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Sai Baba and Christianity, Why Miracles should not be Believed

Posted on: April 20, 2010 - 12:30am
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Sai Baba and Christianity, Why Miracles should not be Believed

I came about this topic of Sai Baba via Youtube videos of Sam Harris at a couple of presentations.  He cites Sai as evidence that even assuming the Gospels are accurate eyewitness accounts there'd still be room to doubt miraculous claims.

Here's a link to what appears to be the official site of this godman, straight to the page on miracles, likely the most amusing page of the site:

http://www.saibaba.ws/miracles.htm

Also, here is a link to the video of Harris if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqTysSMQpk

 

My question concerning this person deals especially with the evidence of his miracles--something which likely Christianity doesn't even possess with the Gospel accounts--namely, contemporaneous, living eyewitnesses.  It would seem from the research here and there I've done on this topic that there is far more evidence for this person's divinity (solely as evidenced through the miracles purported by those that believe them to be) than there is for Christianity.

Yet I, and I am almost certain of this, all of you and myself, will continue to doubt, perhaps even in spite of previous claims you may have made (I have made them as well) to the effect of "well, if there were only living eyewitnesses that made the claims" or "if only there were video footage of Jesus' resurrection," we might come to believe a given person to be a supernatural force.

For the sake of discussion, and to perhaps keep this more analogous to Christianity, disregard the videos of him showcasing his somewhat obvious and cheap magic tricks and focus instead on the personal testimony of his supposed divinity.

The question that I'm going the long way of asking is what criteria is it proper to expect for claims of the supernatural? Given, as I have heard it said on this forum, that UFOs (not supernatural but extraordinary) also share a large body of mostly living eyewitness testimonies, why is that insufficient to warrant belief in the things they claim to evidence?

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Posted on: April 30, 2010 - 6:52pm #51
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Luminon

Luminon wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Do me next lumi, what info do you need?  It would be interesting if I wrote down a paragraph or 2 describing my personality and lifestyle and sent it to a couple other members, then after your reading on this thread they can post my pre-description below your/your dad's reading without my tempering with it.  This would be a fun exercise. 

Fun exercise perhaps, but not for me. Having the horoscope without applying it to you is like having a key without lock. It's very diffcult to deduce anything.

 

I'm not trying to get you to do something you don't want to do, I'm just replicating the scenario in the video, the readings were done all just from the fact sheet.  How's this, I'll list the info, it WILL be correct as I am much more interested in this being a fair study, and we can go from their.  If you need time, take it.  I'll wright up a blurb about myself and send it to the RRS' address, after you post your reading (If you choose to do so) they can post my blurb after to be reviewed.   Some things I will touch on are my distinct personality traits, my interests, hobbies, lifestyle, strength and weaknesses etc...

Luminon wrote:

 How can I know what is your personal situation?

  

I thought that was the point!

Luminon wrote:

With Jonathan it was possible, because he shared some his problems, he's physically disabled and trapped in very religious family with whom he obviously strongly disagrees on the ideologic basis.

  

Well I can give you some basics but I shouldn't tell you too much that would ruin the exercise.  I am 25, born in Surrey BC, I was raised strickly religious, I also strongly disagree with what my parents taught me, I am as far as I know healthy and that's about as far as we should go. 

Luminon wrote:

But potentially, I need your exact time of birth up to minute. And city of birth. (don't give GPS, city is easier to type in) You can give me these data.

 

Birth city: Surrey, B.C.

Date of bith:  June /12/1984

Time of birth: 8pm

I know this might sound funny but it's true I was born at 8pm exactly.  Does it have to be to the exact minute?  Im 99% sure it was 8pm on the dot but if it has to be perfect I can contact my mom to make sure it wasn't 8:01 or something.  If you do choose to do a serious reading I can have my birth certificate listed as evidence and we can do this right.  I would be amazed if you were able to read me as well as the astrologer in the video, and in a way I want you to be able to, just to be puzzled. 

 


Posted on: May 1, 2010 - 5:09pm #52
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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:I'm

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

I'm not trying to get you to do something you don't want to do, I'm just replicating the scenario in the video, the readings were done all just from the fact sheet.  How's this, I'll list the info, it WILL be correct as I am much more interested in this being a fair study, and we can go from their.  If you need time, take it.  I'll wright up a blurb about myself and send it to the RRS' address, after you post your reading (If you choose to do so) they can post my blurb after to be reviewed.   Some things I will touch on are my distinct personality traits, my interests, hobbies, lifestyle, strength and weaknesses etc...

OK, I'm just trying to avoid what happened last time, when everyone flooded me with horoscope demands. So I it seems I'm done for now, I did a handful of readings separately and my capacities are full.
When you will write about yourself, make sure to describe your personal history in family, how did you get along with your folks and people in general.
NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Birth city: Surrey, B.C.

Date of bith:  June /12/1984

Time of birth: 8pm

I know this might sound funny but it's true I was born at 8pm exactly.  Does it have to be to the exact minute?  Im 99% sure it was 8pm on the dot but if it has to be perfect I can contact my mom to make sure it wasn't 8:01 or something.  If you do choose to do a serious reading I can have my birth certificate listed as evidence and we can do this right.  I would be amazed if you were able to read me as well as the astrologer in the video, and in a way I want you to be able to, just to be puzzled. 

Thank you. I love when people have exact minute of birth. Sometimes the time is important because some fast "planets" like Sun or Luna are just about to change their aspects. But exact minute is also important, because it allows me to use some advanced techniques. It's also good you said it's exactly 8 PM, I really wasn't sure. But generally, the time tolerance matters if it's more than 2-5 minutes. Not your case, probably.


Well, I think we can officially start the test. I wrote what I could, for our modest purposes. Send your text to someone trustworthy and let me know. I will post my text and then your description of self will be published. If I understand it correctly. Be sure to provide me a plenty of feedback and your opinion after you read it.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Posted on: May 3, 2010 - 12:23am #53
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Ok so we need a trusted

Ok so we need a trusted third party to hold my full bio before you post your reading.  Any takers?


Posted on: May 3, 2010 - 2:19am #54
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I'll do it, if Luminon

I'll do it, if Luminon accepts.

 

I pinky-swear to be impartial.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Posted on: May 3, 2010 - 2:25am #55
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mellestad wrote:I'll do it,

mellestad wrote:

I'll do it, if Luminon accepts.

 

I pinky-swear to be impartial.

I would expect if you cheat, you will publicly remove said pinky, cut it into two equal parts and mail one of each said part to each other member of said agreement.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


Posted on: May 3, 2010 - 2:56am #56
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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:Ok

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Ok so we need a trusted third party to hold my full bio before you post your reading.  Any takers?

Natural is the best candidate, I think. If he's not around momentarily then perhaps Cpt. Pineapple. And Butterbattle seems like a good guy. Only one post in this topic, the less interested, the better.

 


mellestad wrote:

I'll do it, if Luminon accepts.

I pinky-swear to be impartial.

Well, you weren't impartial, to start with.  Considering what variety of people is on the internet, you might even not have a pinky thanks to some accident many years ago Smiling

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Posted on: May 3, 2010 - 3:30am #57
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Luminon

Luminon wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Ok so we need a trusted third party to hold my full bio before you post your reading.  Any takers?

Natural is the best candidate, I think. If he's not around momentarily then perhaps Cpt. Pineapple. And Butterbattle seems like a good guy. Only one post in this topic, the less interested, the better.

 


mellestad wrote:

I'll do it, if Luminon accepts.

I pinky-swear to be impartial.

Well, you weren't impartial, to start with.  Considering what variety of people is on the internet, you might even not have a pinky thanks to some accident many years ago Smiling

 

Fair enough.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Posted on: May 3, 2010 - 9:44pm #58
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You get to give the go ahead

You get to give the go ahead on who you want to hold it Lumi.    Whoever does it send your email to:

[email protected]  an email I no longer use. 

I'll message you back the info.   Make sure you confirm to lumi that you've recieved the message before he posts the reading.


Posted on: May 5, 2010 - 2:10pm #59
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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:You

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

You get to give the go ahead on who you want to hold it Lumi.    Whoever does it send your email to:

[email protected]  an email I no longer use. 

I'll message you back the info.   Make sure you confirm to lumi that you've recieved the message before he posts the reading.

Natural didn't respond yet, I'll contact Cpt. Pineapple.


 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 3:44am #60
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Luminon shouldn't be able to

Luminon shouldn't be able to choose the person read, for the same reason that Uri Geller shouldn't be allowed to bend his own spoons in a controlled test.

 

As you were....


Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 4:27am #61
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11111011 wrote:Luminon

11111011 wrote:

Luminon shouldn't be able to choose the person read, for the same reason that Uri Geller shouldn't be allowed to bend his own spoons in a controlled test.

 

As you were....

Why?  I'm not a trick spoon.  And he didn't choose me,  I asked to be read.


Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 1:53pm #62
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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

11111011 wrote:

Luminon shouldn't be able to choose the person read, for the same reason that Uri Geller shouldn't be allowed to bend his own spoons in a controlled test.

 

As you were....

Why?  I'm not a trick spoon.  And he didn't choose me,  I asked to be read.

 

 

Yes, but hypothetically he could have declined several offers in the past and accepted yours because you are an easy read for one reason or another.

 

It's possible that you are in cahoots (pre-bent spoon; audience plants usually volunteer, no?), but unlikely; either way, to really be valid, it should be several people he has never met or known of (beyond the information he says he requires), and random.

I'd help set up an experiment if I thought it would help (I could easily acquire dozens of bios and birth dates in under a day), but I don't think it would convince him when it fails (either distrust of me, or some other rationalization).

This just doesn't seem to have a purpose...


Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 2:22pm #63
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Blake

Blake wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

11111011 wrote:

Luminon shouldn't be able to choose the person read, for the same reason that Uri Geller shouldn't be allowed to bend his own spoons in a controlled test.

 

As you were....

Why?  I'm not a trick spoon.  And he didn't choose me,  I asked to be read.

 

 

Yes, but hypothetically he could have declined several offers in the past and accepted yours because you are an easy read for one reason or another.

 

It's possible that you are in cahoots (pre-bent spoon; audience plants usually volunteer, no?), but unlikely; either way, to really be valid, it should be several people he has never met or known of (beyond the information he says he requires), and random.

I'd help set up an experiment if I thought it would help (I could easily acquire dozens of bios and birth dates in under a day), but I don't think it would convince him when it fails (either distrust of me, or some other rationalization).

This just doesn't seem to have a purpose...

No more than to have some fun.  Do you have fun? Sure I could be in cahoots with lumi,  lumi could also probably find a good description of me based on my posts in the past if he really wanted to do some digging.  I don't think he's the type to do that though, I think lumi REALLY believes he can do it and doesn't need to resort to trickery.  Given the way lumi represents himself you could argue he his delusional much easier than that he is a charlotten, but I see no reason to believe either.  I think I've done a good jod trying to make the test as fair as it could be over the internet.   


Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 5:26pm #64
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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:No

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

No more than to have some fun.  Do you have fun? Sure I could be in cahoots with lumi,  lumi could also probably find a good description of me based on my posts in the past if he really wanted to do some digging.  I don't think he's the type to do that though, I think lumi REALLY believes he can do it and doesn't need to resort to trickery.  Given the way lumi represents himself you could argue he his delusional much easier than that he is a charlotten.  I think I've done a good jod trying to make the test as fair as it could be over the internet.   

You're correct, I want to do real astrology, not fake astrology. Fake astrology doesn't provide solutions to people's problems. Real astrology is actually not that diffcult, people always mess up the same things, like relationships, self-value, ideology, family, work, and so on. Horoscope then provides details. I've done some analyses to people with even much less data and they all didn't spare praise and thanked me very much. Of course, they weren't specialized critical thinkers. People like you appear in highly religious environment, and here people are usually lukewarm about everything, religion and skepticism alike.

Honestly, I've read your introduction when you got here, but I already forgot most of it and didn't read it again. If it's supposed to be a challenge and fun, so be it. I'm more worried about finding someone to cooperate as a control, it seems I have to try one more person, cpt Pineapple can't use personal messages.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Posted on: May 7, 2010 - 12:30am #65
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I'm willing to do it, and

I'm willing to do it, and have enabled the "contact settings" in my account which will send the message to my e-mail [unless the contact form is disabled too]

 

So if NMCP and Lumi are willing to do it.

 

 

What's the plan? If NMCP wants to do it and sends me the info, then I post here I got it, then Lumi creates a reading topic then I post the info on request?

 

 

Or Lumi and NMCP send me the info [the reading and bio] and then I just post them both when I got both?

 

 

 

 

 


Posted on: May 7, 2010 - 3:33am #66
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:I'm

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I'm willing to do it, and have enabled the "contact settings" in my account which will send the message to my e-mail [unless the contact form is disabled too]

So if NMCP and Lumi are willing to do it. 

What's the plan? If NMCP wants to do it and sends me the info, then I post here I got it, then Lumi creates a reading topic then I post the info on request? 

Or Lumi and NMCP send me the info [the reading and bio] and then I just post them both when I got both?

I think the faster way is that we both send the texts to you and then you post them both in a new topic. This way me and NMCP won't be able to edit the texts.  OP can't be edited I think, and neither me or NMCP should have both texts at once. I'll send the text soon and I hope NMCP will follow, unless he has any objections.


 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Posted on: May 7, 2010 - 5:00pm #67
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I guess the "contact" button

I guess the "contact" button goes straight to my inbox, because I now have 3 messages, and nothing in my e-mail.

 

 

 


Posted on: May 8, 2010 - 12:35pm #68
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:I guess

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I guess the "contact" button goes straight to my inbox, because I now have 3 messages, and nothing in my e-mail.

LOL... We both probably sent the message through View -> Write message, not through the Contact window. There the button directly says "send e-mail" and there's my e-mail up there. So check out your mailbox and hopefully NMCP will also do the same.


 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Posted on: May 8, 2010 - 1:03pm #69
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Luminon wrote:Cpt_pineapple

Luminon wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I guess the "contact" button goes straight to my inbox, because I now have 3 messages, and nothing in my e-mail.

LOL... We both probably sent the message through View -> Write message, not through the Contact window. There the button directly says "send e-mail" and there's my e-mail up there. So check out your mailbox and hopefully NMCP will also do the same.


 

 

Sorry guys Im not sure of what you are doing here, Im not the best at computers and I dont know the site very well.


Posted on: May 8, 2010 - 2:36pm #70
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Luminon, I got the

Luminon, I got the e-mail.

 

NMCP use this link

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/user/5978/contact

 

then send the bio then I'll post both, and see if he's accurate Smiling

 

 

 


Posted on: May 8, 2010 - 3:03pm #71
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Luminon,

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Luminon, I got the e-mail.

 

NMCP use this link

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/user/5978/contact

 

then send the bio then I'll post both, and see if he's accurate Smiling

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Done.  Good luck lumi!


Posted on: May 8, 2010 - 3:23pm #72
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I have posted both

I have posted both

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20368

 

 

 


Posted on: May 13, 2010 - 1:54pm #73
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Sai Baba is fraud

11111011 wrote:

I came about this topic of Sai Baba via Youtube videos of Sam Harris at a couple of presentations.  He cites Sai as evidence that even assuming the Gospels are accurate eyewitness accounts there'd still be room to doubt miraculous claims.

Here's a link to what appears to be the official site of this godman, straight to the page on miracles, likely the most amusing page of the site:

http://www.saibaba.ws/miracles.htm

Also, here is a link to the video of Harris if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqTysSMQpk

 

My question concerning this person deals especially with the evidence of his miracles--something which likely Christianity doesn't even possess with the Gospel accounts--namely, contemporaneous, living eyewitnesses.  It would seem from the research here and there I've done on this topic that there is far more evidence for this person's divinity (solely as evidenced through the miracles purported by those that believe them to be) than there is for Christianity.

Yet I, and I am almost certain of this, all of you and myself, will continue to doubt, perhaps even in spite of previous claims you may have made (I have made them as well) to the effect of "well, if there were only living eyewitnesses that made the claims" or "if only there were video footage of Jesus' resurrection," we might come to believe a given person to be a supernatural force.

For the sake of discussion, and to perhaps keep this more analogous to Christianity, disregard the videos of him showcasing his somewhat obvious and cheap magic tricks and focus instead on the personal testimony of his supposed divinity.

The question that I'm going the long way of asking is what criteria is it proper to expect for claims of the supernatural? Given, as I have heard it said on this forum, that UFOs (not supernatural but extraordinary) also share a large body of mostly living eyewitness testimonies, why is that insufficient to warrant belief in the things they claim to evidence?

Years back Sai Baba was caught on camera doing a trick to prepare a gold chain for one of his devotees.  It was all over in the news then.  Surprisingly, a lot of people still admire and follow him.  Human mind is very unpredictable.  A lot of people are totally irrational that helps these crooks.  Running a religious institution is one of the most successful and profitable businesses out there.


Posted on: April 24, 2011 - 3:14pm #74
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Well, he's dead now

Well, Sai Baba, venerated by over a million people as a living god, is now dead.   According to Randi's post (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1290-another-baba-leaves-the-scene.html ), Baba's mother claimed he was immaculately conceived. 

How long before someone claims he's resurrected, or reincarnated in someone new?

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Posted on: April 26, 2011 - 7:18am #75
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They're on the case

zarathustra wrote:

How long before someone claims he's resurrected, or reincarnated in someone new?

 

Not long probably as preparations are already under way.

 

 

extracts from:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/24/sri-sathya-sai-baba-dies

 

"Sai has not gone anywhere. Wait 48 hours. He will be back," Vandana Bhalla, a 38-year-old housewife in the Indian capital's middle-class Ashok Vihar neighbourhood told the Guardian.

 

Sai Baba had predicted his own death in 2019 but said that, having been reborn as the second reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi, he would be reborn as the holy man's third and final reincarnation in 2023 in a small village in the state of Karnataka. His followers claim that, as he has died earlier than foreseen, he could return as early as next year.

 

 

 


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