Termination of Pregnancy (Abortion)

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Termination of Pregnancy (Abortion)

Hello To All

This is my first post. I am not sure where to post this so I apologise in advance for any error on my part.

 

 

I am training to be a doctor.

I am an atheist. A "strong" atheist.

I am also strongly against Termination of Pregnancy/Abortion (referred to as ToP henceforth)

 

My definition of pregnancy is from the point of implantation. This isn't a rigid definition & I would be keen to hear some others.

I do believe in contraception & emergency contraception prior to implantation.

My feelings on such matters are well defined but by no means complete.

 

There are few instances in which I believe ToP is acceptable. These instances are subject to change as my knowledge changes but include;

1) To protect the life of the mother

2) Where the child will be born with such profound suffering that it would be cruel to perpetuate the baby's life (hugely subjective in itself but I can define further if need be)

 

There are also common reasons for ToP that I refute;

1) Conception was not consensual eg Rape

2) It is an individual's choice what happens to their body

3) The child will be born into an unloving, grim reality/life

4) To protect the mental health of the mother

5) To protect the physical health of siblings & other family members

 

The reason for this post is that I wish  to get some feed back on my opinions before I start professional practise.

So my question is; What are your views & what do you think about my opinions?


Atheistextremist
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Hi Keiran

 

You say you are strongly against termination - why is this? Do you think pretty much all conceptions should go to term regardless of the feelings of the parents? Readiness to raise a family and that sort of thing?

Personally, I am pro-choice. I'm a bloke and it's not really my place to start insisting women do this or that with their bodies or lives to fit into my moral envelope. Did you have a religious upbringing? Why the firm position on this?

I'm not sure your statement that your feelings are well defined but by no means complete rings true to me. Your feelings sound complete and you are in the ring inviting all comers. That's interesting, isn't it.

Are you really a strong atheist or are you a moral Q ship?

Could you define for us the sort of disability that merits a 'pass mark' in terms of your acceptance of termination?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I am a strong atheist, I

I am a strong atheist, I refute all religions on all levels. I even believe many aspects of religion to be immoral (likewise many aspects of atheism can be immoral). My upbringing was atheist although not actively atheist. I was always allowed to make my own decisions.

Ultimately I believe it is better to have a life than to not have a life (the exception being what I stated above)

Yes I believe all pregnancies should go to term, even against the will of the mother. In the case of a child conceived due to rape or failed contraception it is my belief that giving the child up for adoption is the lesser evil. Like I said an unhappy life is better than no life (I concede that this in my opinion)

I can not accept that a person can place what happens to their body above the life of another individual (even if that life is dependent on their body for survival). An analogy would be the patient on an Intensive Care Unit dependent on dialysis or mechanical ventilation. To terminate their life would be inconceivable. What we do is aim to re-establish their independence. Yes a foetus is dependent on the mother for life but I don't see how that gives anybody the right to terminate their life, just like it will never be my right to terminate the life of the patient in the ICU.

The disabilities that I believe would make ToP acceptable are many. I couldn't possibly name them all. But examples include; Inborn errors of metabolism that are incompatible with life & result in death during infancy, congenital disease resulting in profound mental incapacity & the loss of recognition of self, a disease process that can result in severe disabling pain that can not be reversed, anatomical disease that is incompatible with life.

Some pathologies for which ToP is routinely offered that I disagree with are as follows; Down Syndrome, Turners Syndrome, Karyotype Errors etc

Diseases I am unsure about; Cystic FIbrosis, Phenylketonuria (Can be managed but inflict substantial suffering)

 


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kierantitheridge wrote:I am

kierantitheridge wrote:

I am a strong atheist, I refute all religions on all levels. I even believe many aspects of religion to be immoral (likewise many aspects of atheism can be immoral). My upbringing was atheist although not actively atheist. I was always allowed to make my own decisions.

 

Wow, sorry if I am wrong, but this sounds like .... someone who has no clue of what atheism is.

BTW, what do YOU mean by atheism?

"Aspects" of atheism CAN NOT BE IMMORAL by definition of what atheism is.

And I would never say that I refute all religions on all levels, this does not seem to be possible or wise.

 

Regarding abortion issue, it would be great if you can clarify your position on a few more issues:

1)  If triple test comes out really bad, and the follow up screening confirms it, would you recommend to terminate pregnancy?

2) What do you specifically mean by saying that you "refute" rape as a pre-condition for abortion?

 

Thanks.

 

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For the rape cause, it's

For the rape cause, it's very easy to state what you have stated, your not the one that has to deal with the emotional/psychological impact that has on a female. Why should any male really have a say in the case of rape to deny an abortion to a female  that wants to terminate it, is beyond me, can you give me a logical reason beyond the reason you have given? Life is better than no life is really not a logical reason, 6.5 billion humans we are fine in the size of population. So your opinion so far isn't really a logical opinion because you don't have to deal with the emotional/psychological consequences of a rape or the pregnancy due to rape.

As for the rest of your reasons, well medical reasons are always a good reason to terminate the pregnancy, as a usage as a contraceptive.......ummm i do believe (someone can correct me on this) it's really far more rare than Pro-lifers would want you to believe, although I agree this isn't really a good idea, however there are other methods, condoms, the pill, don't have sex, plan B. But the rape one.....your logic makes no sense to me.


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kierantitheridge wrote:Yes I

kierantitheridge wrote:

Yes I believe all pregnancies should go to term, even against the will of the mother. In the case of a child conceived due to rape or failed contraception it is my belief that giving the child up for adoption is the lesser evil. Like I said an unhappy life is better than no life (I concede that this in my opinion)

I can not accept that a person can place what happens to their body above the life of another individual (even if that life is dependent on their body for survival). An analogy would be the patient on an Intensive Care Unit dependent on dialysis or mechanical ventilation. To terminate their life would be inconceivable. What we do is aim to re-establish their independence. Yes a foetus is dependent on the mother for life but I don't see how that gives anybody the right to terminate their life, just like it will never be my right to terminate the life of the patient in the ICU.

The disabilities that I believe would make ToP acceptable are many. I couldn't possibly name them all. But examples include; Inborn errors of metabolism that are incompatible with life & result in death during infancy, congenital disease resulting in profound mental incapacity & the loss of recognition of self, a disease process that can result in severe disabling pain that can not be reversed, anatomical disease that is incompatible with life.

Some pathologies for which ToP is routinely offered that I disagree with are as follows; Down Syndrome, Turners Syndrome, Karyotype Errors etc

Diseases I am unsure about; Cystic FIbrosis, Phenylketonuria (Can be managed but inflict substantial suffering)

 

 

Hey,

Don't you realize that you are playing god here?

Spina bifida can very well be either "incompatible with life" or a quite minor birth defect.  How are you going to draw a line?

By stating that embryos are "individuals", you sound like you are not really going to be a doctor... or not an atheist at all. 

 

Nobody likes to have an abortion.  It is not healthy for a woman after all.  But you know, a child with a Down syndrome ... he is NOT a "little angel"; he or she will need intense special care for his/her entire life, and may often not even realize he/she is alive.   The psychological and financial trauma may very likely prevent the mother from having more (healthy) children in the future.  So, by your aesthetic b.s. you are ready to ruin several lives, none of which is yours.

 

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Sorry what I meant is that

Sorry what I meant is that atheists can be immoral, not that atheism itself is immoral.

I refute any belief system, organisation, group or person that believes in a God/higher power. I do not know of, nor do I have an in depth knowledge of every religion that has ever existed. I do however refute them all because I do not believe that the existence of any divine being is possible.

I define atheism specifically as the absence of a divine being & broadly as not believing in religion.

I started this thread as a discussion on ToP. I didn't mean to get in to a discussion on atheism.

By triple test I assume you mean the AFP, Unconjugated Oestriol & bHCG commonly used as a screening tool for Down Syndrome and other congenital abnormalities? Ultimately I would need to know what exactly was happening. If Amniocentesis reported that it was Down's syndrome then I don't agree with ToP. If it was a neural tube defect then I might support ToP (depends on severity).  Thank you for bringing this to my attention because it raises the point of how screening could influence my opinion.

As for rape I mean it is not uncommon for a pregnancy to be terminated when it resulted from rape. For me this is not a good enough reason for ToP. As I said I believe giving the child up for adoption is a more humane option. Alternatively emergency contraception prior to implantation (Roughly 5-7 days I think) based on my definition of pregnancy is also an option I am ok with. I by no means what to detract from the horrific experience that rape is. I just don't believe in punishing an unborn child because of it.


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 OK, one more question.If a

 OK, one more question.

If a woman does not want to keep a child after unwanted pregnancy, what would be your position on that church will take care of the child?

 

Thanks.

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kierantitheridge wrote:As

kierantitheridge wrote:

As for rape I mean it is not uncommon for a pregnancy to be terminated when it resulted from rape. For me this is not a good enough reason for ToP. 

 

But you are NOT the one who got pregnant!!!  

Am I missing something? Smiling

 


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I would have to accept the

I would have to accept the Church raising the child. Although I would not like it.

I can't really keep up with what appears to be ire for my opinions so I will quickly try to respond to some of the above comments.

I have never been raped, likewise I have never had cancer, been in an accident or experienced any real significant life trauma. However on a daily basis I help people that have. I don't impose my opinions on them I do everything I can to help them. Just because I have not or can not experience something does not mean that I am unqualified to comment on it. I do however realise that my view can be limited because I have not experienced such events. I strive to find a balance.

I realise that not all life is precious or that every embryo will grow up into a "little angel". I am not naive. However that still is not a reason for ToP.

To latincanuck I agree with you, emergency contraception appeals to my sense of morality. As for qualifying my logic? I am putting a life before someone's grief. A bold choice admittedly but one which I think is acceptable. Yes this may exarcabate the victims grief but in my eyes that still isn't a good enough reason to terminate a life.


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Apart from some symbolic

Apart from some symbolic sense, there really is nothing magical about the moment of implantation. As the bunch of cells progressive acquires more aspects of a human being, it is justifiable to give more weight to its status as a new life. Setting the magic line is again a very subjective exercise, and will be debated , and, I believe, always should be.

It is a purely personal and subjective judgement that "it is better to have a life than to not have a life" that should not be imposed on others.

It has no logical or ethical justification - there really is no basis for comparing the two options in any real sense. The best you can do is assess the likelihood of a individual having a broadly positive life experience, including their effect on other's life experience. You have actually done this of course, but way too tightly restricted your focus on severe physical disabilities. Obviously, because of the wide uncertainties involved, it should be left to the people most directly involved, starting with the potential parents.

 

 

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hard to know where to start

So I'll start with a brief history of me.  I am female, 59 years old, menopausal, and had my tubes tied at age 27.

Reproductive history:

1. First child at age 17, put up for adoption.  At the time, I swore I would never, ever put another child up for adoption ever again, it didn't matter what the circumstances would be.  I can not explain to you or anyone else my exact reasons for this decision.  Most of them were purely emotional and therefore far from rational or even reasonable.  All I remember is signing the papers was one of the worse days of my life.

2. Second child at age 19, kept and raised the child.  I was unwed at the time.

3. Third pregnancy at age 20, terminated.  Had an abortion.  Abortion was only legal at the time in New York and California.  I drove 6 hours to a clinic in LA then drove myself home.  I have no regrets or lingering depression and would have another abortion if the circumstances were identical.

4. Fourth pregnancy.  Married, child had some physical problems.

5. Fifth pregnancy.  Married, child had some developmental problems.

My only conclusion from this history is that I was a stupid screw around when I was young.  My only excuse is that when I was young, at least prior to 1972, it was ILLEGAL in the state of Arizona for a doctor to discuss let alone prescribe birth control to an unmarried woman.  Didn't matter if you were 14 or 50.  So I didn't even have the facts for how to calculate the rhythm method which was the only birth control available to me.

What I think of your position:

Adoption is not easy or simple.  If your baby is not white, perfect in form and intellect, and both parents college educated, the chance of being adopted at birth is next to nil.  Yes, there are self-sacrificing people willing to adopt a child with special needs - birth defects, non-white, drug addiction at birth and so on.  They are not easy to find.  So the child will probably go directly into a foster home, a burden for the tax payers and prone to various emotional disorders.  This does not address the emotional distress of the mother which is non-trivial in my view.

Rape.  In your picture, you look awful young.  I excuse you for being young and inexperienced.  Though I can't help but tell you, that is the coldest most uncaring position on rape I have ever heard.  Do I care about the potential infant?  There are millions more out there who are not getting the care they need, why add to the misery?  Maybe after you have seen or treated a few women who were half beaten to death by the rapist, you will come to realize the problem involves more than one potential person.

If you are a ob-gyn, abortions are in your job description.  Other specialties may also have abortion as a part of the practice.  If you did specialize in one of these, why did you specialize in that if you don't want to do the job?  If you are in a specialty where you may - perhaps - refer someone to a clinic that does abortions, is this a big deal for you?

It is similar to pharmacists who don't want to put up a prescription for the morning after pill or even for general birth control.  Or an engineer who goes to work for a defense contractor and then refuses to make weapons.  You took the job, now do it.  Otherwise, go do something else.  The engineer would be fired.  The physician or pharmacist should be as well.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj
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hard to know where to start

dp


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@ BobConcerning

@ Bob

Concerning Implantation, I totally agree. At what point we define the existence of life is hugely complicated. Whether to take, consciousness, autonomy or some biological landmark is a very difficult decision to make. As I said that is my definition and is not a rigid one. It is based mostly on the likelihood of the pregnancy coming to term. You're right it should always be debated. I have held a 28 week old baby in my arms and was astonished at how well developed it was. From then on I made it my business to understand better embryology & development.

I never impose my opinions on anyone. Although I have largely upset people with my "contrarian" opinions I never intend to become an obstetrician or gynaecologist & therefore will never perform Surgical or Medical Terminations. It is likely that I may have to refer someone for one though. This poses a huge dilemma for me.

 

 

 


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kierantitheridge wrote:@

kierantitheridge wrote:

@ Bob

Concerning Implantation, I totally agree. At what point we define the existence of life is hugely complicated. Whether to take, consciousness, autonomy or some biological landmark is a very difficult decision to make. As I said that is my definition and is not a rigid one. It is based mostly on the likelihood of the pregnancy coming to term. You're right it should always be debated. I have held a 28 week old baby in my arms and was astonished at how well developed it was. From then on I made it my business to understand better embryology & development.

I never impose my opinions on anyone. Although I have largely upset people with my "contrarian" opinions I never intend to become an obstetrician or gynaecologist & therefore will never perform Surgical or Medical Terminations. It is likely that I may have to refer someone for one though. This poses a huge dilemma for me.

 

A reasonable response, you have to ultimately make your own decision.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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@ Cj Sorry for appearing

@ Cj

 

Sorry for appearing cold. Sometimes my logical approach gives this impression. Like I said I do not consider rape, abortion or any such topic to be trivial. I understand the consequences. Before moving into medicine I worked for 2yrs in Forensic Psychiatry dealing largely with women who had been sexually abused as children. What impressed upon me the most about these women as much as they self harmed and/or attempted suicide when directly questioned they admitted they did not wish to take their lives but rather wished to be free of the emotional turmoil. This has always stuck with me. I believe that if you were take say an orphan, who was unloved, had what we consider to be a negative life experience, if you asked him whether he wished to live or die, I believe he would choose to live. This is somewhat of the basis of my opinion. If you believe that giving a child up for adoption is condemning them to a "poor" life, perhaps it is. Can we say that someone would rather have no life than a poor life? Should we put the mother's convalescence above this? I am not dismissing mum, she will never be free of such an experience, she may in time accept it.

I suppose I am fighting for the baby. Perhaps you believe I am ignoring mum. I am not. I don't take this lightly.

Concerning specialties. In the UK you have to have a "taster" of each. I have done 8 weeks in OBGYN. By no means comprehensive. I will have to refer, I will never actually have to perform such procedures. I will always put professionalism first.


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Current self sufficient

Current self sufficient being > potential self sufficient being.

Sounds made up...
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I still maintain "poor life"

I still maintain "poor life" vs "no life" is a false dichotomy. Even if everyone asked if they would rather keep living than not to have lived at all answered yes, that is meaningless, IMHO. They already have experience, which probably includes at least some positive aspects.

They are comparing their experience of life with a total absence of any experience at all.

Most people, if not all, will likely say yes, because it is hard not to identify non-existence with death, in some way, and that has strong negative associations, for obvious reasons.

I myself would say yes, I would prefer to have existed, since I have had more than enough positive experiences, and expect to continue to have enough to want to continue, altho there have periods of stress where I have wondered. 

But when I think further about it, I am really reacting to the concept of ceasing to exist from this point on, which is not really what we are talking about. Such responses from a living person are inevitably answered in the context of an actual life experience.

An early stage fetus has not really begun to live, as a conscious being.

I hope you appreciate these are my honest thoughts on this somewhat tricky matter.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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I would add that the "poor

I would add that the "poor life " is still better than "no life" position is also effectively an argument against any form of birth control, even voluntary abstinence.

Which is totally out of the question with our finite planetary resources. It would imply a starving world of 20 billion is preferable to a world of 5 billion or less with a far higher quality of life, which I emphatically reject.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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kierantitheridge wrote: @ Cj

kierantitheridge wrote:

@ Cj

 

Sorry for appearing cold. Sometimes my logical approach gives this impression. Like I said I do not consider rape, abortion or any such topic to be trivial. I understand the consequences. Before moving into medicine I worked for 2yrs in Forensic Psychiatry dealing largely with women who had been sexually abused as children. What impressed upon me the most about these women as much as they self harmed and/or attempted suicide when directly questioned they admitted they did not wish to take their lives but rather wished to be free of the emotional turmoil. This has always stuck with me. I believe that if you were take say an orphan, who was unloved, had what we consider to be a negative life experience, if you asked him whether he wished to live or die, I believe he would choose to live. This is somewhat of the basis of my opinion. If you believe that giving a child up for adoption is condemning them to a "poor" life, perhaps it is. Can we say that someone would rather have no life than a poor life? Should we put the mother's convalescence above this? I am not dismissing mum, she will never be free of such an experience, she may in time accept it.

I suppose I am fighting for the baby. Perhaps you believe I am ignoring mum. I am not. I don't take this lightly.

 

My only answer to this is the infant will not have a reasoned opinion on living a poor life or death until they are adults or near adult.  They have to experience the life, then realize that the life is less than optimal and not normal.  My own childhood was dysfunctional though far from horrible.  But I was in my 30s before I realized how dysfunctional and in what ways and what effect that had on me.

I know of no reason why someone should be subjected to disease, abuse, poverty, neglect or even mild disinterest throughout their formative years from the people who are supposed to provide them a supportive family.  Is this better than dying?  Of course the person who is now old enough to answer that question is going to often say yes, they want to live.  Otherwise, they would have succeeded in committing suicide.  According to my psychologist friend who works with troubled teens, suicide attempts can be viewed as requests for attention until the attempts get truly deadly.  The ones that succeed - or nearly succeed - are usually people who truly don't want to live.  Excepting the too successful accident - as in, they truly didn't want to die, set a up scenario they thought they could live through, and by some miscalculation they wound up dead.  Rare.

You can not ask a zygote/fetus if they want to live.  The question has no meaning at that age - ignoring the total lack of answer.  "Potentially" every zygote/fetus may wish to live if they had ever lived - even the ones that self-abort or miscarry, or are too messed up to survive because of bad genetics or injury prior to birth.  And that "potential" is not yours to be responsible for.  It is ultimately the mother's even if she has a spouse.  She is the only one who can say if she wishes to be responsible for that zygote (potential infant).  She is the one responsible for the consequences of her decision.

 

kierantitheridge wrote:

Concerning specialties. In the UK you have to have a "taster" of each. I have done 8 weeks in OBGYN. By no means comprehensive. I will have to refer, I will never actually have to perform such procedures. I will always put professionalism first.

 

Just as well.  I think they do something similar in the US, but I am not current and I don't watch TV.  Which means I miss all the "doctor" shows.  In the US, the Bush administration ruled it was okay for pharmacists and doctors to refuse to do the work they were hired to do based solely on one's morality.  Any other profession or employment, you don't get that option.  Irrational.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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Kierantitheridge, your thoughts on the following

If you believe that an implanted fertilized human ovum is life, then as an atheist would you hold similar pro-life standards to a fertilized implanted chimpanzee ovum that shares 99% of our DNA?

It is technologically feasible to use a human somatic cell to clone a human being. Do you therefore consider a somatic human cell a life that should not be terminated? Are all humans in your mind criminals for allowing their intestines to shed cells? How would you counsel your patients on this one?

As an atheist what is your definition of "life"? What in your mind distinguishes the implanted fertilized ovum versus the unfertilized ovum and sperm? In your mind is male masturbation and ejaculation a form of execution of all those potential babies?

I have yet to hear a convincing rational atheist pro-life argument.


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I see the argument for

I see the argument for "Life" beggining at conception, but I disagree with it... I am of the mnd that what makes us human beings is the ability to think and reason... to Live laugh and love, and while that potential exists in an unborn fetus, it will n ot be realized until after birth...  that same potential has been eliminated when using contraception, The morning after Pill, or batching to midget porn... From my perspective, abortion amounts to nothing more than delayed birth control... and while i don't think its wise to *practice* terminating pregnancies, ehtically, to me its the same...

Not to mention, as a man, *I* will never be pregnant... so I think it's morally wrong for men to inject themselves into this argument anyway...

The "Every Sperm is Sacred" argument  really starts to loose steam when you realize how few anti abortion activists have adopted unwanted babies... My experience is that more often than not, the "pro Life" stance stems from a burning desire to impose one's "faith" on others...and that such a stance often stems from a lack of sex, and an excess of carbohydrates...

Not to mention, how many "Pro-Lifer's" there are who have no problem taking lives once they are born... War, Death penalty, Against health care, Etc...

So my real opinion is, if you are anti abortion, adopt one of these sniveling little life wreckers, or shut the fuck up...

 

(no offense Kierantitheridge... you seem like a smart, nice guy)


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kierantitheridge wrote:I am

kierantitheridge wrote:

I am also strongly against Termination of Pregnancy/Abortion (referred to as ToP henceforth)

 

Sorry if I seem rude. But when people state some opinion that may have legal implications, please define what your opposition/support for something means in terms of what government should force people to do with guns and threats of punishment.

Is this just some moral opposition you have or do you want any of the following:

Women arrested and thrown in jail for having abortions?

Doctors and people that help women have abortions?

Pregnancy tests for women that may leave the country to terminate an abortion?

Punishments for people that do experiments with embryos?

 

Personally, I'm in favor of mandatory birth control which would virtually eliminate unwanted pregnancies.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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This is a group of atheists

This is a group of atheists against abortion(but I don't know what that means in terms of what they want the Men with the guns to do):

 

Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League Homepage

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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 I have better things to

 I have better things to waste my time on so I'll leave this one alone for now. Though I will note the op sounds similair though quite a bit more extreme than my own opinion.

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EXC wrote:Personally, I'm in

EXC wrote:

Personally, I'm in favor of mandatory birth control which would virtually eliminate unwanted pregnancies.

 

Do you have any idea about a possible technical realization of this?  It would be "F$#@ng golden", but I don't know how can it be done.

 

 


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kierantitheridge wrote:I

kierantitheridge wrote:

I would have to accept the Church raising the child. Although I would not like it.

I can't really keep up with what appears to be ire for my opinions so I will quickly try to respond to some of the above comments.

I have never been raped, likewise I have never had cancer, been in an accident or experienced any real significant life trauma. However on a daily basis I help people that have. I don't impose my opinions on them I do everything I can to help them. Just because I have not or can not experience something does not mean that I am unqualified to comment on it. I do however realise that my view can be limited because I have not experienced such events. I strive to find a balance.

I realise that not all life is precious or that every embryo will grow up into a "little angel". I am not naive. However that still is not a reason for ToP.

To latincanuck I agree with you, emergency contraception appeals to my sense of morality. As for qualifying my logic? I am putting a life before someone's grief. A bold choice admittedly but one which I think is acceptable. Yes this may exarcabate the victims grief but in my eyes that still isn't a good enough reason to terminate a life.

 

You are often taking about "this and that" being a not good enough reason for ToP.   My position on this is that, before making any comments, a rational person would need to analyze relevant information.  What is relevant here are the women who have decided that "this and that" ARE good reasons for ToP.  Have you analysed their reasoning? What makes you to thing that you know better and that your reasoning is stronger? 

 

In general, I hate abortions.  But hey, maybe we should listen to women's reasons before concluding anything.  Sometimes, it might be good that a doctor convinces a woman to continue with pregnancy, but sometimes I believe a doctor has to convince a woman to terminate it.  In my opinion, there should be no personal ethics argument in this involved from doctor's side; there should be a set of physical, psychiatric, and social conditions that would have to be satisfied to merely help a woman to make the best decision about her pregnancy.  If a doctor believes that a voodoo ritual should be used instead of antibiotics, I would respectfully demonstrate such a "doctor" my middle finger.  If a doctor tells a raped pregnant girl that she should not terminate her pregnancy, and the girl advises the doctor to go and f%$k himself, how should we expect the doctor to respond?  

 


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kierantitheridge wrote:@

kierantitheridge wrote:

@ Bob

Concerning Implantation, I totally agree. At what point we define the existence of life is hugely complicated.

This is weird.

I've never thought that "At what point we define the existence of life" has ever been hugely complicated. Life started about 4B years ago on this planet. It's continued uninterrupted ever since.

Life doesn't start fresh with every asexual division, or sexual recombination. Life is old, man, old. Those cells that implant in the womb are no more and no less "new life" than cells created by mitosis. Sure, they are genetically distinct from anything that's ever come before. But by that reckoning, so are all the sperm I dump out every time I masturbate.

So. Now that you know me for the callous ass-canal I am, I'm curious why you think genetic recombination makes a special case. After all, cancer cells are genetically unique, yet I have yet to hear anyone complain about chemotherapy.

(Note: as someone with a highly-valued daughter, I don't necessarily think abortion is a good thing. I'm just curious about your reasoning.)

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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100percentAtheist wrote:EXC

100percentAtheist wrote:

EXC wrote:

Personally, I'm in favor of mandatory birth control which would virtually eliminate unwanted pregnancies.

Do you have any idea about a possible technical realization of this? It would be "F$#@ng golden", but I don't know how can it be done.

Well I think if someone is given government aid in any form(education, welfare, etc...), they should be required to have proof of birth control. If they have a baby while agreeing not to in exchange for government benefits, then they should be fixed for life, required to enter a job training program to support the baby or jail.

If someone proves they can support themselves and a baby, then let them apply to have a baby just like they apply for a car or home loan.

If you're going to have a society where everyone is responsible to their fellow citizens, this must be done, responsibility must be 2 way. Otherwise, just have a 'you're all on your own' society.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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kierantitheridge wrote:I

kierantitheridge wrote:

I would have to accept the Church raising the child. Although I would not like it.

I can't really keep up with what appears to be ire for my opinions so I will quickly try to respond to some of the above comments.

I have never been raped, likewise I have never had cancer, been in an accident or experienced any real significant life trauma. However on a daily basis I help people that have. I don't impose my opinions on them I do everything I can to help them. Just because I have not or can not experience something does not mean that I am unqualified to comment on it. I do however realise that my view can be limited because I have not experienced such events. I strive to find a balance.

I realise that not all life is precious or that every embryo will grow up into a "little angel". I am not naive. However that still is not a reason for ToP.

To latincanuck I agree with you, emergency contraception appeals to my sense of morality. As for qualifying my logic? I am putting a life before someone's grief. A bold choice admittedly but one which I think is acceptable. Yes this may exarcabate the victims grief but in my eyes that still isn't a good enough reason to terminate a life.

But plan B is terminating a life, what it is doing is not allowing the fertilized egg to implant in the womb (a matter of definition of what you define as alive technically speaking) in the end it is no different. This is the issue at hand, I highly doubt you do comprehend the reasons why a woman would not want to go through the pregnancy, and really it's not up to you in any sense of the word unless you can somehow understand that point of view. Some women can deal with it, but those are so far and few in-between. The issue as well comes into play in cases of rape in which the victim is a minor or a child, which may not inform the appropriate authorities until a much longer period than the 5-7 days, such as the case for example the 10 year old in Brazil raped by her step father, the child was neither consenting nor capable of delivering the child yet the church and various pro-life groups were against abortion, it defies logic in all the senses. Your argument still does not in anyway give a logical reason as to why abortion should not be the case for a rape victim. The fetus is not a child at all, and as such is really just a tit for tat argument.

In the end life isn't as precious as you make it out to be, in order to survive we take lives, we eat animals to survive we kill life when we farm (all the insects and worms that get killed during the tilling and plantion) however your just putting human life a value that states we shouldn't terminate it at all for any reason short of medical reasons. But rape and unwanted pregnancies should also be allowed, for the mere fact that in the end, your not the one in that position, you don't have to deal with it, you don't have to deal with the emotional or psychological problems nor do you have to raise that child, you simply wash your hands from it, like so many pro-lifer's that in the end, they are not going to pay to raise that child, they are not going to take the responsibility in raising that child, and adoption is no guarantee that the child will have a good life or that it was be adopted either. Even worse are other countries in the world were orphans get sold into slave labor, child sex rings, or simply live a life of theft and drugs on the streets.


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@ RagdishDo I consider it

@ Ragdish

Do I consider it crime that everyday we shed cells that have the potential to clone life? Of course I don't. I am not talking in terms of potential but rather probability.

I don't consider an egg or sperm to be any great loss. Like I said I generally accept implantation (specifically in the uterus) to be the point from which the likelihood of term being reached is more likely than it not being reached. Of course other factors influence this, medicines, drugs, smoking, alcohol, body mass, previous history of ectopic or miscarriage.

As for my definition of life? I suppose I consider anything capable of passing on it's genes as being alive (by the passing on of genes I don't  necessarily mean from parent to offspring but from one cell to another)

 

@latin

At no point have I said life is precious. I merely stating that I disagree terminating a pregnancy that will probably reach term without any gross abnormalities to the baby. I understand in doing this I may subject the mother to deep emotional trauma but my argument to that I to strive to help her.

Essentially your argument is Mother's Emotional Health is greater than Baby's Right to Life.

My argument is the reverse.

As for insemination vs implantation the probabilities of reaching term are significantly different. But I agree both can be considered to be life depending on your definition.

 

@ Cj

It is difficult to decide between one's duty as a professional & one's beliefs. For me ultimately professionalism always prevails. The people of the UK have paid a fortune in taxes to train me as a Dr. I believe it is my duty to serve them as is deemed suitable by the Hippocratic Oath.


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kierantitheridge

kierantitheridge wrote:

 

Essentially your argument is Mother's Emotional Health is greater than Baby's Right to Life.

My argument is the reverse.

But baby is what comes out at birth.  Everything prior to the act of birth including sperm is only a potential baby.

If producing babies is the goal and the social well being of mothers and society is secondary to this goal then why don't we spend more effort in learning how to clone humans to infest this little planet with billions more of little angels.

Otherwise I yet have to see a reasonable argument supporting the idea why embryos are so precious that humans and specifically female humans can be denied their voice in it.

I think that many people here are trying to find out about your reasoning when you say "Mother's Emotional Health is greater than Baby's Right to Life. My argument is the reverse."

I understand that your argument is the reverse.  BUT WHY???

Please explain.

 

100%

 

Also, as Dr. you probably realize that Mother's Emotional Health problem may very likely to lead to a severe mental problem and potentially to death.  So, here you are weighing a potential death of a mature human versus a potential life of an unborn human.  


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@ 100%"WHY?"Because I have

@ 100%

"WHY?"

Because I have seen physically what a foetus is physiologically capable of from preterm labour. I saw a baby born at 28 weeks and it did everything I can do except breathe unaided. I watched it gasping for breath & the thought of it being only 4 weeks past the gestational age at which ToP is licenced for made me realise that it isn't just a foetus. I sat and thought well what would a baby be like at 24 weeks? Or 20 Weeks? It is accepted in the UK that at 24 weeks a foetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, before 24 weeks it is unlikely. Note unlikely, not impossible.

Now my definition as above is taken from implantation. An embryo at this stage has no chance outside the womb so I guess your next question would be so why not change your definition to 20 or 24 weeks or something similar. Again it just because the probability of reaching term is more likely than unlikely.

 

NB Technically ToP is only licenced until week 16 (I think) but is often done up to week 24 off licence


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kierantitheridge wrote: @

kierantitheridge wrote:

@ 100%

"WHY?"

Because I have seen physically what a foetus is physiologically capable of from preterm labour. I saw a baby born at 28 weeks and it did everything I can do except breathe unaided. I watched it gasping for breath & the thought of it being only 4 weeks past the gestational age at which ToP is licenced for made me realise that it isn't just a foetus. I sat and thought well what would a baby be like at 24 weeks? Or 20 Weeks? It is accepted in the UK that at 24 weeks a foetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, before 24 weeks it is unlikely. Note unlikely, not impossible.

Now my definition as above is taken from implantation. An embryo at this stage has no chance outside the womb so I guess your next question would be so why not change your definition to 20 or 24 weeks or something similar. Again it just because the probability of reaching term is more likely than unlikely.

 

NB Technically ToP is only licenced until week 16 (I think) but is often done up to week 24 off licence

 

That explains some of our differences.  I have no maternal instincts.  My thought when I see other people's infants is "thank goodness I don't have to deal with it."  My thought when my own were born, is "why am I doing this to myself again?"  To me, a baby is not a real person.  When they grow up to be two or three - "I want to dress myself!"  That is a real person.  Before that, they just sick up at one end and are even messier and smellier at the other and they sleep in very short bursts.  So why did I have children?  Maybe it was just for that moment when baby wanted to dress himself and becomes a real boy.

I don't believe in neglect or infanticide.  A decision to withhold nutrition from a newborn rather than prolong a life dependent on life support is one decision I am glad I never had to make.  Infanticide may have made sense when humans were dirt farmers and medicine consisted of 57 herbs and spices.  It doesn't make sense now with the advances humans have made in medicine and agriculture.  But then, I don't drown kittens or smother puppies, either.  A living being is due respect and care.  A not-quite-living being - it depends.

It is good that people like you are doctors, rather than people like me, I guess.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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@ CjDon't dismiss yourself

@ Cj

Don't dismiss yourself too quickly! Recognising your own perceived flaws & limitations is worthy of respect.


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kierantitheridge wrote:@

kierantitheridge wrote:

@ Cj

Don't dismiss yourself too quickly! Recognising your own perceived flaws & limitations is worthy of respect.

 

See?  You are a nice man.  Are you sure you want to hang around here? 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Hi Cj

 

Yeah - I was a little dubious at this sort of first post first but I think Kieran might be a very nice person in a very tough job. I still think it's choice and I have had my own regrettable experiences in this area but I would not want to face this stuff down on a daily basis. I do question some of Kieran's thoughts on what constitutes a cause for termination. If you are going to have one or 2 children only, as most of us do, there should be a choice to have children who will be happy and healthy, and who will not impose an impossible strain on carers. The idea of being carer for a disabled child, who as an adult gets thrown into an institution upon your death, is not an attractive one and faced with the certainty of this, I know I would try again. Not without pain and guilt. But that's what I would do.

One of the other guys - perhaps Bob - pointed out that this is a parental decision. I think that's correct. But for the healthcare professionals involved daily, people who got into their profession to preserve life, it must be tough.

 

 

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Abortion is a personal,

Abortion is a personal, moral, spiritual, religious (if you have one) decision.  That means nobody should be making that decision for another.  In other words, the pregnant lady makes the call.  Nobody else.

Nobody should compel a doctor who's opposed to abortion to perform one, of course.

I think the lady may wish to consider the father's input, but only in the same way that I as an author consider my editor's input.  My opinion on the father tends to drift.  I had a vasectomy over 20 years ago, so I have no base of experience to draw on there.

 

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Atheistextremist wrote:Yeah

Atheistextremist wrote:


Yeah - I was a little dubious at this sort of first post first but I think Kieran might be a very nice person in a very tough job. I still think it's choice and I have had my own regrettable experiences in this area but I would not want to face this stuff down on a daily basis. I do question some of Kieran's thoughts on what constitutes a cause for termination. If you are going to have one or 2 children only, as most of us do, there should be a choice to have children who will be happy and healthy, and who will not impose an impossible strain on carers. The idea of being carer for a disabled child, who as an adult gets thrown into an institution upon your death, is not an attractive one and faced with the certainty of this, I know I would try again. Not without pain and guilt. But that's what I would do.

One of the other guys - perhaps Bob - pointed out that this is a parental decision. I think that's correct. But for the healthcare professionals involved daily, people who got into their profession to preserve life, it must be tough. 

 

Have you seen "Cider House Rules"?  I thought it was a very caring movie about a young doctor who has to answer this exact question.  Kind of a tear jerker, which is not my usual choice in movies.

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This is just one of many

This is just one of many tough questions. And yes it may not be my question to answer, that falls on mum's shoulders, however it's always good to explore you're opinions (perhaps I should write them down a little more tactfully though?)

I have been asked in exams what should I do if a Jehovahs Witness requires a blood transfusion but is unconscious? Who should I triage first a little girl with no hope or a prisoner who is being transferred? An 11 year old girl wants a termination but her mother is against this who's consent do I seek?

Damn all I want to do is help people! When did that become tough?

In the UK we don't quite have the dichotomy of Pro-Life Conservatism vs Liberal Pro-Choice and everyone largely agrees that it's the mothers decision. I suppose that is the majority feeling on this thread.


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kierantitheridge wrote: This

kierantitheridge wrote:

This is just one of many tough questions. And yes it may not be my question to answer, that falls on mum's shoulders, however it's always good to explore you're opinions (perhaps I should write them down a little more tactfully though?)

 

Why?  It is so much more fun if you are tactless. 

 

kierantitheridge wrote:

I have been asked in exams what should I do if a Jehovahs Witness requires a blood transfusion but is unconscious? Who should I triage first a little girl with no hope or a prisoner who is being transferred? An 11 year old girl wants a termination but her mother is against this who's consent do I seek?

Damn all I want to do is help people! When did that become tough?

In the UK we don't quite have the dichotomy of Pro-Life Conservatism vs Liberal Pro-Choice and everyone largely agrees that it's the mothers decision. I suppose that is the majority feeling on this thread.

 

There are no easy answers.  Not for anyone.  I realize that answer could be put in the category of "that's no f***king help."  In the US a fair number of hospitals and larger clinics have an ethics department or patient advocate or chaplain.  If I had to answer questions like that, I'd ask them for different perspectives on why those questions have those answers that were "correct" on the exams.  And it might be a reasonable idea to ask ahead of time and to review any written guidelines at your institution. 

I can give you a hint on the Jehovah's Witness patient.  My sister and her family are JW.  She would rather die than have a transfusion.  She has said exactly those words to me.  When she had triple bypass surgery, the Catholic hospital had a special ward for "no transfusion" patients.  She came through the surgery fine without any extra blood.  Some in my family have extra small veins and arteries so they clog up really fast and easy.  My sister has them.  Fortunately for me, I don't.

I'm guessing on your exams, the right answer was "no transfusion".  Personally, I would ask the family.  Not all JWs are as adamant in their beliefs on transfusions.

My sister winding up at a Catholic hospital was rather funny in a way.  She believes Catholics are idolaters and hates them for it.  So here she is in the only hospital for miles.  And - they are nice to her, respect her beliefs, and give her excellent care.  Maybe Catholics aren't so bad after all.  I had to laugh.

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kierantitheridge

kierantitheridge wrote:

 

@latin

At no point have I said life is precious. I merely stating that I disagree terminating a pregnancy that will probably reach term without any gross abnormalities to the baby. I understand in doing this I may subject the mother to deep emotional trauma but my argument to that I to strive to help her.

Essentially your argument is Mother's Emotional Health is greater than Baby's Right to Life.

My argument is the reverse.

As for insemination vs implantation the probabilities of reaching term are significantly different. But I agree both can be considered to be life depending on your definition.

hmmm with your statement it makes it seem that your are stating that life is precious. It's not really a baby yet.  Not just emotional but psychological health as well.  A mother's emotional and psychological health should be the main concern, not every country in the world is the US or Canada, especially in regards to adoption and orphanages. If the mother is mentally or emotionally unfit to take care of the child, that becomes a problem as well. Where abortion should be given as an option in the cases of rape (see I said option). Personally I believe that a woman that has been raped should be given full knowledge of all the options available, and their consequences. Including counseling after making any decision be it abort, keep, adoption. But abortion should be an option, in the end the emotional/psychological damage, may mean the woman may never have children again, where aborting it, would mentally allow her to get past the event and eventually have more children.


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There was a flood of news

There was a flood of news articles today concerning whether the foetus can experience pain or consciousness before 24 weeks;

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7854109/Unborn-baby-cannot-feel-pain-before-abortion-limit-report.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jun/25/human-foetus-no-pain-24-weeks

 

An article from a few years back that anti abortionists latched on to

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article658385.ece

 

 


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kierantitheridge wrote:There

kierantitheridge wrote:

There was a flood of news articles today concerning whether the foetus can experience pain or consciousness before 24 weeks;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7854109/Unborn-baby-cannot-feel-pain-before-abortion-limit-report.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jun/25/human-foetus-no-pain-24-weeks

 

An article from a few years back that anti abortionists latched on to

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article658385.ece

 

This has been known for years, right?  The governing body reviewed existing literature, correct?  I don't know where to look for numbers in the UK, but in the US, the CDC keeps track.

The most recent numbers are for 2006.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5808a1.htm?s_cid=ss5808a1_e wrote:

The majority (62.0%) of abortions in 2006 were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation; few abortions were performed at 16--20 weeks' gestation (3.7%) or at ≥21 weeks' gestation (1.3%). During 1997--2006, the percentage of abortions performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation increased 11.7%; this increase largely was accounted for by procedures performed at ≤6 weeks' gestation, which increased 66.3%. In 2006, the greatest percentage (87.6%) of abortions were performed by curettage (including vacuum aspiration, sharp curettage, and dilation and evacuation procedures), followed by medical (nonsurgical) abortion (10.6%).

So 98.7% of all abortions performed in the US in 2006 were at less than 21 weeks gestation.  Before the fetus was able to feel pain.  I looked it up once for this forum in another thread we had on abortion.  The 1.3% appeared to be (I was not entirely certain of the source but it seemed mostly credible) exclusively due to fetal abnormalities that could not be diagnosed at an earlier stage of development.  And they were going to be fatal - the infant was not going to survive.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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abortion

 As far as rape goes I don't think we want a rapist DNA in our gene pool. Who wants that passed on?

 I am pro-choice and think it is a horrendous decision for any woman. Fortunately as a man I have not been involved in this kind of situation. But the other side of me believes the earth's resources are limited and one human being consumes more resources than any other living animal and we give nothing back in return, not even our body for the vultures and worms. We destroy countless animal environments and even those animals that get out of their destroyed environment tend to run into civilization and get killed by cars or humans. I would think for all life's sake limiting human expansion should be encouraged, but not enforced. I heard an interview with Ed Asner in the past that I love. He was asked "What are your views on abortion?". Ed thought a second and replied "As I look around I see many lost opportunities." 

 

kierantitheridge, thanks for the topic.

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kierantitheridge wrote:As

kierantitheridge wrote:

As for my definition of life? I suppose I consider anything capable of passing on it's genes as being alive (by the passing on of genes I don't  necessarily mean from parent to offspring but from one cell to another)

I am confused here. Too much woo-woo, not enough science. Please enlighten me. How can you pass on genes without having offspring? I thought that was the only way. At first when I read what you wrote I thought a mule cannot pass on genes and you can pass on genes til puberty. At what point can an organism pass on its' genes non-sexually and how and where?

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


kierantitheridge
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I use the term offspring to

ex-minister wrote:

 As far as rape goes I don't think we want a rapist DNA in our gene pool. Who wants that passed on?

 

Are you joking? Or are you suggesting rape is a hereditary condition?

 

I was defining "life" not "a life"

I use the term offspring to mean a daughter cell or progeny cell.

You are composed of billions of cells, this number is not static. Everyday your cells divide passing on their genes by a process called mitosis. I consider any cell capable of mitosis to be alive. That said I understand that a single cell depends on many other cells for survival and if removed from the body will quickly die. Thus I consider any cell in the body to be living but not necessarily capable living independently.

NB I understand a cell is a part of an organism and is not an autonomous unit of life. I merely consider it to be living

*As an addition I also include cells that are senescent to be living or cells that prefer miosis to mitosis to also be living (for you pedants out there!)*

My definition thus does not include viruses or prions to be living.

 

ps I have noticed in this thread people (myself included) are using the noun "life" interchangeably to mean both;

1) A single incidence of a living being eg a baby

and

2) The state of being alive which has existed for many billions of years

 


BobSpence
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ex-minister

ex-minister wrote:

kierantitheridge wrote:

As for my definition of life? I suppose I consider anything capable of passing on it's genes as being alive (by the passing on of genes I don't  necessarily mean from parent to offspring but from one cell to another)

I am confused here. Too much woo-woo, not enough science. Please enlighten me. How can you pass on genes without having offspring? I thought that was the only way. At first when I read what you wrote I thought a mule cannot pass on genes and you can pass on genes til puberty. At what point can an organism pass on its' genes non-sexually and how and where?

The exchange of genetic materia between single-cell organisms is a well-documented phenomenon

http://www.microbiologyprocedure.com/biotechnology-in-agriculture/gene-exchange-in-bacteria.html

Such exchange greatly enhances the spread of new genetic patterns through a population, allowing evolutionary adaptation to proceed far more effectively, which is why it would persist - and be selected for.

Since it manifestly will speed evolution, organisms doing it would have evolved faster and so come to dominate.

I think it is highly likely that this is how/why sexual reproduction emerged, as an effective way to continue this mixing of genetic material thru the population.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


ex-minister
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Thanks

 Thanks kierantitheridge and BobSpence1. Something for me to ponder. Really enjoy this website.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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rape gene?

kierantitheridge wrote:

ex-minister wrote:

 As far as rape goes I don't think we want a rapist DNA in our gene pool. Who wants that passed on?

 

Are you joking? Or are you suggesting rape is a hereditary condition?

 

 

Well, I am not joking. My understanding of science is light, but I believe it could be passed on. Ducks and Geese exhibit this behavior. The one who breeds get his genes passed on. This is why the human male drive is very strong. The guys with the biggest drive succeed and breed.

I just read in Wiki my opinion is controversial. But if alcoholism can be passed on why not this? 

Men who rape professionals say they are angry and it is not about sex but dominance. High levels of testoserone? 

I would be interested in anyone's  opinion on this.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/