals die and/or suffer in the last moments of their life.  Not if they can help.  They'd rather have someone else do it which is exactly the point I was making and the producer of "Faces of Death" was.  Death is NOT a pretty thing.  It can be violent and tragic and most humans want to avoid it.

WHY do you think they hide slaughter houses way out in the country and don't keep them right behind McDonald's or the grocery store?  Hearing animals scream in pain does not create a pleasant atmosphere!

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Actually, it is because they

Actually, it is because they stink.

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mellestad wrote:Actually, it

mellestad wrote:

Actually, it is because they stink.

That too but it's not the only reason!


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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Actually, it is because they stink.

That too but it's not the only reason!

It's those damn empathy-generating mirror neurons firing off when we see something which we think of as having some form of self-awareness.

The really frightening thing about humans is just how readily we can get habituated to bad stuff, as in the infamous Stanford Prison Experiments.

Or Nazi prison camp guards.

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mellestad wrote:Actually, it

mellestad wrote:

Actually, it is because they stink.

No, it's because they stink and because if people heard animals screaming during the slaughter process, they wouldn't eat meat anymore. It's also because slaughter houses are huge and eating establishments are usually located in densely populated areas of town where any sort of farm animals are banned.

Did you know that there is a law that prohibits anyone from filming or photographing the inside of a slaughter house? Stink has nothing to do with that law.

From what I've seen, animal farms and slaughter houses are disgusting.

 

To reply to the OP...

Like Melle said, we've been over this recently with Blake and others but, since my feelings change often on this subject, I don't mind replying again.

After reading the arguments by Blake for being a Vegan, I was determined to give it a try. After about 3 weeks, I was feeling so puny I decided to start eating an egg and a piece of sausage every other day for breakfast - and I feel (physically) much better. However, if I were to dwell on where the sausage came from or, any food for that matter, I would most likely starve to death.

So, I eat very little meat and when I do, I appreciate the sacrifice made by that animal.

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And as we've mentioned

And as we've mentioned before, the animal doesn't care how you feel.  I'm not sure why that makes you feel better about it.

 

If animals are 'screaming' during the slaughter process, someone is fucking something up.  The zoning stuff is accurate though, but a bit beyond the point anyone was getting at.

 

You can add soy, tofu, meal replacements, etc. to make up for the protein and fat.  Or just do vegetarian and eat the egg but skip the sausage.

 

Those debates changed my eating habits too, well, provisionally.  I'm...well, so far today I've been about 40% Vegetarian, lol.  Yesterday was 100% vegetarian.  I've got some stuff ordered that is more vegan.

 

If it turns into too much of a pain in the ass though I'm giving it up and damn the morality.  We'll see.

 

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mellestad wrote:And as we've

mellestad wrote:

And as we've mentioned before, the animal doesn't care how you feel.  I'm not sure why that makes you feel better about it.

 

If animals are 'screaming' during the slaughter process, someone is fucking something up.  The zoning stuff is accurate though, but a bit beyond the point anyone was getting at.

 

You can add soy, tofu, meal replacements, etc. to make up for the protein and fat.  Or just do vegetarian and eat the egg but skip the sausage.

 

Those debates changed my eating habits too, well, provisionally.  I'm...well, so far today I've been about 40% Vegetarian, lol.  Yesterday was 100% vegetarian.  I've got some stuff ordered that is more vegan.

 

If it turns into too much of a pain in the ass though I'm giving it up and damn the morality.  We'll see.

 

  LOL. It became a pain in the ass for me so, I pretty much gave it up. Like you, some days I eat zero meat others, I eat what's on the table.

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Sandycane wrote:mellestad

Sandycane wrote:

mellestad wrote:

And as we've mentioned before, the animal doesn't care how you feel.  I'm not sure why that makes you feel better about it.

 

If animals are 'screaming' during the slaughter process, someone is fucking something up.  The zoning stuff is accurate though, but a bit beyond the point anyone was getting at.

 

You can add soy, tofu, meal replacements, etc. to make up for the protein and fat.  Or just do vegetarian and eat the egg but skip the sausage.

 

Those debates changed my eating habits too, well, provisionally.  I'm...well, so far today I've been about 40% Vegetarian, lol.  Yesterday was 100% vegetarian.  I've got some stuff ordered that is more vegan.

 

If it turns into too much of a pain in the ass though I'm giving it up and damn the morality.  We'll see.

 

  LOL. It became a pain in the ass for me so, I pretty much gave it up. Like you, some days I eat zero meat others, I eat what's on the table.

 

You guys should try using more RICE in dishes.  Did you know rice is the staple food for 2/3 of the planet? 2/3!!

Try eating Indian food, Chinese food, and Mexican food and learing how to cook it.  Indian food has the number one cancer fighting agent in Turmeric according to many cancer researchers. Of course you can order out too.

It's really NOT as hard as you think. After all what can you do with 3 or 4 corpses??  I mean you have the same 3 or 4 dead animals that are the most popular ones, chicken, beef, and pork.

If you just look into Indian and Chinese food you'll see they have great foods for breakfast, lunch, and dinner PLUS you have plenty of American vegetarian/vegan food like pastas, American rice dishes, tofu, wraps, veggie burgers , veggie dogs, Mexican food, veggie pizza, etc.

I've not even gotten into Mexican food and they have TONS of great vegetarian dishes with beans, sour cream, and guacamole being staples in the Mexican diet!

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I'm VERY sorry for the

I'm VERY sorry for the multiple posts but there was a transmission problem over my stupid connection and it won't let me delete the extra posts! MOD please delete!

Thanks!

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I get your point! Sheesh!

I get your point! Sheesh! You didn't need to say it SIX times!

Actually I like all those foods you mentioned (SIX times)... I just don't like to cook - or, grocery shop. I look for fast and easy.

I did make black-eyed peas for New Years with the honey glazed ham.

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LOL..Great post Sandycane!

LOL..Great post Sandycane! Exploiting the temporary lull in my internet connection huh?

I don't like to cook either but I buy a lot of those foods ready made.  As you know Chinese food is everywhere and if you tell them vegetarian they always have it.  One of my favorite dishes is rice and instant beans.  The kind you add boiling water to the beans and let it cook.  You add some hot sauce and smashed up tortilla chips in there! Or you can do it with just the instant beans without the rice.

It's FANTASTIC! It's probably my favorite dish of ALL TIME!!  I have it at least 3 times a week!! And don't mention the flatulence. I NEVER get it and that really only happens if your body isn't used to it.  Once you are on a plant based diet for a while your body automically adusts or you NEVER get it at all.  I've talked to many other vegetarians who never get the flatulence either.

When I say plant based diet you don't have to be 100% vegetarian.  You can be 90%+ vegetarian and that's still basically a plant based diet as long as it's not junk food!

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 Coming in really late in

 Coming in really late in here, but I have 2 slaughter houses about 5 minute car drive where I live, and I live in Toronto, these 2 slaughter houses are actually 1 block away from a home depot and a few blocks away from a walmart.......yeah the smell can be strong on a hot summer day if you pass by there, but really not overwhelming like china town in the dead heat of summer. As for the adversion to killing animals...well what do you mean most people, because I can say it really depends on the culture of the people your talking about, killing chickens for the most part most people I know don't have an issue. Some may not want to get their hands dirty per say. Lobsters is another one most don't have an issue boiling alive either.


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Sandycane wrote:mellestad

Sandycane wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Actually, it is because they stink.

No, it's because they stink and because if people heard animals screaming during the slaughter process, they wouldn't eat meat anymore. It's also because slaughter houses are huge and eating establishments are usually located in densely populated areas of town where any sort of farm animals are banned.

Did you know that there is a law that prohibits anyone from filming or photographing the inside of a slaughter house? Stink has nothing to do with that law.

From what I've seen, animal farms and slaughter houses are disgusting.

 

To reply to the OP...

Like Melle said, we've been over this recently with Blake and others but, since my feelings change often on this subject, I don't mind replying again.

After reading the arguments by Blake for being a Vegan, I was determined to give it a try. After about 3 weeks, I was feeling so puny I decided to start eating an egg and a piece of sausage every other day for breakfast - and I feel (physically) much better. However, if I were to dwell on where the sausage came from or, any food for that matter, I would most likely starve to death.

So, I eat very little meat and when I do, I appreciate the sacrifice made by that animal.

 

Sandycane,

 

Some people live in Northern Russia, some people live in Sudan.  It is so bad and unhealthy to live there especially compared to San Francisco.  Do you really think that all people living in other parts of the planet want to move to San Francisco?  Of course not (I hope).  Many of those people LOVE their places and about everything about their places.   First of all, they got used to live there from their childhood, and they are adopted to living there.  There are so many things humans can get used to .... like killing animals for food, or eating no animals at all.  It does not really matter what you or me think people would or wouldn't do if they watch slaughtering  animals, or watch how tofu is made.  People get used to vegetarian or meet eating without considerable harm to their health.  If you try to eat exclusively New York Times newspaper, you may get used to it too after a few weeks ... before you die.  The difference from vegetarian or heavy meet "diet" is that newspapers do not work. 

 

Also, Sandicane, do you fly?  I mean on airplanes?  Or would you ride a car with leather interior?  Or would you wear leather shoes?

 

Until your answer is 'no' to all such and similar questions, you will by a hypocrite if you say that you want to be a vegetarian because of some moral principles about animals.

 

Sorry, I'm pretty much fed up with discussions of the type of "Couch potato" vs. "Couch steak".  Get real, eat tofu and kill a cow.

 

For your health. Smiling

 

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I'm thinking of organizing a

I'm thinking of organizing a BBQ in the parking lot of PETA headquarters... and serve baby seal "club" sandwiches, veal burgers, and puppy nuggets.

...and while we're at it, we'll be reading old copies of Huck Finn.


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:
 

Sandycane,

 Some people live in Northern Russia, some people live in Sudan.  It is so bad and unhealthy to live there especially compared to San Francisco.  Do you really think that all people living in other parts of the planet want to move to San Francisco?  Of course not (I hope).  Many of those people LOVE their places and about everything about their places.   First of all, they got used to live there from their childhood, and they are adopted to living there.  There are so many things humans can get used to .... like killing animals for food, or eating no animals at all.  It does not really matter what you or me think people would or wouldn't do if they watch slaughtering  animals, or watch how tofu is made.  People get used to vegetarian or meet eating without considerable harm to their health.  If you try to eat exclusively New York Times newspaper, you may get used to it too after a few weeks ... before you die.  The difference from vegetarian or heavy meet "diet" is that newspapers do not work. 

 

Also, Sandicane, do you fly?  I mean on airplanes?  Or would you ride a car with leather interior?  Or would you wear leather shoes?

 

Until your answer is 'no' to all such and similar questions, you will by a hypocrite if you say that you want to be a vegetarian because of some moral principles about animals.

 

Sorry, I'm pretty much fed up with discussions of the type of "Couch potato" vs. "Couch steak".  Get real, eat tofu and kill a cow.

 

For your health. Smiling

 

100%

Yes, it's all about what you are used to doing and eating and where you are from. Personally, I love fur and suede garments...from certain animals. I wouldn't want to wear a cat or dog coat because, to me, they are designated pets and not 'farm' animals. Pony fur coats used to be popular when my mother was a girl but, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing one.

It's all mostly subjective.

The main issue that hasn't been mentioned yet is how everyone is different biologically. Some people require special diets while others don't. Some are more sensitive to certain foods and some have allergies. I think it's more important to know your own body and what is good for you and what is not than to try to imitate a popular trend.

I also think it's important to eat foods in season and what is grown in your local area.

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There aren't any vegans in Ethiopia

 I sympathies with the bleeding hearts, I used to be one also.  You can't be naive about morality, of course it is subjective.

My perspective changed when I had my kids, prior to that the only thing I've ever had to 'care' for was my dogs.  I loved those animals much like the original OP mentioned.  As soon as my kids came along I understand that necessity is the mother of invention and re-invention.  If my kids were starving I wouldn't hesitate to slaughter the family dog to feed them.

Furthermore I argue that the only reason we can survive as vegetarians is because we live in a supermarket based western culture.  I grew up in a third world country where 70% of the population had to grow their own food to survive.   I didn't know what a vegetarian was until we immigrated to Canada at the age of 15.  I remember the whole idea seemed very silly to me.  When you need to invest the energy to grow your own food the majority of nutrients that you can get from fruit/vegetables during summer/fall you lack in winter/spring.  That's where you must eat meat in order to survive and be healthy. 

The whole idea of eating some animals and not others is just as silly as praying to one god and not others... it's all a subjective fairytale.  

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Ktulu wrote: Furthermore I

Ktulu wrote:

Furthermore I argue that the only reason we can survive as vegetarians is because we live in a supermarket based western culture.  I grew up in a third world country where 70% of the population had to grow their own food to survive.   I didn't know what a vegetarian was until we immigrated to Canada at the age of 15.  I remember the whole idea seemed very silly to me.  When you need to invest the energy to grow your own food the majority of nutrients that you can get from fruit/vegetables during summer/fall you lack in winter/spring.  That's where you must eat meat in order to survive and be healthy. 

The whole idea of eating some animals and not others is just as silly as praying to one god and not others... it's all a subjective fairytale.  

Interesting... what country did you migrate to canada from?

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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:WHY

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

WHY do you think they hide slaughter houses way out in the country and don't keep them right behind McDonald's or the grocery store?  Hearing animals scream in pain does not create a pleasant atmosphere!

(I can't believe I missed this earlier)

PFFFFFTTT! One of my grandmothers lived about 3-5 miles from a swine slaughterhouse, and even after hearing pigs screech on and on, the only aversion I have to pork is the kind that comes from unnecessary government spending. The main thing unpleasant about slaughtered swine is the decibel level.

With that aside, I've been told that the gory details of kosher butchering is enough to sicken many (Jewish?) people into vegetarianism.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:Interesting...

Kapkao wrote:

Interesting... what country did you migrate to canada from?

Romania, I grew up in the country and we emigrated here in '92 shortly after the 'revolution'.  I want to add that even people in cities were and probably still are growing chickens and pigs in small farms besides apartment buildings.  It's a way of life that nobody in the western world can truly comprehend.  

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Kapkao wrote:(I can't

Kapkao wrote:

(I can't believe I missed this earlier)

PFFFFFTTT! One of my grandmothers lived about 3-5 miles from a swine slaughterhouse, and even after hearing pigs screech on and on, the only aversion I have to pork is the kind that comes from unnecessary government spending. The main thing unpleasant about slaughtered swine is the decibel level.

With that aside, I've been told that the gory details of kosher butchering is enough to sicken many (Jewish?) people into vegetarianism.

I'm 100% for getting meat on our plates, but 100% against torture.  Kosher/halal practices would be considered animal cruelty if it wasn't covered by some major religion.  If we discovered some wako in a basement praying to a wooden figurine of a turd and slaughtering a goat in a kosher manner, we would lock him up.  One more beef (pun intended) against religion.

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It really is ultimately

It really is ultimately subjective, just what relative 'value' you put on the life of an animal, or its living conditions and 'right' to live out a 'normal' life.

I do not put those at zero, especially for animals with more apparent self-awareness, but how could you really make it an objective quantity? Which is where I had a real problem in that other thread with Blake. I appreciate his sentiment, but I can't see how you can take out the subjective, personal assessment aspect.

The other factor is that I think it ultimately makes no sense to not put some value on our own personal survival and enjoyment of life.

On the need to eat meat, that has now been way reduced, and the factor that has become important globally, which really did not arise in the time when man was just another creature in a big ecosystem, is the resource issue and sustainability. It does take far more land, and more food resources to rear a cow than we get out of it. It is still sort-of defensible in places where the lower level food resources are sparse and/or not so easily harvested directly and converted into nutritious food for ourselves, so letting some animal which can use them graze and convert them into animal flesh which we can use makes sense. So grass-fed is far more defensible than grain-fed, assuming there are no other competing uses for the land required.

And finally we have the issue of methane production and the climate impact.

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Technically, there is

Technically, there is nothing wrong with eating meat for most of people - only with how is the meat produced. Eating animals is normal, we sort of have the right when we care for them all the time and feed them.
But keeping them in extreme conditions of industrial breeding, in cages, stuffed with hormones and antibiotics, etc, that is barbaric. I'd have no objection to ban of this practice. If that would decrease the offer of meat and increase the price, then so be it. (I'd just have to buy more garam masala to make the vegetables not taste that terrible)

I'd also like the ban to come from above, because I don't see how market forces or customers (including myself) have the guts to do it. It could be introduced to public as a method to decrease the methane emissions into atmosphere, which contributes to global warming.

I think that the choice of every person to not eat meat or some kinds of meat must be always respected. Still more of younger people choose to become vegetarians. Thumbs up to them.

 

My opinion as an esotericist is, that eating meat influences consciousness. Those who eat a cow (or any relatively highly conscious warm-blooded mammal), have their consciousness decreased a little to the level of a cow, because of remaining cow life forces in the meat. This does not occur with cold-blooded animals like fishes or seafood, their life force is weak and even, so to speak, external, because they're not warm-blooded. So eating simple-minded cold-blooded creatures makes their meat easily used by the body, without influencing our consciousness. But relatively intelligent animals like horses, dogs or cats, these are absolutely unfit for eating, I think our civilization has much better uses for them.

Maintaining one's pure consciousness by this choice of food is meant to pass through a significant point in personal development. It is a first such a major waypoint or initiation, and it is a demonstration of control over your body. (and its voracity, apparently) Before that point in spiritual evolution people do not have much use for vegetarianism. And neither after that, after this first initiation as it is called, the consciousness is not overly dampened even if the person eats meat, smokes or drinks some alcohol. There are several millions of people who are almost ready to take this great step in personal development and so they should take seriously any considerations of vegetarianism they have. Maybe then, after 10 or 15 years of vegetarianism they will awake from a strange dream, feeling really sick after the shock of first , yet ready to progress in personal development.

Some young folks born nowadays become vegetarians out of their own will in their early teens, which is a good sign. That is, I guess, as soon as they are old enough to hold their opinion in front of parents. Parents should support vegetarianism of their children, even though some don't, thanks to outdated dietary notions and ideas. I think it's possible and desirable, but I'd also consult a dietologist about vegetarianism of children in growth.

In next stages of our civilization we might completely stop eating animals and find better uses for them. Thanks to genetic engineering various animals might become intelligent enough to aid in various works. There are factory jobs or paperwork that a trained monkey could do.

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Ktulu wrote:Kapkao

Ktulu wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Interesting... what country did you migrate to canada from?

Romania, I grew up in the country and we emigrated here in '92 shortly after the 'revolution'.  I want to add that even people in cities were and probably still are growing chickens and pigs in small farms besides apartment buildings.  It's a way of life that nobody in the western world can truly comprehend.  

Romania is a developing country? Well, since it's 92 that may actually be the case...

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 I don't have a ton of time

 I don't have a ton of time to respond but just wanted to say I think it is really weird that people eat cows and pigs but get upset at the prospect of eating a dog or cat. Eating anything is ok with me. 

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To a large extent, I value

To a large extent, I value my taste for chicken more than the welfare of the chicken. Ergo, I eat chicken.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Beyond Saving wrote: I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I don't have a ton of time to respond but just wanted to say I think it is really weird that people eat cows and pigs but get upset at the prospect of eating a dog or cat. Eating anything is ok with me. 

It is only 'weird' if you expect people to have come to have such preferences by rational processes, which would be weird, or at least unusual.


 

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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote: I

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
I struggle with this issue, it is difficult for me to land firmly on any side of the fence. On the one hand eating meat seems very natural, and some animals do seem like they came about specifically for that reason, to eat grass and feed the predators.

 

OK, as a kid, I used to work on a farm. I am well aware of the difference between carnivores and herbivores. Let's do a quick check here: What manner of teeth to humans have?

 

If you go for carnivores you are almost right. The fact is that we are omnivores. We have the front teeth of carnivores and the back teeth of herbivores.

 

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
On the other hand life is life, what really gives us the right to take the life of "lesser" species. Where is the line???

 

OK, I am game, what do you consider to be a lesser species? Basically every animal that has ever been eaten is at the current pinnacle of evolution for that particular clade.

 

Past that, I have a friend who actually worked for several years as a cowboy. Here is what happens when you kill a cow:

 

First, the cow is taken out to some place farily far away from the rest of the herd. Then someone stands in front of it and a couple of yards away. A single rifle shot between the eyes and the cow just falls over. There is no magical “cow scream”.

 

After that, someone brings in a pickup truck with a small crane on the back. The back legs are hobbled and the cow is hoisted up. Then the throat is cut and everyone waits until the cow bleeds out. Then the “autopsy cut” is made in the abdomen and the digestive track is carefully removed (because that is where all the e, coli is found).

 

Next, they remove all of the edible organs, including the brain and after that, the cow is quartered. The quarters are lifted onto the truck and it is driven back to the main area where the various buildings are located. They have a sort of “root cellar” type of building where the quarters are stored in a cold underground area for a few weeks while the meat tenderizes. While the quarters are aging, the organ meat is consumed along with the usual diet of various grain products, eggs and whatever else.

 

Later, the quarters are properly butchered. By this time, it is the end of November, so fresh meat is a big deal for thankgiving through xmas. After that, the remaining meat is turned into jerky so that there will be a source of meat all the rest of the year until the process is repeated.

 

As far as slaughter houses go, the actual killing is similar except that the shot is probably from a pneumatic gun that fires a huge steel rod through the cow's brain. The cow still has to be bled out and aged (did you think that fresh meant meant killed yesterday?).

 

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
I struggle with this issue, it is difficult for me to land firmly on any side of the fence. On the one hand eating meat seems very natural, and some animals do seem like they came about specifically for that reason, to eat grass and feed the predators.

 

OK, as a kid, I used to work on a farm. I am well aware of the difference between carnivores and herbivores. Let's do a quick check here: What manner of teeth to humans have?

 

If you go for carnivores you are almost right. The fact is that we are omnivores. We have the front teeth of carnivores and the back teeth of herbivores.

Yyyeah, I'm aware we are omnivores. I never said we were carnivores.  I'm not even defending a poistion here, just asking people's opinions.

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
On the other hand life is life, what really gives us the right to take the life of "lesser" species. Where is the line???

 

OK, I am game, what do you consider to be a lesser species? Basically every animal that has ever been eaten is at the current pinnacle of evolution for that particular clade

I don't necessarily, hence why the word lesser is in quotations, as in for lack of a better word.

 

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
 

As far as slaughter houses go, the actual killing is similar except that the shot is probably from a pneumatic gun that fires a huge steel rod through the cow's brain. The cow still has to be bled out and aged (did you think that fresh meant meant killed yesterday?).

 

No, who are you arguing with here, and what are you arguing.  I have taken no position on the issue, I'm just asking for opinions.   


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 In that case, I say that

 In that case, I say that we are evolved to eat meat. There is no moral question here.

 

Don't get me wrong on this. As I said the the vegan food thread, I don't really see the need to make meat into the only thing that we eat. We can eat pretty much whatever we like. Personally, I eat lots of stuff that would be acceptable under a strict vegan diet. I just fail to see how it is a greater morality to eat plants only.

 

If there is a moral condition here, it lies in the fact that modern people are removed from the real ancestral deal that produces meat. When we had to hunt our meals and we had to kill stuff that we wanted to eat, well, then we were doing as we were evolved to do.

 

When we go to the supermarket, we are removed from the bits that we might get squeamish about.

 

I don't know where you live but if the opportunity obtains, go out in the woods with a bow and arrows and find dinner. If you can do that, then I don't see a problem. On the other hand, if you go to a supermarket and don't mind that plenty of other people did the things that brought the food to your table, then you are accepting the vicarious benefit of other people doing the things that you are not willing to do for yourself.

 

On the other hand, if you really don't want to eat animals, that is fine too. Don't eat them. Feel smugh because you don't and other people do. However, if that is your won't, know that you are in the same boat as people who drive hybrid cars and feel that they are being so very 21st century over the matter despite the fact that hybrid vehicles are world war one technology.

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Seeing blake's not here

 

 

at the moment, I'd like to take the opportunity to say I love eating shortly-prior living flesh, with the blood running down my chinny, chin, chin.

 

 

 

 

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I have never felt a strong

I have never felt a strong desire to eat meat over other kinds of food. I never really liked bacon, in particular.

When I think about it, I have a basic revulsion against eating living creatures, although I am not going to claim such a feeling is rationally defensible - conscious thought is not normally involved in such things. Altho one can eventually modify one's deeper urges and preferences, by forcing yourself to contemplate images and scenarios that invoke negative reactions that are associated with what I more consciously feel I would rather not do.

The first time I tasted freshly cooked, freshly harvested, sea-scallops, I really enjoyed them, but I did feel a slight twinge at the way they were cooked - throwing the freshly collected critters straight onto a barbecue hot-plate.... A bit like boiling lobsters I guess, but almost certainly a 'lesser' awareness, if any.

I certainly do not feel 'smug' about this.

BTW, being at the "pinnacle" of a particular clade simply means that organism is currently the most 'evolved' for that niche, has absolutely no implications as to qualities that might be relevant to assessing its 'greater' or lesser' status, let alone the qualities that someone like myself might be judging it on in this context, such as degree of 'awareness', or subtlety of response to stimuli.

It would make no logical sense to adopt a position of avoiding killing any kind of life, for many reasons, like the fact that it extends all the way down to primitive bacteria and arguably even viruses, and avoiding killing one kind may lead to more death of another, under various contexts.

I have said elsewhere that I have a very rational reason to minimize eating red meat. Sometime ago, I read of research which showed a significant correlation between heavy consumption of 'red meat' and some cancers, such as bowel cancer. As compared to people whose diet was more into vegetables such as broccoli.

No doubt there would need to be some genetic predisposition as well.

But since bowel cancer, which metastasized into liver cancer, took out my Dad, who was very much a steak eater, I don't feel I need any more justification for minimizing red meat in my diet, especially since I feel no particular deprivation in so doing that.

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Kapkao

Kapkao wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

WHY do you think they hide slaughter houses way out in the country and don't keep them right behind McDonald's or the grocery store?  Hearing animals scream in pain does not create a pleasant atmosphere!

(I can't believe I missed this earlier)

PFFFFFTTT! One of my grandmothers lived about 3-5 miles from a swine slaughterhouse, and even after hearing pigs screech on and on, the only aversion I have to pork is the kind that comes from unnecessary government spending. The main thing unpleasant about slaughtered swine is the decibel level.

With that aside, I've been told that the gory details of kosher butchering is enough to sicken many (Jewish?) people into vegetarianism.

 

I kind of agree.  I used to live out in the country and passed a pig farm on the way to work.  They were not being slaughtered.  They lived outside, not in stuffy closed up barns.  You could see them from the highway, outside, running free.  And screaming, and yelling, and smelling.  Ewww.......  I have no idea what they were screaming about, but they seemed to be in constant motion and yelling the entire time.  None of them appeared to be injured.  Pigs are noisy is all I can figure.

 

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THIS is why I wouldn't eat a

THIS is why I wouldn't eat a dog or, any other kind of 'pet' animal.  You wouldn't see a cow, pig or chicken, frog or sea scallop exhibit this kind of loyality.

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Rich Woods wrote:I'm

Rich Woods wrote:

I'm thinking of organizing a BBQ in the parking lot of PETA headquarters... and serve baby seal "club" sandwiches, veal burgers, and puppy nuggets.

...and while we're at it, we'll be reading old copies of Huck Finn.

ROFLMAO ! That was great Rich.

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BobSpence1 wrote:BTW, being

BobSpence1 wrote:
BTW, being at the "pinnacle" of a particular clade simply means that organism is currently the most 'evolved' for that niche, has absolutely no implications as to qualities that might be relevant to assessing its 'greater' or lesser' status, let alone the qualities that someone like myself might be judging it on in this context, such as degree of 'awareness', or subtlety of response to stimuli.

 

It would make no logical sense to adopt a position of avoiding killing any kind of life, for many reasons, like the fact that it extends all the way down to primitive bacteria and arguably even viruses, and avoiding killing one kind may lead to more death of another, under various contexts.

 

OK, I see no merit in claiming that you agree with me on this. Still, it seems that we are probably heading in the same direction. One could justify a vegetarian diet just as easily by by claiming a general hate of plants as a love of animals.

 

BobSpence1 wrote:
I have said elsewhere that I have a very rational reason to minimize eating red meat. Sometime ago, I read of research which showed a significant correlation between heavy consumption of 'red meat' and some cancers, such as bowel cancer. As compared to people whose diet was more into vegetables such as broccoli.

 

A couple of thoughts come to mind here.

 

So red meat might be linked to cancer. OMG! CANCER! Does that mean that there are no cancers that might come from vegetables? Or does it mean that the matter has not been studied sufficiently enough to see what might be going on?

 

Really, broccoli is one of my favorite vegetables. However, it aggravates my gout.

 

Now gout is not something that will kill you. It just makes it suck to stand up. Really, would you like to be in your 40's and have a condition where your favorite veg makes you want to remain seated?

 

Against that, you could be in your 70's and have whatever is going to be the end of you. Honestly, nobody has ever died because they were too old to live. Old age is not a cause of death. Stuff that kills you is. If nothing happened that would kill you until you are 10,000 years old, well then you would be the oldest man on the planet.

 

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I have already made the

I have already made the point that ultimately there is little rationality behind our preferences when it comes to our attitudes and feelings to animals of all kinds as potential food sources. In my remark about the whole range of what could be called 'life', I was thinking of extreme reactions to avoiding killing anything, such as with the Jaines, who don't even want to eat micro-organisms, which I regard as rather silly.

I was not trying to make any general point linking red meat and cancer. But the fact that there is some correlation, from at least some scientific studies, consistent with with my own father's diet and cause of death, is an entirely reasonable observation to base my dietary decisions on, when I personally have no strong urge to eat the stuff. If it is served up at a dinner I am attending, I will eat it, if it is adequately tasty and chewable. In my case, it is a simple and personally cost-free precaution. I don't miss it.

You are way over-reacting to my comments, reading too much into what I am saying.

I am sorry for your reaction to broccolli. AFAIK, I don't have any such sensitivities, but I probably should get tests, just in case there is something that is likely to cause me problems, perhaps in the future.

The only serious reaction I have had was to peniccilin.

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Sandycane wrote:THIS is why

Sandycane wrote:

THIS is why I wouldn't eat a dog or, any other kind of 'pet' animal.  You wouldn't see a cow, pig or chicken, frog or sea scallop exhibit this kind of loyality.

Actually Sandy, you would be surprised at the loyalty a pig can display. In many respects, I don't think there is that much different between a dog and a pig except that pigs are tastier. As far as intelligence I believe that a dog and pig are pretty close and many people do keep pigs as pets. Now I wouldn't eat my dog or any other animal I had an emotional connection with, but I don't have a problem with eating or other people eating dogs or cats in general. 

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Sandycane wrote:THIS is why

Sandycane wrote:

THIS is why I wouldn't eat a dog or, any other kind of 'pet' animal.  You wouldn't see a cow, pig or chicken, frog or sea scallop exhibit this kind of loyality.

That is a moving picture Sandycane.

But, I am a "dog" person and have a tendency to view dogs a bit above the rest of the animal kingdom. (I am well aware of the fact that there is no logical basis for this. It is purely emotional on my part). I was raised around dogs and have a special affinity for dogs.  I think I have fonder memories of my childhood dogs than any kids I went to school with or most of my family. Just a personal bias on my part with no real logic other than personal feeling.

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harleysportster wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

THIS is why I wouldn't eat a dog or, any other kind of 'pet' animal.  You wouldn't see a cow, pig or chicken, frog or sea scallop exhibit this kind of loyality.

That is a moving picture Sandycane.

But, I am a "dog" person and have a tendency to view dogs a bit above the rest of the animal kingdom. (I am well aware of the fact that there is no logical basis for this. It is purely emotional on my part). I was raised around dogs and have a special affinity for dogs.  I think I have fonder memories of my childhood dogs than any kids I went to school with or most of my family. Just a personal bias on my part with no real logic other than personal feeling.

Ooop, there goes another thing we have in common - we both seem to prefer the company of animals to that of people.

I'm more a cat person than a dog person but, I love most all animals - furry or, feathered - honestly, since having this European Starling in the house talking to me all day long, I've had to elevate the status of  birds to be equal to a dog or, cat. Sweet Pea has a great personality, and that's not my imagination.

Seriously, when you spend quality time with a non-human critter and really get to 'know' them and try to communicate with them and understand them, it's hard to say that humans are the superior species - we're just different from them.

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OMGosh, check out our join

OMGosh, check out our join date - I joined just one day ahead of you! This is getting kind of spooky!

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I have just as much a

I have just as much a problem with eating an animal as I do a plant or bacteria.  They are all things I would rather do without.  However to survive I must do something.  It would be more corrupt of me to single out a specific group so I eat that which I can stomach.

Sounds made up...
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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

THIS is why I wouldn't eat a dog or, any other kind of 'pet' animal.  You wouldn't see a cow, pig or chicken, frog or sea scallop exhibit this kind of loyality.

Actually Sandy, you would be surprised at the loyalty a pig can display. In many respects, I don't think there is that much different between a dog and a pig except that pigs are tastier. As far as intelligence I believe that a dog and pig are pretty close and many people do keep pigs as pets. Now I wouldn't eat my dog or any other animal I had an emotional connection with, but I don't have a problem with eating or other people eating dogs or cats in general. 

Dogs are supposedly  even tastier than farm animals in the countries where they aren't taboo meats.

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Magus wrote:I have just as

Magus wrote:

I have just as much a problem with eating an animal as I do a plant or bacteria.  They are all things I would rather do without.  However to survive I must do something.  It would be more corrupt of me to single out a specific group so I eat that which I can stomach.

None of which makes sense to me.

Which just underlines how personally subjective such reactions and judgments are.

You would rather do without having to eat animal or plant material?

What about dairy, which is a product of animals, but not part of the body of an animal? Although some cheeses often contain some bacteria.

Dairy is about the only food I can think of off-hand which is not made up of animal or plant cells.

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Magus wrote:I have just as

Magus wrote:

I have just as much a problem with eating an animal as I do a plant or bacteria.  They are all things I would rather do without.  However to survive I must do something.  It would be more corrupt of me to single out a specific group so I eat that which I can stomach.

How did you get to such an attitude? Isn't death and sacrifice of life something very common, downright natural? How did you decide to make no difference between creatures with brain and consciousness, and without it?

No offense meant, but did you ever consider that plants or even some animals are supposed to be eaten? Their lives are ephemeral and the highest goal they can achieve is to serve a higher cause of feeding an intelligent life form. Every natural kingdom lives of the kingdom below it.
Of course, animal serving as a companion has much greater purpose than to be eaten. But some animals are just asking for it. Even my mother, such a spiritual and vegetarianic person helped with slaughtering our turkeys, many years ago when we had them. These are extremely ugly, stupid and malevolent creatures, just about right height to peck small children in face or eye, which they would gladly do, given an opportunity.

 

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Luminon wrote:Magus wrote:I

Luminon wrote:

Magus wrote:

I have just as much a problem with eating an animal as I do a plant or bacteria.  They are all things I would rather do without.  However to survive I must do something.  It would be more corrupt of me to single out a specific group so I eat that which I can stomach.

How did you get to such an attitude? Isn't death and sacrifice of life something very common, downright natural? How did you decide to make no difference between creatures with brain and consciousness, and without it?

No offense meant, but did you ever consider that plants or even some animals are supposed to be eaten? Their lives are ephemeral and the highest goal they can achieve is to serve a higher cause of feeding an intelligent life form. Every natural kingdom lives of the kingdom below it.
Of course, animal serving as a companion has much greater purpose than to be eaten. But some animals are just asking for it. Even my mother, such a spiritual and vegetarianic person helped with slaughtering our turkeys, many years ago when we had them. These are extremely ugly, stupid and malevolent creatures, just about right height to peck small children in face or eye, which they would gladly do, given an opportunity.

 

 

If you were planning on eating me I would probably peck you in the eye too.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X