# Astonishing numerical properties?

termina
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Astonishing numerical properties?

Hello

In the following video:

In the 1st verse in Fatiha Chapter of the Quran, muslims found mathematical relation:

.بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ

The verse has 19 letters and 4 words and the numerical values of each word can be check here:

From numerical data of this verse, he creates very large numbers in each of the 10 methods he gave and we see they are all multiple of 19.

Then, he deduces that  this is only explanable with a mind whose intelligence is greater than human, because it's impossible for us to fine-tune the number of letters and their numerical value in a text we invent to get both numerous complex mathematical properties.

His calculations are mathematically right, even his counting of letters and numerical values are (i checked),

but is his conclusion correct as well?

Ktulu
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Really? ... you have to go

Really? ... you have to go there? what does your common sense tell you? If every sentence in the Quran (value of words) added up to 42, and if you read it backwards and got a cookie recipe I would conclude that whoever wrote it had a LOT of time on their hands.  I would also admire their dedication to number 42 and enjoy a cookie.  Afterwards I'd go on with my day, and not for a second think that this was put there by God.  This isn't the evidence that people are looking for... freaking god of multiples of 19? wtf? lol

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc

BobSpence
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When you are prepared to

When you are prepared to play around with various combinations of mathematical operations on even a small number of numerical values, there are ultimately many, many possible results, so it really isn't all that remarkable.

To impress us, they would have to list, for comparison, all the possible results you could get from applying all possible sequences of operations of similar complexity to all possible letter sequences of that length, and see how many came up with your magic number.

IOW, don't just keep going until you find what you want, and then stop.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology

butterbattle
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termina wrote:Then, he

termina wrote:
Then, he deduces that  this is only explanable with a mind whose intelligence is greater than human, because it's impossible for us to fine-tune the number of letters and their numerical value in a text we invent to get both numerous complex mathematical properties.

Impossible??

This is nothing more than manipulating numbers with basic mathematical operations like addition and subtraction. This is beyond easy for a few mathematicians with 21st century technology. We don't even have to try to "fine tune" such mathematical properties. We can derive results like this from almost any text of significant length, if you simply play with the numbers enough.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

lalib
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At the one minute mark in

At the one minute mark in the video you posted, there is a mistake. The third row and third column lists '6' as the number of letters in the word Al-Rahman. In Arabic, there are seven letters (Alif, Lam, Ra, Ha, Meem, Alif, Noon) in that word, which brings the total number of letters to 20. The rest of the video is therefore worthless.

This same number manipulation is seen in the Bible Code. Which do you believe, the Quran Code or the Bible Code? Hopefully, you can explain why both are ludicrous.

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OK, let me see if I am

OK, let me see if I am following this guy. He is using gematria to create several really freaking large numbers. And they all have 19 as one factor. What are the odds of that?

Well, if we limit ourselves to only considering the natural numbers, then the odds are 1:19 for each of them. Really, the odds of winning a million dollars in the lottery are something like fifty million to one (depending on the system being used to generate the winning numbers of course). Yet if you consider all the lotteries around the world, someone wins a million dollars every couple of weeks and we don't see any miracles there.

Then too, the fact is that the really big numbers in that video are being generated by a limited number of algorithms which all have the number 19 as what amounts to a hard coded value. I suspect that by doing that, one probably increases the odds of getting numbers divisible by 19. Even if that is not strictly correct, there is also the idea that the “scholar” who came up with that could, possibly have generated many algorithms beyond what is presented and only passed on those that do produce the desired results.

Now, let me beat Pineapple to the punch:

Fucking mathematics, how does it work?

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

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termina wrote: Hello  In

termina wrote:

Hello

In the following video:

In the 1st verse in Fatiha Chapter of the Quran, muslims found mathematical relation:

.بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ

The verse has 19 letters and 4 words and the numerical values of each word can be check here:

From numerical data of this verse, he creates very large numbers in each of the 10 methods he gave and we see they are all multiple of 19.

Then, he deduces that  this is only explanable with a mind whose intelligence is greater than human, because it's impossible for us to fine-tune the number of letters and their numerical value in a text we invent to get both numerous complex mathematical properties.

His calculations are mathematically right, even his counting of letters and numerical values are (i checked),

but is his conclusion correct as well?

First off... I don't speak or read that language, so I can't confirm anything about it without resorting to something some stranger put up on the internet.

Second... Numerical value of words and letters? What are you talking about? Who sets these supposed values? Even assuming these letters have numerical value, what does that have to do with some imaginary boogieman in the sky? "...this is only explanable (sic) with a mind whose intelligence" is warped.

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Ah Tadgh,  That is called

That is called gematria. It is found in various ancient cultures who use their alphabet interchangeably with numbers. I would assume that you are aware of Roman numerals, well most ancient cultures had something going along those lines.

Unlike the Romans, for Hebrew and later Arabic writing, each letter of the alphabet corresponds to some numerical value. Then every word can be considered to be a number and subject to mathematical manipulations. Which is of course bullshit but then we are talking about ignorant goat herders here.

This is where all of the various numbered things in revelation come from. Each corresponds to some figure that was relevant to the audience for who it was being written. For example, if you write out “six hundred three score and six” in Hebrew, it also happens to read “Nero Caesar”.

Another example is found in the old Hebrew financial records. If you have seven sheep and you buy eight more, you now own sixteen minus one sheep. You may have noticed that certain theists will only write g-d and not god. Same thing at work. Ten plus five would spell out a short form of the name of god, so when it comes up in financial transactions, they would dance around the matter textually.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

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Ktulu
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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

That is called gematria. It is found in various ancient cultures who use their alphabet interchangeably with numbers. I would assume that you are aware of Roman numerals, well most ancient cultures had something going along those lines.

Unlike the Romans, for Hebrew and later Arabic writing, each letter of the alphabet corresponds to some numerical value. Then every word can be considered to be a number and subject to mathematical manipulations. Which is of course bullshit but then we are talking about ignorant goat herders here.

This is where all of the various numbered things in revelation come from. Each corresponds to some figure that was relevant to the audience for who it was being written. For example, if you write out “six hundred three score and six” in Hebrew, it also happens to read “Nero Caesar”.

Another example is found in the old Hebrew financial records. If you have seven sheep and you buy eight more, you now own sixteen minus one sheep. You may have noticed that certain theists will only write g-d and not god. Same thing at work. Ten plus five would spell out a short form of the name of god, so when it comes up in financial transactions, they would dance around the matter textually.

I remember being 10 and hearing about numerology and hidden meaning in dates.  It seemed so cool at first that my friend and I were writing all the dates down and trying to find different meanings for different events.  I also remember screwing up my math and coming up with some amazing insights... only to later realize that the formula age+month of birth /day +year of birth = year of death is idiotic.  For a few weeks it was fun, then reality and common sense crept in.

Now as an adult I happen to be a bit more skeptical.  The fact that we would entertain the idea of silly misconceptions like numerology or other similar mystical mumbo jumbo makes me laugh.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc

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I haven't heard it called

I haven't heard it called gematria, but I have at least heard of numerology. When I heard of it, it seemed like such utter nonsense and it seemed to appeal (as the basis far any argumentative value) to complete morons, so I never bothered to gain any particular understanding of it.

After reading your description (Answers...) it seems like rather unnecessarily confusing jumble of symbols of mixed intent.

I suppose that makes me some kind of bigot (to someone at least.)

HeWhoNeverWas
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lalib wrote: At the one

lalib wrote:

At the one minute mark in the video you posted, there is a mistake. The third row and third column lists '6' as the number of letters in the word Al-Rahman. In Arabic, there are seven letters (Alif, Lam, Ra, Ha, Meem, Alif, Noon) in that word, which brings the total number of letters to 20. The rest of the video is therefore worthless.

I haven't read the whole thread, just wanted to point that out.

The word "Al-Rahman" is actually six letters, not seven. There is no extra 'Alif' before the 'Noon'.

lalib
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HeWhoNeverWas wrote:lalib

HeWhoNeverWas wrote:

lalib wrote:

At the one minute mark in the video you posted, there is a mistake. The third row and third column lists '6' as the number of letters in the word Al-Rahman. In Arabic, there are seven letters (Alif, Lam, Ra, Ha, Meem, Alif, Noon) in that word, which brings the total number of letters to 20. The rest of the video is therefore worthless.

I haven't read the whole thread, just wanted to point that out.

The word "Al-Rahman" is actually six letters, not seven. There is no extra 'Alif' before the 'Noon'.

I don't know if you speak Arabic, but it's seven letters. If you pronounce the word, it's clear that there are seven letters.

See the little line in the word Rahman? That's the 'alif', stylistically sometimes it is omitted, but it is there and it is pronounced.

HeWhoNeverWas
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lalib wrote: HeWhoNeverWas

lalib wrote:

HeWhoNeverWas wrote:

lalib wrote:

At the one minute mark in the video you posted, there is a mistake. The third row and third column lists '6' as the number of letters in the word Al-Rahman. In Arabic, there are seven letters (Alif, Lam, Ra, Ha, Meem, Alif, Noon) in that word, which brings the total number of letters to 20. The rest of the video is therefore worthless.

I haven't read the whole thread, just wanted to point that out.

The word "Al-Rahman" is actually six letters, not seven. There is no extra 'Alif' before the 'Noon'.

I don't know if you speak Arabic, but it's seven letters. If you pronounce the word, it's clear that there are seven letters.

See the little line in the word Rahman? That's the 'alif', stylistically sometimes it is omitted, but it is there and it is pronounced.

Arabic is my first language.

The 'alif' you refer to is a an enunciation tool called a "hamza", sorta like the line above the e in the word 'cliché' (albeit the é is a variant of the letter E). The position of this line changes how you read the word.

Here's the entire Arabic alphabet. "Alif" is the first letter (the equivalent of the letter 'A'):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7mERE3GIIC8/S_15zHmWKxI/AAAAAAAAAA8/YrLUp0MKYUY/s1600/arabicAlphabet1.gif

If there was an Alif in there, there would be no line above the 'meem'. It would have been written alongside the rest of the letters in "Rahman" and looked like this:

lalib
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HeWhoNeverWas wrote:Arabic

HeWhoNeverWas wrote:

Arabic is my first language.

The 'alif' you refer to is a an enunciation tool called a "hamza", sorta like the line above the e in the word 'cliché' (albeit the é is a variant of the letter E). The position of this line changes how you read the word.

Here's the entire Arabic alphabet. "Alif" is the first letter (the equivalent of the letter 'A'):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7mERE3GIIC8/S_15zHmWKxI/AAAAAAAAAA8/YrLUp0MKYUY/s1600/arabicAlphabet1.gif

If there was an Alif in there, there would be no line above the 'meem'. It would have been written alongside the rest of the letters in "Rahman" and looked like this:

Arabic and English are both by first languages.

Sure, the letter alif is not always written in Al-Rahman, but as you know, it is pronounced. Similar to Al-Quran. There is an alif in the middle of the word, but it is rarely written. I don't know your religious persuasion, but if you happen to have a copy of the Quran at home, open it up and look at the beginning of each chapter, they use a little line to indicate the location of the alif in words such as Al rahman and Al Quran.

Btw, which country are you/your parents from? Mine are from Syria.