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KPO89
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I'm a theist. I was raised in a Christian home and at the age of 17 I denounced my religion for agnosticism. At the age of 19, I came to a new understanding of the Bible which led me to believe differently. I'm disgusted with the pervasive idea of Christianity today. I don't find much solice in their company. I would like to understand your points of belief in the nonexistence of God. I've been in debates both electronically and in person. I'm not here to criticize your belief. I'm here to debate and gain a better understanding of the arguments. Looking forward to learning from you all and making friendships along the way.

 

I have interest in camping, jeans, boots, technology, business, leather, and music.


100percentAtheist
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KPO89 wrote: I do believe

KPO89 wrote:

 I do believe people in Saudi Arabia have the choice to search out other religions other than the one they are born into. 

 

Ready to test your belief? Smiling

HOW do they know about YOUR Christ?   JUST HOW? Physically, how do people in say Iran, in a typical Iranian village can f&*^ng get your Bible?  TELL ME?  

 

All right.  Tell me how you think it is physically possible, or I will have to conclude you take your arguments out of blue.

 


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:

KPO89 wrote:
 

Well then inform me. Please don't call me stupid and leave it at that.

 

Dogs are still walking on four legs and barking. They've changed color and size but not features that affect their "lifestyle"

 

Entropy is the law that energy must continually imputed into a system or else the system fails. What is the energy behind evolution?

 

How much more simple can I be than the beginning? Inform what the belief is if I'm incorrect but I've learned from books and informative TV that some scientist claim it to be gases. Something had to exist before the bang to cause the bang. If it existed forever then it is infinite. Infinite is only a term that relates to the supernatural or mathematics. Mathematics being a law of nature.

 

Ad hominem: my age.

 

Everyone who can hear is not stupid.

 

I am not sure if dogs could bark before they became dogs, and also "dogs" did not stay with humans so their "lifestyle" has been changed for sure, but anyway... what do you want?  Compress millions of years in a few years?  It's like learning quantum mechanics in one night.  I am not a specialist in evolution theory, but since you make strong claims you should be pretty well educated in it.  What is your source(s)?  Scientific please. 

 

You have no clue what the entropy is.  Sorry. But it is okay.  Most people don't know it.  Briefly, the entropy is basically a measure of the number of ways to organize things.  The second law of thermodynamics says that any system, which is not in thermal equilibrium with environment or with another system, will tend to reach an equilibrium state with at which the entropy will reach its maximum.   If you like, you can think of this state as the state with the maximum number of possible choices for a system to be in.  My rough hand-waving application of this to evolution would be that given a certain number of ways to organize bio-materials, a planet will tend to maximize the diversity of species. 

Your question "what is energy behind evolution?" does not make sense because I am not sure that you understand your own question.   Please try to ask it again.  Use terms that you understand (try NOT to use energy, entropy, and evolution).

I snatched this from wiki...my

"Thermodynamic entropy is a non-conserved state function that is of great importance in the sciences of physics and chemistry.[4][5] Historically, the concept of entropy evolved in order to explain why some processes are spontaneous and others are not; systems tend to progress in the direction of increasing entropy.[6] Entropy is as such a function of a system's tendency towards spontaneous change.[6][7] For isolated systems, entropy never decreases.[5] This fact has several important consequences in science: first, it prohibits "perpetual motion" machines; and second, it suggests an arrow of time. Increases in entropy correspond to irreversible changes in a system, because some energy must be expended as waste heat, limiting the amount of work a system can do.[4][8][8][9][10][11]"

 

My statement(or question)....systems process toward entropy. Not away from it. Isolated systems never decrease. Energy stays within them. I see this as a pervasive law of the universe that evolution contradicts.

 

My apologies. I was operating on memory. It is the second law.


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KPO89 wrote:I answered your

KPO89 wrote:

I answered your wife's verses in sequential order above.

I'm not picking and choosing parts of the Bible. The Bible has always been picked and chosen hence the purpose of the canon. Its a series of texts written thousand and thousands of years ago. Misinterpretation is going to apply.

"Misinterpretation is going to apply"

The misinterpretation here is that you said you never read a part in the bible where he ordered the killing of woman and children. Then when presented with the evidence that you have not read the bible you crab walked out of it. Now you don't want to use the OT. Well no surprise there right.

You may want to get you research done then come back in a year or so. I don't think you a ready.

Please put all you rules out there: what bible you want us to use, what verses we are allowed to quote, which god do you want us to repute. ETC.....

Please we need these guide lines or this is going to get out of hand, and fast..

 

Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:

KPO89 wrote:

 I do believe people in Saudi Arabia have the choice to search out other religions other than the one they are born into. 

 

Ready to test your belief? Smiling

HOW do they know about YOUR Christ?   JUST HOW? Physically, how do people in say Iran, in a typical Iranian village can f&*^ng get your Bible?  TELL ME?  

 

All right.  Tell me how you think it is physically possible, or I will have to conclude you take your arguments out of blue.

 

This is a straw man argument.

All human's are built with an internal compass for truth. Who said you need the Bible to believe in God?


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jimmy.williamson wrote:KPO89

jimmy.williamson wrote:

KPO89 wrote:

I answered your wife's verses in sequential order above.

I'm not picking and choosing parts of the Bible. The Bible has always been picked and chosen hence the purpose of the canon. Its a series of texts written thousand and thousands of years ago. Misinterpretation is going to apply.

"Misinterpretation is going to apply"

The misinterpretation here is that you said you never read a part in the bible where he ordered the killing of woman and children. Then when presented with the evidence that you have not read the bible you crab walked out of it. Now you don't want to use the OT. Well no surprise there right.

You may want to get you research done then come back in a year or so. I don't think you a ready.

Please put all you rules out there: what bible you want us to use, what verses we are allowed to quote, which god do you want us to repute. ETC.....

Please we need these guide lines or this is going to get out of hand, and fast..

 

 

There are 27 books; 260 chapters; 7959 verses in the Bible. Am I to remember them all? Besides these verses do not mean what you claim them to mean. The original text did not have verses or dividers. You must read an entire book to understand the philosophy behind it. Not just pick and choose verses.

 

I personally use all translations of the Bible because there isn't a perfect one. My favorite is the NIV. You are allowed to quote any verse as long as it is in context with the philosophy of the book behind it. I can do the same thing:"Darwin says waste an hour of time" but the real quote is "“A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life." The words taken out of context mean two different things.


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KPO89 wrote: I snatched

KPO89 wrote:

 

I snatched this from wiki...my

"Thermodynamic entropy is a non-conserved state function that is of great importance in the sciences of physics and chemistry.[4][5] Historically, the concept of entropy evolved in order to explain why some processes are spontaneous and others are not; systems tend to progress in the direction of increasing entropy.[6] Entropy is as such a function of a system's tendency towards spontaneous change.[6][7] For isolated systems, entropy never decreases.[5] This fact has several important consequences in science: first, it prohibits "perpetual motion" machines; and second, it suggests an arrow of time. Increases in entropy correspond to irreversible changes in a system, because some energy must be expended as waste heat, limiting the amount of work a system can do.[4][8][8][9][10][11]"

 

My statement(or question)....systems process toward entropy. Not away from it. Isolated systems never decrease. Energy stays within them. I see this as a pervasive law of the universe that evolution contradicts.

 

My apologies. I was operating on memory. It is the second law.

 

Sorry, but wiki will not help you too much.  It will likely confuse you even more.    

a) systems do NOT "process toward entropy".  Systems have entropy, entropy is a parameter of any systems, like mass.  

b)  Free energy has a close relationship to the entropy.  Normally, when the entropy increases, the free energy decreases. 

c)  "I see this as a pervasive law of the universe that evolution contradicts."  Please describe what law of the universe contradict evolution.   In your previous half-sentences you neither described a law nor contradiction.  But read first, do not reply for a day or so.  Then make a new topic about some law of the universe and its contradiction to evolution and there we will discuss.

Have a good night.  

 

100%


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I have read the entire

I have read the entire chapters and the entire bible. I can tell you unless you read it with your Christian blinders on you could not have missed the verses. You don't want to except the verses because they don't fit you teaching. Now if you will please clear up the last one about raping. God condoned these rapes. You read the whole bible and it doesn't change that fact!

Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…


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KPO89

KPO89 wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:

KPO89 wrote:

 I do believe people in Saudi Arabia have the choice to search out other religions other than the one they are born into. 

 

Ready to test your belief? Smiling

HOW do they know about YOUR Christ?   JUST HOW? Physically, how do people in say Iran, in a typical Iranian village can f&*^ng get your Bible?  TELL ME?  

 

All right.  Tell me how you think it is physically possible, or I will have to conclude you take your arguments out of blue.

 

This is a straw man argument.

All human's are built with an internal compass for truth. Who said you need the Bible to believe in God?

 

A person should be at a certain degree of dumbness to believe that an "internal compass" will lead an Iranian villager to Jesus Christ.  Why don't you have an internal compass for Allah?   I think your internal compass and the belief of people in non-christain world in the only true deity could be a good separate topic.  I would suggest you post it in "Kill 'em with Kindness".

 

 


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KPO89 wrote:

KPO89 wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:

KPO89 wrote:

1. Missing Link: Is this part of the topic off limits? My main concern with evolution is it's inability to produce the basis of it's belief. If men, animals, plants, etc. evolved where are the middle "men".

2.Other problems I have with evolution: the pre-Big Bang gases(where did they come from?), no present evolution(why in the last 2000 years have we not seen positive mutation), positive mutation(have we ever witnessed a positive mutation that can be of use to person who has mutated?), The Big Bang(explosions destroy not create), evolutions adherence to the Laws of Thermodynamics which are basic laws of the universe(entropy)

Hey,

I piece of advice.  Start with something simple.  Not with "pre-Big Bang gases".  Do you know what gas is?  Do you know what is entropy, what is its relationship to statistical mechanics? etc. etc. etc. 

There are positive mutations in the last 2000 years, sure.  How about dogs, for example?  If you talk about humans, and if you want to talk at a more elaborate level, I am sure that there are some members here who understand in genetics and evolution theory.   I think it would be useful if you could clarify your preparation level.   So far, what you have stated here is a fountaining bullshit mainly.  Don't be fool, seriously, even at 21.

If you have a question about "the Laws of Thermodynamics" ask please.  And if you don't, please don't talk about something in which you have very little knowledge or understanding.  Especially, please do not pretend you know. 

100%

Well then inform me. Please don't call me stupid and leave it at that.

Dogs are still walking on four legs and barking. They've changed color and size but not features that affect their "lifestyle"

Entropy is the law that energy must continually imputed into a system or else the system fails. What is the energy behind evolution?

How much more simple can I be than the beginning? Inform what the belief is if I'm incorrect but I've learned from books and informative TV that some scientist claim it to be gases. Something had to exist before the bang to cause the bang. If it existed forever then it is infinite. Infinite is only a term that relates to the supernatural or mathematics. Mathematics being a law of nature.

Ad hominem: my age.

 

I'll try to address some of this.

I'm not a physicist, so I'm skipping the big bang stuff.  Other members of the forum either are physicists or are studying for their doctorate in physics.  If one of them has time, they may jump in.  100% knows his stuff, so listen to him.

Dogs - dogs are related to wolves, jackals, African painted dogs and coyotes.  They can all interbreed.  Except some dogs.  Chihuahuas can not mate with Great Danes.  Female Danes can not be "tied" by tiny little Chihuahuas and female Chihuahuas would be killed by a male Great Dane.  So domestic dogs now qualify as a ring species.  That is, Chihuahuas can mate with other small  and slightly larger dogs and Great Danes can mate with other large and slightly smaller dogs.  And so on, until in the middle, you have medium sized dogs mating with big dogs and small.  Also, dogs are the only known species where the focal point of the eye is markedly different depending on facial shape.  Pushed in faced bug eyed dogs have a central point focus like primates and so they have binocular vision.  Long faced slanted eyed dogs have a strip of focus, like a horse.  Greyhounds can focus in 270 degrees, clear around to the side of their heads.  So dogs have changed a lot since domesticated by humans 15,000 years ago.  They may still be able to interbreed with other canids, but they have evolved from the wild dog ancestor.

Energy and evolution.  Ecology scientists talk about tropic (energy) levels.  Grass is predated on (eaten by) antelopes which are predated on by leopards.  3 tropic levels.  In a pond, single cell creatures (amoeba, paramecium, etc) are predated on by insect larvae are predated on by fish are predated on by bears.  4 tropic levels.  Follow down to the lowest level to discover where the energy comes from - sunlight and heat from the earth's core.  Seriously, how can you ask where the energy comes from?  What do you think the sun is doing up there?  Heat.  A lot of heat.  And what is heat?  Energy.  And light.  Light is a particle and a wave.  And photons are the required energy for photosynthesis.

How many intermediate fossils do you need? 

http://humanorigins.si.edu/resources/multimedia/videos/video/evidence-human-origins

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Fossil_hominids.jpg

 

http://www.australianmuseum.net.au/Hominid-Skulls - lots of pictures

If you go to this website, this graphic is larger and easier to read.  It is all the places in the world human fossils have been found.  Fascinating.

http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/disp.html

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Welcome to the forums!KPO89

Welcome to the forums!

KPO89 wrote:

Entropy is the law that energy must continually imputed into a system or else the system fails. What is the energy behind evolution?

The "energy" for evolution would be the sun.

KPO89 wrote:

All human's are built with an internal compass for truth. Who said you need the Bible to believe in God?

Internal compass for truth... Why is that necessarily true?

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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KPO89

KPO89 wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:

I'm not trying to be mean to you or anything so don't take this the wrong way. I suspect you are bluffing about reading the bible cover to cover. Had you read it you would more than likely remember these parts.

 Leviticus 26:27-35 cannibalism

Leviticus 26:21-32 killing children of sinners

Exodus 31:12-15 killing people for working on sabbath

Zechariah 14:1-2 god assists rape and plunder

Deuteronomy 3:1-7 murder,pillage and plunder

And last but not least because this one really pissed me off Judges 21:10-24 rape to force marriage on wen and murder

 

Again, I'm not insulting any of your intelligence but you should probably read it again

 

Leviticus is God chastening his children. He did not commit these acts. He is prescribing fear to keep them in line. Much like a 2 year old gets from his parents. A threatened consequence. Most theologians I know don't take these passages literally. Hyperbole is capable by God as well. A metaphor for the destruction that would come upon them if they did not follow God.

Exodus: Yes God did command that. It was His Law. Which is now abolished. If He created us He has the right to make those laws. Much like parents do with their children.

Zechariah: I'm not a Theologian but my understanding is that Zechariah is a prophetic statement of the New Jerusalem. In verses 3 and 4 it says the Lord will come and be the savior of Israel. He gathers the nations against Israel to prove his power...then casts them down. Verse 3"then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations" This is speaking of things that have not yet happened yet.

Deutoronomy: The Lord delivered these cities to the Israelites. Military conquest. To understand this you must have a full understanding of the lineage of Israel and their promised land. Many years before this they had their land stolen from them. They were taking back what the conquerors had once stolen from them. This was justification for the sins of those people in putting the Children of Israel into slavery.

 

Interesting. Can I ask a few questions (some grist for the mill)?

1. How exactly is the rapist being chastised by marrying his victim? How does that cause fear in the rapist?

2. Hyperbole? So God was making idle threats? That's pretty poor parenting isn't it? I was always told that if you said to a child, "If you do that again, I'll spank you" and they do it again - the spanking better come. It's called keeping your word - don't keep your word, people won't pay attention.

3. Or the passages in Zechariah could be more hyperbole from God (you said he's fond of it). No offense, but this seems to happen a lot with Bible prophecies - if it doesn't happen to the people it's supposed to happen to at the time it's supposed to happen. someone will come along and "save" God by reinterpreting the prophecy to be apocalyptic.

4. The Law in Exodus is abolished? Really/ No more Ten Commandments? Shame, some of those are still pretty useful. By disavowing them, you make me feel less safe around you.

5. I am aware you believe the Bible to be an historical document but:

Why is it that these military conquests described in the Bible have no archaeology behind them?

Why were the Babylonians making beer and the Egyptians building pyramids at a time where the Bible claims they should have been drowning?

Why go through all the mental gymnastics to prove the Bible historically and scientifically accurate?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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 KPO89 wrote:I answered

 

KPO89 wrote:

I answered your wife's verses in sequential order above.

I'm not picking and choosing parts of the Bible. The Bible has always been picked and chosen hence the purpose of the canon. Its a series of texts written thousand and thousands of years ago. Misinterpretation is going to apply.

 

As far as I'm concerned it's pretty simple, if you read from Gen 1:1 on, and by Deuteronomy you aren't truly disturbed, then you are a disturbing person.  

  It's crazy right off the bat.  I mean  this god clearly says he'll greatly increase the pain of childbirth to "woman" meaning all women, because?????  He was pissed at eve?  Or because the book was written by a bunch of shauvanistic ancient turd burgelers, neither are good. 

Gen 3:16

"To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

 

It just get's worse and worse as you read on, it's really preposterous to think any of this came from a loving,  inteligent and wise entity.  Surely someone the like would have done a far better job, this is terrible work.  I'm the first to admit there are some beautiful passages in the bible, but these are found in many man made books, as for the bible for every reasonable piece of wisdom it tells, 10 absolutely rediculous things are commanded.  For every story that seems so hold some moral truth, their are 10 immoral and upsurd stories, some truly sick. It simply won't do as representation of some unimagenably wise being, his work should be unimagenably wise, not so obviously flawed.

 


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For me KPO, it's always been

For me KPO, it's always been the little things.  All these little snapshots of this yahweh personality, I find them truly pathetic and disturbing, just strange the hole thing.    (1)-First off it seems quite obvious he thinks less of women than men, this is clear in your holy book.  Strange for an all wise entity don't you think. (2)- He is absolutely OBSESSED with sex.  I mean it is really rediculous looking at it from your standpoint that these are the things he cares about.  Of course it is perfectly understandable from a human perspective why the god they created is obsessed with sex, because they were obsessed with sex ofcourse, but to think this is what this all wise-guy in the sky worries about all day, rediculous.  (3)-Third your yahweh is cleary into death, the smell of burnt flesh, animal sacrifice, this type of stuff.  WHY???  This is the kinda stuff serial killers do when they were kids.  Why is your god so into physical death, burnt flesh, burning living things. WHY??? hmmmm... (4)-Yahweh is needy and narcissistic.  He needs our worship, he needs us to sing him songs OR ELSE.  This is not what you would expect of an all loving character.  No good mother or father would tell there child: "Be home by 10 or else I will BURN YOU," or "If you get pregnant before marriage I will STONE YOU" and so on.  And, follow up on these threats, I mean actually go through with the burning and stoning.  It's simple KPO, the god character depicted in your bible has at best a creepy split personality.  On 1 side he seems to care but the other has the potential to burn you alive for the something as small as working on sunday, and the burning side seems to win more often than not when it comes to the decision making.  Your god SUCKS.  He is the equivalent of a 6 year old phycho child burning puppies and getting off on it, and then crying after because he misses the puppies. 

 

 

 


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KPO89

KPO89 wrote:

100percentAtheist wrote:

KPO89 wrote:

 I do believe people in Saudi Arabia have the choice to search out other religions other than the one they are born into. 

 

Ready to test your belief? Smiling

HOW do they know about YOUR Christ?   JUST HOW? Physically, how do people in say Iran, in a typical Iranian village can f&*^ng get your Bible?  TELL ME?  

 

All right.  Tell me how you think it is physically possible, or I will have to conclude you take your arguments out of blue.

 

This is a straw man argument.

All human's are built with an internal compass for truth. Who said you need the Bible to believe in God?

Welcome!  If any of this stuff stands out as being of interest to you, don't be afraid to start separate threads.  I know it can be a pain to have a million people shouting at you about a variety of topics.

 

I'd be impressed by this argument if anyone had ever found belief in the Abrahamic God in a vacuum.  I've never heard any reputable source even claim such an event.  No-one has ever found a remote tribe in a far away Jungle that had Abrahamic morality.  Were your statement true, I would imagine you would find such a thing regularly.  I've yet to see a theist adequately explain why specific religions are tied so closely to geographic locations.

I'd be even more impressed if that 'internal moral compass' was consistent throughout time and circumstance, but it isn't.  See slavery, women's rights, use of violence and sexual morality as three obvious problems to internal moral truth in regards to theism.

I would also be impressed if you could show any objective evidence for why your beliefs are true, but another theists beliefs are false.  I've not been able to think of (or had any theist on this forum provide) any metric for their exclusive personal belief system that did not equally support another exclusive belief system.  You can't all be right when you all claim your systems are capital "T" objective Truth.  I find it more likely that you are all wrong, since you all use the same thought processes to justify and explain your contradictory beliefs.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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KPO89 wrote:natural

KPO89 wrote:

natural wrote:

Welcome, KPO89!

 

Awesome, you sound like you'll probably enjoy yourself here. I'll just mention a few basic arguments since you asked.

Basic argument for disbelief: There are no good reasons to believe that any religious claims are true. Of course, there are 'reasons' (like, "I believe because it makes me feel good" ), there just aren't any *good* reasons. A good reason would involve some sort of independently verifiable evidence. So far, I have never seen or heard of any. Hence, I do not believe.

Another argument: 'Faith' is an inherently bad reason for believing anything. Two people can believe two diametrically opposite things, and both believe them by 'faith'. Neither person can convince the other that they are correct, and adding 'more faith' to the situation only makes their disagreement *stronger*. Faith is divisive and the source of incredible amounts of real, life-and-death conflict in the world. Not only is faith a bad reason for believing anything, it's a dangerous thing in itself.

In contrast, evidence is an inherently good reason to believe whatever the evidence supports. Two people with poor evidence can believe diametrically opposite things, but if you add 'more evidence' to the situation, eventually one idea or the other (or neither) will be shown to be supported by the evidence, and the two people will eventually reach agreement. Evidence reduces conflict, while faith increases conflict. Nobody ever killed anyone over whether Einstein's Relativity or Quantum Mechanics were true or not, they just followed the evidence.

So, you've had whatever religious/spiritual experiences you've had, and you retain your culturally inherited belief in a god. Whereas someone in India has had their own religious/spiritual experiences and believes in Vishnu. How do you know you're right and the Hindu is wrong? Could you convince the Hindu that he's wrong and you're right? Do you have any good evidence to support your beliefs?

Some ideas to ponder.

 

Again I would go back to the this: can you show me evidence that the metaphysical world does not exist? It seems to be more of an issue of whether something beyond our physical reality exists than whether God or Muhammed or Peter Pan exists.

You're not exactly addressing the points I raised.

The point is, why do *you* believe, and what evidence do *you* have? For example, that a 'metaphysical' world exists outside of the physical world.

It is not up to me to provide evidence *against* your belief. It is up to you to provide evidence *for* your belief.

You must understand that the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim that something is true. I am not making any claims. I'm only expressing my doubts in *your* claims. You have the burden of proof to support your claim that a 'metaphysical' realm exists, or that god exists, or that the gospel stories are historically accurate.

Please re-read my post and try honestly to answer the questions and points I raised.

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KPO89 wrote:For me I do

KPO89 wrote:

For me I do believe that to be evidence (that He rose from the dead) but to believe that you must believe the historical account of it in the Bible. Do you?

I don't. I would recommend reading Bart Ehrman's 'Misquoting Jesus' for a good understanding of how the gospel stories were written (hint: they weren't written by the characters Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.) and how they are mutually incompatible stories if you read them side-by -side. Try it. Get out a couple of Bibles and try reading the gospel stories side by side. Check out all the places where they contradict each other. For example, how many women went to the tomb? Did they meet a young man or an angel? Was the stone rolled aside or not? There are hundreds of contradictions between the stories. They cannot be seen as historical, especially considering that they were written long long after the supposed events took place. The gospels are clearly mythological in nature, written by competing religious sects who each had their own ideas which they tried to push by writing different versions of the same basic story with different emphasis and different doctrinal messages.

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As utterly circular as a question can be, I ask you "Why not?" To be honest it makes sense to me. I look at a tree and I think that has to be designed by something or someone. I can't grasp how an explosion that came from gases created matter. I know the argument of probability but It seems by now we would have discovered how something like that could happen.

This is a logical fallacy known as the Argument from Incredulity: "I don't understand how it could happen, therefore it didn't happen." Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it false.

Besides, I can guarantee that you don't really understand the arguments. For example, physicists *have* discovered how the universe came to have the complexity it has today. Yet you claim we don't have any understanding of it. You're only trumpeting your own lack of knowledge in this area.

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I can't for the life of me understand evolution. I've tried.

Try harder. Here's a good place to start: http://www.talkorigins.org/. Or if you like books, try 'Why Evolution is True' by Coyne or 'The Greatest Show on Earth' by Dawkins.

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I don't understand how there is still evolution after all these years without a missing link.

I don't think you've really tried to understand evolution if you're asking about 'missing links'. It sounds to me like you've only read or heard from non-scientific sources or worse, from creationist sources which deliberately mislead the public with such claims as 'they've never found the missing link.'

Again, go to Talk Origins. They have answers to all the questions and objections you'll have.

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I just can't believe that life and all the complexities involved in it are the result of random chance.

It's not. It's the result of evolution by natural selection, which is non-random.

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It's a very simple argument and I can understand you labeling me as a simpleton for it but I don't know how else to communicate it.

Not understanding is fine. It's when people aren't willing to listen, and aren't willing to learn, that's when I start to lose respect for them. Not understanding is an easy problem to fix. Just read and learn and eventually you'll understand. But if you're closed-minded and not willing to consider the possibility that you could be wrong, that's what would bother me.

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To me, the Bible seems to be pretty clear in most parts. I've read the contradictions but I see it as our inability to translate or understand the culture of the time period it was written in.

Like when Jesus (supposedly God) explains how slave owners should treat their slaves, instead of rebuking the whole concept of slavery? Seems pretty simple to me. Jesus was never God. The people who wrote the gospels were not inspired by an all-loving god. If they were, they never would have condoned slavery.

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Other religions seem to be full of much more unbelievable ideology, ideology that goes against the nature of mankind and the world.

Then why do you suppose billions of people believe in those religions? Do you think it could be that they grew up in a culture where these religions were dominant, and they just went along with everyone else and believed what everyone else (including their parents) believed? Do you think that they don't look at the Bible and think that it's full of "much more unbelievable ideology, ideology that goes against the nature of mankind and the world"? Are you somehow special in seeing the absurdity of their religion, but when they see the absurdity of your religion, they've got it all wrong?

Could you convince a Hindu that his belief in Vishnu is mistaken? How would you do that? What evidence or argument would you use?

The fact is, you grew up surrounded by Christians, and the only reason you're Christian is because you picked it up from the culture around you. If you had been born in India, you'd be a Hindu instead. There is no truth in religion, it's just tradition and dogma.

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That is why I have chosen to place my faith in the Bible and Jesus Christ. Christianity is a broad topic that deals more with the works of men than of God. This is my position.

I'm curious. You stated that you were once an atheist (or perhaps agnostic), and then went back to Christianity. 1) What rational reasons did you have for disbelieving in God? and 2) What rational reasons did you have for starting to re-believe in God again (in other words, how did you overcome your previous rational reasons for disbelief)?

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I don't have enough free

I don't have enough free time to engage in the conversation right now, but welcome to the forum.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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What you perceive as being

What you perceive as being construed as random is not.  Evolution is at least as deterministic as gravity, if not more so- Evolution is not "random".  You'll find scientists arguing with each-other about this- but not one arguing about whether or not evolution is valid.

 

All of your questions on evolution are answered here:  http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

 

If you can find a question that isn't answered there, then I'll be happy to answer it personally if nobody else can.

 

 

For the record, evolution is also far better understood than gravity (Gravity- which only a few people in the world are close to understanding).  In all seriousness, I advise you to question gravity long before you consider questioning evolution; you'll get more respect that way.  Evolution is not up for debate- gravity very much still is (not that things fall, but *why* they fall).

Instead of telling us things you think are espoused about evolution- because every single thing you have said is entirely false, including about how trees work- you should read up on the facts of the matter.  You are entirely wrong about evolution- but more importantly, you're wrong about gravity, because you completely ignored it, and it should have been the very first thing you brought up with regards to any understanding of the scientific and philosophical underpinnings of the universe.

Read up on gravity, then come back and make some similar claims and you will get a little more consideration- you might even be able to ask some difficult questions and make some people think.

 

To understand why I tell you this, consider this:  If gravity or the other fundamental forces do not require a deity, then nothing else does- all other emergent 'forces' (diffusion, entropy, evolution) come from those forces.  If gravity or another fundamental force requires a deity, then everything does- all other forces coming from those.

You're fighting the wrong fight.

 

Evolution is fact and does not require a god, but evolution relies on gravity.

Evolution is very well understood and proven, and there are no problems with it- gravity is generally poorly understood, no single theory proven, and we know the current models have problems.

If gravity requires a god, then because evolution requires gravity, then evolution must require a god.  That would still mean that evolution is technically true, but that it was caused by a god deliberately using gravity (e.g. how a god created).

 

To summarize:

You're attacking the strongest, most evidenced, and most thoroughly proven fact in human history- evolution- and you're ignoring the weakest theories, which are highly debated, and have proven problems that are well known and puzzled over by scientists- those theories of gravity.  If evolution relies on gravity, why are you trying to disprove evolution, instead of asking tough questions about gravity and suggesting that gravity requires a god in order to function?

 

 

As I've said, with regards to evolution, you can just read this:  http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

If you have any questions that aren't answered there, we'll be happy to answer them.  Once you finish reading about evolution, though, you can accept it and move on to something that hasn't been beaten to death (those same questions have been asked- and answered- about evolution for a century)- you can move on to a much more interesting conversation, and you can ask *new* questions that nobody has heard before.

 

 

Talk about gravity rather than about evolution- you'll find it a much more vibrant topic, and so will those with whom you converse.

 

 

 

In regards to the big bang: Forget gases (there were none "prior", which is not a time; they formed during the event), and forget energy- life, matter, everything, is all about information in one form or another.  This event ["the"/"a" big bang] represents only *subjective* information genesis.  Seen through an objective Many-World interpretation (which is the only one consistent with overwhelming evidence and one of few consistent with reason itself independent of empiricism), genesis is purely subjective, and there has never been any objective break in symmetry or creation of information.

To summarize it as simply as possible:  Standing inside the universe, from your perspective, it looks like there is a great deal of "stuffness".  From a hypothetical (but impossible) view outside of the universe, all of the different configurations of positive and negative "stuffness" cancel out, and there is no "stuffness" at all.

So, imagine you're looking at a big zero.  You are "outside" the universe, looking at it; and it's just a big zero- nothing.  However, if you go inside that zero, you can see everything it's made of: 0 = 1 + -1 + 2 + -2 etc.  So, from inside at any given location- lets say 42- that's all you can see.  For all the world, it looks like everything is 42, and you just can't imagine how this could come from nothing.  You'd be right: 42 can not come from nothing, and it didn't come from nothing- it's *part of* nothing.  Because all you can see from that perspective is 42, you don't realize that there's also -42, and every other number, all adding up to zero.

If you are familiar with mathematics and particularly digital information, I can explain it using a better analogy.


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Another one come and gone?

Another one come and gone?


cj
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rebecca.williamson

rebecca.williamson wrote:

Another one come and gone?

 

Probably overwhelmed.  "Fresh meat!!"

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


rebecca.williamson
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cj wrote:rebecca.williamson

cj wrote:

rebecca.williamson wrote:

Another one come and gone?

 

Probably overwhelmed.  "Fresh meat!!"

 

Ha yeah. That or he needed to go study that bible some more.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.


NoMoreCrazyPeople
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rebecca.williamson

rebecca.williamson wrote:

 That or he needed to go study that bible some more.

I hope he actually does, probably won't.


KPO89
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Oh I'm still lurking Just

Oh I'm still lurking Smiling Just have been extremely busy lately. And yes I've been reading the Bible... there isn't much of a way for this argument to end so I'm just gonna bow out. Its impossible for me to answer everyone completely which would make the quality of my argument very weak.


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KPO89 wrote: And yes I've

KPO89 wrote:

 And yes I've been reading the Bible... there isn't much of a way for this argument to end

Their are many ways it could end.

KPO89 wrote:

 so I'm just gonna bow out.

Typical

KPO89 wrote:

Its impossible for me to answer everyone completely which would make the quality of my argument very weak.

You should atleast try.  Or only awnser the people/questions you find will produce the best discussions.  You should atleast try, say something.  Bowing out doesn't do much for helping your position, does it.