Washington State's I-1068/Pot legalization... What do YOU think?

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Washington State's I-1068/Pot legalization... What do YOU think?

http://sensiblewashington.org/read-i-1068/

I personally have been working to get signatures for this, since I think the only thing prohibition does is create a large black market. What do you think? Do you think the War on Drugs has been a success or failure? It looks like this has a good chance of winning, along with California's almost identical initiative. So... your opinions?

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ZuS wrote:Tapey wrote:My

ZuS wrote:

Tapey wrote:

My personal opinion is it should only be illegal to make or sell drugs. using them should be legal.

There's one problem with that, see.. There are a couple of industries earning billions on incarceration of humans and they don't care much for what you think. They lobby to put more people in prison, because it helps their bottom line.

I don't think people realize just how detrimental to our own interests market mechanics not only have become, but have always been. I don't think people realize that survival of the human race might be riding on our ability to shake out of the stupor and start learning how to interact with the world around us for our benefit. People are afraid of being sued - why? Aren't courts supposed to be where we decide right from wrong? Why are we so disengaged? Look at the corporations - they have dozens and hundreds of lost cases behind them and they plow right on. What about an average Joe? He can get life for having pot on him 3 times some places in the US. First would be evening the playing field in the courts some, so that people can get some practice with being involved in legal matters. Before that's done, you should not sleep.

So how do you do this? We have to start somewhere, I suppose. How about pulling out the hose shoved down your throat with mother's milk that is continuously force-feeding you bullshit and this crap you call opinion?

use peer pressure to got obama to smoke a lil weed.

 

 

How would I get it done? I wouldn't, i have no intention of ever trying to get it done. I don't care enough to do anything about it. Nothing would change even if drugs became legal.

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Tapey wrote:Gauche

Tapey wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Tapey wrote:

My personal opinion is it should only be illegal to make or sell drugs. using them should be legal.

How could you use drugs if nobody makes them? They wouldn't exist.

People would still make them. They do now after all.

But aren't you saying that they shouldn't? Why should it be illegal to make something for people that is legal for them to have or sell something to a them that's legal for them to buy?

Also, what if the prohibition is successful? You're basing your statements on the assumption that it will not be.

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Gauche wrote:Tapey

Gauche wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Tapey wrote:

My personal opinion is it should only be illegal to make or sell drugs. using them should be legal.

How could you use drugs if nobody makes them? They wouldn't exist.

People would still make them. They do now after all.

But aren't you saying that they shouldn't? Why should it be illegal to make something for people that is legal for them to have or sell something to a them that's legal for them to buy?

yes, they shouldn't make it. Its just a simple system to keep the jails nice and empty while stil puting drug dealers behind bars. Its not ment to be free of hypocracy.

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Why shouldn't they make

Why shouldn't they make drugs, because people get hurt by them? Should people not be allowed to make anything that others can hurt themselves with?

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Gauche wrote:Why shouldn't

Gauche wrote:

Why shouldn't they make drugs, because people get hurt by them? Should people not be allowed to make anything that others can hurt themselves with?

That would just be silly. The reason they shouldn't make or sell drugs is because drugs have the potential to harm more than just the user of the drugs. Add to this they serve no useful function. because of this it would be counter productive for a government to be seen to support this. exsesive drug use in a society would also be a bad thing for that society, therefore the government has to take action to prevent this from becoming the case. Making it illegal is one way of doing it.

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ZuS wrote:robj101 wrote:We

ZuS wrote:

robj101 wrote:

We will just have to agree to disagree.

No, that's what people who aren't discussing anything do - opinion is not an argument. We should use arguments untill we at least reach some consensus.

robj101 wrote:

I suppose putting meth on a store shelf in view of the general public might not make one whit of difference.

How about in a medicine cabinet out of reach of anyone but the clerk? Maybe with a special counter that makes sure none of it dissapears? Something like the ordinary medicine.

robj101 wrote:

If they do legalize marijuana I might start smokin it, I don't now, it's not legal and jail is not fun.

So what? I would rather have you smoking pot because you are free to do so, than have the largest prison population in the world, basically institutionalized slavery. I would also rather see you walking down the street with 10 joins lit - 5 in your mouth, 2 out of your ears, 2 in your nostrils and one out of your ass - than have South America suffer our "War on Drugs".

The phrasing and critical manner in your writing style says it is not open for debate.

Your last point, you apparently make an assumption that I am being negative, assuming I mean to say that I would be a dumbass and smoke weed because it's simply available. It's NOT readily available for me right now. I would have to talk to some people (probably shadier folks), find it, risk buying it and then hope I keep my job and that a drug test or circumstance would not arise that would get me busted. Nowhere did I say I thought weed was bad, simply that I do not smoke it currently.

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Here is an informative

Here is an informative read.

http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_projects/1999/drug/fp_drug_2001_a1_frep_05_en.pdf

It's kinda old though.

But this thread is supposed to be about marijuana and I doubt many who frequent this forum would disagree with making it legal.

As far as harder drugs and spending on the "war on drugs" I could see this changing from spending on this "war" to spending on state and federal rehab centers and yet more prisons and policing.

 

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Tapey wrote:Gauche wrote:Why

Tapey wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Why shouldn't they make drugs, because people get hurt by them? Should people not be allowed to make anything that others can hurt themselves with?

That would just be silly. The reason they shouldn't make or sell drugs is because drugs have the potential to harm more than just the user of the drugs. Add to this they serve no useful function. because of this it would be counter productive for a government to be seen to support this. exsesive drug use in a society would also be a bad thing for that society, therefore the government has to take action to prevent this from becoming the case. Making it illegal is one way of doing it.

What are these alleged harms? Does drug use cause people to harm others in a way that violates current laws? Which ones? Is it a certainty that everyone who uses drugs will break these laws or does the possibility exist that some will use drugs and not break them?

 

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Gauche wrote:Tapey

Gauche wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Why shouldn't they make drugs, because people get hurt by them? Should people not be allowed to make anything that others can hurt themselves with?

That would just be silly. The reason they shouldn't make or sell drugs is because drugs have the potential to harm more than just the user of the drugs. Add to this they serve no useful function. because of this it would be counter productive for a government to be seen to support this. exsesive drug use in a society would also be a bad thing for that society, therefore the government has to take action to prevent this from becoming the case. Making it illegal is one way of doing it.

What are these alleged harms? Does drug use cause people to harm others in a way that violates current laws? Which ones? Is it a certainty that everyone who uses drugs will break these laws or does the possibility exist that some will use drugs and not break them?

 

They make it more likely that you will fail in your duties to society. more likely to steal. They spread HIV/Aids. there are hundreds and im sure you have heard them all by now anyway. some do violate other laws. and no not everyone who uses drugs will cause these harms, but that doesn't matter, Its not about the individual, the individual on drugs doesn't matter, it never has and never will.

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Tapey wrote:They make it

Tapey wrote:

They make it more likely that you will fail in your duties to society.

Failing your duties to society doesn't necessarily imply criminal behavior. So you believe people should be arrested simply for being bad citizens even if they haven't actually broken any laws. One may use drugs and be a good citizen and an asset to society. Your argument suggests that they should be arrested because they could potentially become a bad citizen. What if one is a bad citizen for reasons that have nothing to do with drugs, should they also be arrested?

 

Quote:
more likely to steal.

Being poor makes one more likely to steal, should that be illegal?

 

Quote:
They spread HIV/Aids.

Unprotected sex spreads HIV should it be illegal?

 

Quote:
there are hundreds and im sure you have heard them all by now anyway. some do violate other laws. and no not everyone who uses drugs will cause these harms, but that doesn't matter, Its not about the individual, the individual on drugs doesn't matter, it never has and never will.

I have heard many of these and they are quite poor arguments. I'm surprised anyone on this website would find them compelling. Most of the people who have responded seem to believe that the argument for preventing harm to the individual is their weak hand and the argument for preventing harm to society is their strong hand. Both of these arguments are equally defective. Nothing you've mentioned so far is even a crime except stealing and I agree that if someone steals they should be penalized in some way but there are other things to consider here. For example the fact that there are many other factors associated with criminal behavior that are also associated with drug use.

Beyond that, according to census data only 17% of arrests are drug related. That means more than 80% of crimes have nothing to do with drugs. Furthermore, of the arrests that are drug related more than 80% of them are for violation of drug laws alone, not stealing, so I don't think the numbers support your case anyway but even if they did you would still be talking about arresting people for engaging in activity that has only a chance of causing them to behave in these ways.

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You could make everything

You could make everything legal, I mean, everyone is not going to be a pedophile right? Everyone is not just going to run out and murder people huh? Everyone will probably not go around stealing everyones shit. So legalize everything, make it interesting.

Seriously, we have to draw lines in society, some people want the lines really close, and some want them nearly out of sight. The extremely liberal tend to want them out of sight and the highly conservative want them close enough to touch.

As far as drugs like "meth" I have seen firsthand what it is easily capable of. It makes decent people steal, lie and in extreme cases kill. I know a guy that is one his third prison vacation, for making, using and distributing meth. At first I wondered what had happened to his arms, they are all burned up, he claimed it was some accident involving a fule line busting on a race car while he was working on it. Later we find out he was cooking meth in his car and had been rushed to the emergency room, and then the cops come and do a fukin sting operation at my job and bust him again.

I also know a clean cut opie taylor looking kid who has bitched in the past about how hard it is for him to get drugs because they think he must be a snitch, so he ends up getting busted forging prescriptions lol.

More than half the people who have worked for me have been meth heads. They are easily spotted by the nasty gummy shit buildup on their teeth and gums. They lie like pro's, then you catch them in the back room passing a broken lightbulb and a lighter around.

When you see 2 teens going to jail because they are meth heads who killed their grandparents, buried them in the yard and lived in their house collecting the social security checks it kinda makes it seem like meth can do very evil things to people.

Making hard drugs like this legal? From my personal experience no fukin way.

No they don't all lie cheat steal and kill, but it is another avenue that many will choose to travel.

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Gauche wrote:Failing your

Gauche wrote:

Failing your duties to society doesn't necessarily imply criminal behavior. So you believe people should be arrested simply for being bad citizens even if they haven't actually broken any laws. One may use drugs and be a good citizen and an asset to society. Your argument suggests that they should be arrested because they could potentially become a bad citizen. What if one is a bad citizen for reasons that have nothing to do with drugs, should they also be arrested?

I didn't say they should be arrested, I used useing drugs should be legal, making and selling should be illegal so there is no arresting. The people making and selling are arrested because they are increasing the likelihood and creating bad citizens.

 

Quote:

Being poor makes one more likely to steal, should that be illegal?

yes if it can be helped there shouldn't be a poor person in the society. but obviously that is unrealistic and no society in the world is rich enough to aviod having poor people.

 

Quote:

Unprotected sex spreads HIV should it be illegal?

yes, unless it is with thee intent of having children.

 

Quote:

 

I have heard many of these and they are quite poor arguments. I'm surprised anyone on this website would find them compelling. Most of the people who have responded seem to believe that the argument for preventing harm to the individual is their weak hand and the argument for preventing harm to society is their strong hand. Both of these arguments are equally defective. Nothing you've mentioned so far is even a crime except stealing and I agree that if someone steals they should be penalized in some way but there are other things to consider here. For example the fact that there are many other factors associated with criminal behavior that are also associated with drug use.

The fact that nothing i mentioned is crimanal behaviour is relivant here, i believe it is the function of the government to not only to punish crimanal behaviour but promote certain desireable was of living.

 

Being a junkie trippping balls all day should not be one of them, it should be discouraged therefore something needs to be done about it. making selling and making it illegal is one way.

 

Another aspect is that there is no garentee that you will commit further crimanal acts using the drugs cannot be punishable. however with making and selling can be punished because you are making and selling something which will has been known to cause to make people go out and steal.

Quote:


Beyond that, according to census data only 17% of arrests are drug related. That means more than 80% of crimes have nothing to do with drugs. Furthermore, of the arrests that are drug related more than 80% of them are for violation of drug laws alone, not stealing, so I don't think the numbers support your case anyway but even if they did you would still be talking about arresting people for engaging in activity that has only a chance of causing them to behave in these ways.

Do they really do and say, i was stealing because i needed money for crack? it is irrelivant though as stealing is a very small part of it.

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Tapey wrote:I didn't say

Tapey wrote:

I didn't say they should be arrested, I used useing drugs should be legal, making and selling should be illegal so there is no arresting. The people making and selling are arrested because they are increasing the likelihood and creating bad citizens.

So if people are bad citizens then anyone who facilitated it should be arrested. If I sit at home watching television and eating potato chips all day then Sony, Frito-lay and the director of CSI should be arrested.

 

Quote:

yes if it can be helped there shouldn't be a poor person in the society. but obviously that is unrealistic and no society in the world is rich enough to aviod having poor people.

But societies can eradicate drug use that
is why there are so many drug free societies.

 

Quote:

yes, unless it is with thee intent of having children.

So you're one of those people who dreams of an authoritarian paradise where the government micro-manages your sex life and all other behavior. Now I see why your view is so disconnected from reality.

 

Quote:

The fact that nothing i mentioned is crimanal behaviour is relivant here, i believe it is the function of the government to not only to punish crimanal behaviour but promote certain desireable was of living.

 

Being a junkie trippping balls all day should not be one of them, it should be discouraged therefore something needs to be done about it. making selling and making it illegal is one way.

 

Another aspect is that there is no garentee that you will commit further crimanal acts using the drugs cannot be punishable. however with making and selling can be punished because you are making and selling something which will has been known to cause to make people go out and steal.

Aside from it being logistically infeasible, it might not be the proper function of government to promote certain ways of living. It's not conducive to developing a situation in society where citizens enjoy personal freedom (which is also a desirable way of living and perhaps the most desirable) to arrest people because their behavior creates the potential for some else's undesirable behavior. his would bar the selling of almost anything and a myriad of other behavior which is neither illegal nor the governments business in the opinion of many, like provocative dress for example.

More damaging to your case I think is the fact that this argument actually works against itself. If it is true then those who promote prohibition should be arrested because prohibition creates the possibility of engaging in undesirable behavior that otherwise would not even exist like fighting over drug turf.

 

Quote:

Do they really do and say, i was stealing because i needed money for crack? it is irrelevant though as stealing is a very small part of it.

No, people probably don't say that they were stealing because of drugs. I was only pointing out that available statistical data doesn't actually support the case that drugs "make" you steal. You may accept that intuitively but as I said there are other factors associated with criminal behavior that are also associated with drug use and no causal link has been established.

 

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Gauche wrote:So if people

Gauche wrote:

So if people are bad citizens then anyone who facilitated it should be arrested. If I sit at home watching television and eating potato chips all day then Sony, Frito-lay and the director of CSI should be arrested.

thats being a good citizen supporting the economy. and no. drugs have no useful perpose and cause people to be bad citizens. its the fact that they have no useful purpose which is key here. you can say they help creativity but thats just balls.

 

Quote:

But societies can eradicate drug use that
is why there are so many drug free societies.

exactly

 

Quote:

So you're one of those people who dreams of an authoritarian paradise where the government micro-manages your sex life and all other behavior. Now I see why your view is so disconnected from reality.

now you are getting it. with the Aids rate in south africa (where i live) i choose authoritarian paradise over the aids rate. it is as high as 50% in some areas.

 

Quote:
]Aside from it being logistically infeasible, it might not be the proper function of government to promote certain ways of living. It's not conducive to developing a situation in society where citizens enjoy personal freedom (which is also a desirable way of living and perhaps the most desirable) to arrest people because their behavior creates the potential for some else's undesirable behavior. his would bar the selling of almost anything and a myriad of other behavior which is neither illegal nor the governments business in the opinion of many, like provocative dress for example.

More damaging to your case I think is the fact that this argument actually works against itself. If it is true then those who promote prohibition should be arrested because prohibition creates the possibility of engaging in undesirable behavior that otherwise would not even exist like fighting over drug turf.

oh you have personal freedom, drug use is just not something the government should promote or support. The thing is only ban selling  things that cause harm in others which have no other useful perpose.

 

Quote:
No, people probably don't say that they were stealing because of drugs. I was only pointing out that available statistical data doesn't actually support the case that drugs "make" you steal. You may accept that intuitively but as I said there are other factors associated with criminal behavior that are also associated with drug use and no causal link has been established.


 

granted

 

and no i can stop talking shit for a bit

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Tapey wrote:thats being a

Tapey wrote:

thats being a good citizen supporting the economy. and no. drugs have no useful perpose and cause people to be bad citizens. its the fact that they have no useful purpose which is key here. you can say they help creativity but thats just balls.

You support the economy even by buying things that are illegal. If supporting the economy is a usful purpose and makes you a good citizen then by your own argument drug users are already good citizens who support the economy and drug use should be promoted.

 

Quote:
Quote:

But societies can eradicate drug use that
is why there are so many drug free societies.

exactly

I was being facetious. There are no drug free societies.

 

Quote:

oh you have personal freedom, drug use is just not something the government should promote or support. The thing is only ban selling  things that cause harm in others which have no other useful perpose.

But you are ignoring the fact that your argument for prohibition also works against prohibition. Prohibition creates the possibility of engaging in bad behavior that wouldn't be possible without prohibition. By your own argument prohibition then shouldn't be promoted or supported.

Furthermore, you said that supporting the economy by buying things is a useful purpose. So by your rationale drug use should be supported simply because people can spend money on drugs.

 

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Tapey wrote:Gauche wrote:Why

Tapey wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Why shouldn't they make drugs, because people get hurt by them? Should people not be allowed to make anything that others can hurt themselves with?

That would just be silly. The reason they shouldn't make or sell drugs is because drugs have the potential to harm more than just the user of the drugs. Add to this they serve no useful function. because of this it would be counter productive for a government to be seen to support this. exsesive drug use in a society would also be a bad thing for that society, therefore the government has to take action to prevent this from becoming the case. Making it illegal is one way of doing it.

= Your opinion. The facts tell a different tale.

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I have to post it!

Tapey wrote:
Add to this they serve no useful function.

 


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B166ER wrote:Tapey wrote:

B166ER wrote:

Tapey wrote:
Add to this they serve no useful function.

 

to quote vastet

= Your opinion. The facts tell a different tale.

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
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Vastet wrote:Tapey

Vastet wrote:
Tapey wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Why shouldn't they make drugs, because people get hurt by them? Should people not be allowed to make anything that others can hurt themselves with?

That would just be silly. The reason they shouldn't make or sell drugs is because drugs have the potential to harm more than just the user of the drugs. Add to this they serve no useful function. because of this it would be counter productive for a government to be seen to support this. exsesive drug use in a society would also be a bad thing for that society, therefore the government has to take action to prevent this from becoming the case. Making it illegal is one way of doing it.

= Your opinion. The facts tell a different tale.

to quote yourself

= Your opinion. The facts tell a different tale.

 

In your opinion thats what the facts say. facts can be interpreted in many ways

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Gauche wrote: But you are

Gauche wrote:

 But you are ignoring the fact that your argument for prohibition also works against prohibition. Prohibition creates the possibility of engaging in bad behavior that wouldn't be possible without prohibition. By your own argument prohibition then shouldn't be promoted or supported.

Furthermore, you said that supporting the economy by buying things is a useful purpose. So by your rationale drug use should be supported simply because people can spend money on drugs.

 

Look gauche, we are not going to agree on this, so let me say this so im not even going to respond to anything you said it no longer serves any purpose im closed minded that way. So im skiping ahead to the part were im bored of this endlessness and say who should make and sell the drugs should it all be legal? The only way I think it would be fine to make and sell drugs is if it was heavily regulated by the government and indeed supervised by the government. Private companies doing it would have reason to try get people adicted and yes i think that would be bad. I think it is fair to say it would have to be through the government or a indipendant government appionted body. And this idea I do not like. Probably irrationally, but that is giving the government alot of power and that i do not think is a terribly good idea. is it better now probably not, get a wierd slightly creepy government in and who knows. All i know is on the continent on which i reside governments have been known to go a little crazy and stuff everything up. i suspect we are arguing from to very differant places

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
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Tapey wrote:= Your opinion.

Tapey wrote:

to quote yourself = Your opinion.

Wrong. Your opinion is not a fact. You haven't presented any facts against drugs, just opinions. That isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

Tapey wrote:
In your opinion thats what the facts say. facts can be interpreted in many ways

What facts? You haven't presented any.

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Kapkao
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