I need confirmation. and help.

Zanarkand
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I need confirmation. and help.

 

"Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith." --Paul Tillich

Is this true? I doubted because i wanted to know the truth. and i have always thought that

Faith does not give me the answers, it just stops me asking the questions.

i am confused right now.


cj
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I don't think so....

Zanarkand wrote:

 

"Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith." --Paul Tillich

Is this true? I doubted because i wanted to know the truth. and i have always thought that

Faith does not give me the answers, it just stops me asking the questions.

i am confused right now.

 

I'm not a philosopher, and there will probably be plenty who disagree with me.

I know a few people who have faith but also doubt.  I also know a lot people who have faith and have no doubts.  I don't know who Mr. Tillich is, but I don't think he is correct except for speaking of himself.  I'll bet he has doubts.

I think you are right in that for most people, faith means no more asking questions.  And I think that is a bad idea.  We must question and doubt and search for new answers.  Otherwise, we wouldn't be sitting in front of a computer right now talking to people around the world.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Zanarkand
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i am at a loss for words. i

i am at a loss for words. i was conversing with my college mate and we were talking about mother teresa. he quoted her saying; "

I know God will not give me anything I can't handle. I just wish that He didn't trust me so much. ~Mother Teresa "

and then i responded that well, according to her recently released diaries she had some serious doubt,

even disbelief as to the existence of the invisible man in the sky.

then he responded with a tillich quote.

 

cj wrote:

 I don't know who Mr. Tillich is, but I don't think he is correct except for speaking of himself.  I'll bet he has doubts.

i have never thought that doubt is an element of faith. i always thought it was an element of reason and rationality.

cj wrote:

I think you are right in that for most people, faith means no more asking questions.  And I think that is a bad idea.  We must question and doubt and search for new answers.  Otherwise, we wouldn't be sitting in front of a computer right now talking to people around the world.

 

 have you seen this ma'am?

i was watching a hitler marathon on nat geo when this commercial aired. this is a perfect example on why i choose not to cling on faith.

Not only can water float a boat, It can sink it also.


Jeffrick
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Atheistic NUN?

 

 

 

            You bet ya!!!  Clearly from her personal papers she had no belief in any god or jesus,  she also did not know how to walk away from the fame and money she got by pretending to be religious.

 

 

             She recieved millions of $$$ from around the world but rather then make any attempt to raise the living standards of Calcutta slum dwellers she invested in continuing the poverty.  The more we know about Teresa  the less saintly --  and more human --  she becomes.

 

 

             That commercial you showd seems perfect for your debate.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


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Zanarkand wrote: "Doubt

Zanarkand wrote:

 

"Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith." --Paul Tillich

 

I would love to see how he justifies this statement. Doubt is the opposite of faith by definition.

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


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There is a substantial body

There is a substantial body of Christian literature on that which St John of the Cross called "the dark night of the soul".  In fact, that is the title of what I consider to be his magnum opus.  Not an easy read by any means but well worth the effort of one sho is seeking. 

As far as the doubts of Mother Teresa, I would go striaght to the source.  Her private letters are available in book for under the title Mother Teresa:  Come Be My Light. 

For some reason it seems that the great Carmelite writers have the best grasp of this matter of doubt as a component of faith for which reason I have a particular affinity for Carmelite spirituality.  Others you might look into are St Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, and Gertrude Stein (Maria Benedicta of the Cross).  John Henry Cardinal Newman may have faced similar difficulties.  There are hints of that fact in some of his writings although he never addresses the issue explicitly.  "Ten thousand difficulties does not make one doubt."

To question, to doubt is not the same as to deny.  Relentless questioning reinforces faith, for one arrives at a point where the answers to the questions can no longer be found within the discipline being questioned.  One must, of necessity, turn to philosophy or metaphics.  I am therefore I think.

 

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Zanarkand wrote: "Doubt

Zanarkand wrote:

 

"Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith." --Paul Tillich

 

yes, it's true, for a certain kind of doubt.  this kind of doubt is the little voice in the back of your head that constantly tells you you're delusional, to which you keep saying, "shh!  shut up!"  i know this doubt was always an "element" of my faith, and yes, it disappears once you let go of the delusion, be it religion or anything else.

now, if by "doubt" you mean skepticism, then yes, this is an element of reason and utterly foreign to faith.

mr. tillich is playing fast and loose with his terminology, which should be expected from him.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Zanarkand wrote: "Doubt

Zanarkand wrote:

 

"Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith." --Paul Tillich

Is this true? I doubted because i wanted to know the truth. and i have always thought that

Faith does not give me the answers, it just stops me asking the questions.

i am confused right now.

 

You apparenlty saw evidence to the contrary making you doubt something, and if you really doubt it I don't think you can have genuine "faith" in it. Maybe "hope" or some such but not pure faith. If faith is clouded with doubt you are a skeptic.

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


iwbiek
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robj101 wrote:If faith is

robj101 wrote:

If faith is clouded with doubt you are a skeptic.

 

correction: if faith is clouded with doubt based on critical thinking, you're a skeptic.  if faith is clouded by doubt based on cognitive dissonance, you're not there yet.  that was my point.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Zanarkand wrote: "Doubt

Zanarkand wrote:

 "Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith." --Paul Tillich

Is this true? I doubted because i wanted to know the truth. and i have always thought that

Faith is the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence or at least the belief is not based on the evidence. To doubt something is to lack confidence in it or to find it unlikely. To say that doubting is compatible with having faith in something is completely incoherent. If you doubt something, then you don't believe it, so you don't have faith in it. If you have faith in something, then you believe it, so you don't doubt it. Ergo, doubting something that has no evidence to support is, by definition, a rejection of faith. 

And you should doubt faith based beliefs. Reason and evidence are the only things that can increase the probability of any claim being true. To believe in things based on faith is very ironic; it is to say that I hold this claim to be true even though there is no indication that the claim actually is true, simply because I want to. 

Quote:
Faith does not give me the answers, it just stops me asking the questions.

Lol. Well, this is true. Faith doesn't give you any answers. It just stops you from thinking. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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totus_tuus wrote:Relentless

totus_tuus wrote:
Relentless questioning reinforces faith

Any faith based belief, if it is actually a faith based belief, by definition, cannot be "reinforced" by anything other how much the believer wants to believe. Faith is belief independent of reason and evidence. So, reason and evidence cannot influence faith. In questioning a belief, you are going to evaluate its consistently, validity, etc. i.e. you are going to analyze the reasons and evidence supporting the belief.

So, if someone's faith based belief is "reinforced" through questioning, it doesn't demonstrate that questioning is an element of faith, it demonstrates that the believer is either practicing cognitive dissonance and cherry picking or they are using a completely different definition of faith than the one I'm using here.       

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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iwbiek wrote:robj101

iwbiek wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If faith is clouded with doubt you are a skeptic.

 

correction: if faith is clouded with doubt based on critical thinking, you're a skeptic.  if faith is clouded by doubt based on cognitive dissonance, you're not there yet.  that was my point.

Yea but I had assumed evidence was involved as I stated so, critical thinking was on my mind.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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robj101 wrote:iwbiek

robj101 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If faith is clouded with doubt you are a skeptic.

 

correction: if faith is clouded with doubt based on critical thinking, you're a skeptic.  if faith is clouded by doubt based on cognitive dissonance, you're not there yet.  that was my point.

Yea but I had assumed evidence was involved as I stated so, critical thinking was on my mind.

yeah, but i think our young gentleman is already beyond the area faith in any sense.  he's basically asking for feedback after having a wtf moment with a quote that's obviously paradoxical, asinine, and just plain devoid of any content.

imo, paul tillich was just one big wasted intellect.  that's what happens when you try to be an "existential theologian" or whatever the hell his bag was.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


robj101
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iwbiek wrote:robj101

iwbiek wrote:

robj101 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

robj101 wrote:

If faith is clouded with doubt you are a skeptic.

 

correction: if faith is clouded with doubt based on critical thinking, you're a skeptic.  if faith is clouded by doubt based on cognitive dissonance, you're not there yet.  that was my point.

Yea but I had assumed evidence was involved as I stated so, critical thinking was on my mind.

yeah, but i think our young gentleman is already beyond the area faith in any sense.  he's basically asking for feedback after having a wtf moment with a quote that's obviously paradoxical, asinine, and just plain devoid of any content.

imo, paul tillich was just one big wasted intellect.  that's what happens when you try to be an "existential theologian" or whatever the hell his bag was.

Yea word play does not win a debate. Facts remain. Word play can only distort and twist things so much before everyone realizes it's BS.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


cj
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Zanarkand wrote:  have you

Zanarkand wrote:

 have you seen this ma'am?

i was watching a hitler marathon on nat geo when this commercial aired. this is a perfect example on why i choose not to cling on faith.

 

Yes, I saw it on the other thread you posted.  I haven't seen it before as I don't watch TV - except on Hulu or like sites.  It is beautiful and I think very true.  Never stop doubting, never stop learning, never stop growing.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


robj101
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cj wrote:Zanarkand

cj wrote:

Zanarkand wrote:

 have you seen this ma'am?

i was watching a hitler marathon on nat geo when this commercial aired. this is a perfect example on why i choose not to cling on faith.

 

Yes, I saw it on the other thread you posted.  I haven't seen it before as I don't watch TV - except on Hulu or like sites.  It is beautiful and I think very true.  Never stop doubting, never stop learning, never stop growing.

No tv eh? Hum we have something in common, I too use hulu, youtube and other sites with video. In fact, I recently had my cable turned off completely. reading and internet, thats it. Real shame there aren't any good torrent sites left.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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i am actually having a great

i am actually having a great time right now because i have found a group here in my country that shares the same world view as i do. and they are of the same age range as i do too! around 15-20 years of age. i have conversed with individuals regarding religion and well, my college mate was one that stopped me off my tracks.

i stopped debating further because 'twas the first time that we talked about it. and it was awkward since he was one of my closest friends. i dont want our friendship to have a "dent" just because he is nuts and i am not.

our conversation ended with him saying " Everyone has doubts sometimes in their life, agnostics or atheists just have them most of the time, (and a hahaha) "

okay he does have a point. teresa had those most of the time tho'

 

Not only can water float a boat, It can sink it also.