Just Ask Grandpa - A Christian answers tough questions and debunks common myths
Offline Way too many "delusional myths", and unanswered questions on this site. One cannot rationally disbelieve something unless they have a clear picture of what it is that they do not believe. Since I do not see these myths and false perceptions answered properly in terms of simple reasoning I shall attempt to do it myself.
Myth #1. God will burn "sinners" in "HELL" throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. This is not supported in the bible. It is merely a false doctrine that entered the church during the dark ages. It has it's roots in paganism. Unfortunately most Christians still believe this myth. Ultimately those who choose to accept Gods gift of eternal life will go on to live forever in a world without all the suffering and horrors of this world. Those who do not accept His gift will cease to exist and have nothing to do with God as they have chosen and wished for. Sounds pretty fair to me!
If God were indeed to burn anybody throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity (including the devil) He would be the most terrible monster one could imagine. I myself would join the movement in defying and blasting God. Fortunately we have a loving creator God that will not and would not do that.
Rather than writing a 20 page study on the topic of death and hell, I will just give a website that those interested can visit that will clearly and definitively clear this myth up. It is hell truth.com.
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, ‘almâ can refer only to a virgin. Song of Solomon 6:8 (“There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number&rdquo
For now I will ignore your quips about Christianity and get down to business. As for Antiochus, the later days, and a day for a year, you are again getting ahead of yourself.
When we study Daniel's prophecies about the kingdoms we find a pattern of "repeat and enlarge". Each vision given Daniel became progressively detailed. We see the same kingdoms but get more specifics. I will give a brief overview.
Daniel 2. This prophecy must foretell as it says "what will be in the latter days". Since it starts with Babylon and ends in the later days it stands to reason that it refers to major players along the way. Kingdoms relevant to God's people starting with the first kingdom to follow Babylon. So we will start there.
1. We have the head of gold - which we know is Babylon.
2. We have the chest and arms of silver - which I believe is Medo-Persia.
3. We have the belly and thighs of bronze - which I believe is Greece.
4. We have the legs of Iron - which I believe to be Rome. Out of this kingdom we get a divided kingdom which shall last until God sets up His kingdom, which is still in the future.
Since we still have some debate to the identity of these kingdoms we will hold open the possibility I may be wrong. We will continue to Daniel 7 to see if we find any of these kingdoms there and look at any conflicting differences or similarities.
Daniel 7. Here we have four beasts representing four kingdoms.
1. We have a lion with eagles wings - which I believe to be Babylon.
2. We have a bear raised up on on side - which I believe to be Medo-Persia.
3. We have a leopard with four wings and four heads - which I believe to be Greece.
4. We have a dreadful, terrible, and exceedingly strong beast with iron teeth, and 10 horns - which I believe to be Rome. Out of this beast comes a little horn we will discuss later.
Daniel 8 gives further details.
1. The first kingdom is not mentioned here. This prophecy was given toward the end of Nebuchadnezzars Babylonian kingdom.
2. We have a Ram with two horns, one higher than the other - It is identified for us as the "kings of Media and Persia".
3. We have a Goat which "came...not touching the ground". We would call this really flying. The goat is identified for us as Greece. It had four horns which are identified as "four kingdoms (that) shall arise out of that nation.
4. We have a little horn which will require much more detailed investigation to positively identify. I will do this later separately.
Some points of interest.
The first kingdom in Daniel 7 being described as a loin with eagles wings fits nicely as a symbol for Babylon. The lion-shaped bas-reliefs on Babylons baked-brick walls, and the large stone lion that still crouches over a fallen stone woman in Babylon help attest to this. The British Museum's finding of lions with eagles wings in Babylon also add weight to this. I'll not get to deep into the archeology in this brief overview.
The second kingdom in Daniel 7 being a bear raised up on one side - coincides with the Ram in Daniel 8 which is identified as Medo-Persia that had one horn larger than the other. (Symbols of Persia's being the greater). The three ribs in the bears mouth coincide with the nations of Egypt, Babylon and Lydia, which were overthrown by Medo-Persia.
The third kingdom in Daniel 7 being a leopard having four wings - symbolizes the speed in which Alexander the Great conquered the then known world. This coincides with the goat that came "not touching the ground", or flying. The four heads represent the four generals of Alexander and coincide with Daniel 8's four horns which are identified for us as four kingdoms.
The fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the little horn of Daniel 8 will be addressed separately as they are much too involved to go into in this brief overview.
To me the identification of these kingdoms is obvious. You probably disagree. As we move forward I will strengthen these assumptions. Right now I am just asserting that this interpretation fits quite nicely. If you can see any reason why it does not work let me know. If you concede this is a possibility (not necessarily the only one) than I will proceed deeper into the fourth beast and the little horn.
This will get a lot more detailed and other options will drop out one by one along the way.
More later.
Gramps
1. Creation ex nihilo is something I leave to you Christians> I believe that matter and/or energy were there at the beginning when space-time expanded. I do enjoy your crowing about your lack of knowledge.
2. Answerable to the laws of human society and my moral code, yes. Shame you can't say that - you use God to cover your ass. You need to make allowances for your God's inadequacies? I can see that, As for your god's needs, he craves worship, does he not?
3. God wrote all your books? Really? Didn't have the rocks to put his name on them, eh? What does it tel you about your God that people have "liberal" and "conservative" theologies for one absolute being?
4. Justice or mercy based solely on how deeply I kiss your God's ass? Where's the objective criteria?
5. Glad you liked the "fuckwit" name. Consider it an honor - not too many people are mindbogglingly stupid enough to get that out of me.
6. So, why do you believe in an ex nihilo creation in a cause/effect system?
7. When it comes to getting what you want or your "personal convictions", which goes away first?
8. Hey, if you want to keep a badge you got dishonestly, ok. I guess we know where your personal convictions are.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
In bible prophecy time can be either literal or symbolic. It is important to know the difference. A day can be one literal day, or it can be symbolic for a year. One example is in Ezekiel 4:6 "I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the number of years of their iniquity". We will also discover that some of the Daniel prophecies can not be referring to literal time and make any sense.
In the bible we also find a month to be equal to 30 days. The flood story gives us a good example of this. Genesis 7:11 the flood event starts on the 2nd month 17th day, and Genesis 8:4 it ends on the 7th month 17th day. This comes out to exactly 5 months. In Genesis 8:24 it says the "water prevailed on the earth 150 days". 150 days/5 months = 30 days.
In Daniel the term Time or Times is also used. The term time is translated to equal one year and times or (two times) refers to 2 years. The word used is "iddan" translated by Strongs Hebrew Lexicoon "a set time: technically a year: time".
As we get into time prophecies we will hold the position that the passage could be literal or symbolic. We will examine both possibilities and see which makes sense.
In other word, the prophecy can be interpreted to fit whatever conclusion is desired.
This issue is why the Bible "prophecies have a lot in common with the "prophecies" of Nostradamus.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Not at all. The prophecies in Daniel are very specific and detailed. A detailed examination will eliminate all but the correct interpretations. That is why it is important to establish sound basic principles.
I have not seen any Nostradamus prophecies that come anywhere close to paralleling those in the bible.
Interesting.
Are you saying you don't place much stock in the Bible? A bunch of Jews did write it (except for the heretics that wrote the parts you like aka the replacement religion).
Greek culture doesn't agree with Christianity? True enough. Christianity is a Roman construct whose texts were written in Greek. Why else would the religion be so friendly with the conquerors?
I look forward to your attempts at moving from Alexander and Antiochus to the EU vs. Israel and the US, for example. You might even go as far as including bin Laden. Or how when Daniel mentions "days" it really means "years"
For now I will ignore your quips about Christianity and get down to business. As for Antiochus, the later days, and a day for a year, you are again getting ahead of yourself.
When we study Daniel's prophecies about the kingdoms we find a pattern of "repeat and enlarge". Each vision given Daniel became progressively detailed. We see the same kingdoms but get more specifics. I will give a brief overview.
Daniel 2. This prophecy must foretell as it says "what will be in the latter days". Since it starts with Babylon and ends in the later days it stands to reason that it refers to major players along the way. Kingdoms relevant to God's people starting with the first kingdom to follow Babylon. So we will start there.
1. We have the head of gold - which we know is Babylon.
2. We have the chest and arms of silver - which I believe is Medo-Persia.
3. We have the belly and thighs of bronze - which I believe is Greece.
4. We have the legs of Iron - which I believe to be Rome. Out of this kingdom we get a divided kingdom which shall last until God sets up His kingdom, which is still in the future.
Since we still have some debate to the identity of these kingdoms we will hold open the possibility I may be wrong. We will continue to Daniel 7 to see if we find any of these kingdoms there and look at any conflicting differences or similarities.
Daniel 7. Here we have four beasts representing four kingdoms.
1. We have a lion with eagles wings - which I believe to be Babylon.
2. We have a bear raised up on on side - which I believe to be Medo-Persia.
3. We have a leopard with four wings and four heads - which I believe to be Greece.
4. We have a dreadful, terrible, and exceedingly strong beast with iron teeth, and 10 horns - which I believe to be Rome. Out of this beast comes a little horn we will discuss later.
Daniel 8 gives further details.
1. The first kingdom is not mentioned here. This prophecy was given toward the end of Nebuchadnezzars Babylonian kingdom.
2. We have a Ram with two horns, one higher than the other - It is identified for us as the "kings of Media and Persia".
3. We have a Goat which "came...not touching the ground". We would call this really flying. The goat is identified for us as Greece. It had four horns which are identified as "four kingdoms (that) shall arise out of that nation.
4. We have a little horn which will require much more detailed investigation to positively identify. I will do this later separately.
Some points of interest.
The first kingdom in Daniel 7 being described as a loin with eagles wings fits nicely as a symbol for Babylon. The lion-shaped bas-reliefs on Babylons baked-brick walls, and the large stone lion that still crouches over a fallen stone woman in Babylon help attest to this. The British Museum's finding of lions with eagles wings in Babylon also add weight to this. I'll not get to deep into the archeology in this brief overview.
The second kingdom in Daniel 7 being a bear raised up on one side - coincides with the Ram in Daniel 8 which is identified as Medo-Persia that had one horn larger than the other. (Symbols of Persia's being the greater). The three ribs in the bears mouth coincide with the nations of Egypt, Babylon and Lydia, which were overthrown by Medo-Persia.
The third kingdom in Daniel 7 being a leopard having four wings - symbolizes the speed in which Alexander the Great conquered the then known world. This coincides with the goat that came "not touching the ground", or flying. The four heads represent the four generals of Alexander and coincide with Daniel 8's four horns which are identified for us as four kingdoms.
The fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the little horn of Daniel 8 will be addressed separately as they are much too involved to go into in this brief overview.
To me the identification of these kingdoms is obvious. You probably disagree. As we move forward I will strengthen these assumptions. Right now I am just asserting that this interpretation fits quite nicely. If you can see any reason why it does not work let me know. If you concede this is a possibility (not necessarily the only one) than I will proceed deeper into the fourth beast and the little horn.
This will get a lot more detailed and other options will drop out one by one along the way.
More later.
Gramps
Now for the 4th beast of Daniel 7. This beast follows the Leopard with 4wings and 4 heads which remarkably resembles the male goat in Daniel 8 identified for us as Greece.
Daniel 7:7 "After this I saw...a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet...and it had 10 horns".
This is a description of a major power. We can easily rule out individual and rather insignificant kings and kingdoms.
Daniel 7:8 "I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots...eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words".
The 10 horns and the little horn play an important role in identifying this 4th beast. Helpfully, Daniel is given an explanation specifically addressing these horns.
Daniel 7:23-25 "...the fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom...the ten horns are ten kings who shall rise from this kingdom. And another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings. He shall speak pompous words against the most high, shall persecute the saints...intend to change times and law...the saints shall be given into his hand for a time times and half a time".
Identifying points of the 4th beast:
1. An exceedingly great and powerful kingdom.
2. Had ten kings arise out of its dominion.
3. Had another power arise out of these 10 kingdoms after them that would speak pompous words against God, shall persecute the saints for a time times and half a time, and intend to change times and laws.
The only major kingdom following Greece (or Macedonia) that fits this mold is Rome. Rome was not conquered by a single power, or even an alliance of powers. The Goths or Germanic tribes began moving in and breaking up the Roman empire. These tribes became major nations of Western Europe that still exist today.
Anglo-Saxons became England
Franks became France
Burgundians became Switzerland
Visigoths became Spain
Alamanni became Germany
Suevi became Portugal
Lombards became Italy
Heruli destroyed completely AD 493
Vandals destroyed completely AD 534
Ostrogoths destroyed completely AD 538
These ten tribes correspond to the ten toes on the image, and the ten horns on the beast of Daniel 7. The three tribes that were destroyed are the three kings subdued by the little horn.
Next we will go further into the identifying points of the little horn. This will give us further details helping to confirm Rome as the 4th beast of Daniel 7. After that I will consider any alternate kingdom suggested as this 4th beast and see if it can possibly fit this prophecy.