Spirits
Posted on: September 14, 2010 - 11:57am
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Spirits
Ok, I'm not an atheist because I believe in spirits. I see apparitions and I get psychic advice from them as well. I actually heard from a spirit that told me my uncle was going to die soon and I went around and told the rest of the family that and then he passed away 3 months later. So that's why I believe in the spirit world. What is an atheist's viewpoint on that perspective?
L
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Yeah but the ones they questioned that even passed polygraph tests, when they later went back to question more these people confessed. Now I beleive they did so out of fear. Not to say that they actually beleive that a psychic ratted them out but because they knew they were a point of interest. I'm also pretty sure that these people had a wrap sheet of about two miles long already. It is possible to do a background check on anyone for about $45. With that you can find out anything and everything you could possibly want to know about that person. All these psychics have to do is go to petifiles.com or whatever to pull up names. I don't buy this crap the least bit. There is always a rational explanation for this kinds of stuff.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Brian, can you tell me what happened to your friend again. I didn't quite understand the story. What kind of "something" was he talking about? Like turning a coincidence into a "mystical sign"? He thought there was hidden meaning behind it?
L
My daughter and I had the same thing happen with a yorkie we had that the neighbors dog stepped on and broke it's neck. My daughter woke up 2 months later crying and saying the dog had been in the bed with her because she saw the imprint in her pillow where the dog would sleep. She said her neck felt warm because coco had been laying across her neck. It took about a year for the crying and the crazy dreams to stop but I think when someone is so emotionally destraught over something like this it's natural for that to happen. Kinda like wishful thinking almost.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
That sucks, it really does and I am sorry you had to go through that. But you are not the only one who has someone close to them murdered. Kids as well get murdered. It sucks for anyone who loses a loved one, murdered or not, old age or disease. No one likes losing a loved one, for any reason.
Unfortunately humans are capable of murder, they always have been and always will be. Just because something bad happens doesn't make magic real, it merely means you have been negatively affected by this loss.
"Seeing them" is merely a product of stress and a natural desire of wanting them to still be around. So your brain can come up with these delusions while you are unaware of this merely being your brain acting out a mundane coping mechanism. This placebo can be intense and feel real and even feel scary, but it is all in your head, nothing more. Your loved one, just like my dead grandmother and dead father, are dead, and will stay dead and never talked to me after their deaths.
I would not be shocked in the least if I had a friend die if I "saw them". But I would know that I wasn't "seeing them" in reality, but that my brain was merely acting out trying to cope with the stress of losing them.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
No, we were out of touch, I didn't know his living situation, we weren't close when he was alive. He was a truck driver for 25 years. etc. Not into drugs or anything that could've resulted in his death. His teenage son shot him to death on valentine's day bc my uncle threatened to take his car away if he didn't improve his grades in school. How dumb is that? Here's the proof: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5563884.html Who could've suspected someone was idiotic enough to retaliate over something like that?
L
L
Brian, sorry to hear. I know that's tragic. And watching someone -whether it be an animal or human- die right in front of you is a horrific image. I understand what u mean about that wishful thinking. That's so true.
L
Great example. The dog wasn't there and the "heat" she felt was much like an amputee's phantom pain, and the "pillow imprint" was merely retrofitting what she wanted to see because she suddenly woke up out of the dream and was not completely lucid, much less rational due to the stress of the event and the dream.
About three months ago I was walking my dog and a dachshund ran out into a high speed road. It was naturally defending it's turf but unfortunately got hit and killed. The jackass that hit the dog stopped for a second asked what he had hit, but then left the scene. The worst part was that the dog's owners had kids who watched their dog get hit and die.
I am sure those kids might still be dealing with bad dreams themselves.
But to the OP, losing a loved one is always hard and stressful and our brains can act out without us being aware of it or knowing what we are "experiencing" isn't really real.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Well, you did know some things about his living situation. You knew that he was alive. What else you knew isn't really clear from the limited information you provided. Maybe you had some reason to think that his son was insane, but even if you didn't I'm not sure why you think we should believe it was anything other than a coincidence.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
So tell me this, did anyone pay attention to the idea that this kid might have been upset that his parents were divorced or maybe he was upset with his dad because he felt he diur family dn't try hard enough for them to have a happy family? Was anyone in your family including those who had encounters with these spirits concerned with this childs emotional status?
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Poor weenie! I gave mine away 7 months ago because I moved into house I couldn't have him in. If that had been the case with mine I would probably be institutionalized right now because I'm still not over that dog
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Here goes another one. This happened 6 months ago. I remember making contact with my ex-boyfriend's new girlfriend. Right. I didn't care that he moved on, I was with someone else, we and the girl were cool, etc. Anyway, my ex-boyfriend's dead relative contacts me and tells me to tell her that there's something Sammie (the ex) is hiding which is not going away on its own. He's trying to bury it by ignoring it but dismissing it isn't going to work. Now that's ALL this spirit told me and I had NO clue what he was referring to but that's all I got. You with me so far? I didn't do any google searches, didn't run any background checks, didn't do anything to dig up some dirt on this dude before I made this prediction.
Girl, the next day, I was on myspace and bc I had just talked to her I had him (the ex) on my mind so I wondered if he was on that site. Well, I browsed for his name and came across this: Sammie Caison.
About me:
im in the marines i reside at camp luguene im gay i prefer dudes so holla at me pa
Read more: http://www.myspace.com/97842523#ixzz0zXYsi4uy
Girl, you know I fell on my knees and thanked the LORD that man was out of my life for good. LOL. I emailed it to the new girlfriend and everything. That shit is so nasty! You don't know what that dude is into on the down low. That's dangerous. That profile was there way before we ever started dating and we had ended our relationship 3 years ago. I was way over him before I reconnected briefly with them 6 months ago. I changed my email address and never looked back. Recently, my sister even sent me a doc where he had been kicked out of the military back in Dec. for embezzlement. He served time in jail and everything.
Now, how accurate would u say that prediction was?
U asked the ? I can't and am not trying to shape your beliefs. Don't care really. Just talking.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Well, that's the thing I had no preconceived notions about my cousin being THAT crazy. As a child, he did a couple of Hollywood movies and TV shows, my uncle bought him the car outright. They were doting, loving parents when it came to him and he was a single child. They divorced but they remained in the same city and he could spend time with either of them whenever he wanted. He also got whatever he wanted. But I lived in NC and uncle resided in TX. I didn't keep tabs on him. If they were concerned, they didn't let me in on it.
L
I wouldn't because I don't believe it. Your gonna tell me you had no inclination that he might play for the other team while you dated him I'm sure. Who dumped who? If he broke up with you that's probably the reason why. Like most women do I bet you called him a fag. I did that when I left my ex husband and funny thing my son came home one weekend and said he saw dad kissing Brad. I like to think of this as a womans intuition. We may not contiously know it but deep down theres something that tells you " this dude is wrong for my ass ".
Good thing you got away and hey gays aren't bad people. Only the ones that don't have enough respect for you to tell you that they are doing something like that. Most do but then there are some real assholes. I wouldn't thank god for my being smart. I'd kiss myself in the mirror and say " girl,you f'd up but you got the sense to know better now".
Anyway, gotta go eat. Check back later.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Well, you did ask "What is an atheist's viewpoint on that perspective?" It's difficult to form a viewpoint without knowing what actually happened. Apparently this is to be taken on face value. So, taking the story on face value my opinion is that the prediction of your uncles death is not sufficient reason to believe in the existence of spirits for several reasons, one being that it wasn't even a prediction.
The spirits according to you said that your uncle would die. Everyone is going to die without exception. They didn't say when or where or how. That isn't a prediction. But even if it had been a prediction I haven't seen any reason so far to think that it truly was information from spirits as opposed to a guess that unfortunately happened to be correct.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
I could, but then I'll bet I've lived a lot longer than you have. We were living in central Washington state in a town so small, if you didn't have a county road named after your family, you were one of the "new" people. Seriously, about 1600 people in the middle of nothing but wheat farms.
So this young man wrecks his third or fourth car, and his mom and step-dad refuse to buy him another. Told him - you are out of high school, get a job and save up and buy it yourself. He killed both of them with a shovel. Everyone in town was shocked. Never expected something like that from this guy. The police were shocked - it was so easy to figure out who did it, the kid didn't even try to cover his tracks very well.
So, yeah, I could expect something like that.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I have to wonder had your uncle survived the attack would that have convinced you that there are no spirits?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Girl, I broke up with him. I really wasn't actually thinking you or anyone else would believe it was an authentic psychic prediction I was asking it to be funny bc like you said you just don't believe in it. Anything else would be delusional/wishful-type thinking on my part. What would be the point? Ur right. It was a smart move but God was I grateful. LOL. I got tested after we broke up. I'm clean and want to keep it that way. I didn't care what decision that girlfriend made after that. That's her life. Oh well. Nice talking to you. Good eats.
L
Girl, I broke up with him. I really wasn't actually thinking you or anyone else would believe it was an authentic psychic prediction I was asking it to be funny bc like you said you just don't believe in it. Anything else would be delusional/wishful-type thinking on my part. What would be the point? Ur right. It was a smart move but God was I grateful. LOL. I got tested after we broke up. I'm clean and want to keep it that way. I didn't care what decision that girlfriend made after that. That's her life. Oh well. Nice talking to you. Good eats.
L
No, I said that I think you're a liar and a troll.
Bridge breeding proves evolution false.
L
No, there were other moments in my life which also validated my beliefs in spirit. So this wouldn't have convinced me. I said my dad would die and he didn't even when I thought I was sure of it. Then I said my uncle would die and he did even though I doubted that claim up until it happened.
L
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
You did not predict anything. How many people have you known who have died where you didn't "see it" coming. Can you also predict the the death of someone across the globe whom you will never meet and know nothing about them?
You didn't have any "validation" other than validating yourself with what you wanted to see.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Ok well I don't believe in being able to talk to the dead because of course my belief is that when you're dead you're dead. Look at it from this point of view if you will. How in the world a dead person or spririt for that matter speak to someone who is living or at all for that matter? They're brain is buried with them and pretty much mush after a few weeks of decomposing. Or if they were cremated it is now ashes. How would their brain work? We talked earlier or I did about your brain having to comunicate what your eyes see. If their eyes are in a grave or an earn somewhere there is no way that there is any connection there.
So we're back to square one. Without sounding degrading I think you should probably seek counciling or something. Again, I'm no doctor just a regular person. It doesn't have to be an in-patient type thing. Most doctors can handle this with appointments and prescribe medication that suits your needs to help fight this thing. I'm saying this because I know people who have somewhat the same issues. Not talking to dead people or spirits but people that aren't there. I think my husband is going to post something in a minute about a friend of his that has an issue with seeing people that aren't really there.
I don't know you personally and you just made a profile here today but so far what I've read is a little alarming. Pleases understand I am not mocking you and I'm telling you this because from what I've seen from my husbands friend, it only gets worse. It might seem kinda fun to you now but later it may become bothersome and actually make you go off the deep end. This type of thing isn't normal at all. But if you're doing it because you're bored well, it's been kinda fun to debate about.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
experiences are all subjective and non-verifiable. There has never been, ever, in the history of the world, proof of a supernatural world outside the human mind. What more can we say?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Lashounda,
Let me tell you a story about a dear friend of mine. For the sake of privacy lets call him "John".
John and I have been friends now for better than 15 years. Not long after meeting him I noticed that something wasn't right about this guy.
John was in and out of jail. Most of the charges raised against him were for excessive use of force. This guy has been to jail more than 15 times on this charge. What it amounts to is that he may not be the one that instigates the argument, however he is the one that ends up setting out to kill the other person.
I never knew why John acted this way until he told me the story of his childhood. This guy was molested by his neighbors for years. He didn't realize at the time, but his mind was creating alter egos to deal with this tragedy.
He later explained to me that in his adult life he has seen and talked to several people that he knew were not there. He has been on medication for years now and voices in his head are still there. His explanation of how he first encountered these voices sounds eerily similar to yours. I am not trying to scare you but I will say that what you are experiencing may be very detrimental to your health.
Now only two years ago John had an MRI because the headaches were getting to bad. He found that he had a massive aneurysm. He had surgery to correct the clot in his head. After that he decided to become more open to people about the visions, and voices in his head. At first he thought these voices in his head was his dead grandmother. He was certain that they were really there. He even wrote down some of the things that the voices told him. Some of it was very scary, other parts funny.
Now John went into a mental institution for 6 months last year. This seems to be doing great for him and his recovery is looking good. Now he does still have the voices, however now he can rationalize the difference between them and reality.
I hope that you will realize that the what you are going through may be the early warning signs of a very serious problem. Don't just sit back and say these voices are a good thing when they may actually be killing you.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
It's true that I also never really understood and accepted the idea of subconsciousness repeating memories, or brain wanting to fool itself, producing hallucinations on demand. I spend so much time in introspection, so I know that there is no demand! I do not want, do not expect or know about something, and yet it comes into my perception. unprecedented. If subconsciousness would repeat some memories, I should at least in some cases be able to identify these memories and catch the subconsciousness red-handed of counterfeiting reality.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Luminon it is scientific fact, that even when awake we take in all sorts of data through our conscious input without being aware of it. Colors, smells, temperature, touch, taste, can all be taken in at the same time. That data is also taken in while we are asleep. Our brains are not partitioned like a hard drive. Our touch, taste, smell, sight, and memory portions of our brain still interact while we are asleep, even if we are unaware that is what is going on. We have plenty of brain scan studies that show this to be fact.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Thanks everyone for taking this discussion seriously. It still seems that most who are participating in this discussion don't have a SERIOUS answer for when multiple people report the same sighting. That would mean people who see ghosts on different occasions but report the same image, at the same location are also hallucinating or losing their minds at that precise moment in time ALWAYS. That's an illogical conclusion from my perspective.
To me, it seems like you are all saying trade one far-fetched notion for another one.
I think what people are saying is they don't believe you. What you are describing:
1. Has been claimed by many, many people throughout history.
2. Has never been verified under controlled conditions. Never, as in, never in all of human history.
3. This claim has a long and sordid history of fraudsters taking the money of gullible people.
In conclusion, why should they take your claim as extraordinary, when all other similar claims have never born fruit?
I think you should forgive some skepticism on their parts.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Hey guys, my fellow atheists, I want you to confirm right now, that I am a millionaire. If 5 people here say I am, is it true? What about 40 people? What if 100 atheists at this site said "Yea, Brian37 is a millionaire". What if 500 people said I was?
But what if I refused to show you my bank statement? What if none of these people could either? Could that many people be lying to you? Maybe they aren't lying to you and simply believed me because I told them I was.
You'd be a fool to believe them or me simply because we uttered it.
NOW, if I did have a bank statement from a real bank you could walk into, then I would not be making it up, and I would not be lying to you.
Mass delusion is a common thing in humans. It is why people pray in groups. It isn't that prayer actually works, or that Muslim prayer works and Christian prayer does not. It is that one person looks at another seeming to believe in something and sees them getting something out of that behavior and wants to be part of it.
BUT someone else brought up the fact that these things are NOT TESTED in controlled settings, which merely means that if a bunch of people, like an individual, want to believe something so badly, they will.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You were given answers. I don't why you thought you could come here and actually find someone that would believe this but ok, live in your delusional world and I hope you don't (ever) have kids.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
She was given answers. They weren't "Oh gosh, you're so right" so she thinks they weren't serious answers.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Now I'm wondering was this person hallucinating or simply dealing with memories from her subconscious when she knew nothing prior to the sightings.
In 1988, the Wyrick family moves into a new home, which was mysteriously abandoned by the previous owners. Shortly afterward, their four-year-old daughter Heidi begins spending time with an imaginary friend, a kindly old man named Mr. Gordy. Several months later, Heidi is frightened by the appearance of a man at the front door. The man, whose hand is wrapped in bandages and shirt covered in blood, introduces himself as "Khan", but upon investigation, Heidi's mother is unable to find Khan, and dismisses him as a figment of Heidi's imagination.
However, further research reveals that a kindly old man named Gordy used to serve as caretaker for the property, and that a man named Lon (which Heidi misheard as "Khan" ) once lost his hand in an accident nearby; photos of both men match Heidi's descriptions, even though they both had died decades before Heidi was even born.
People like this aren't the ones who are delusional to me.
No, it really seems like everyone else is upset that that's not my response. However, this is a debate forum.
YOU'RE LYING.
Hard to ignore when I put it like that, right? You can't verify your claim, so it's merely a what-if at best... And to make things worse, this scenario you've created is one you're can't lose. That as much as anything else, for me, suggests that you're lying. I mean, aside from the fact that you're suggesting something ridiculous.
So yeah.
Bridge breeding proves evolution false.
And in Ghost is our trust!
You are not theist Lashonda. You are a mystic.
A good half of the United States of America for a good year has sincerely believed that Saddam Husein has possessed weapons of mass destruction.
A good part of the United States of America is sincerely believing that the President of the United States of America is Muslim. (and only Ann Coulter knows the truth ... curiously).
I can give you more examples of mass illusions. They all have one thing in common - the lack of MATERIAL evidence.
If you produce an authentic 'tape' of your ghosts, you can get a million $$$ in a matter of days. Go for it! I wish you the best luck in your ghost hunt. ("We're going on a ghost hunt. Take pictures with my camera..." kids' song)
Good luck,
100%
P.S. And we do not need to explain something that lacks material evidence. In other words, there's nothing to explain.
There is no evidence. Produce a single MATERIAL evidence and we can talk.
ABSOLUTELY everyone who "reports" a sighting is lying! Yes.
The company of 12 boys reported that their friend felt down the stairs right on the kitchen knife .... and he repeated to do so 20 times. I think that this is a more probable report than sighting ghosts.
(at least you have a body)
LOL. Yea, I'm not a theist. I didn't put this thread here.
Heidi ... FOUR-YEAR-OLD! What's wrong with you? My seven-year-old when even slightly pushed for answers will make up fantastic stories and identify any human on any picture as her best friend. How about pirates that lost their hands in battles?
Omfig!!! What does that tell you then. If people don't take tapes seriously because we all know that you can do special effects then that alone should be proof that this doesn't really happen! Four year olds make up stories all the time. When I was four I told my mom that I saw on the news that a little girl was in the car with her mom qnd mom hit a bump, little girl swallowed the sucker she had in her mouth and died. Why? Because my mom got on to me for eating candy in the car cuz she thought that could happen.
Overprotective mommy syndrome is what I call it. Kids make up things because they want to feel like the grown ups. They hear their parents talking about stuff and they want to fit in with those conversations. They see things on tv and their minds just go wild.
They also do it for attention. My daughter complain about stomachs aches constantly for weeks when she was five. I had just had my son so she felt a little out of the loop. What better way to grab moms full attention than a medical issue? I took her to the doctor who referred her to a GI specialist who did an upper gi and found low and behold nothing was wrong.
I spent a good bit of money on this crap and needless to say I was pretty pissed. Moral of the story, KIDS MAKE THINGS UP. That story you posted had no relevance whatsoever.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Wow. Your basic logic is really badly broken here. If you now claim that we will not believe MATERIAL evidence, how can you even assume that we will believe in hearsay evidence????
This is like Brian says that he has 10 million dollars in his bank account and he says that he has his bank account statement in his pocket, BUT he refuses to show us this statement to prove his claim because "we will not believe him anyway".
I think this is a classical attempt of fraud.
I even know some pseudo-scientists (real pseudo-scientists without education but with a history of spending time behind bars) who managed get mega$$ from the government by using this EXACT tactics.
I'm not upset that that isn't your responce however I don't see your point in adding more fuel to the fire. I for one am not going to but this crap. Apparently you thought you would get some positive feedback on this issue and you did, just not the kind you wanted.
I'll give you a one up example. The ghost of Michael Jackson during the I think CNN interview in his neverland estate. Do you believe that and if so why? Because the ghostwas shaped like Michael? I find it truly ironic that it happened to be during this interview. I don't recall anymore sightings being brought up. Just this one time somebody was bored and they knew they were coming to so interviews. It's bs I tell you, bs.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
ABSOLUTELY everyone who reports a sighting either wants attention or is insane. You want attention, like the majority of people who claim this. That's why you built your little scenario with the, "I wasn't the only one who saw it," tag -- so that we can't say, "oh, she's crazy!" What options do we have, then? Either to assume you're lying or correct. So what are the chances you're correct? Well, you're claiming something happened for which there is zero scientific evidence. Saying, "lots o ppl hav seen ghosts 2!" doesn't disprove a damn things, because lots of people see Chupcabras, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, Yetis, Vampires, and a dozen other things... So by your logic, all those things must be real too. So the only other option is to assume you're a lying little troll.
Bridge breeding proves evolution false.