Something new: ten word debating

Presuppositionalist
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Something new: ten word debating

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Yes, they do.  Do some

Yes, they do. 

Do some research... (can't explain in ten)


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

no comprendo

Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Craig's Kalam.

Craig's argument dies by its own hand - examine the premises.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

no comprendo

Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Craig's Kalam.

Don't understand because what caused god. Circular argument. Bad argument.

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The OP and his first post

The OP and his first post does not make any sense they thread should close  


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

There must be a first cause, aka God.

Your turn.

Then what caused god?

 

Your turn!!!  Here I'll awnser me for you.

 

"God had no first cause because he exists out of time and space and created everything"

 

Wow! and you are 100% sure of this, how exactly?

 

"Because it says so in the (insert holy book of choice)"

 

Ahh,  Great argument, very original, thank you for enlightening me. 

 

 


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God didn't create the

God didn't create the universe - It is attributed to him.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

There must be a first cause, aka God.

Your turn.

You assert a prior and then exclude your conclusion.

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

There must be a first cause, aka God.

Then there must be a final effect, aka The End.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Actual infinite is silly.

 

So god being infinite is silly, right?


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v4ultingbassist

v4ultingbassist wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Actual infinite is silly.

 

So god being infinite is silly, right?

Bingo!  You cant have infinite wisdom, power, or presence

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Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."


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Information totality. 

Chronology misrepresented. 

Information totality:  Objective genesis is impossible; relativistically inherent.


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We will never fully

We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.


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robj101 wrote:We will never

robj101 wrote:

We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.

 

At least not in my time here.


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robj101 wrote:We will never

robj101 wrote:

We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.

 

You don't know that.  Unless you mean us as in me and you, but us as in inteligent life on this planet you don't know that forsure.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

no comprendo

Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Craig's Kalam.

Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
So who made God?

God is necessary by definition. He depends on nothing.

Invalid. Necessity is attribute to be proved, not just defined.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Your definition, 

Anselm's. The Bible's: I AM WHO AM.

Quote:
all need first cause so does god.

Begins to exist.

Anselm most stupid argument ever. Invalid at every level.

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BobSpence1

BobSpence1 wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

no comprendo

Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Craig's Kalam.

Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.

Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory?  Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:BobSpence1

mellestad wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

no comprendo

Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Craig's Kalam.

Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.

Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory?  Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?

it is an empirical observation, which directly refutes the assertion that everything we observe has a cause, if that is treated as an empirical fact about the Universe, as a premise for the first cause argument. 

We don't need to prove it, it is prima facie evidence that 'everything that begins to exist has a cause' needs to be demonstrated, and can't be assumed as an axiom.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

robj101 wrote:

We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.

 

You don't know that.  Unless you mean us as in me and you, but us as in inteligent life on this planet you don't know that forsure.

I'm pretty sure, the sun will burn out long before we approach the knowledge of what we really are and why. What we really are may be so base and simple, or it could be a highly complicated matter. This is why man created God after all, helps simplify things. Oops that's more than 10 words, but so was yours =)

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

There must be a first cause, aka God.

Your turn.

Cause not necessarily greater than effect. Infinite causal chain not necessarily infinite in time.

(sorry couldn't get it down to ten words, but it needed to be said. Arguments based on impossibility of infinite regress are not valid)

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

There must be a first cause, aka God.

Your turn.

Naked assertion. No proof that first cause must be God.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

free_thinker wrote:

What makes you so certain that this "first cause" was god?

not mechanical => free

Powerful cause outside spacetime (obvious), free = God.

Invalid. Causes are not necessarily mechanical or physical.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Presuppositionalist has yet

Presuppositionalist has yet to post a logically valid argument.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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 Non-sequiters plus naked

 Non-sequiters plus naked assertions do not make valid arguments.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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robj101 wrote:We will never

robj101 wrote:

We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.

 

Speak for yourself.  Statement of faith contrary to rational evidence.


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mellestad wrote:Isn't that

mellestad wrote:

Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory?  Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?

 

No. Bell's proven for reference frames.  Learn physics and logic.


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 Presuppositionalist's

 Presuppositionalist's world-view is based on a series of invalid arguments.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

free_thinker wrote:

What makes you so certain that this "first cause" was god?

not mechanical => free

Powerful cause outside spacetime (obvious), free = God.

Outside space-time not necessarily God. Free = random.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

free_thinker wrote:

"Not mechanical?"

Assumption.

The leading hypothesis is that quantum fluctuation caused it.

Oh? Then why wasn't creation sooner or later? Sounds fishy.

Timing of creation event is governed by quantum random process

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BobSpence1 wrote:Outside

BobSpence1 wrote:

Outside space-time not necessarily God. Free = random.

Further: !XYZTetc.=DNE.  Relativistic information yielded from variable input only.


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BobSpence1 wrote:Timing of

BobSpence1 wrote:

Timing of creation event is governed by quantum random process

Chronological position nonexistent in regards to relative genesis of spacetime.


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Blake wrote:robj101

Blake wrote:

robj101 wrote:

We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.

 

Speak for yourself.  Statement of faith contrary to rational evidence.

To exactly what evidence do you refer good sir.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
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robj101 wrote:To exactly

robj101 wrote:

To exactly what evidence do you refer good sir.

We largely do.  Plot T v.s 'gaps' in our lifetime.


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This format has some real

This format has some real benefit - it gets Presup to crystallize his various 'arguments' and makes it easier to expose the flaws without letting him obfuscate the weaknesses in a lot of verbiage.

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:Needs to be

BobSpence1 wrote:

Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.

AHHA!!! GOD CAUSES QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS!!!


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robj101

robj101 wrote:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

robj101 wrote:

We will never fully understand the universe, I accept this.

 

You don't know that.  Unless you mean us as in me and you, but us as in inteligent life on this planet you don't know that forsure.

I'm pretty sure, the sun will burn out long before we approach the knowledge of what we really are and why. 

 

So what if the sun burns out?   That is estimated at about what 4.5 billlion years in the future and we are in the present working on putting people on mars.  Can you imagine where we could be by then, most likely dead ofcourse but if we can travel into space and avoid the complete anihalation of our species by some disaster we could live on.  And who knows how long we could live on for, and what knowledge we could aquire. 


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free_thinker

free_thinker wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Needs to be proved. Quantum effects have no known cause.

AHHA!!! GOD CAUSES QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS!!!

 

Former inaccurate.  Later False.  Cause implicit in many-worlds relativity.


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:So

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

So what if the sun burns out?   That is estimated at about what 4.5 billlion years in the future and we are in the present working on putting people on mars.  Can you imagine where we could be by then, most likely dead ofcourse but if we can travel into space and avoid the complete anihalation of our species by some disaster we could live on.  And who knows how long we could live on for, and what knowledge we could aquire.

Undecanymic!  Use ten words!

Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.


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Waffles are good.  God

Waffles are good.  God isn't a waffle.  I'm hungry.


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Blake wrote: Undecanymic! 

Blake wrote:

 

Undecanymic!  Use ten words!

Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.

My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:My

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?

Accusative statement.  Adjective, not characterized as being of ten words.


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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Blake wrote:

 

Undecanymic!  Use ten words!

Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.

My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?

I can't find it either...un is "not", deca is "ten", and "nym" is a mail relay server.  So you weren't using 10 mail relay servers.

I can buy that.

And please don't use mine as a mail relay server.  But I think Sendmail is patched. Smiling

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kidvelvet wrote:I can't find

kidvelvet wrote:

I can't find it either...un is "not", deca is "ten", and "nym" is a mail relay server.  So you weren't using 10 mail relay servers.

Suffix: -onym; word.  Roughly Deca-onym.  Coined for this purpose.


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Blake wrote:kidvelvet

Blake wrote:

kidvelvet wrote:

I can't find it either...un is "not", deca is "ten", and "nym" is a mail relay server.  So you weren't using 10 mail relay servers.

Suffix: -onym; word.  Roughly Deca-onym.  Coined for this purpose.

Ah, a new word was made! Smiling

I am still trying to integrate "oxt" into my daily language.

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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Blake wrote:

 

Undecanymic!  Use ten words!

Lifespan of an ant likely sufficient.

My bad, forgot format, what the heck does "Undecanymic" mean?

 

LOL cute. It seems to be a word for "not ten words-y enough" Sticking out tongue

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Blake wrote:mellestad

Blake wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Isn't that sort of like an atheist of the gaps theory?  Would it even be possible to prove that quantum effects are causless?

 

No. Bell's proven for reference frames.  Learn physics and logic.

Which is why I asked a question.  Don't be a prick.  If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.

So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?

I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work.  How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause?  It seems to me like there are plenty of things we don't know the causes of, but we don't assume they are causless.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:Which is why

mellestad wrote:

Which is why I asked a question.  Don't be a prick.  If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.

Undecanymic!  For f*ck's sake.

 

Quote:
So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?

Neither.

Quote:
I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work.  How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause?

Bell's!

Learn to Google.  PLEASE!


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Blake wrote:mellestad

Blake wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Which is why I asked a question.  Don't be a prick.  If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.

Undecanymic!  For f*ck's sake.

 

Quote:
So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?

Neither.

Quote:
I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work.  How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause?

Bell's!

Learn to Google.  PLEASE!

Uh-huh.  http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath521/kmath521.htm It is all so clear to me now.

Like I said, maybe Bob or someone else can actually take a stab at answering my question instead of telling me to take a physics course.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:Blake

mellestad wrote:

Blake wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Which is why I asked a question.  Don't be a prick.  If you can't restrain yourself, let Bob answer.

Undecanymic!  For f*ck's sake.

 

Quote:
So research has shown a) We don't know the cause of quantum fluctiation or b) We know it is causless?

Neither.

Quote:
I am confused about how you would know something is without cause, instead of simply being ignorant of the underlying forces at work.  How do you prove a lack of cause is because there is no cause?

Bell's!

Learn to Google.  PLEASE!

Uh-huh.  http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath521/kmath521.htm It is all so clear to me now.

Like I said, maybe Bob or someone else can actually take a stab at answering my question instead of telling me to take a physics course.

My basic response was in post #69.

There could indeed be an underlying process 'explaining' the randomness. I think this is akin to the 'Hidden Variable" alternative to explain many of the weird manifestations of QT.

I imagine the possibility of a 'sea' of colliding sub-sub-atomic particles  , like the molecules in a gas. The individual impacts of such particles on some larger entity would be essentially random, so close to random as truly doesn't matter. A random impact of sufficient size and 'direction' (insofar as that is meaningful in this 'particle-sea' will trigger a radioactive decay, or whatever other 'quantum' event is under consideration.

Doesn't really need to be that specific explanation, maybe the 'quantum foam', but that is the sort of thing which would quite plausibly explain the random 'uncaused' events of QT.

It doesn't quite explain the origin of the random sea, but if anything is assumed to have just always existed, it is arguable infinitely simpler than a God, so is certainly no less plausible than 'God' as an explanation, arguably infinitely more plausible.

However you spin it, Quantum observations mean that any simplistic assertions about cause and effect cannot be assumed to be unquestionable truths.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology