Simple question to theists

NoMoreCrazyPeople
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Simple question to theists

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

 

  Please, give me your best reason, what exact logic have you used that has led you to represent a certain religion and not another.   Why are you Christian and not Hindu, or Muslim, or a Scientologist for that matter, are you as versed in the religions you haven't chosen to represent as you are in the one you have chosen to represent?

 


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Because it is what I was

Because it is what I was raised with, it's a family tradition.

Well I doubt you will get a better answer out of a theist.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:Because it is

robj101 wrote:

Because it is what I was raised with, it's a family tradition.

Well I doubt you will get a better answer out of a theist.

 

I'm expecting the "personal experience" argument coupled with some pseudo-philosophy as to why God is absolutely necessary for the existence of the galaxy or something.

"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."

"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"

"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"


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 D33PPURPLE wrote:coupled

 

D33PPURPLE wrote:

coupled with some pseudo-philosophy as to why God is absolutely necessary for the existence of the galaxy or something.

  Probably, as if this would have anything to do with the question.  I doubt I will get any good reasons atall for believing in there particular religion, and not another.  I'll never understand this, theists please enlighten me of how you justify to yourselves that only your religion is true and not others.  Forget arguments for god, I want to hear some good logical arguments for why your particular religion is true, and not others. 

 

 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote: 

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

  Probably, as if this would have anything to do with the question.  I doubt I will get any good reasons atall for believing in there particular religion, and not another.  I'll never understand this, theists please enlighten me of how you justify to yourselves that only your religion is true and not others.  Forget arguments for god, I want to hear some good logical arguments for why your particular religion is true, and not others. 


Well, uhm, because they grow up into the mold of a religion? No religion is as good as the one you suck in with mother's milk. People don't try various religions and then decide for one with all the necessary zeal. People don't shop for beliefs, unless they belong to New Age. At most, people get converted when they're emotionally unstable and in some trouble.

Which begs the question, how do they expect to give a chance to all the people who did not grow up in families of their only true religion. Other people have only very low chance to get converted and get saved according to the only true way. If you won't grow up in it, you likely won't get into it. It's not like God made us with a fair chance of recognizing the only true religion and heading to it like a moth to lamp.

All the "my religion is the best because..." arguments might be basically justifications of "I grew up in that."

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:If

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

 

  Please, give me your best reason, what exact logic have you used that has led you to represent a certain religion and not another.   Why are you Christian and not Hindu, or Muslim, or a Scientologist for that matter, are you as versed in the religions you haven't chosen to represent as you are in the one you have chosen to represent?

 

I am a Christian because (1) when I pray to my God he answers. I see results. I never experienced this when I tried praying to Allah, or to the god of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. The results I recieved were by way of healing, and financial breakthrough, as well as conditions at work. (2) I accept the NT documents because unlike the Quaran for example, the extant copies of the NT are close enough to the time of which they speak to show that the originals were contemporary with the events they speak about; the manuscripts are numerous enough and old enough to ensure that no one could change all and corrupt the text beyond restoration to the original; the candor of the writers: they openly admit the mistakes even when they look rediculous - myths don't usually put the hero or the author in a bad fix; there is no other reasonable explanation for the origin of the Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus: (a) there isn't enough time between the writing of the NT and the original events for myths to be accepted universally over the core facts, (b) Jesus death, burial, post-mortem appearence, and the origin of the Christian belief cannot be explained apart from the resurrection..I know of no parallels to this situation in any other religion.


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:If

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

 

  Please, give me your best reason, what exact logic have you used that has led you to represent a certain religion and not another.   Why are you Christian and not Hindu, or Muslim, or a Scientologist for that matter, are you as versed in the religions you haven't chosen to represent as you are in the one you have chosen to represent?

 

Because Christianity is the correct religion.


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jmm wrote:NoMoreCrazyPeople

jmm wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

 

  Please, give me your best reason, what exact logic have you used that has led you to represent a certain religion and not another.   Why are you Christian and not Hindu, or Muslim, or a Scientologist for that matter, are you as versed in the religions you haven't chosen to represent as you are in the one you have chosen to represent?

 

Because Christianity is the correct religion.

whatever that means Smiling

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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daley wrote:I am a Christian

daley wrote:

I am a Christian because (1) when I pray to my God he answers. I see results. I never experienced this when I tried praying to Allah, or to the god of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. The results I recieved were by way of healing, and financial breakthrough, as well as conditions at work.

Did you try the other gods? How many comparisons did you make before determining that ONLY prayers to your god were answered? How do you know it wasn't pure chance? I have had financial breakthroughs, healing and improved working conditions without prayer.

I really want to play poker with you. Name the stake, date and place. I will pray to the spaghetti monster when I am ahead and you can pray to your god whenever you are behind and we will see which prayers are answered more often. We can even record it so you will have tangible proof. If God can do those things certainly he wouldn't mind changing chance with a few cards. 

daley wrote:

(2) I accept the NT documents because unlike the Quaran for example, the extant copies of the NT are close enough to the time of which they speak to show that the originals were contemporary with the events they speak about; the manuscripts are numerous enough and old enough to ensure that no one could change all and corrupt the text beyond restoration to the original; the candor of the writers: they openly admit the mistakes even when they look rediculous - myths don't usually put the hero or the author in a bad fix; there is no other reasonable explanation for the origin of the Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus: (a) there isn't enough time between the writing of the NT and the original events for myths to be accepted universally over the core facts, (b) Jesus death, burial, post-mortem appearence, and the origin of the Christian belief cannot be explained apart from the resurrection..I know of no parallels to this situation in any other religion.

So the only reasonable explanation for people to believe x is that it is true? People believe things that are false all the time. People believe Jimmy Hoffa is buried in Giants stadium and that the moon landing was a hoax and a million other conspiracy theories. Using your logic all of those theories must be true. People continue to believe in psychics, voodoo, and palm reading even though two seconds of searching on the internet can show there is no evidence to support their beliefs. Go back to a time when people were illiterate and had no education and it is that much easier to get them to believe whatever you feel like making up. You also seem to completely ignore that Christianity was a very small religion until it was adopted by the Roman Empire. It wasn't a widely held belief right after Jesus. Even today, after centuries of being based out of the most expansionist empires in history and evangelism that I would argue is unparalleled by any other religion (have you ever heard of a Muslim or Jewish missionary?), Christianity is only believed by about a third of the worlds population. 

And by the way, what myth doesn't put the hero in a bad fix? All good drama puts the hero in a bad fix, through several trials and in the end salvation for the hero no matter what mistakes he/she made. Not that I am comparing the bible to good drama. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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daley wrote:I am a Christian

daley wrote:

I am a Christian because (1) when I pray to my God he answers. I see results. I never experienced this when I tried praying to Allah, or to the god of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. The results I recieved were by way of healing, and financial breakthrough, as well as conditions at work.

Please, do tell.  Can you give me some specifics as to what god did for you.  Also I was raised Jehovah's Witness, so what exactly do you mean by he didn't awnser you then, it's the same god.  It's vertually the exact same bible, they just change god to Jehovah and cross to stake, and a few little things.  Was he angry at you for praying to him through a false religion?   You do know how many people that aren't christians would say the exact same thing about their god, and the religion they represent, the only true one ofcourse.  My mom would certainly say only through the JW's can you have a true relationship god.  Can you give me one good reason to believe you and not her, I would bet she believes even more than you!   Also If I said to you that unicorns awnsered my prayers, would you believe me?  Simple questions... 

daley wrote:

(2) I accept the NT documents because unlike the Quaran for example, the extant copies of the NT are close enough to the time of which they speak to show that the originals were contemporary with the events they speak about; the manuscripts are numerous enough and old enough to ensure that no one could change all and corrupt the text beyond restoration to the original;

 

This is just utter bullocks.

 

daley wrote:

 

there is no other reasonable explanation for the origin of the Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus:

I don't doubt they believed in the resurection of Jesus, that has absoluetely nothing to do with whether he did or not.  The least reasonable thing to conclude would be that he actually miraculously resurected, given it is impossible.

daley wrote:

(a) there isn't enough time between the writing of the NT and the original events for myths to be accepted universally over the core facts, (b) Jesus death, burial, post-mortem appearence, and the origin of the Christian belief cannot be explained apart from the resurrection..I know of no parallels to this situation in any other religion.

Umm... What do you mean numbers, your religion grew so fast type thing argument.  What about Islam, it started hundreds of years later and is growing faster.   If you judge it on gusto alone you'd have to give it to the muslims, they take belief to another level.  Would you conclude the only thing that could reasonably explain the gusto in Islam and its fast growth is the truth of the story, the authenticity of muhammad as a prophet and the experiences of his followers? 


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daley wrote:I am a Christian

daley wrote:

I am a Christian because (1) when I pray to my God he answers. I see results. I never experienced this when I tried praying to Allah, or to the god of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. The results I recieved were by way of healing, and financial breakthrough, as well as conditions at work.

Care to explain why my Mormon friend says the exact same thing? On another note, because the nature God's interaction with humanity is unknown, any knowledge you supposedly glean from the Holy Spirit or the like is inherently noniformative, which means that the idea that God is responding to your prayer is the result of accomodationism.

Here is a link that explains what I just said: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=9984#more-9984

 

daley wrote:

(2) I accept the NT documents because unlike the Quaran for example, the extant copies of the NT are close enough to the time of which they speak to show that the originals were contemporary with the events they speak about; the manuscripts are numerous enough and old enough to ensure that no one could change all and corrupt the text beyond restoration to the original; the candor of the writers: they openly admit the mistakes even when they look rediculous - myths don't usually put the hero or the author in a bad fix; there is no other reasonable explanation for the origin of the Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus: (a) there isn't enough time between the writing of the NT and the original events for myths to be accepted universally over the core facts, (b) Jesus death, burial, post-mortem appearence, and the origin of the Christian belief cannot be explained apart from the resurrection..I know of no parallels to this situation in any other religion.

 

1. You are wrong about the time-frame. Most were written quite a while after Jesus walked the earth.

2. People admitting to their mistakes is hardly indicative of a deity existing, and the whole purpose of the Jesus Myth is to say that Jesus was a human, "Just like you!" So it makes sense to place the hero in a bad position, or else anyone could object that Jesus was aided to God to the extent that no other human being would.

3. According to the Bible, even when Jesus was alive, many of the people who followed him believed he was John the Baptist back from the dead, even when Jesus never claimed such a thing. If a myth like that could develop at the time that Jesus was alive, then it could certainly develop after Jesus died, especially in extremely superstitious times when cults that challenged traditional religions were becoming popular. The argument ignores a number of societal & political factors, including that a similar religion that revolved around a man who had been born of a rock was also popular at the time with Roman Soldiers.

4. The whole "I saw Jesus back from the dead!" is no different from Catholics claiming their Pancake that looks like Jesus has healing powers. I mean, if people are willing to believe it, then it must be true, right?! People are more than willing to believe in the irrational, I'm afraid.

 

"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."

"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"

"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"


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daley wrote: I am a

daley wrote:

 

I am a Christian because (1) when I pray to my God he answers. I see results.

So what kind of prayers are being answered? I do things and see results, you say you simply pray and things "happen" without your own hand being involved?

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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jmm wrote:NoMoreCrazyPeople

jmm wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

 

  Please, give me your best reason, what exact logic have you used that has led you to represent a certain religion and not another.   Why are you Christian and not Hindu, or Muslim, or a Scientologist for that matter, are you as versed in the religions you haven't chosen to represent as you are in the one you have chosen to represent?

 

Because Christianity is the correct religion.

Typical, why did you even bother.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:If

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

 

  Please, give me your best reason, what exact logic have you used that has led you to represent a certain religion and not another.   Why are you Christian and not Hindu, or Muslim, or a Scientologist for that matter, are you as versed in the religions you haven't chosen to represent as you are in the one you have chosen to represent?

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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While my experience with

While my experience with polytheism is limited (most narrowly to the classical European pantheons), my observations of these religions causes me to reject them for one of several reasons.  They are either:
   
    1.   obviously based on legend as opposed to theology.  This would appear to be the case with the Norse religions.  It seems obvious to me that Wotan (or Odin) was a real person, a legendary chieftain of great renown.  Likewise would seem to be the case with Thor, who was most probably, a real, live warrior hero of skill whose accomplishements grew through time until they became as of mythic proportions.  Or...

    2.  too busy bickering with each other to be concerned with the well being of humankind.  The myths of Greece and Rome are a long tale of the interaction betwewen god and man, very often with no clear indication of which was the "good guy" and which was the villain.  Or...

    3.  are demons masquerading in the guise of gods, eager to further the wishes of their adherents.  In return, these "gods" exacted a terrible price, most notably Baal, Moloch, Dagon who demanded of their worshippers the most vile of sacrifices, that of human life.

The animism of these ancient cultures, by positing that the divine was immanent in created things, hindered the growth of science by making the idea of physical laws foreign.  Christianity, reposing the Divine in one God, who tencends the world, avoids pantheisim and allows Christians to view the universe as a realm of order and predictability. 

Islam, meanwhile, is simply the Christian heresy of Nestorianism taken to its logical conclusion.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote:While my

totus_tuus wrote:

While my experience with polytheism is limited (most narrowly to the classical European pantheons), my observations of these religions causes me to reject them for one of several reasons.  They are either:
   
    1.   obviously based on legend as opposed to theology.  This would appear to be the case with the Norse religions.  It seems obvious to me that Wotan (or Odin) was a real person, a legendary chieftain of great renown.  Likewise would seem to be the case with Thor, who was most probably, a real, live warrior hero of skill whose accomplishements grew through time until they became as of mythic proportions.  Or...

    2.  too busy bickering with each other to be concerned with the well being of humankind.  The myths of Greece and Rome are a long tale of the interaction betwewen god and man, very often with no clear indication of which was the "good guy" and which was the villain.  Or...

    3.  are demons masquerading in the guise of gods, eager to further the wishes of their adherents.  In return, these "gods" exacted a terrible price, most notably Baal, Moloch, Dagon who demanded of their worshippers the most vile of sacrifices, that of human life.

The animism of these ancient cultures, by positing that the divine was immanent in created things, hindered the growth of science by making the idea of physical laws foreign.  Christianity, reposing the Divine in one God, who tencends the world, avoids pantheisim and allows Christians to view the universe as a realm of order and predictability. 

Islam, meanwhile, is simply the Christian heresy of Nestorianism taken to its logical conclusion.

Hi TT. welcome back.

What separates theology from Christian legend besides you're being a fan of this particular god?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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totus_tuus wrote:While my

totus_tuus wrote:

While my experience with polytheism is limited (most narrowly to the classical European pantheons), my observations of these religions causes me to reject them for one of several reasons.  They are either:
   
    1.   obviously based on legend as opposed to theology.  This would appear to be the case with the Norse religions.  It seems obvious to me that Wotan (or Odin) was a real person, a legendary chieftain of great renown.  Likewise would seem to be the case with Thor, who was most probably, a real, live warrior hero of skill whose accomplishements grew through time until they became as of mythic proportions.  Or...

And the many stories in the Old Testament don't fit this category? So a man fitting all of the Earth's animals into an ark and it raining for forty days and forty nights is not part of legend? Or the story of Samson, that is not legend? Oh please.

totus_tuus wrote:

    2.  too busy bickering with each other to be concerned with the well being of humankind.  The myths of Greece and Rome are a long tale of the interaction betwewen god and man, very often with no clear indication of which was the "good guy" and which was the villain.  Or...

You misunderstand Greek and Roman mythology. What you don't comprehend is that although the gods certainly bickered with each other, they were believed to aid humans in times of peril. There are numerous myths that illustrate the gods helping out humans, and there were many stories of miracles that proved the benevolence of the gods (sound familiar?) that we know about from skeptics disputing the legitimacy of such claims. Furthermore, the Greek gods did not operate under the Christian system of morality, and the reason why you can't tell which is the hero and villain is because you misunderstand the way the Greeks understood the gods. They weren't the ultimate law givers, but the ultimate expression of humanity, full with vices, flaws, and noble properties. None of that disproves their existence or provides an adequate reason to reject them. That's a "I don't like that version of God, so I'll choose something that fits my fancy" argument.

totus_tuus wrote:

    3.  are demons masquerading in the guise of gods, eager to further the wishes of their adherents.  In return, these "gods" exacted a terrible price, most notably Baal, Moloch, Dagon who demanded of their worshippers the most vile of sacrifices, that of human life.

 

Ah yes, these "demons" have been recorded since the Middle Ages, once the Church began to try to rid itself of any and all "pagan" gods. Tell me, do you believe in that Demon that looks like a tarantula and does its evil deeds by teaching humans about philosophy? Because that is but one of the many recorded demons that walked the Earth in those Dark Ages.

 

totus_tuus wrote:

The animism of these ancient cultures, by positing that the divine was immanent in created things, hindered the growth of science by making the idea of physical laws foreign.  Christianity, reposing the Divine in one God, who tencends the world, avoids pantheisim and allows Christians to view the universe as a realm of order and predictability.

Yes, your God "transcends" this world, but is more than happy to be the explanation for rainbows, and who, very scientifically, created plants before the Sun. Excellent.

 

totus_tuus wrote:

Islam, meanwhile, is simply the Christian heresy of Nestorianism taken to its logical conclusion.

 

Christianity is simply the Judaic heresy of a false prophet taken to its logical conclusion.

 

"The Chaplain had mastered, in a moment of divine intuition, the handy technique of protective rationalization and he was exhilarated by his discovery. It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. Just no Character."

"He...had gone down in flames...on the seventh day, while God was resting"

"You have no respect for excessive authority or obsolete traditions. You should be taken outside and shot!"


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 totus_tuus wrote:While my

 

totus_tuus wrote:

While my experience with polytheism is limited (most narrowly to the classical European pantheons), my observations of these religions causes me to reject them for one of several reasons.  They are either:
   
    1.   obviously based on legend as opposed to theology. 

Theology:

"the field of study and analysis that treats of god and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.  A particular form, system, branch, or course of this study"      Theolgy refers to the quest to find truth about god, the analisis and study of god.  From my understanding this would mean a non-bios study, a personal quest into many hypothesis to find ultimate truth.  You are saying Chrstianity is based on theology and not legend, and other religions aren't.  What exactly does that mean?  That christianity is based on a bunch of people's unbios quest for god, their studies and findings?  That doesn't seem right.  Christianity is based on legend, embelished stories told over generations.  Usually when refering to theolgy people mean the study of a certain religion/s.  In this case  Theology = The study of legend.       Can you give me some examples that would make the legends of Christianity any more truthfull than the legends of other religions.       
totus_tuus wrote:

    2.  too busy bickering with each other to be concerned with the well being of humankind.  The myths of Greece and Rome are a long tale of the interaction betwewen god and man, very often with no clear indication of which was the "good guy" and which was the villain. 

 The bible is literally filled with examples of how their is no clear indication of whether the diety himself is a good guy or a villian, he seems to be both leaning towards villain, not to mind the rest of the characters in the myth.  Satan as pictured in the bible is a trickster at best.  Someone who doesn't like god's tyrannical ways and messes around with him and his creation.  He doesn't even kill anyone in the bible except for one time when Yahweh dared him to.  Yahweh does the real nasty work in the legend, I mean nasty, evil, discusting work.  How about the multiple "good guys" refered to in the bible who were complete doushbags.  Lot was a sicko, Abraham was completely insane, Moses, I mean it goes on and on.  These men are depicted as gods good guys, and are such obvious immoral pricks. 

totus_tuus wrote:

    3.  are demons masquerading in the guise of gods, eager to further the wishes of their adherents.  In return, these "gods" exacted a terrible price, most notably Baal, Moloch, Dagon who demanded of their worshippers the most vile of sacrifices, that of human life.

  Wait you are christian right?  Your god loves human and animal sacrifice, he especially so loves the smell of burning flesh, so if you are to sacrifice someone to your god, make sure you burn him so as to please Yahweh.

How exaclty are you againsts human sacrifice?  Is it only ok when the sacrifice is for Yahweh, because he is the only true god from your perspective, others do not have the right therefore it is "vile". 

 

  I see in your reply no good reasons at all for believing in your particular religion, and not another.   Reasons this poor could be made for any religion.


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JESUS

I think you misunderstand my position; I never said you can't have healing and financial breakthroughs lewithout God, but that doesn't minimize the fact that sometimes he is responsible for such results. As to how many gods did I try, (1) Allah of Islam is not a Trinity and therefore not the Christian God, (2) the same is trye of the Jehovah of the JWs, and (3) the god of the Mormons is just one in a chain of gods, who has a father who created him. He isn't the Eternal God without beginning nor end. So you can say that previous to trying the Lord Jesus, I tried 3 others. Now, while I was trying these other gods, the Witnesses were teaching that Jehovah does not heal, for miracles of that sort had come to an end when the apostles died in the first century CE and miracles are no longer art of Chrisitanity; so I was actually going against what they were trying to teach me! Any JW who gets miraculous healing would have to question why his WT doesn't teach that it is possible. All the gifts of the holy spirit are done, according to WT theology; so I was raying for something Jehovah could not do! As for the Mormon and Islam, they usually will tell you shady stories about things that could simply have been chance. This was not what I experienced when I prayed to Jesus and I want to give you some specifics.

(1) I tested positive for HIV, and every time I prayed to the other gods I'd go back and get tested again, but to no avail. I prayed to Jesus one single time to remove this virus, and when I went back to the doctor, they couldn't find it in my system. Now, I challenge you to find one person with AIDS, tell them to pray to the sphaghetti monster, and see if they get the same results. I personally know a woman who goes to my church, and she had the same experience before I did; only that she had full-blown AIDS.

(2) I owed the bank $8050 for a credit card debt that had accumulated lots of interest. No matter how hard I tried, my payments were not enough to keep it down. I wasn't earning enough. When I prayed to Jesus, the very next day I was walking over to my aunt's house, and decided to take a so-called shot-cut where I never used to go because of the dogs that prowl the area, but somehow, I was so carefree that day that I decided "what the heck!" and went through it. It was very bushy, but to my surprize, I fround a brwon envelope laying on the groung in the middle of the pathway with exactly $8050 in it. I looked all around but saw no one who could have dropped it there. If someone else were telling me this I wouldn't want to believe it, but it did happen to me. Now you tell me, that that was just a coincidence!

(3) I started work as just a gas attendant, and in less than one month of working I heard about a vacancy for a supervisor position. Many were working htere years before I was; so I never approached anyone about the position. I made a simple pray to Jesus to help me move up the ladder, and two days later management called me into a meeting and offered me the position. There were others more academically qualified, etc. I tried praying to other gods in the ast about similar circumstances but got no answers. And even when I thought I did, the answers came a long time after, and were so vauge in comparison to what I was asking for that it tool lots of rationalization and twisting to make it fit the prayer.

(4) I prayed to Jesus and asked him for a pair of Timberlands I saw in a store for $300, but couldn't afford them. I never told anyone about them. Yet, just a few hours later, a friend whom I hadn't seen in two years called me and told me that he was coming back to the island that day and to come see him at the apartment where he would be staying. When I went over the night, he gave me a present: the same exact kind of Timberlands! How do I explain that? I wasn't even into Timberlands when I used to hang out with him. So how could he have known?

 

Now, I'm not saying that everyone who prayers will get an asnwer. I don't know why either. But I do know this. I was answered. Also, I have a cell phone. And just because I choose not to answer when John calls, doesn't mean that Peter doesn't hear me answer his calls. I have choice. So does God. Just because he doesn't answer some people, doesn't mean he doesn't answer others. If he does choose to answer someone who belongs to another religion, he must have a reason for making that exception. The point is, God is real and he answers prayer!

As for your silly challenge, cause I think it is quite silly, as I speak I have the cold. Just a cold. But I do know that without taking any meds, I can pray for healing in Jesus' name, and this cold will flee from me right now! No tricks, no gimmicks. Can you say the same for your spaghetti monster? Yes, there are many fakes out there. And someitmes people aren't heal for lack of faith. But, sometimes, it is the real maccoy!

 

Now, for the second part of your rebuttle. You totally didn't get the point. The point is not that Christianity is true because many people believe it. Please examine the nature of the claim made by Christians and that made by Islam. The Quaran itself says that Muhammed did no miracles; also, when Islam started, it was merely continuing some doctrines about what goes on in the spirit realm (God's ID) and certain aspects of moral behaviour (dress, speech, etc). But the Christian claim is of a more concrete and physical nature. We have people claiming that a man came back from the dead, and claiming that hundred of witnesses are still alive who saw him! (1 Coirinthians 15). Now you tell me how do you convince a large number of people to believe that if the witnesses never actually saw him? What's your hypothesis? That they had a crowd of 250 lying witnesses who fabricated the story? Islam at its very beginning didn't make the kind of tremendous claims that require great proof for people to accept. Mohammed simply claimed that an angel came to him and told him xyz, in the privacy of the place where he was. He didn't claim that this thing happend in the eyes of many witnesses.

Also, myths don't usually expose the sins of the authors. I challenge you to quote one myth from another religious text where the author himself admits his sins. Can you dod it?

My argument is not that myths take long to develop, but that no myth can unanimously replace the historical core of what really happend in a short period of time. Miraculous stories about Mohammed were not generally accepted by Muslims till long after he died. But if you go back trough the writings of the early fathers, there is no non-miraculous story of Jesus' life. It has been this way from the beginning. The myth theory has two layers: a non-miraculous Jesus who did not raise the dead, heal the sick, etc; and the Mythical Jesus of the gospels. Problem is, no first-layer has ever been discovered: everything we have of Jesus from history presents him as the Bible does!

Here's a quote from The Bible: God's Word of Man's

"Hence, history and archaeology illustrate, and to some extent confirm, the historical elements of the Greek Scriptures. But, again, the strongest proof of the truth of these writings is in the books themselves. When you read them, they do not sound like myths. They have the ring of truth.

 

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For one thing, they are very frank. Think of what is recorded about Peter. His embarrassing failure to walk on water is detailed. Then, Jesus says to this highly respected apostle: “Get behind me, Satan!” (Matthew 14:28-31; 16:23) Moreover, after vigorously protesting that even if all the others abandoned Jesus, he would never do so, Peter fell asleep on his night watch and then denied his Lord three times.—Matthew 26:31-35, 37-45, 73-75.

 

But Peter is not the only one whose weaknesses are exposed. The frank record does not gloss over the apostles’ bickering about who was the greatest among them. (Matthew 18:1; Mark 9:34; Luke 22:24) Nor does it omit telling us that the mother of the apostles James and John asked Jesus to give her sons the most favored positions in his Kingdom. (Matthew 20:20-23) The “sharp burst of anger” between Barnabas and Paul is also faithfully documented.—Acts 15:36-39.

 

Noteworthy, too, is the fact that the book of Luke tells us that it was “the women, who had come with him out of Galilee,” who first learned about Jesus’ resurrection. This is a most unusual detail in the male-dominated society of the first century. Indeed, according to the record, what the women were saying “appeared as nonsense” to the apostles. (Luke 23:55–24:11) If the history in the Greek Scriptures is not true, it must have been invented. But why would anyone invent a story portraying such respected figures in such an unflattering light? These details would have been included only if they were true."

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Dear D33PPurpleYou asked:

Dear D33PPurple

You asked: Care to explain why my Mormon friend says the exact same thing?

Answer: Mormons claim that the "feeling" they get when they read the Bk of Mormon is proof that it is from God. I don't make arguments from "feeling" alone at all. The Book of Mormon claims the Nephite civilization covered the whole earth, and built cities all over it. Since not one trace of these civilizations has been discovered by archaeology, we can safely say the Mormons are wrong. They may say they get results when they pray, but can they give you a medical paper to prove that they had HIV before praying, and another to show they don't have it after the prayer? I doubt that! Not everyone who prays to Jesus will get answered. He is not obligated to answer everyone; but he did answer me. Believe what you want, I know what I experienced is real.

You again: You are wrong about the time-frame. Most were written quite a while after Jesus walked the earth.

Answer: Compare the NT to other writings of history:

 

 

AuthorDate WrittenEarliest CopyTime SpanCopies (extent)
 
Secular Manuscripts:
Herodotus (History)480 - 425 BC900 AD1,300 years8
Thucydides (History)460 - 400 BC900 AD1,300 years?
Aristotle (Philosopher)384 - 322 BC1,100 AD1,400 years5
Caesar (History)100 - 44 BC900 AD1,000 years10
Pliny (History)61 - 113 AD850 AD750 years7
Suetonius (Roman History)70 - 140 AD950 AD800 years?
Tacitus (Greek History)100 AD1,100 AD1,000 years20
 
Biblical Manuscripts: (note: these are individual manuscripts)
Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26)1st century50-60 ADco-existant (?) 
John Rylands (John)90 AD130 AD40 years 
Bodmer Papyrus II (John)90 AD150-200 AD60-110 years 
Chester Beatty Papyri (N.T.)1st century200 AD150 years 
Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels)1st century200 AD150 years 
Codex Vaticanus (Bible)1st century325-350 AD275-300 years 
Codex Sinaiticus (Bible)1st century350 AD300 years 
Codex Alexandrinus (Bible)1st century400 AD350 years 

.

(Total New Testament manuscripts = 5,300 Greek MSS, 10,000 Latin Vulgates, 9,300 others = 24,000 copies)
(Total MSS compiled prior to 600 AD = 230)

What one notices almost immediately from the table is that the New Testament manuscript copies which we possess today were compiled very early, a number of them hundreds of years before the earliest copy of a secular manuscript. This not only shows the importance the early Christians gave to preserving their scriptures, but the enormous wealth we have today for early Biblical documentation.

What is even more significant however, are the differences in time spans between the original manuscripts and the copies of both the biblical and secular manuscripts. It is well known in historical circles that the closer a document can be found to the event it describes the more credible it is. The time span for the biblical manuscript copies listed above are all within 350 years of the originals, some as early as 130-250 years and one even purporting to coexist with the original (i.e. the Magdalene Manuscript fragments of Matthew 26), while the time span for the secular manuscript copies are much greater, between 750-1,400 years! This indeed gives enormous authority to the biblical manuscript copies, as no other ancient piece of literature can make such close time comparisons.

Because of its importance to our discussion here a special note needs to be given to the Magdalene Manuscript mentioned above. Until two years ago, the oldest assumed manuscript which we possessed was the St. John papyrus (P52), housed in the John Rylands museum in Manchester, and dated at 120 AD (Time April 26, 1996, pg.Cool. Thus, it was thought that the earliest New Testament manuscript could not be corroborated by eyewitnesses to the events. That assumption has now changed, for three even older manuscripts, one each from the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke have now been dated earlier than the Johannine account. It is two of these three findings which I believe will completely change the entire focus of the critical debate on the authenticity of the Bible. Let me explain.

The Lukan papyrus, situated in a library in Paris has been dated to the late 1st century or early 2nd century, so it predates the John papyrus by 20-30 years (Time April 26, 1996, pg.Cool. But of more importance are the manuscript findings of Mark and Matthew! New research which has now been uncovered by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and is published in his newly released book on the subject, the Jesus Papyrus mentions a fragment from the book of Mark found among the Qumran scrolls (fragment 7Q5) showing that it was written sometime before 68 AD It is important to remember that Christ died in 33 AD, so this manuscript could have been written, at the latest, within 35 years of His death; possibly earlier, and thus during the time that the eyewitnesses to that event were still alive!

The most significant find, however, is a manuscript fragment from the book of Matthew (chapt.26) called the Magdalene Manuscript which has been analysed by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and also written up in his book The Jesus Papyrus. Using a sophisticated analysis of the handwriting of the fragment by employing a special state-of-the-art microscope, he differentiated between 20 separate micrometer layers of the papyrus, measuring the height and depth of the ink as well as the angle of the stylus used by the scribe. After this analysis Thiede was able to compare it with other papyri from that period; notably manuscripts found at Qumran (dated to 58 AD), another at Herculaneum (dated prior to 79 AD), a further one from the fortress of Masada (dated to between 73/74 AD), and finally a papyrus from the Egyptian town of Oxyrynchus. The Magdalene Manuscript fragments matches all four, and in fact is almost a twin to the papyrus found in Oxyrynchus, which bears the date of 65/66 AD Thiede concludes that these papyrus fragments of St. Matthew's Gospel were written no later than this date and probably earlier. That suggests that we either have a portion of the original gospel of Matthew, or an immediate copy which was written while Matthew and the other disciples and eyewitnesses to the events were still alive. This would be the oldest manuscript portion of our Bible in existence today, one which co-exists with the original writers!

What is of even more importance is what it says. The Matthew 26 fragment uses in its text nomina sacra (holy names) such as the diminutive "IS" for Jesus and "KE" for Kurie or Lord (The Times, Saturday, December 24, 1994). This is highly significant for our discussion today, because it suggests that the godhead of Jesus was recognised centuries before it was accepted as official church doctrine at the council of Nicea in 325 AD There is still ongoing discussion concerning the exact dating of this manuscript. However, if the dates prove to be correct then this document alone completely eradicates the criticism levelled against the gospel accounts (such as the "Jesus Seminar&quotEye-wink that the early disciples knew nothing about Christ's divinity, and that this concept was a later redaction imposed by the Christian community in the second century (AD).


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Dear D33PPurpleYou also

Dear D33PPurple

You also said: . People admitting to their mistakes is hardly indicative of a deity existing, and the whole purpose of the Jesus Myth is to say that Jesus was a human, "Just like you!" So it makes sense to place the hero in a bad position, or else anyone could object that Jesus was aided to God to the extent that no other human being would.

I never said that admitting your mistakes is proof of a diety existing, but it does prove the sincerity of the author/ the kind of person the writer is. That he/she is a faithful witness. Thus we have reason to trust him. A quote from The Bible: God's Word of Man's:

Noteworthy, too, is the fact that the book of Luke tells us that it was “the women, who had come with him out of Galilee,” who first learned about Jesus’ resurrection. This is a most unusual detail in the male-dominated society of the first century. Indeed, according to the record, what the women were saying “appeared as nonsense” to the apostles. (Luke 23:55–24:11) If the history in the Greek Scriptures is not true, it must have been invented. But why would anyone invent a story portraying such respected figures in such an unflattering light? These details would have been included only if they were true. But Peter is not the only one whose weaknesses are exposed. The frank record does not gloss over the apostles’ bickering about who was the greatest among them. (Matthew 18:1; Mark 9:34; Luke 22:24) Nor does it omit telling us that the mother of the apostles James and John asked Jesus to give her sons the most favored positions in his Kingdom. (Matthew 20:20-23) The “sharp burst of anger” between Barnabas and Paul is also faithfully documented.—Acts 15:36-39. For one thing, they are very frank. Think of what is recorded about Peter. His embarrassing failure to walk on water is detailed. Then, Jesus says to this highly respected apostle: “Get behind me, Satan!” (Matthew 14:28-31; 16:23) Moreover, after vigorously protesting that even if all the others abandoned Jesus, he would never do so, Peter fell asleep on his night watch and then denied his Lord three times.—Matthew 26:31-35, 37-45, 73-75.

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Hence, history and archaeology illustrate, and to some extent confirm, the historical elements of the Greek Scriptures. But, again, the strongest proof of the truth of these writings is in the books themselves. When you read them, they do not sound like myths. They have the ring of truth.

 

Now, you claim the whole purpose of the Jesus Myth is to cliam that jESUS was human. This theory has two layers: a human Jesus wh owas not divine, did no miracles, didn't rise from the dead, etc; and the Jesus of the gospels. Problem with that theory is that no-non miraculous story of Jesus has ever been found. There is no first-layer to your cake! The very beginning of the story of Jeus begins as the Bible says, with a divine person. The earliest writings of the church fathers, even the Jewish historian Josephus has a miraculous Jesus.

You go on to say:

3. According to the Bible, even when Jesus was alive, many of the people who followed him believed he was John the Baptist back from the dead, even when Jesus never claimed such a thing. If a myth like that could develop at the time that Jesus was alive, then it could certainly develop after Jesus died, especially in extremely superstitious times when cults that challenged traditional religions were becoming popular. The argument ignores a number of societal & political factors, including that a similar religion that revolved around a man who had been born of a rock was also popular at the time with Roman Soldiers.

Answer: This belief that Jesu was a reincarnation of John was not accepted by the majority over the hard historical facts of his life. Also, I'd like to see the actual quotes from the Roman writings about this man born from a rock. How well are the so-called parallels? The point is not that legends don't develop in ones life time. The point is that no legend can develop in your lifetime and be accepted by (1) your own family, (2) your closest disciples, (3) the majority of your followers at a time when the eyewitnesses were still around to refute the myth, and (4) survive the real historical account so that the the real history of what actually happened no longer exists, a complete replacement of myth over history! That is not possible! I challenge you to show me one case of that in hisotry!


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daley wrote:I think you

daley wrote:

I think you misunderstand my position; I never said you can't have healing and financial breakthroughs lewithout God, but that doesn't minimize the fact that sometimes he is responsible for such results. As to how many gods did I try, (1) Allah of Islam is not a Trinity and therefore not the Christian God, (2) the same is trye of the Jehovah of the JWs, and (3) the god of the Mormons is just one in a chain of gods, who has a father who created him. He isn't the Eternal God without beginning nor end. So you can say that previous to trying the Lord Jesus, I tried 3 others. Now, while I was trying these other gods, the Witnesses were teaching that Jehovah does not heal, for miracles of that sort had come to an end when the apostles died in the first century CE and miracles are no longer art of Chrisitanity; so I was actually going against what they were trying to teach me! Any JW who gets miraculous healing would have to question why his WT doesn't teach that it is possible. All the gifts of the holy spirit are done, according to WT theology; so I was raying for something Jehovah could not do! As for the Mormon and Islam, they usually will tell you shady stories about things that could simply have been chance. This was not what I experienced when I prayed to Jesus and I want to give you some specifics.

(1) I tested positive for HIV, and every time I prayed to the other gods I'd go back and get tested again, but to no avail. I prayed to Jesus one single time to remove this virus, and when I went back to the doctor, they couldn't find it in my system. Now, I challenge you to find one person with AIDS, tell them to pray to the sphaghetti monster, and see if they get the same results. I personally know a woman who goes to my church, and she had the same experience before I did; only that she had full-blown AIDS.

(2) I owed the bank $8050 for a credit card debt that had accumulated lots of interest. No matter how hard I tried, my payments were not enough to keep it down. I wasn't earning enough. When I prayed to Jesus, the very next day I was walking over to my aunt's house, and decided to take a so-called shot-cut where I never used to go because of the dogs that prowl the area, but somehow, I was so carefree that day that I decided "what the heck!" and went through it. It was very bushy, but to my surprize, I fround a brwon envelope laying on the groung in the middle of the pathway with exactly $8050 in it. I looked all around but saw no one who could have dropped it there. If someone else were telling me this I wouldn't want to believe it, but it did happen to me. Now you tell me, that that was just a coincidence!

(3) I started work as just a gas attendant, and in less than one month of working I heard about a vacancy for a supervisor position. Many were working htere years before I was; so I never approached anyone about the position. I made a simple pray to Jesus to help me move up the ladder, and two days later management called me into a meeting and offered me the position. There were others more academically qualified, etc. I tried praying to other gods in the ast about similar circumstances but got no answers. And even when I thought I did, the answers came a long time after, and were so vauge in comparison to what I was asking for that it tool lots of rationalization and twisting to make it fit the prayer.

(4) I prayed to Jesus and asked him for a pair of Timberlands I saw in a store for $300, but couldn't afford them. I never told anyone about them. Yet, just a few hours later, a friend whom I hadn't seen in two years called me and told me that he was coming back to the island that day and to come see him at the apartment where he would be staying. When I went over the night, he gave me a present: the same exact kind of Timberlands! How do I explain that? I wasn't even into Timberlands when I used to hang out with him. So how could he have known?

 

Now, I'm not saying that everyone who prayers will get an asnwer. I don't know why either. But I do know this. I was answered. Also, I have a cell phone. And just because I choose not to answer when John calls, doesn't mean that Peter doesn't hear me answer his calls. I have choice. So does God. Just because he doesn't answer some people, doesn't mean he doesn't answer others. If he does choose to answer someone who belongs to another religion, he must have a reason for making that exception. The point is, God is real and he answers prayer!

As for your silly challenge, cause I think it is quite silly, as I speak I have the cold. Just a cold. But I do know that without taking any meds, I can pray for healing in Jesus' name, and this cold will flee from me right now! No tricks, no gimmicks. Can you say the same for your spaghetti monster? Yes, there are many fakes out there. And someitmes people aren't heal for lack of faith. But, sometimes, it is the real maccoy!

Well if you get such great and immediate results you must really be something special to god so why can't you prove it? It should be fairly simple to make a public exhibition of one of these "miracles" happening. My challenge is silly? Well not if you can really do it. I witness people praying at the poker tables every weekend and doesn't usually work to well for them. So lets sit and prove one way or the other whether your prayers actually make a significant change to chance. If your god can make a brown envelope with $8050 magically appear out of nowhere making sure you hit a royal flush every hand should be childs play. Otherwise, all you have is a bunch of unverified stories and I'm not going to play the "well how did that happen" game when there is no evidence your stories are even true. Why don't you pray for one of those miracles to occur in public with some professional scientists around to verify it? 

 

Why don't you take the Randi $1 million dollar challenge? http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html Surely god would make sure you passed especially if you promised to give the money to charity.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 daley wrote:(1) I tested

 

daley wrote:

(1) I tested positive for HIV, and every time I prayed to the other gods I'd go back and get tested again, but to no avail. I prayed to Jesus one single time to remove this virus, and when I went back to the doctor, they couldn't find it in my system. Now, I challenge you to find one person with AIDS, tell them to pray to the sphaghetti monster, and see if they get the same results.

This is a rediculous challenge.  A better challenge to prove your point would be to test 100 die-hard christians with hiv/aids.  Have them pray to jesus just as you did, and see how many are mysteriously cured.  I would guess none would be, and would put money on it.  But cases have been recorded where the virus seemingly disappeared:

Case Of Patient "Cured" Of HIV Baffles Doctors
Doctors and experts are baffled by the case of a 42-year old male American patient living in Berlin whose 10-year long HIV infection appears to have been "cured"

First Case of HIV Cure Reported
A British man is believed to have made medical history by becoming the first person to beat the AIDS virus. Andrew Stimpson twice tested positive for HIV -- but a diagnosis 14 months later showed the deadly virus had left his body.

A Case of HIV/AIDS Cured by Homeopathy
In the year 2002, One Dr. MR MBBS sent a person named JH of age 25 years, originally a man from Bangladesh, who contracted HIV from Singapore to me for Homeopathic treatment. He suffered from continued fever and was sent to the Singapore General Hospital for treatment. He was found to be HIV positive and was sent immediately back home. In the past, I treated and cured a patient with hepatitis B virus referred by Dr. MR to me, which convinced him about the curative power of homeopathy over viral diseases.

And many many many more.  Does that mean I believe these stories, maybe, if I saw some records.  Wouldn't prove a thing about a diety though, all it would prove it that nature, and our body seems to do unexplainable things sometimes, atleast things we have yet been able to explain.  Alote of people get better who shouldn't and alote of people get sicker who should be getting better.  This proves absolutely nothing of the existance of your particular diety of choice.  It is nothing more than either A)-An example of you lying (can you uplaod the records for viewing please) or B)-Something so far unexplainable has happened in your body, something that has happened to millions.  So no good reason to believe in your god here!!!

 

 

daley wrote:

(2) I owed the bank $8050 for a credit card debt that had accumulated lots of interest. No matter how hard I tried, my payments were not enough to keep it down. I wasn't earning enough. When I prayed to Jesus, the very next day I was walking over to my aunt's house, and decided to take a so-called shot-cut where I never used to go because of the dogs that prowl the area, but somehow, I was so carefree that day that I decided "what the heck!" and went through it. It was very bushy, but to my surprize, I fround a brwon envelope laying on the groung in the middle of the pathway with exactly $8050 in it. I looked all around but saw no one who could have dropped it there. If someone else were telling me this I wouldn't want to believe it, but it did happen to me. Now you tell me, that that was just a coincidence!

YES!!!

Some people get struck by lightning twice, or more. 

This ones real cute, I admit this would be a big coincedance, if you were able to prove it ofcourse.  And if you were, all it would show is that it was a big coincedence.  If we believed this was your god, we would have to believe that he actually "works" to give you $8500 and takes the day off when millions pray to him for food.  You sir are narcessistic and self absorbed in a way I can not even imagine, to think god awnsered your pathetically veine prayer for $8500 when hundrends of millions are praying to him everyday for one slice of bread.  If this was gods will, he should be ashamed, and so should you.  This is what your god concerns himself with, your small self-aquired dept?  PATHETIC!!! 

 

 

daley wrote:

(3) I started work as just a gas attendant, and in less than one month of working I heard about a vacancy for a supervisor position. Many were working htere years before I was; so I never approached anyone about the position. I made a simple pray to Jesus to help me move up the ladder, and two days later management called me into a meeting and offered me the position. There were others more academically qualified, etc. I tried praying to other gods in the ast about similar circumstances but got no answers. And even when I thought I did, the answers came a long time after, and were so vauge in comparison to what I was asking for that it tool lots of rationalization and twisting to make it fit the prayer.

This is so silly.  You seem have a lot of problems, problems that are your fault. You seem to just pray to all gods to try to solve them.  And when one circumstance goes your way, you attribute it to that particular prayer.  Can any one say FLAWGIC!!!

 

daley wrote:

(4) I prayed to Jesus and asked him for a pair of Timberlands I saw in a store for $300, but couldn't afford them. I never told anyone about them. Yet, just a few hours later, a friend whom I hadn't seen in two years called me and told me that he was coming back to the island that day and to come see him at the apartment where he would be staying. When I went over the night, he gave me a present: the same exact kind of Timberlands! How do I explain that? I wasn't even into Timberlands when I used to hang out with him. So how could he have known?

OMFG!!!  Jesus gave you timberlands, are you fucking kidding me?  This is not only what you believe, but you think this is the work of (according to you) the most wise and kind of deities.  A wise and caring deity watches from above as millions die from starvation every day.  The horror of watching the world omnipotantly is unimaginable.  And what does your all wise and caring deity do to help, he gives daley new timberlands. 

 

You sir are the posterchild for self-absorbed idiot.  Maybe next time jesus can give you a rolex, or a ferrari.

FUCK OFF!

 

 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

 Maybe next time jesus can give you a rolex, or a ferrari.

... or a fully functioning brain.

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daley
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Beyond Saving wrote:daley

Beyond Saving wrote:

daley wrote:

 

Well if you get such great and immediate results you must really be something special to god so why can't you prove it? It should be fairly simple to make a public exhibition of one of these "miracles" happening. My challenge is silly? Well not if you can really do it. I witness people praying at the poker tables every weekend and doesn't usually work to well for them. So lets sit and prove one way or the other whether your prayers actually make a significant change to chance. If your god can make a brown envelope with $8050 magically appear out of nowhere making sure you hit a royal flush every hand should be childs play. Otherwise, all you have is a bunch of unverified stories and I'm not going to play the "well how did that happen" game when there is no evidence your stories are even true. Why don't you pray for one of those miracles to occur in public with some professional scientists around to verify it? 

 

Why don't you take the Randi $1 million dollar challenge? http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html Surely god would make sure you passed especially if you promised to give the money to charity.  

 

 

God performed many miracles as recorded in the Bible, and though people saw them, and knew he exists, many of them choose not to obey him. Even if your hardened heart were to see a divine miracle completely unexplained by science, I assume the same thing would happen now that happend back then: u'd either admit he exists, but still not serve him, in which case ur belief in him doesn't make a lick of difference to God nor do you a bit of good, or...u'd probably say "well, surely what happened was strange, but how do you know it was God that did it?" I mean, for crying out loud, if I didn't believe that the US President was human, and I were to ask him to prove it by coming by my lab for scientific analysis, would he come? No! Who am I to boss the US president around? Does his denial of my request prove he isn't human? No! Similarly, we can't boss God around and tell him when to do either. And if he gives me a miracle because of my relationship with him, but avoids a showy display just to prove himself to a bunch of hard-headed scientists, I don't blame him.

 

I would even ask you what proof do you have that your won thoughts exist? Have you ever seen or heard one? Have you ever smelt, tasted, or felt one? Can you see a thought with a microscope? With what scientific device are thoughts detected? When you imagine a red apple, does that thought really exist? If so, treat is with the same evidence as you want for God. There are lots of things in the world that can't be disected by scientists, but they are real. So is God. I'm sure God is laughing at your little challenge right now, cause he knows that when you stand before him in judgement you will have to retract all those words and say "if I had known..."


daley
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reasons

I suppose you think he should give me back in time Palestinian boots? Further, my friends pass poor hungry people everyday, and they don't always give to them. But does denying them help mean they won't give me? No! Same with God. He has his reasons.


Beyond Saving
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daley wrote: God performed

daley wrote:

 God performed many miracles as recorded in the Bible, and though people saw them, and knew he exists, many of them choose not to obey him.

Yeah, a couple thousand years ago when long distance communication was impossible. People believed in witches too and had a million demonstrably false beliefs to explain the world around them. Then he mysteriously stops performing miracles after recording devices are available.

daley wrote:

Even if your hardened heart were to see a divine miracle completely unexplained by science, I assume the same thing would happen now that happend back then: u'd either admit he exists, but still not serve him, in which case ur belief in him doesn't make a lick of difference to God nor do you a bit of good, or...u'd probably say "well, surely what happened was strange, but how do you know it was God that did it?"

Hardened? What makes you say my heart is hardened? You can use your brain and still love.

Certainly it would have to be something pretty convincing but being god it should be easy for him to do something pretty convincing. Stopping the sun would be pretty impressive. But even a smaller miracle would at least provide you with SOME evidence, which is a lot more than you have now. I'm not asking you to provide conclusive proof, just a little evidence beyond an ancient book or made up stories. 

Now as far as serving him? Well that depends, if there were a god and he is as much of a sadistic asshole as you christians say he is I wouldn't. If all of you christians are wrong and he is a decent guy I might. Or if god is Alanis Morissette I will serve. 

 

daley wrote:

I mean, for crying out loud, if I didn't believe that the US President was human, and I were to ask him to prove it by coming by my lab for scientific analysis, would he come? No! Who am I to boss the US president around? Does his denial of my request prove he isn't human? No! Similarly, we can't boss God around and tell him when to do either. And if he gives me a miracle because of my relationship with him, but avoids a showy display just to prove himself to a bunch of hard-headed scientists, I don't blame him.

Believing the President is not human isn't very different from believing in god. Both are beliefs that have zero evidence for them and quite a bit against.  

 

daley wrote:

I would even ask you what proof do you have that your won thoughts exist?

 

I am transferring my thoughts to the keyboard and sending them through cyberspace for all to see, if I had no thoughts I wouldn't be able to type them, I do type them, therefore I have thoughts. There is my proof. Of course we could launch into a philosophy argument here but I'm pretty sure you are not up to the task and I have had it many a time and don't care to repeat it. 

 

daley wrote:
Have you ever seen or heard one?

Have you ever smelt, tasted, or felt one?

Wow, getting pretty intimate with my thoughts here. A little lower honey.

 

daley wrote:

Can you see a thought with a microscope? With what scientific device are thoughts detected?

It is called an EEG. The science of thoughts has come a long way but since I am not a scientist I will not attempt to explain it to you. I will leave that for one of the science freaks although I suspect they would be wasting their time. You can google it yourself.

 

daley wrote:

When you imagine a red apple, does that thought really exist? If so, treat is with the same evidence as you want for God. There are lots of things in the world that can't be disected by scientists, but they are real. So is God. I'm sure God is laughing at your little challenge right now, cause he knows that when you stand before him in judgement you will have to retract all those words and say "if I had known..."

 

So what evidence do you have of the existence of god? Some miracles that I doubt actually happened? An ancient book? And once again, why your god? And not Thor? or Aphrodite? And exactly what in the world can't be dissected by scientists? While they can't explain everything they certainly can study everything. Funny that they haven't found any evidence of god.   

 

I suppose you must believe in Bigfoot, ghosts, the Lochness Monster, psychics, fortune tellers and lizard people running the government too since they all have as much evidence or more than your god.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


NoMoreCrazyPeople
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daley wrote:I suppose you

daley wrote:

I suppose you think he should give me back in time Palestinian boots?

 

  Nope, if Jesus wants to give you Timberlands thats great.  It's just utterly upsurd is all, I mean so is the hole you talking to dieties thing but the diety giving you new shoes, priceless.  It's like bad writting in a poor superficial and shallow movie starring Jennifer Garner and Hugh Grant as you in "Dream Shoes".

gag...

  Do you not see how upsurd it is that you believe an all wise diety miraculously gave you new shoes, knowing what is happening around the world, shoes you certainly didn't need.  It's rediculous man!!!  Not so much that he gave you shoes, that you believe this is what wise dieties who love all humans should be doing with their time.  If this "Jesus" appeared to me and gave me new shoes I'd be like "WTF??? Ummm, isn't there something better you could be doing with your time, I don't really need new shoes.  I mean they're nice Jesus really but can't you give them to someone who really needs them more than I do, and while your at it can you please FEED EVERYONE!!!"  

 

daley wrote:

Further, my friends pass poor hungry people everyday, and they don't always give to them. But does denying them help mean they won't give me? No! Same with God. He has his reasons.

  Your friends aren't all powerful dingus, most likely the reason they keep their change most of the time.  Can you please think your analogies through.  Are you saying if you had a magical pocket that never ran out of quarters you would still deny starving people who asked for a couple.  Are you sick?  As sick as the god of Abraham?  Indeed by your logic, and by your own choice it seems you are.  

 

 


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ANSWER TO THE OP: BECAUSE

And finally, the *only* man in Minnesota who says there is no God has suddenly become an arbiter on mental health...

http://www.unfacts.org/factsforum/viewtopic.php?t=4080

COME SEE A PHOTO OF MABUS AND AN EXPLANATION OF IT

COME SEE A PICTURE OF MABUS!

 

 

 

 

The atheists are coming to my city - MONTREAL!

 

http://www.atheistconvention.org/

 

please be sure to stop by for tea

 

atheism is dead forever!

_____________________

add comment moderation to your BS

 

you will not have a PUBLIC FORUM

 

NEW GAME WITH YOU LITTLE F*CKERS - SPEAK N DIE. Come see the latest DM videos  for your viewing pleasure!

 

the WORLD TRADE CENTER PROPHECY - THE DANCE OF DEATH

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Hez25fFrg

 

 

_______________

And the Pope is 100% correct: The Nazis and the atheists both wish to ABOLISH  FAITH....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

________________________

 

hawking is WRONG

 

science cannot explain NOTHING!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMRJJcfEXls&

 

FAIR AND BALANCED!

________________

 

http://dissidentphilosophy.lifediscussion.net/art-f6/the-boobquake-911-t1310.htm

 

_______________________________________________________

October 3  2010 Montreal

PS

go post this up on “pharnygula”. I’ve had an opportunity to see PZ’s ugly face in real life! I am spamming the world from the Delta Hotel where the convention is taking place….

 

 

________________________________________________________________

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/dennis_markuze_exposed.php

 

believe me, the only reason the photo is available is because I WANTED IT OUT THERE....

 

actually it is quite a flattering photo of me:

 

With finger cocked and pointing, I say "And I gotta take out these idiots!"

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xct03m_depeche-mode-barrel-of-a-gun_music

 

 

 

BANG!

 

 

 

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2010/10/dennis_markuze_exposed/crazy-fucker-dennis-marcuze-thumb-400x684-56525.jpg

 

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13526

 

That PZ would post a link on his website to something that completely exposes him for the fraud that he really is completely baffles me....

 

 

 

The reason I ran is because I did not want to be mobbed by my female atheist fan base.

 

And finally, the *only* man in Minnesota who says there is no God has suddenly become an arbiter on mental health...

 

WRONG

 

 

 

See, I am a METAPHYSICAL PLUMBER.... Atheism is the *SHIT* that needs to be FLUSHED DOWN THE TOILET OF THE UNIVERSE!

 


B166ER
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wow... just wow...

I haven't been on in a while, since I haven't yet set up the net at my new pad and I've been missing both the interesting people and the fun threads here. Lucky for me I get on in time to sharpen my teeth with some brainless "arguments".

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

jmm wrote:
Because Christianity is the correct religion.

Wow dude, thanks for pointing out the complete lack of thinking religious folks use to come to their conclusions. Thank you for showing the world the true intellectual capacity of theists. You really make our arguments for us, you know that right? Right?

daley wrote:
(2) I accept the NT documents because unlike the Quaran for example, the extant copies of the NT are close enough to the time of which they speak to show that the originals were contemporary with the events they speak about

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Really? All those books were written generations after the fact. You are just stupid enough to have bought the line passed down from the people on top of the religious hierarchy who use you for their power. Enjoy being used as a pawn by people who know how much of an idiot you are, which is how they exploit you time and time again.

daley wrote:
the manuscripts are numerous enough and old enough to ensure that no one could change all and corrupt the text beyond restoration to the original

Ever play the game telephone, or Chinese whispers to the Brits out there? Yeah, I think you can figure out where I'm taking this.

daley wrote:
myths don't usually put the hero or the author in a bad fix

Actually, EVERY myth puts the hero's into bad situations, or else they wouldn't be compelling characters with which to emotionally and intellectually connect with. Did you not think people here were smart enough to see that you were talking out of your ass?

daley wrote:
(a) there isn't enough time between the writing of the NT and the original events for myths to be accepted universally over the core facts, (b) Jesus death, burial, post-mortem appearence, and the origin of the Christian belief cannot be explained apart from the resurrection..I know of no parallels to this situation in any other religion.

Wow... just wow. The "original events" in your holy babble are fictional tales, nothing more. You wonder how "hundreds" of people agreed with the events as they were written? It's because those hundreds of people were nothing more then the fictional characters needed to flesh out the plot and add realism to a story which has none.

Oh daley, if you're sure your god cured your HIV, then you should do missionary work by intentionally infecting yourself with HIV again and have your god heal you again to bring more people to him. You are the one who said your god answers your prayers, so what are you waiting for? Either inject HIV infected blood into your body or you really don't believe the prayer with help you. This just seems like a Bishop Anthony Lilliman situation, and it didn't work out in the Bishop's favor either. You either believe it will work or you don't. So, do you have that kind of faith or do you know, like us, that your god is a fantasy?

Personally, I don't see any difference between this "god answers prayers" bullshit and this brilliant parody of Scientology from The IT Crowd.

If you want to delude yourself into thinking something powerful enough to have created the entire universe listens to your petty wishes over the wishes of anything else in the universe, that's your choice. Just know that we will treat you like the arrogant fool that kind of thinking is proof of. Delusions of grandeur get no free rides here and if you want your silly delusions treated with respect, then go to one of those religious circle jerks you people call churches. Just know that the people there are as stupid and deluded as yourselves.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


Teralek
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totus_tuus wrote:While my

totus_tuus wrote:

While my experience with polytheism is limited (most narrowly to the classical European pantheons), my observations of these religions causes me to reject them for one of several reasons.  They are either:
   
    1.   obviously based on legend as opposed to theology.  This would appear to be the case with the Norse religions.  It seems obvious to me that Wotan (or Odin) was a real person, a legendary chieftain of great renown.  Likewise would seem to be the case with Thor, who was most probably, a real, live warrior hero of skill whose accomplishements grew through time until they became as of mythic proportions.  Or...

    2.  too busy bickering with each other to be concerned with the well being of humankind.  The myths of Greece and Rome are a long tale of the interaction betwewen god and man, very often with no clear indication of which was the "good guy" and which was the villain.  Or...

    3.  are demons masquerading in the guise of gods, eager to further the wishes of their adherents.  In return, these "gods" exacted a terrible price, most notably Baal, Moloch, Dagon who demanded of their worshippers the most vile of sacrifices, that of human life.

The animism of these ancient cultures, by positing that the divine was immanent in created things, hindered the growth of science by making the idea of physical laws foreign.  Christianity, reposing the Divine in one God, who tencends the world, avoids pantheisim and allows Christians to view the universe as a realm of order and predictability. 

Islam, meanwhile, is simply the Christian heresy of Nestorianism taken to its logical conclusion.

What about the Baha'i faith? They are a religion on their own right, not based on legend.

I don't have a religion, but if I did I would be a Baha'i because I agree with their 12 principles. They say that all major religions have some truth in them, thus are all right. This is the most important thing a religious movement can say. I also wish the unity of mankind, no matter the race, religion, social status, etc.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


Jeffrick
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to Teralek...

 

 

 

               The Ba'hai's  originating in Muslim Persia;  are an offshoot of  Shi'ite Islam, THEY ARE very much based in legands and fairy tales. They are a peaceful non-violent veriation of the old Judeo-Christian- Islam religion of Abraham- jesus- Mohammad.  And their theology part about unity in religion for all mankind is the same as all other religions that ever existed.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


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Wow, Dave's back. Or is it

Wow, Dave's back. Or is it Dennis now?

Will the metaphysical plumber dare to shove a snake through the conduits of his own mind?

Nah, that would take guts and integrity. And he has all but two of those qualities.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:If

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

Please, give me your best reason, what exact logic have you used that has led you to represent a certain religion and not another.   Why are you Christian and not Hindu, or Muslim, or a Scientologist for that matter, are you as versed in the religions you haven't chosen to represent as you are in the one you have chosen to represent?

Question: "How is the Christian religion different from all the other world religions?"

Answer:
Religion is the practice of faith; that is, religion is the external or ceremonial observance of a set of beliefs. Technically, there is a difference between faith (the internal attitude) and religion (the external works), but for the sake of this article, we will define “Christian religion” broadly as “the faithful observance of the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles.”

James 1:27 says that religion that is “pure and faultless” before God is “to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” In other words, care for the needy and personal virtue are externals which are present when one has a true love for God. And, since James specifies that he is speaking of “pure and faultless” religion, there must exist an “unclean and imperfect” type of religion as well—a religion not based on love for God.

Here are five reasons why the Christian religion is better than non-Christian religions (why observing the teachings of Jesus Christ is better than not observing them):

Christian religion - Jesus Christ is the Way to God.
The Christian religion is better than other religions because that which leads to God is better than that which leads away from God. We have sinfully wandered away from God (Isaiah 53:6), and we need a Guide to lead us back. Jesus is that Way (John 14:6), the One to seek the lost (Luke 19:10). Jesus claims not to be one of many ways, but the one-and-only Way to God. He is, in fact, God Himself in human flesh (John 20:28), so to find Jesus is to find God. “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father,” He said (John 14:9). The Christian religion is unique in that it offers a close, intimate relationship with the personal God of the universe.

Christian religion - Jesus Christ is the Truth.
The Christian religion is better than other religions because things that are true are better than things that are false. Jesus is “the Truth” (John 14:6). He is the embodiment of truth, the revelation of God to humanity (Colossians 2:9), and the conveyor of God’s words (John 17:8). The Christian religion is grounded in truth, being based on a historical Person whose acts were verified by eyewitnesses and recorded by four different biographers. Parodies of Christianity often spring up through the work of “false prophets” (1 John 4:1), but only Jesus is true. In following Christ, Christians have the utmost regard for truth, as opposed to hollow externals and the hypocrisy of false appearances. The Christian religion is unique in that it forces us to face the truth about ourselves and speak the truth with others.

Christian religion - Jesus Christ is the Life.
The Christian religion is better than other religions because life is better than death and heaven is better than hell. Jesus is “the Life” (John 14:6); He is the source of life, and without Him one cannot truly live (John 1:4; 3:36; 5:24; 10:10). Jesus provides what we need: the Bread that satisfies forever (John 6:35), the Water that gives eternal life (John 4:14; 7:37-38), and the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25). These are more than empty claims; Jesus proved His ability to give life by raising from the dead Lazarus (John 11), Jairus’ daughter (Mark 5), and the boy from Nain (Luke 7). Then, after His own death on the cross, Jesus rose again the third day, having conquered death forever (Matthew 28). The Christian religion is unique in that it is based on the actual, physical resurrection of its Founder.

Christian religion - Jesus Christ transforms mankind.
The Christian religion is better than other religions because righteousness is better than wickedness. Other religions may impose conformity to a certain code of behavior, but they have no power to change the heart. Christianity teaches that the believer is “dead to sin” and now lives “in newness of life” (Romans 6:2, 4). The authenticating mark of a Christian is his transformation from practicing sin to having a zeal for good works (Titus 2:14; 2 Corinthians 5:17). The Christian’s zeal for doing good has resulted in the founding of countless orphanages, hospitals, clinics, schools, homeless shelters, and emergency relief agencies—all in the name of Christ. The Christian religion is unique in that it does not force change from without but revolutionizes lives from within.

Christian religion - Jesus Christ is loving.
The Christian religion is better than other religions because love is better than the absence of love. God is love (1 John 4:8, 16). Love is the greatest of His gifts to us (1 Corinthians 13:13)—not the fickle, so-called love of the world, but the selfless, unconditional love which always seeks to benefit the one loved. God showed His love for us in sending His one-and-only Son (John 3:16; 1 John 4:10). Jesus showed His love for us in providing for our salvation by dying on the cross (John 15:13). Jesus gave His followers a new command: “Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:34-35). Love, not duty or debt, is what motivates the believer and impels him to greater humility and greater service for the kingdom of heaven. Christianity is unique in that it is not a system of rules but a celebration of unselfish love. “Love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:10).

Man, in his creativity, has invented innumerable religions in his attempt to reach God. God, in His love, has given us the truth: the one religion, Christianity, in which God attempts to reach man.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-religion.html

Question: "What makes Christianity unique?"

Answer:
Is Christianity really unique or is it just one of many roads on the path to Truth? Is Christianity truly unique among the many religions around the world? If it is, what makes it so? Unique among all religions, Christianity makes several claims that others do not. First, all other religions exhort man to reach up to God and grasp hold of Him through their own efforts. Christianity is the only religion where God reaches down to man. Second, other religions are systems of do’s and don’ts to appease God; whereas Christianity is a relationship with God. Third, Christianity looks to the Bible as the singular source of Truth. Finally, Christianity is based upon truly the most unique event in all of human history—the Resurrection.

As to the first issue, other forms of religion subscribe to a system of works—those we should do and those we should avoid—which will make us “good enough” to please God and merit His favor. Christianity, on the other hand, is based on the biblical principle that we can never be good enough to be in the presence of a perfect, holy God. The Mosaic Law was given to mankind to prove to us that we can’t keep it. Galatians 3 describes the purpose of the Law. It is a “tutor” or “schoolmaster” to lead us to Christ because “…by observing the law no one will be justified” (Galatians 2:16). The impossibility of keeping the Law is revealed in what Jesus called the “first and greatest commandment” in Matthew 22:37: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” This would meaning loving God with every fiber our being 24/7, with never a thought for ourselves, an impossible task for anyone. But rather than condemning us as law-breakers and leaving it at that, God provided a substitute— Jesus Christ—who obeyed the Law perfectly for us. By faith in Him and accepting His work on our behalf, we are justified and made righteous. Here is the crucial difference between Christianity and all other religions.

As to the second point, Christianity is not a religious system, but a relationship with God, one that He initiated and maintains. Christians believe that mankind was created specifically to have a relationship with God, but sin separates all men from Him (Romans 3:23, 5:12). Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ walked this earth, fully God, and yet fully man (Philippians 2:6-11) and died on the cross to restore the relationship that was broken by sin. After His death on the cross, Christ was buried, He rose again, and now lives at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for believers forever (Hebrews 7:25). The intimacy of this relationship is revealed in two poignant pictures. Now no longer seen as law-breakers, we have been adopted into God’s own family as His children (Ephesians 1:5). Even more intimately, believers are the very “body of Christ” of which He is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23), having been purchased by His blood ((Hebrews 9:12). No other religion makes assertions that even begin to approximate this incredible truth.

Another fact that makes Christianity unique is that of its source of information. All religions have some sort of basis of information that outlines its beliefs and practices but none have one source of information that makes the claims Christianity does about the Bible—it is the written Word of God and it is infallible and inerrant and all that is necessary for faith and practice (1 Timothy 3:16). Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired—literally “God-breathed”—Word of God, and that its teaching is the final authority (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Though there are other religions that have prophecies in them, none are 100% accurate as are those in the Bible and none of them point to someone like Jesus who made incredible claims and performed incredible deeds.

Perhaps the most defining principle of Christianity that makes it truly unique in every way and provides its fundamental basis is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Within Christianity, the resurrection is vitally important for without it, Christianity does not exist and our faith is useless (1 Cor. 15:14). It was Jesus' resurrection that changed the lives of the disciples. After Jesus was crucified, the disciples ran and hid. But when they saw the risen Lord, they knew that all Jesus had said and done proved that He was indeed God in flesh. No other religious leader has died in full view of trained executioners, had a guarded tomb, and then risen three days later to appear to many people. The resurrection is proof of who Jesus is and that He did accomplish what He set out to do: provide the only means of redemption for mankind. Buddha did not rise from the dead. Muhammad did not rise from the dead. Confucius did not rise from the dead. Krishna did not rise from the dead. Only Jesus has physically risen from the dead, walked on water, claimed to be God, and raised others from the dead. He has conquered death. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ who claimed to be God, performed many miracles to prove His claim of divinity, died and rose from the dead, and claimed that He alone is “the way the truth and the life” (John 14:6) and that no one comes to the Father except through Him.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christianity-unique.html

 


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 William N Clarke

 

William N Clarke wrote:

Preach preach preach, burp, preach preach, blink, preach...

 

  I'm not going through this painful preach session, I'd like to point out that you are using the bible to prove  that the bible is true, your entire reply is circular.  Furthermore it would be very easy to replicate using other religions as examples and quotes from their holy book to prove other quotes from their holy book, highly unimpressive.  Got anything else? 

 


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You clearly asked a question

You clearly asked a question for which you did not want an honest answer.  Your next reply will determine whether or not I shall continue this conversation with you, as I have no desire to talk to someone who is not interested in serious dialogue.

Your poor attitude notwithstanding, you admittedly asked a very simple question: Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

You did not ask, “How do you know that your religion is true?”  While it is not permissible to use the Bible to prove that the Bible is true, there is nothing fallacious about using the Bible to prove that Christianity is true, so long as it can be established that the Bible is credible as a historical document, a proposition which, as it stands, has never been credibly disproven by any atheist or skeptic but has been soundly supported by excellent scholars such as NT Wright, Norman Geisler, James White, William Lane Craig, and so on.

But to your actual question, here are your answers:

Christianity is the only religion where God reaches down to man. All other religions are works righteousness religions whereby we attempt to bridge the chasm between us and God by ascending to His level. If any other religion had this quality, I may take it into consideration.

Christianity is a relationship with God, one that He initiated and maintains. It is the only religion where we are adopted into God’s own family as His children. No other religion makes assertions that even begin to approximate this incredible truth. If one of them did, I may take it into consideration.

Christianity is the only religion that is substantiated by prophecy. The Old Testament predicted Jesus and the New Testament confirmed Jesus. If any other religion had this quality, then I may take it into consideration.

Perhaps the most defining principle of Christianity that makes it truly unique in every way and provides its fundamental basis is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Within Christianity, the resurrection is vitally important for without it, Christianity does not exist and our faith is useless (1 Cor. 15:14). It was Jesus' resurrection that changed the lives of the disciples. After Jesus was crucified, the disciples ran and hid. But when they saw the risen Lord, they knew that all Jesus had said and done proved that He was indeed God in flesh. No other religious leader has died in full view of trained executioners, had a guarded tomb, and then risen three days later to appear to many people. The resurrection is proof of who Jesus is and that He did accomplish what He set out to do: provide the only means of redemption for mankind. Buddha did not rise from the dead. Muhammad did not rise from the dead. Confucius did not rise from the dead. Krishna did not rise from the dead. Only Jesus has physically risen from the dead, walked on water, claimed to be God, and raised others from the dead. He has conquered death. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ who claimed to be God, performed many miracles to prove His claim of divinity, died and rose from the dead, and claimed that He alone is “the way the truth and the life” (John 14:6) and that no one comes to the Father except through Him.

 

 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

 

William N Clarke wrote:

Preach preach preach, burp, preach preach, blink, preach...

 

  I'm not going through this painful preach session, I'd like to point out that you are using the bible to prove  that the bible is true, your entire reply is circular.  Furthermore it would be very easy to replicate using other religions as examples and quotes from their holy book to prove other quotes from their holy book, highly unimpressive.  Got anything else? 

 

I'd just like to point out that “the faithful observance of the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles.” is Judaism, not Christianity.

Christianity is a construct of the Roman citizen Paul. He wanted to one up the Pharisees who rejected him and fuse Jesus with the myths he grew up with, abrogating the Torah and making the followers of this new faith more accepting of and acceptable to the empire. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:I'd just like

 

 sdg


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That's a Christian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

                        William N Clarke,  I had thought you articulate untill this moment.  You are nothing  more then an ignorant little man, a true christian no doubt. Yet you counter a measured argument with an historical reference by insulting someones waistline.  Even if you look like Mr.Universe and jcgadfly looks like THE universe, how is that possibly an articulate argument for or against religion or god? But then you are a good chistian aren't you!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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Yep had him nailed on

Yep had him nailed on another forum. Notice he said meaning of life? I knew it.


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What can I say? He likes

What can I say? He likes bears.

I'm not gay but I guess he can still dream


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jcgadfly wrote:What can I

jcgadfly wrote:

What can I say? He likes bears.

I'm not gay but I guess he can still dream

That's right, Jeff is not gay.  He is actually married.  I'd be interested to know what his wife looks like.  She would have to be hideously ugly because there is no way any woman who is beautiful enough to choose from a multitude of men would actually choose Jeff. 

Jeff, do you have trouble urinating in the right direction?  I mean, it would be incredibly difficult for you to locate your dick beneath that huge gut, let alone aim it in the right direction.


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William N Clarke

William N Clarke wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

What can I say? He likes bears.

I'm not gay but I guess he can still dream

That's right, Jeff is not gay.  He is actually married.  I'd be interested to know what his wife looks like.  She would have to be hideously ugly because there is no way any woman who is beautiful enough to choose from a multitude of men would actually choose Jeff. 

Jeff, do you have trouble urinating in the right direction?  I mean, it would be incredibly difficult for you to locate your dick beneath that huge gut, let alone aim it in the right direction.

 

Yo' mama is so fat she has her own area code.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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William N Clarke

William N Clarke wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

What can I say? He likes bears.

I'm not gay but I guess he can still dream

That's right, Jeff is not gay.  He is actually married.  I'd be interested to know what his wife looks like.  She would have to be hideously ugly because there is no way any woman who is beautiful enough to choose from a multitude of men would actually choose Jeff. 

Jeff, do you have trouble urinating in the right direction?  I mean, it would be incredibly difficult for you to locate your dick beneath that huge gut, let alone aim it in the right direction.

Don't worry, MoL.

You'll find someone who loves you. Maybe you should buy a dog.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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ITS a CALLING, just as geese

ITS a CALLING, just as geese are called to be geese, moose to be moose

whatever..... and I could say, Why are you given to ATHEISM?
What does atheism offer the world, the seekers????

pax


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William N Clarke wrote:You

William N Clarke wrote:

You clearly asked a question for which you did not want an honest answer. 

 

  Wrong,  you can understand I have no interest in reading a large reply filled with highlighted scriptures indicating preaching.  I am most likely not going to be intellectually stimulated in a conversation with such types, entertained perhaps.  I have read the bible many times, I don't need it quoted over and over.  Use your own words please.

William N Clarke wrote:

 While it is not permissible to use the Bible to prove that the Bible is true, there is nothing fallacious about using the Bible to prove that Christianity is true, so long as it can be established that the Bible is credible as a historical document, a proposition which, as it stands, has never been credibly disproven by any atheist or skeptic but has been soundly supported by excellent scholars such as NT Wright, Norman Geisler, James White, William Lane Craig, and so on.

 

This is bullocks.  Are you saying if a book holds some historical truth, we should believe all parts of the story are credible?  Even the MAGICAL ones?  Here you say "there is nothing fallacious about using the Bible to prove that Christianity is true, so long as it can be established that the Bible is credible as a historical document." 

Think about that for a second, please!  So you proclam:  If a book is proven to hold some historical truth, it can be used as solid evidence for the other impossible things found in the book.  Like... the fact their is a this city, and a that person who were real, then that is a good argument for talking snakes.  ??? 

 

William N Clarke wrote:

Christianity is the only religion where God reaches down to man. All other religions are works righteousness religions whereby we attempt to bridge the chasm between us and God by ascending to His level. If any other religion had this quality, I may take it into consideration.

  How is Christianity the only religion where god "reaches down to man"?  This is a common trait amoung many religions.  Asending to "gods level" seems pretty common to me, can you exaplain how you don't think it is.  Every religion seems to have its own way for you to be "like god" in the afterlife, isn't that what it's all about for you believers.  Even buddhism, where "god" is just an enlightened mind, it is something which you can somewhat acheive and work towards.  It's all the same empty promise no matter how you slice it:

**believe A for no reason without evidence and appose B,C,D,E,F etc...  and you will be "like god "**

  You want to be like your god, others do not, you see they want to be like their gods, why is your scenario any better?  Ok, so I'll be buddhist today:  " William, I like the way that buddhism has described our possibilities to be *like god*.   I like the buddhist imagery, I love the history, the stories, I like the monks, I like the clothes, I like the temples, the culture, the martial arts, the amazing architecture , etc...  I love EVERYTHING about being a buddhist."

  What exactly do you as a christian say to that.  What type of evidence for your miracles do you have that he doesn't have for his.  What nice feeling do you get from christianity that he doesn't get from his faith.  Can you give me one good reason why that buddhist should become a christian.  Are you thinking "Because it's true?"  If you are then you are truly a had mind,  you see that's how you tell.  Did you think it?

William N Clarke wrote:

Christianity is a relationship with God, one that He initiated and maintains. It is the only religion where we are adopted into God’s own family as His children. No other religion makes assertions that even begin to approximate this incredible truth.

  You see when you end the sentence there with "incredible truth,"  you clearly show that you are preaching.  This is how preachy christians speak, quit it, it is unbecoming!  It is not a truth, it is something in your holybook you believe to be true.  Having said that, atleast you gave reason.   So you like this child-father relationship with your god, and you don't see it in other religions.  Many would argue alote of religions have that aswell, but forget that.  What about the "you become god" types,  the "you are god" or "the universe is god" etc... do they not comfort you in the same way as the child-father concept?  Can you dig a little deeper into why the child-father thing is so important to you in your picking religions.     

William N Clarke wrote:

Christianity is the only religion that is substantiated by prophecy.  The Old Testament predicted Jesus and the New Testament confirmed Jesus

Oh no, another profecy discussion.  Yawn...    The arguments that the bible predicts it's own future are rediclous in nature.  There is no reason to believe there is any form of genuine profecy in the bible.  That's that. 

William N Clarke wrote:

 If any other religion had this quality, then I may take it into consideration.

  Why don't you do be a nostradamus follower then, he had some nifty predictions aswell. 

 

WARNING, PREACHING ALERT!

 

William N Clarke wrote:

Perhaps the most defining principle of Christianity that makes it truly unique in every way and provides its fundamental basis is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Within Christianity, the resurrection is vitally important for without it, Christianity does not exist and our faith is useless (1 Cor. 15:14). It was Jesus' resurrection that changed the lives of the disciples. After Jesus was crucified, the disciples ran and hid. But when they saw the risen Lord, they knew that all Jesus had said and done proved that He was indeed God in flesh. No other religious leader has died in full view of trained executioners, had a guarded tomb, and then risen three days later to appear to many people. The resurrection is proof of who Jesus is and that He did accomplish what He set out to do: provide the only means of redemption for mankind. Buddha did not rise from the dead. Muhammad did not rise from the dead. Confucius did not rise from the dead. Krishna did not rise from the dead. Only Jesus has physically risen from the dead, walked on water, claimed to be God, and raised others from the dead. He has conquered death. Only in Christianity do we have the person of Christ who claimed to be God, performed many miracles to prove His claim of divinity, died and rose from the dead, and claimed that He alone is “the way the truth and the life” (John 14:6) and that no one comes to the Father except through Him.

 

   Glad that's over.  It's like you try really hard, keeping the annoying preachy christian inside for brief moments, but slowly as you type it gets stronger and stronger untill it takes over and KAPLOW, your being preachy again.  Just so you know, many gods have been resurected, many have "conquered death."  These are just some the gods who apparently died and were ressurected prior to jesus:

Horus of Egypt
Thulis of Egypt
Inanna of Mesopotamia
Attis, Adonis, Persephone, and Dionysus of Greece
Krishna, Sakia, and Buddha of India
Tammuz of Syria
Hesus of the Celtic Druids
Quirinus of Rome
Alcestis of Euripedes
Atys of Phrygia
Indra of Tibet
Crite of Chaldea
Odin of Scandinavia
Baal of Phoenicia

 

You should know the ressurection thing was actually quite played out.   

 

 

 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:If

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

Because my religion is true and all of the others are false.

I think that's a good enough reason, no?

Quote:
Why are you Christian

Shouldn't you have titled the post, "Question for Christians"? 


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Bloody_Cross

Bloody_Cross wrote:

Shouldn't you have titled the post, "Question for Christians"? 

Not at all I welcome all religious folk to awnser the question.  It just turns out only christians seem to come to play.  


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Simple. I am a Christian

Simple. I am a Christian because I believe Jesus died and rose from the dead. I think there is enough evidence for that, all one has to do is take a small leap of faith.


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Bloody_Cross

Bloody_Cross wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

Because my religion is true and all of the others are false.

I think that's a good enough reason, no?

Quote:
Why are you Christian

Shouldn't you have titled the post, "Question for Christians"? 

Every religious adherent says the same thing about their particular flavor.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Bloody_Cross

jcgadfly wrote:

Bloody_Cross wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

If you are representing a particular religion my question is:

Why are you representing that religion, and not another?

Because my religion is true and all of the others are false.

I think that's a good enough reason, no?

Quote:
Why are you Christian

Shouldn't you have titled the post, "Question for Christians"? 

Every religious adherent says the same thing about their particular flavor.

So?