Beyond the Atheist / Theist dialectic

Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond the Atheist / Theist dialectic

This is my hypothesis:

The atheist / theist dialectic is irresolvable, as long as the word God represents different things to different people. We are currently operating in a semiotic sludge.

God is a 3 letter word: what does it represent? Answers below please...

 


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

yep, I think I see that. 

L = we might have been right on our own, but outcome certainly negative

J = we would have been right on our own, but outcome certainly negative 

Hence J is the worst. Gotcha.

Please continue...


Blake
atheistScience Freak
Posts: 991
Joined: 2010-02-19
User is offlineOffline
Optionsgeek wrote:yep, I

Optionsgeek wrote:

yep, I think I see that. 

L = we might have been right on our own, but outcome certainly negative

J = we would have been right on our own, but outcome certainly negative 

Hence J is the worst. Gotcha.

Please continue...

 

Yep.

 

So, in short, it's possible that believing/acting on false information can have a statistically better moral outcome if the agent providing that false information has the same (or compatible) moral axiom as us, is intelligent, and knows more than we do, but can never have a certainly better moral outcome regardless of how knowledgeable the agent is.  However, false information can have a certainly worse moral outcome.

The spectrum of results of relying on false information range from statistically better, at best, to certainly worse.

 

As I've mentioned, and bears repeating, that there is no case of false information that can be certainly better is very important.  Probability rules here.  If given a choice, if the false information is probably better, it would be better to go with it, if it's probably worse, it would be better not to, and to stick with what true information we have.

 

Now, let us very briefly examine religion in terms of those situations.

 

Which (which letter) situation represents an intelligent deity with the same moral axioms with access to all of the relevant information passing on that tailored* false information?

Which situation represents an intelligent deity with incompatible moral axioms with access to all of the relevant information passing on that tailored* false information?

Which situation represents a bunch of goat herders with compatible moral axioms with access to less information than we have passing on that tailored* false information?

Which situation represents a bunch of goat herders with incompatible moral axioms with access to less information than we have passing on that tailored* false information?

 

 

There's another situation I'll get to a bit later which isn't represented in these- I don't want to complicate this array.

*Tailored is very important, and I'll also address this later.


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
blake

1/ F

2/ L

3/ I

4/ O

Am i following?...


Blake
atheistScience Freak
Posts: 991
Joined: 2010-02-19
User is offlineOffline
Optionsgeek wrote:1/ F2/ L3/

Optionsgeek wrote:

1/ F

2/ L

3/ I

4/ O

Am i following?...

 

Yes.  Now, I need to digress briefly to note the most probable correct knowledge.

 

Our knowledge and observations are either correct at face value, or to some degree (any degree) influenced by internal or external forces and conditions to be biased or even outright fabricated.

 

Outright correct  vs.  Somewhat influenced (to any degree)

 

I want to make sure you follow that, because it's crucial to the next steps.


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

EDIT:

I agree, though i prefer to use the following language:

Observations can be accurate at face value despite internal forces or they can be inaccurate as a result of these internal and / or external forces. 

Accurate vs inaccurate. Both against constant backdrop of internal forces, and near constant backdrop of external forces. 

Sound good?

 


Blake
atheistScience Freak
Posts: 991
Joined: 2010-02-19
User is offlineOffline
Optionsgeek wrote:EDIT:I

Optionsgeek wrote:

EDIT:

I agree, though i prefer to use the following language:

Observations can be accurate at face value despite internal forces or they can be inaccurate as a result of these internal and / or external forces. 

Accurate vs inaccurate. Both against constant backdrop of internal forces, and near constant backdrop of external forces. 

Sound good?

 

Not exactly, but almost... I'm talking about the (flawed) idea that we just have perfect observations in one form or another, and there aren't any forces affecting them to perhaps make them less correct- v.s. the idea that there are forces that can and often do affect our observations, be they internal or external, generally to the end of inaccuracy (unless they were to cancel each other out- which is more or less the same as the former)

 

My point is that, if we don't have to worry about such forces affecting our observations and making them inaccurate, we're going to be right anyway.

If we do, in order to achieve the most probably correct knowledge, we have to use scientific methodology to correct for those biases in our observations.

In such a case as that wouldn't work, such as the intelligent meddling and distortion of our perceptions, we have no objective way to correct for it and knowledge is fully inaccessible anyway, so it makes no difference.

 

The bottom line is that scientific methodology can't hurt, but it certainly can help give us the most probably correct information regardless of (without knowledge of) the circumstance.

That is, logic necessitates the scientific method as delivering us the most probably correct information possible.


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

 Sounds good to me... a nice summary of the optimum approach to attaining objective truths...

Go on...


Blake
atheistScience Freak
Posts: 991
Joined: 2010-02-19
User is offlineOffline
So, science is the metric of

So, science is the metric of most likely valid information, regardless of any other factors.

But is it morally necessary to subscribe to the truth of science?

 

Lets get back to the four cases of false information I mentioned earlier (which should here be understood with reference to those cases wherein religion conflicts with science- that is not to say religion is always in conflict with science, but wherein it is a choice must be made):

 

 

F. An intelligent deity with the same moral axioms with access to all of the relevant information passing on that tailored* false information.

---We agreed that this false information is statistically more morally optimal.

L. An intelligent deity with incompatible moral axioms with access to all of the relevant information passing on that tailored* false information.

---We agreed that this false information is statistically much worse with regards to moral optimization.

 

As such:

With regards to a deity which possesses more information, the crucial determinant as to whether it is moral to act on the tailored* information given to us by the deity is the character of the deity.  If the moral axioms it acts on are the same as ours the answer is quite the opposite to the case of those axioms being incompatible with our own.

 

 

I.  A bunch of goat herders with compatible moral axioms with access to less information than we have passing on that tailored* false information.

O. A bunch of goat herders with incompatible moral axioms with access to less information than we have passing on that tailored* false information.

---We agreed that these cases of false information are both statistically worse with regards to moral optimization.

 

As such:

"Checkmate goat herders". 

It is never, under any moral axiom, moral to believe the false information given to us by relatively ignorant goat herders over the most probably correct knowledge.  Under any moral axiom, that is, such a belief is an immoral action. 

Where science is completely lacking, the goat herders' guesses are as good as any-- but where there is even the tiniest inclination of scientific knowledge to the contrary, it is morally necessary to act as if that were truth, as opposed to the information handed to us by even the most noble of goat herders.

 

 

 

Accepting tailored*
false Information from:

More Knowledgeable DeityIgnorant Goat herders

Same moral axiom

 

 Moral Immoral

Incompatible axiom

 

 Immoral Immoral

 

 

Indeed, the question of where this false information came from (wherein religion does contradict science) is of utmost importance in determining whether subscription to the religion, as a meme, is objectively immoral or not where it encourages belief in its information over that of science.

 

And how do we determine where the information most likely came from?  We don't trust the source- we do this objectively, through science, as the source of all most probable information.

 

The question, then, comes down to this:

 

Given the two options of deity or goat herders (independent of the morality of said deity or goat herders), what is more probable?

 

 

(Again, there's another situation/option I'll get to a bit later which isn't represented in these- I don't want to complicate this array.  And again *Tailored is very important, and I'll also address this later.)

 


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

God is objectively unknowable so we are CERTAINLY, for our purposes here, dealing with goatherders - there is no PROBABLE about it. 

Please continue...

PS

1/ On the ignorance of the goat herders, I suggest you read Jared Diamond's book, 'Guns, Germs and Steel': while I see what you are trying to say, I tend to see 'progress' as the result of a symbiotic relationship between an organism and its environment. I get your point, but the word ignorant is too strong: i really recommend Guns, Germs and Steel - it puts an end to any feelings of intellectual or racial superiority that we as humans seem to frequently manifest...

2/ I'm not sure 'scientific knowledge' should quite be equated with 'morality'. I prefer to think in terms of optimizing decision making vis a vis a given goal, and making judgements, both ex ante and ex post, about the accuracy of such decision making. 


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

double post...


Blake
atheistScience Freak
Posts: 991
Joined: 2010-02-19
User is offlineOffline
Optionsgeek wrote:God is

Optionsgeek wrote:

God is objectively unknowable so we are CERTAINLY, for our purposes here, dealing with goatherders - there is no PROBABLE about it.

 

Only opinions are objectively unknowable, and that's because they have no objective truth value.  Which is more entertaining, Star Wars or Star Trek?  It's an opinion.  These aren't real, tangible things- objective entertainment value- it's relative.  We can say, though, objectively that Star Wars is more entertaining to a certain person.

The deity postulated is not an opinion.

Either it is logically incoherent or contradictory, in which case it certainly does not exist, or it is logically coherent and consistent in which case it may be unknown, but can be evaluated in regards to probability.

 

As it turns out, deities are logically inconsistent, so you're right on that point- but they aren't unknowable.  They're known- they're just false.

 

Optionsgeek wrote:
2/ I'm not sure 'scientific knowledge' should quite be equated with 'morality'. I prefer to think in terms of optimizing decision making vis a vis a given goal, and making judgements, both ex ante and ex post, about the accuracy of such decision making.

 

I'm not equating scientific knowledge with morality- one can elect to be amoral and also accept science.  It isn't prescriptive in that regard.  What I am doing is demonstrating that, when the option is available, choosing scientific knowledge is essential to morality.

That is, science is not morality- but science is required for morality, and the rejection of science in favor of something less probable is immoral.  The acceptance of science itself does not morality make, however- there's a bit more to it.

 

 

Back to the point:

Rather than a deity, lets say we have alien beings from the planet Zorg- far more informed than ourselves.  What is the probability that the false information of religion has been tailored* by such ancient astronauts?

 

Small, of course- and that is not even taking into account that, even given that this could be the case, we have no idea of their moral axioms; so even if we were certain that this was the origin of that information, neither could we trust it nor rely on it.

Regardless of any other factors it is a moral obligation to treat the information in science as true, and religion as false (wherein they contradict), and wherein they don't and science is lacking, a roll of the dice is as reliable as any theology under the intelligent influence assumption.

 

 

Optionsgeek wrote:

1/ On the ignorance of the goat herders [...] Jared Diamond [...] organism and its environment.

I was getting to the other case, which is more complex, and I will explain why it doesn't apply.

 

And finally:

Societies themselves have mass intelligences and memories expressed through memetic evolution.  Like ant colonies which possess an awareness and intelligence beyond that of any single ant.  The information this system has access to is broad, but the intelligence itself is very low- expressed very slowly over time. 

These kinds of systems are tailored* at a glacial pace, and do not represent the modern situations we may rely on the information for.

 

*And so I get to Tailored:

  

Remember when, much earlier, the false information said the one box had a 0% chance instead of a 0.00001% chance,  and that the other had a 100% chance instead of a 99.99999% chance?

Well, that information was carefully tailored to the situation.

What if we add another box which the intelligence didn't anticipate?

 

Box #3 has a 99.99999999999% chance of containing a person.  And still, you must choose one to be spared.

 

Relying on the correct information, you would naturally choose the box with the 99.99999999999% chance of containing the person.

Relying on the false information- which at one point was not harmful- you would now choose the box with the 99.99999% chance of containing a person which you falsely believe to have a 100% chance; again, sabotage of your moral choice.

 

This is how crucial it is that any false information be tailored to the situation we are in.

 

Even the incredibly intelligent ancient astronauts, if they did provide this information, could not have precisely predicted every possible situation it would be used in, and in fact there will inevitably be possible situations contingent on any one piece of information which are impossible to tailor that single piece of information for to turn out morally optimal in each situation (I would even refer you to Gödel's incompleteness theorems here).

An only marginally intelligent social structure guided by bumbling memetic evolution of hundreds of years could not *possibly* hope to tailor its false information for optimal morality even if it wanted to- and that's where we get to the most important reason that entities of amalgamated social memes are not moral; they have no moral drive.

These intelligences, as futile as they are, are only and exclusively self interested- they have no interest in the welfare of other societies, or even of the people within them provided they maximize their own utility.  These things do not share our moral axioms because they have no moral axioms- they are raw evolutionary potential, pure amoral utility.

 

Only a completely amoral person who prides these memes out of overwhelming hedonistic hubris- in fact who identifies as an extension of them (as an ant is little more than an extension of the hive)- over all else, and who lived in an unchanging society where the memetic system had ample time to catch up and tailor itself to the available situations could be well advised to believe and act upon this false information even some of the time; not for any moral reason, but out of self interest for the meme that has become his or her identity.


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

 DP


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

 Yep, I agree. Religion as a prescriptive system of ethics for both individuals and society is a fail. 

Go on...


Blake
atheistScience Freak
Posts: 991
Joined: 2010-02-19
User is offlineOffline
Optionsgeek wrote: Yep, I

Optionsgeek wrote:

 Yep, I agree. Religion as a prescriptive system of ethics for both individuals and society is a fail. 

Go on...

 

I've been talking about descriptive systems.  The description in religion is wrong, and thereby immoral- no matter what axioms we are working from (secular or religious in origin), believing the descriptive account by religion of the world is markedly less conducive to carrying out those axioms.

Religious descriptivism distorts moral actions where they occur, and is in itself immoral as a belief for any moral person to hold.

 

I haven't gotten to religious prescriptivism yet.


Optionsgeek
Theist
Posts: 67
Joined: 2010-12-14
User is offlineOffline
Blake

Ah, OK, I read you.

Can I ask what, to you, Christianity describes?

 


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Posts: 7587
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Optionsgeek wrote:This is my

Optionsgeek wrote:

This is my hypothesis:

The atheist / theist dialectic is irresolvable, as long as the word God represents different things to different people. We are currently operating in a semiotic sludge.

God is a 3 letter word: what does it represent? Answers below please...

 

 

Yes God means different things to different people, but the discussion is resolvable as soon as we know what God means to the theist engaged in the discussion.  I can give good reason that you shouldn't hold the belief in god you hold as soon as the definition is presented (define God how you choose).  What I find interesting, and something that leads us down the path of atheism is that no two gods are alike.  Why?  Ask 50 Christians leaving Church about their God and you'll get a little something different from each one.  Are they each believing in their own version of God?  I believe they are.  This helps us realize that God doesn't have the power to convey to us who he/she really is, making us realize that most peoples version of God is impossible.

 


redneF
atheistRational VIP!
redneF's picture
Posts: 1970
Joined: 2011-01-04
User is offlineOffline
Here are a few scientific

Here are a few scientific objective truths, from which theists cannot escape.

1- Humans are fallable

2- Rumours are persistent, whether they are based in fact, or only imagination.

3- All accounts of any gods, are rumours that were created and perpetuated by humans.

 

The End

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris