Hellow from the Pacific NW!

skeptic23
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Hellow from the Pacific NW!

Glad to find this place. I'm a former Christian coming out of a 15-year period of reevaluating of all my beliefs from scratch, down to the very existence of God. In the process I've spent a fair amount of time reading and listening to atheists. I figured that atheists would be better acquainted with the reasons for not believing in gods than anyone else. I've been frustrated in that effort. I hope there are those here who can help me with that.

Just to clear the air, I'm not a covert theist operative, as some have taken me for elsewhere. I understand why they did: my thinking tends to be hard to categorize. I ask questions about things a lot of people take for granted. It's interesting how much suspicion gets aroused when you question the "obvious" or suspend belief for longer than others are comfortable with.

I went on the About.com Agnosticism / Atheism forum a couple of years ago trying to understand why atheists choose atheism. At the time, it seemed strange to me that an intellectual/theoretical position would label and define itself by reference to what it denied. If atheism doesn't depend on the existence of theism in order to define itself, what does it mean to be an "atheist?" How could LACK of something ("a" - without, "theism" - belief in god[s]) form the basis for collective identity and provide anything cohesive enough to maintain a sense of belonging and shared interest?

I got schooled. What I learned there is that atheism for the folks I conversed with was actually a kind of anti-theism, but not as an intellectual position. I was given to believe that apart from the influence--even pressure--of theists, atheists would simply think of themselves as  human beings. In other words, "atheism" = normal human thinking, "theism" = human thinking corrupted by the addition of belief in gods. In my residual theistic bias, I had made atheism = lack of theism, while atheists seem not to have any sense of lack (gee, go figure...) I guess I can be forgiven for my presumption, since I spent most of my life in Christian circles. To me the question of God's existence was a valid question. To the atheists on that forum, the question itself was symptomatic of a problem in thinking.

That brought me to an interesting and revealing insight. I experienced the same kind of reaction more than once in my life from theists when I brought their basic beliefs (foundational, self-evident, I-have-no-justification-for-them beliefs) into question, even though I was sympathetic to them. I realized that theists consider the question of atheism as an aberration of thought and atheists consider the question of theism as an aberration of thought. Given that, how could there ever be meaningful discussion between the two positions?

What I really hope to do here is understand why atheists choose to become atheists. I expect that the reasons are wide and varied, but they all have one thing in common: they all result in atheism. I already understand a great deal about why theists choose to become theists. My frustration with understanding atheists so far is that they exhibit the same reluctance to examine their foundational beliefs that theists do. Most of what I've read and heard atheists say boils down to reasons why it doesn't make sense to seriously entertain the possibility of the existence of gods. This seems like the flip side of the theistic refusal to seriously entertain the possibility that gods do not exist. Both seem like opposing sides of the same coin of denial.

What both theists and atheists have in common is that we all went through a process to arrive at our respective positions. One striking difference between theists and atheists is the way that they talk about their individual processes. The processes described by theists tend to focus on constructive elements (what did happen, what it did mean) while those of atheists seem to focus on deconstructive elements (realizing what didn't happen, realizing that it didn't mean what it seemed to mean.)

As an example of the latter, consider Sir Bertrand Russell's description of his own process. It is from a 1959 interview in which he is asked about his atheism. Here is Richard Dawkins' page with a link to the interview: http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4833. In response to the question, "…when did you first decide that you did not want to remain a believer in the Christian ethic?" Russell said:

"I never decided that I didn't want to remain a believer, I decided… Between the ages of 15 and 18, I spent almost all my spare time thinking about Christian dogmas and trying to find out whether there was any reason to believe them. And by the time I was 18, I had discarded the last of them. "

What has always struck me about this answer is not that he rejected Christian dogmas, but some more basic things that I have yet to read or hear him comment about. For example, what motivated him to spend so much time and energy evaluating Christian dogmas? I can't think of many Christians who have put that kind of effort into evaluating the very dogmas that they claim to believe. That was some serious motivation. And why did he focus on dogmas in the first place? In other words, why did he conceive of the question in terms of dogma? Did he consider alternative ways to frame the question? Why did he think that disposing of Christian dogmas would mean that he had disposed of Christianity?

If we don't understand the basic beliefs and motivations that prompted us to start our processes and drove us through them, we don't really understand why we ended up in our current positions, and to that degree we don't understand the positions themselves. I want to talk to people about their processes in order to understand them and to understand myself. That's why I'm here.

Am I in the right place?

When The Church, i.e., organized religion collectively, divests itself of its obscene wealth, gives it all to feed the poor, and releases its death grip on the minds of its adherents, I will once again listen to what it has to say, which at that point I'm sure will be very little.

Man has to awaken to wonder — and so perhaps do peoples.
Science is a way of sending him to sleep again.
-- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus


BobSpence
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I am fine with the basic

I am fine with the basic idea of 'emergentism'. I push it all the time as an answer to the strawman idea of "how can 'mere matter' account for consciousness and a slew of 'higher level' aspects of reality, of how matter and energy can form the basis of an indefinitely complex series of levels of emergent properties.

But I just do not see it as necessary to account for morality. The explanation I provided for morality would be equally valid independently of what was seen as the origin or explanation for the existence of self-aware beings.

That quote does not describe how we get to morality, it leaps over several levels of description. At best it makes the general point that materialism does not preclude all the higher level concepts of self and morality.

In the same manner as the principles of mechanics, such as levers, gears, etc do not require a particular theory of the ultimate constituents of matter to be valid, or that computer science and programming do not depend on the technology used to make computers, or the mechanisms by which our brains generate conscious thought.

I may have made the unwarranted assumption that I could take such a basic concept as emergence as a given in our conversation, since I assumed we had got beyond the ideas of the supernatural, of dualism, which is what theists invoke to 'explain' things like consciousness and morality. I take it as a fundamental, hardly requiring justification.

BTW, I did not see an acknowledgement that you did not understand the process of science beyond lab work, as demonstrated by your erroneous use of 'theory' and 'hypothesis'. Forgive me if I missed it. I bring that up as an example of your failings to address some of my points.

I am not particularly impressed by Kant or anyone who wants to derive support from him, although he is not the worst of philosphers. Aristotle is beneath contempt - anyone who proposed that heavier objects must fall faster than light objects, intrinsically, is a dumb-ass, when even many of his contemporaries endeavoured to point out how that failed to explain many direct observations. The idea didn't even really need empirical observation to be shot down - a simple thought experiment would have sufficed.

This reminds me of when I was long ago challenged by a co-worker, who thought of himself as smart guy ( he was ) right up there on math and science. He reckoned I seemed to have failed to grasp some ideas he regarded as fundamental insights, whereas I realized, as he proceeded to elaborate, that I had long ago worked through the concepts he was still entranced with, and gone on to the next level.

I understand what that quote was about, and it may be considered a good start.

If the author keeps working on it, and gets over his attraction to the outdated ideas of old philosophers, he too might move on to some real insights. Just as you probably will. I have been working my way through these ideas, of philosophy and science and all the other issues, for over 50 years, so if you have only been climbing out of the depths of unenlightenment (Christianity) for 15 years, I should have made more allowances, I guess, but your manner kept getting under my skin. Mea culpa.

Yeah, I do find your comments mildly amusing, in a sad sort of way...

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Atheistextremist
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This entire circumstance arose

 

because Skeptic suggested theists would be mistreated by atheists. His 'emergence' carry on is no more than a label for what we were always talking about. That there are things in the universe that have value - family, society.

Maybe I'm just floating in the upper layers of intellect but why should morality need to exist so deep in that without god we are driven to nihilism? Social relationships are vital for human survival now and were even more vital in our past.

It's not bloody rocket science. Without social connections we died. In any case Skeptic, in what shreds he chose to reveal of his true position, always sounded like, and has now acted like, a confirmed theist.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


robj101
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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

because Skeptic suggested theists would be mistreated by atheists. His 'emergence' carry on is no more than a label for what we were always talking about. That there are things in the universe that have value - family, society.

Maybe I'm just floating in the upper layers of intellect but why should morality need to exist so deep in that without god we are driven to nihilism? Social relationships are vital for human survival now and were even more vital in our past.

It's not bloody rocket science. Without social connections we died. In any case Skeptic, in what shreds he chose to reveal of his true position, always sounded like, and has now acted like, a confirmed theist.

 

I agree. However I think if atheists dominated society the roles would likely be reversed. A politician who believed in divine inspiration from some supernatural being would have a hard time getting elected for example.

As far as something stupid like, punching them, or corralling them and putting them in camps, nah I don't think so. Things would roll on much as they are now, we would simply base more on fact than on fiction.

Rather than lying about a god wanting us to invade Iraq or any other country, just tell the truth.

I also agree that he is indeed a theist as mentioned in his op. An atheist has worked out morals and where they come from, such a silly question but common for a theist to ask.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin