Ooohh? So you believe that faith in Christ determines whether or not you will go to heaven, and your works determine the quantity and/or quality of your rewards in heaven?

For example, if Hitler went to heaven, he'd get a little shack right next to the pearly gates. Martin Luther King Jr., on the other hand, will get a mansion at the top of a hill.

Okay, what's your evidence for this assertion?

Lee2216 wrote:

Cherry picker!! If read in context, the verses are referring to Christians, not unbelievers.

Maybe. It seems rather ambiguous to me.

If it is, it doesn't really matter. I'm not talking about unbelievers either, lol. The question is whether works matters for salvation i.e. can a person be saved with only faith. Unbelievers don't have faith, so they clearly can't be saved. (which I also find immoral) Ergo, we're talking about the difference between people who professedly have faith that do good works and that don't do good works.

Lee2216 wrote:

The judgement seat of Christ involves believers giving an account of their lives to Christ. The judgement seat of Christ does not determine salvation, that was determined by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

Okay. Do you have evidence for that?

Oh, this is better if I post 14-26.

James 2:14-26

¹⁴What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 ¹⁵If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

 ¹⁶And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

 ¹⁷Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 ¹⁸Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 ¹⁹Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 ²⁰But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 ²¹Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 ²²Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 ²³And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 ²⁴Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 ²⁵Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 ²⁶For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Um, this seems to imply what you're arguing against. It even says, "can faith save him?" with the succeeding verses stamping an adamant "no." It's saying that you can't be saved with only faith, which is what it means when it says faith without works is dead. You also need works to get salvation.

You say you can prove God using reason and logic but you haven't done so.

You haven't even taken on my points yet so I doubt if you can actually do what you're claiming.

either prove God with reason and logic or admit that your mouth wrote a check that your butt can't cash and move on.

Not for the first time, I am genuinely becoming uncomfortable with the possibility we are beating up on a child, or worse...

Probably a 16 or 17 year old. They think they know everything but don't know their butts from a hole in the ground.

I've been sick with the flu and finally feeling a lot better. So no, I'm not avoiding your questions Bob. You have no reason to call me a hypocrite. I can accept science that conflicts with the bible. I don't deny at all that there are some conflicts, but that doesn't mean the bible is not true. All that means is that current science has no way to explain it or there are still some problems. We have only two possible choices. The creation account is true or it's not true. The order in which things were created is really irrelevant anyway. Nobody was there at the moment of creation other than God. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth is an unambiguous statement. I just can't understand for the life of me why the atheist denies this fact.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20 The scriptures says you have no excuse Bob!

I love that cop out.

"I really don't have evidence and if I just pull something out from between my gluteals he'll probably call me on it. I know! I'll say that all the evidence is there but he's such an evil, hateful atheist that he denies what's in front of him because he's in rebellion against God. that covers my lack of knowledge and protects God too. I'm such a good Christian."

Sorry, bubbles. If you can't do what you claim to be able to do, admit it. Honesty from a Christian would be refreshing.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20 Here's your evidence right here! You have NO EXCUSE jc!

Well if that is all true, then the idea of a crucifixion, death and resurrection was a totally pointless waste of time.

There is zero evidence for the Universe being anything like described in Genesis. So without such evidence, there is zero reason to take Genesis seriously.

We do have an explanation for the account in Genesis - it is a mashup of origin myths from earlier cultures, which in turn were a mix of even earlier ideas and some of their own ideas, and so on.

None of these ideas were based on the detailed observation we have available now, and were not testable with the resources of the time, so were essentially just speculation, coming up with ideas which made sense within the more limited knowledge of their time.

If the creation account is not true, then there are an infinite number of alternative options, not just one, including all the origin stories of other cultures around the world. Science goes with whatever can be tested and is consistent with all other established theories.

That initial statement itself may be unambiguous, but it is flat out wrong - the Earth formed billions of years after the Universe itself, so the heavens, at least the stars, which means the rest of the Universe apart from the Sun and Moon and the rest of our solar system, were in existence long before the Earth. Actually there is an ambiguity as to exactly what is meant by 'the heavens'. I made the simplest assumption.

The order of creation is definitely crucial - you can't have green plants without the Sun, for example.

Noone can see anything directly and unambiguously pointing to the nature of God, not even whether he is 'good' or not.

What can be clearly seen is the willingness of many people to see what they want to, or expect to see.

The scriptures have no inherent validation, I could care less what some guy wrote a few thousand years ago. What is your excuse for accepting such crap without proof?

Good thing for you I don't listen to Paul of Tarsus - the architect of your religion and the creator of the God you serve.

Oh, and I see you still have no evidence or intention of proving your God by reason and logic as you claim you can.

How much trouble do you intend to let yourself get into?

1. You're engaging yourself in a battle to save my soul but you act like you don't really give a damn about me coming over to your side. some soldier you are.

2. What truth can you proclaim from a book that neither you nor your God can follow?

3. With soldiers like you, the war is lost.

$. Congratulations! You managed to tell a half truth! You are here to confront, that much is certain. Whether your lies and propaganda are appealing enough to replace facts and evidence remains to be seen.

4. If Satan hates the truth, then he loves you more than you probably know.

I have an excuse. I don't believe claims made by the Bible until they are corroborated by evidence.

War? Hmmm....always seems to be an evil word like war thrown in as chritians scream they are trying to spread the word of god because god told them to. Sounds like they're trying to recruit for the army of god. None of which makes me want to enlist.

Or is this a war against us atheists? I've been accused of being a satanist on this site so let me tell you what the meaning of theist is for me.....

T- take

H-heed

e-everyone

i-it's

s-satans

t-tagalong.

   In short, I'm not a satanist but I think possibly you guys are. None of which even have the same views on christianity or any other religion for that matter. You all get the meanings in the bible twisted and you quote scriptures to meaning something totally different from what the last theist told me it meant. I've said this before on this site, I was always told by my grandmother and mostly my deranged mother that satan is the author of confusion. Kinda funny looking back because for years I let that woman confuse me a lot. I'm now convinced that if there  actually is a satan, she is it.

  Same goes here. You all have different versions, some get so upset that they resort to name calling, exposing people on here, and even saying the most evil things about an atheists children. How can they claim to be spreading the word of god and then turn around to be the first one s to verbally, emotionally, and mentally attack someone simply because we won't buy their line of shit? The way the majority of theist come here and try to "debate" is very confusing to me. Especially those who end up doing the insulting I just mentioned. I don't like the confusion nor the degrading I've received from a few theists on here just because I don't agree with them or even correct them when I know they are wrong. It's childish somewhat but more so evil in my book.

Please feel free to name one non-Biblical source, that is not merely faith based, that will back up any of the outrageous claims that you are making. Any source that  you would like to name would be a good starting point.

Ok so this all knowing, all seeing deity, after asking "who" gave you the apple... OK, Let's count,...... God, Adam, Eve, Serpent, er.... 4!.  Obviously in the 6 days of making the Earth then having a nap he may, as we were made in his image, have needed a Police Force (Department) to work it out for him. Because as, he later turned out to be a megalomanic, psychotically challenged, ethnic cleansing, pillaging, accessory to mass murder,  bloody psychopath, one may have thought that one or more of these traits just-may-have-been-passed on. Proof of the pudding happened when his grandson ( well, yes, he created him didn't he)?, Cain, then went on to murder his brother, bit of bad workmanship going on there I think. But, what I have difficulty with, is that El Goddo awarded  us the sin, in perpetuity, because of something, some ignorant, backward, superstitious, desert nomads did (supposedly) thousands of years ago and buggerall to do with me jack.  Does that not mean that  he then had the power all along to just forgive us, (a txt or email,......... U R 4given, luv god x),. Nope, not a bit of it, more blood and sacrifice is needed, I know.......I !!!!, will make make the ultimate sacrifice, I will send........somebody else..... to die for me. (Ever tried running for office mate).

I think what a lot of people don't notice is that God forbids them from eating the fruit because they'll die, while the serpent tells them the exact opposite. What we are told next is that God kicks them out of heaven and proves the serpent right. In this case, the Bible points out God as a liar.

Gen 2:17 (KJV)

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I don't see an "eventually" or a "spiritually" in there, do you? Those are the popular interpretations that folk made up.

Come on theists, defend your God. Tell me that "Thus saith the Lord" doesn't mean that anymore.

Disobeying God may have been a 'sin', but it was not necessarily evil or even an immoral thing to do.

If disobedience to an authority figure is automatically wrong, we should have let Hitler's deputies off because they were "just following orders".

But God is, by definition, good, so all these problems you raise are simply due to our inability to comprehend him... D'uh.

You must never even entertain the simple option, where all these difficulties disappear, that he does not exist. Or perhaps he does, but is he just gets if off by teasing and torturing us.