The problem of evil

Fortunate_Son
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The problem of evil

Atheist: If God exists, why does he allow evil to happen?

Theist: Why shouldn't He?

A: He is supposed to be an eternally loving God isn't he?  Why would he allow innocent people to suffer?

T: Due to original sin, we live in a fallen creation.  God created people in His image.  In order to do that, he had to allow mankind to have a will.  But by logical necessity, man could not be perfect, otherwise, man would be identical to God himself.  Therefore, mankind had the capacity to fall short of God's glory and choose to go against Him.  Mankind chose to do that and introduced evil into the world.  Today, we are part of a species that has an inherent propensity to disobey God.

A: But if God created us, and God is all-knowing, he would have known that we were going to disobey him.  Why would he allow original sin to happen if he is such a good God?

T: God created a universe that was distinct from Him.  By logical necessity, it must be imperfect or it would be identical to God himself.  It is not reasonable to ask a theist what God's motives are, as we cannot guess God's motives anymore than we can objectively judge the motives of any other person.  But even without original sin, the world is imperfect.

A: The world is imperfect, but it could still do without things like the Holocaust, or the Fall, earthquakes, floods, etc.  Why would an all-loving God not intervene on such things?

T: Maybe he does.  Maybe there are worse things that could happen which God prevented from happening.  You have no way of knowing either way.  But we are also observing wicked things from the perspective of a finite being.  A little kid who drops his ice cream will become upset like his whole world was about to end.  Only when he becomes an adult does he realize how frivolous the issue was.  Perhaps what we find horrific means very little in the context of eternity.  Live your life in this world for something even greater, only then will you find objective meaning to your existence here.

A: Are you telling me that we should just turn a blind eye to evil because our existence here is meaningless?

T: Not at all.  I'm saying that we must not view God from the perspective of a finite human being.  We have a desire to prevent things like the Holocaust.  We will do all we can to prevent such an evil.  As well we should.  But an eternal being such as God may have bigger fish to fry.  We must remember that foresight is not causation and allowing something does not necessitate that someone is okay with it.  God permits sin.  But from that it does not follow that he is okay with it nor does it follow that he causes it.

A: Well if I created something that was going to cause destruction, knew that it would, and then allowed it, I would be evil.

T: God created people with free choice.  If you have free choice, you are automatically responsible for what you do.  If you created something that you knew would choose to cause destruction, then you wouldn't be considered responsible.  And God may be doing something about it right now.  You don't know.  This is why faith is necessary.. because we cannot have an exhaustive understanding of his nature.  We can only trust Him in the face of uncertainty, using what He has revealed to us as our fundamental basis.  You must also realize that God is timeless, and he does not view things in the context of future events.  He does not see things before they happen.  He witnesses everything in one present moment. 

A: Well I think your God is evil.  He should not have created the world if he knew that it was going to be this bad for people.

T: It is also very good for a lot of people.  Put your trust in God and then you may have redemption from the evil of the world with the chance for everlasting life in a place where no evil exists.  Live only for this world and you'll be lost.  Put this world in the proper perspective and only then will it have objective meaning.


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There is no such thing as

There is no such thing as "Original Sin".  That's a purely Christian invention to explain why people need to have Jesus make their lives better.  Not that we do, just saying.

The original concept of "sin" is "missing the mark" -- you try to do the right thing, but you make a mistake.  You've "missed the mark".

What should you do?

Let's look at this rationally.

Let's say that you want to be a good guitar player.

You pick up your guitar and you start to strum.  Except, the guitar is out of tune.  That's a "sin" -- if you want to be a good guitar player, you should make sure it's in tune.  So, tune the guitar and go again.

Now that the guitar is in tune, you start playing again.  Except that you forgot to turn the amplifier on.  You can barely hear yourself play (if you are a teenager living at home, this is not a "sin", this is a good idea so I don't unplug your amp and hide it from you.)  You turn the amp on.

The amp is on, guitar is tuned, except you can't seem to play the notes because you now have 3" long finger nails from not practicing.  Go clip your nails.

THAT is what "sin" is really about.  Doing or not doing what you are supposed to do in order to be the best "You" that you can be.  Being kind to others, caring about other Human Beings, being grateful for what G-d gave you.

"Original Sin" is like saying you were born a bad guitar player and will always be a bad guitar player.  And not only that, but if you ask Jesus, he'll play guitar for you and you never have to learned and you never have to play, and you can just tell everyone you're a great guitar player.  Even though you suck.

And just as a "original sin bad guitar player" would always suck, Christians suck at being human beings because instead of doing what G-d wants YOU to do so YOU can be a better human being, YOU are busy telling OTHER PEOPLE what THEY need to do.  Which is a lot like people who don't know how to play guitar telling people who do how to play guitar.  In other words, it's stupid.  And that's why I left Christianity.  Because it's a stupid religion that keeps people from growing and developing as Human Beings by telling them that someone else died so they don't have to worry about learning the important lessons in life.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:And

FurryCatHerder wrote:

And just as a "original sin bad guitar player" would always suck, Christians suck at being human beings because instead of doing what G-d wants YOU to do so YOU can be a better human being, YOU are busy telling OTHER PEOPLE what THEY need to do.  Which is a lot like people who don't know how to play guitar telling people who do how to play guitar.  In other words, it's stupid.  And that's why I left Christianity.  Because it's a stupid religion that keeps people from growing and developing as Human Beings by telling them that someone else died so they don't have to worry about learning the important lessons in life.

This is a total mischaracterization of Christianity and if you believed this to be Christianity when you left it, then you were never a Christian to begin with.

First of all, to assume that someone could "suck" at being a human being presumes a standard by which all human beings should adhere to.  God's standard is pretty clear.  One ought not to lie, cheat, steal, lust, hate, etc.  God is an infinitely perfect being and any sin is eternally against his nature.  Therefore, it isn't just mass murderers who go to Hell.  It is anybody who has ever hated someone or lied.. which can pretty much apply to any one of us.  God nowhere states that we can get into Heaven by meeting him halfway.  The glory of God is a really high standard and no exceptions are made. 

Therefore, to assume that anyone could get into Heaven based on their works is arrogance.  You bring God down to your human standards and you do not do justice to His eternally holy nature.  The best we can do is trust in God himself, that he can atone for our sins.  Once we are saved, good works will come.  We will still fall short of the glory of God, but we will trust in Him and only then will he forgive our sins.  Moreover, there is really nothing you can do to be saved.  You are only saved by God's grace.  Any Christian who gives you a step by step guide to salvation is not a true Christian.

The fact that you've read the bible like you have is pretty good evidence that you are unregenerate.  And your posts prove that you are a hypocrite, as you are telling me what I need to do in order to get into Heaven while at the same time condemning Christians for telling other people what they need to do, which is far removed from what Christianity is truly about.


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For now I'm just going to

For now I'm just going to watch, because I really liked Furry's post and want to see where this goes.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

And just as a "original sin bad guitar player" would always suck, Christians suck at being human beings because instead of doing what G-d wants YOU to do so YOU can be a better human being, YOU are busy telling OTHER PEOPLE what THEY need to do.  Which is a lot like people who don't know how to play guitar telling people who do how to play guitar.  In other words, it's stupid.  And that's why I left Christianity.  Because it's a stupid religion that keeps people from growing and developing as Human Beings by telling them that someone else died so they don't have to worry about learning the important lessons in life.

This is a total mischaracterization of Christianity and if you believed this to be Christianity when you left it, then you were never a Christian to begin with.

Oh, I was one of those "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" Christians.  It's just that because of Ahavat HaShem ("You will love the LORD your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength&quotEye-wink that I studied the Bible.  And what I learned is that far from anyone else being able to "clean up" after my sins, I had to do it myself.  And Jesus even said this -- do not go to the Temple to make an offering what?  If you have any hatred for your brother in your heart.  And if this is true, I cannot "go to Jesus" either, if I have any of those SINS in my heart.  Because the Christian doctrine is that Jesus made the sacrificial system irrelevant -- but it is not, in any Christian doctrine, the case that Jesus being murdered by Rome removed my obligation to correct the sins I've committed.  And Jesus confirmed that.

But the thing is -- the sacrifice system DID NOT atone for intentional sins, because you do not learn from mistakes you commit on purpose.  What you learn from intentional sins is either that you can get away with it, or you learn only when you are punished.  So again, if Jesus is replacing the sacrificial system, his death (l'havdil) doesn't atone for INTENTIONAL sins, only unintentional ones.  And then, only have the person has made restitution.

But into Isaiah, the Prophet states that G-d has TIRED of our sacrifices.  That G-d wants us to have a contrite heart -- to realize that WE have failed as human beings and to make amends.  So even in the Prophets G-d is telling us that sacrifices aren't want brings atonement -- it is learning from our mistakes, being sorry when we hurt others and correcting what we do wrong.

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First of all, to assume that someone could "suck" at being a human being presumes a standard by which all human beings should adhere to.  God's standard is pretty clear.  One ought not to lie, cheat, steal, lust, hate, etc.  God is an infinitely perfect being and any sin is eternally against his nature.  Therefore, it isn't just mass murderers who go to Hell.  It is anybody who has ever hated someone or lied.. which can pretty much apply to any one of us.  God nowhere states that we can get into Heaven by meeting him halfway.  The glory of God is a really high standard and no exceptions are made.

Apparently you're unfamiliar with the text which states that Abraham "walked with G-d".  So unless you want to claim that Abraham was perfect (and I'll drag out Genesis if you'd like to assert that ...), G-d very much does meet us "half-way".  Moses -- G-d spoke to Moses =directly=, and he wasn't perfect.  G-d even told him so -- because of Moses's sins, G-d tells him, face-to-face, that Moses will not cross the Jordan into Eretz Yisrael.  Ahron the High Priest -- had issues as well.  David -- sent the husband of a woman he lusted after into battle to die, and G-d rewarded him by eternally placing the Royal House of Israel in the Davidic line.  Solomon -- G-d allowed him to build the first Temple and he had major issues.  Wrote good porn (Song of Solomon), but still, G-d had him build the first Temple.

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Therefore, to assume that anyone could get into Heaven based on their works is arrogance.  You bring God down to your human standards and you do not do justice to His eternally holy nature.  The best we can do is trust in God himself, that he can atone for our sins.  Once we are saved, good works will come.  We will still fall short of the glory of God, but we will trust in Him and only then will he forgive our sins.  Moreover, there is really nothing you can do to be saved.  You are only saved by God's grace.  Any Christian who gives you a step by step guide to salvation is not a true Christian.

Ah, a Calvinist?  Predestination and Election?

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The fact that you've read the bible like you have is pretty good evidence that you are unregenerate.  And your posts prove that you are a hypocrite, as you are telling me what I need to do in order to get into Heaven while at the same time condemning Christians for telling other people what they need to do, which is far removed from what Christianity is truly about.

"Unregenerate"?  If you are a Calvinist you no more know that you're going to Heaven OR Hell than I do.  Since I'd spit in the face of a god that punishes the just and rewards the unjust, let me just tell you that any god who would condemn a decent, caring, respectful Atheist to Hell is one I'm going to tell to get stuffed.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Vastet wrote:For now I'm

Vastet wrote:
For now I'm just going to watch, because I really liked Furry's post and want to see where this goes.

It gets pretty ugly from here on out.

Atheists usually like this part.  And somewhere along the line, Bob may have that "Ah-ha!" moment where he understands the "Gee-dash-Dee" thing.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Oh, I

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Oh, I was one of those "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" Christians.  It's just that because of Ahavat HaShem ("You will love the LORD your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength&quotEye-wink that I studied the Bible.  And what I learned is that far from anyone else being able to "clean up" after my sins, I had to do it myself.  And Jesus even said this -- do not go to the Temple to make an offering what?  If you have any hatred for your brother in your heart.  And if this is true, I cannot "go to Jesus" either, if I have any of those SINS in my heart.  Because the Christian doctrine is that Jesus made the sacrificial system irrelevant -- but it is not, in any Christian doctrine, the case that Jesus being murdered by Rome removed my obligation to correct the sins I've committed.  And Jesus confirmed that.

You do have an obligation to correct your wrongdoing.  The point of the perfect sacrifice was not to give Christians a license to do whatever they pleased.  The point of the sacrifice was to make restitution for all of the sins that mankind committed for all of eternity, becase animals do not offer eternal atonement.  Good works are the RESULT of salvation.  They are not means by which you maintain your salvation or a relationship with God.  You will always have sins in your heart.  There is no way to change your own nature.  The sacrificial system isn't irrelevant.  It is very relevant.  The point is that Jesus made ETERNAL restitution and now we do not need to sacrifice animals or follow the primitive laws of the Old Testament.  If the sacrificial system wasn't relevant, then Jesus could not have died for our sins and we would have never been freed from OT law and none of us could truly be saved. 

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But the thing is -- the sacrifice system DID NOT atone for intentional sins, because you do not learn from mistakes you commit on purpose.  What you learn from intentional sins is either that you can get away with it, or you learn only when you are punished.  So again, if Jesus is replacing the sacrificial system, his death (l'havdil) doesn't atone for INTENTIONAL sins, only unintentional ones.  And then, only have the person has made restitution.

ALL sins are intentional.  Please explain how someone can UNINTENTIONALLY hate someone, or UNINTENTIONALLY murder someone.  I'd love to know how someone is able to do that unintentionally.  I'm sorry, but this is akin to saying that a pedophile is unintentionally lusting after a child because he cannot control his own desires.

If someone has a computer chip planted in their head and someone from a control room forces them to use God's name in vain, then this isn't a sin because it is not intentional.  It is FORCED.  That is also why Jesus made it possible for babies and disabled individuals to be saved, even though they cannot perform any works or follow any laws of the OT due to cognitive limitations.

Yes, even after we are saved, we will not only continue to sin, but we are going to do so by our own volition. 

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But into Isaiah, the Prophet states that G-d has TIRED of our sacrifices.  That G-d wants us to have a contrite heart -- to realize that WE have failed as human beings and to make amends.  So even in the Prophets G-d is telling us that sacrifices aren't want brings atonement -- it is learning from our mistakes, being sorry when we hurt others and correcting what we do wrong.

So you don't believe in deathbed conversions?  Let's say that someone is on their deathbed and did some horrific act 20 years ago that he is really sorry for.  There is no way for him to correct this because he is on his deathbed.  He is simply sorry and he has learned from his mistake. 

Are you saying that he is condemned?

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Apparently you're unfamiliar with the text which states that Abraham "walked with G-d".  So unless you want to claim that Abraham was perfect (and I'll drag out Genesis if you'd like to assert that ...), G-d very much does meet us "half-way".  Moses -- G-d spoke to Moses =directly=, and he wasn't perfect. 

They did not have to be perfect.  The basis for salvation has ALWAYS been faith and trust in God.  This was true even before Christ because Christ's sacrifice offered a payment for the sins of all eternity, past/present/future.  God is timeless and therefore does not witness things in a temporal context.  In eternity, there was no THIS before THAT.  But before we witnessed Christ, God allowed us salvation based on the revelation he had given us to that point.  The Old Testament sacrificial system was never sufficient by itself to remove sin for all eternity.  That required Christ, even though people back then did not have to put their faith in trust in Christ directly.

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"Unregenerate"?  If you are a Calvinist you no more know that you're going to Heaven OR Hell than I do.  Since I'd spit in the face of a god that punishes the just and rewards the unjust, let me just tell you that any god who would condemn a decent, caring, respectful Atheist to Hell is one I'm going to tell to get stuffed.

In other words, instead of listening to the word of God, you've created a morality for yourself and rejected a God that you did not feel comported with it.  Now you consistently reinterpret and distort the message to make it mean something that it doesn't mean, so you can propagate some absurd quasi-universalist message about how everyone except for Christians is going to Heaven.


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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Oh, I was one of those "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" Christians.  It's just that because of Ahavat HaShem ("You will love the LORD your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength&quotEye-wink that I studied the Bible.  And what I learned is that far from anyone else being able to "clean up" after my sins, I had to do it myself.  And Jesus even said this -- do not go to the Temple to make an offering what?  If you have any hatred for your brother in your heart.  And if this is true, I cannot "go to Jesus" either, if I have any of those SINS in my heart.  Because the Christian doctrine is that Jesus made the sacrificial system irrelevant -- but it is not, in any Christian doctrine, the case that Jesus being murdered by Rome removed my obligation to correct the sins I've committed.  And Jesus confirmed that.

You do have an obligation to correct your wrongdoing.  The point of the perfect sacrifice was not to give Christians a license to do whatever they pleased.  The point of the sacrifice was to make restitution for all of the sins that mankind committed for all of eternity, becase animals do not offer eternal atonement.  Good works are the RESULT of salvation.  They are not means by which you maintain your salvation or a relationship with God.  You will always have sins in your heart.  There is no way to change your own nature.  The sacrificial system isn't irrelevant.  It is very relevant.  The point is that Jesus made ETERNAL restitution and now we do not need to sacrifice animals or follow the primitive laws of the Old Testament.  If the sacrificial system wasn't relevant, then Jesus could not have died for our sins and we would have never been freed from OT law and none of us could truly be saved.

People are not responsible for the sins of someone else.  That's like saying that I have to practice guitar extra hard because some guy down the street plays too much Guitar Hero.

Nor is it possible, and there is ZERO theological basis in Judaic texts, for anyone to atone for MY sins.  They are mine and mine alone and only =I= can fix what I've done wrong.

Nor are the laws "primitive".  They may require re-interpreting them into a modern context.  For example, factory farms that are operating according to biblical principles, don't have oxen who can't be muzzled while harvesting.  But migrant workers who are harvesting fresh fruits and vegetables should still be allowed to snack while they work.  When I bring my fruit harvest in, I often eat while harvesting.

Other aspects of the Law, such as caring for the Widow and the Orphan, treating the Stranger with kindness -- these Laws are as applicable today as ever.

When Christians threw out the Law, they also threw out a social safety net, which is why we have poverty of the sort we have today -- if I showed up at a local farm or orchard to glean after the farm had been harvested, I'd be arrested for trespassing.  That's the legacy of Christianity -- classism and systemic poverty.  The objective of Christianity was reinforcing the Roman State, and that's why Christianity continues to be more about controlling the poor and underclass and less about caring for or promoting the power and underclass.

Finally, Jesus was far from the "perfect" sacrifice.  If he was "god", his entire life was a sham.  It was play-acting.  Me-Myself-And-I came to Earth.  Me-Myself-And-I led a perfect life.  Me-Myself-And-I died.  How boring.  You want to prove you're not a polytheist?  Try mixing the names up.  "The Son" got Mary pregnant so "The Father" could be born and die on a cross.  Make any sense?  No, of course not.  It's a Roman myth -- Zeus comes down from Mount Olympus and knocks up a mortal woman, the man-god child then has to perform feats of wonder to somehow get back to Mount Olympus.  The side-trip to Hades -- classical mythology.

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But the thing is -- the sacrifice system DID NOT atone for intentional sins, because you do not learn from mistakes you commit on purpose.  What you learn from intentional sins is either that you can get away with it, or you learn only when you are punished.  So again, if Jesus is replacing the sacrificial system, his death (l'havdil) doesn't atone for INTENTIONAL sins, only unintentional ones.  And then, only have the person has made restitution.

ALL sins are intentional.  Please explain how someone can UNINTENTIONALLY hate someone, or UNINTENTIONALLY murder someone.  I'd love to know how someone is able to do that unintentionally.  I'm sorry, but this is akin to saying that a pedophile is unintentionally lusting after a child because he cannot control his own desires.

The Law covers far more than just hating someone -- not that you have a CLUE about Jewish law.

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If someone has a computer chip planted in their head and someone from a control room forces them to use God's name in vain, then this isn't a sin because it is not intentional.  It is FORCED.  That is also why Jesus made it possible for babies and disabled individuals to be saved, even though they cannot perform any works or follow any laws of the OT due to cognitive limitations.

It's funny you mentioned that, because I had a Christian friend over for Passover a few years back and she =did= take G-d's name in vain.  The entire Passover seder stopped while the situation was corrected.  I suspect she'll be much more careful about G-d's name.  She probably also has a deeper appreciation for how serious and significant Jewish Law is when it comes to shaping human behavior.

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But in Isaiah, the Prophet states that G-d has TIRED of our sacrifices.  That G-d wants us to have a contrite heart -- to realize that WE have failed as human beings and to make amends.  So even in the Prophets G-d is telling us that sacrifices aren't want brings atonement -- it is learning from our mistakes, being sorry when we hurt others and correcting what we do wrong.

So you don't believe in deathbed conversions?  Let's say that someone is on their deathbed and did some horrific act 20 years ago that he is really sorry for.  There is no way for him to correct this because he is on his deathbed.  He is simply sorry and he has learned from his mistake.

1). I don't believe in "conversions".

2). I especially don't believe in "deathbed conversions".

Nor do I believe that a person who has lived a life that is "horrific" didn't have many an opportunity to make amends for what they did.

A story is told of how German officers, as WW II drew to a close, would approach Jews and beg for forgiveness.  How can someone expect to be "forgiven" for destroying another person's life, just by asking?  There are aspects of my life that have made my life -- to this day -- less than pleasant.  I have nightmares about things that happened 30 and 40 years ago.  The people who did it boast about how "unregenerate" they were, and how "Jesus" saved them and has forgiven them for the psychological damage they've done to me.  But they still attack me -- first, when I was a Christian and they weren't, for being so stupid as to believe in G-d, and then when I rejected Christianity as an immoral system and returned to Judaism and the religion of my ancestors.  They are just as evil today as when they brutalized me decades ago, they've just found a politically correct way to be assholes.

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Are you saying that he is condemned?

Of course.  His deathbed confession / conversion does nothing to correct the harm his "horrific" act has done.  If there is a Hell, he'll get to pay the place a visit.

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Apparently you're unfamiliar with the text which states that Abraham "walked with G-d".  So unless you want to claim that Abraham was perfect (and I'll drag out Genesis if you'd like to assert that ...), G-d very much does meet us "half-way".  Moses -- G-d spoke to Moses =directly=, and he wasn't perfect. 

They did not have to be perfect.  The basis for salvation has ALWAYS been faith and trust in God.  This was true even before Christ because Christ's sacrifice offered a payment for the sins of all eternity, past/present/future.  God is timeless and therefore does not witness things in a temporal context.  In eternity, there was no THIS before THAT.  But before we witnessed Christ, God allowed us salvation based on the revelation he had given us to that point.  The Old Testament sacrificial system was never sufficient by itself to remove sin for all eternity.  That required Christ, even though people back then did not have to put their faith in trust in Christ directly.

Wait, I thought you said that G-d doesn't meet us "half-way".  Abraham didn't think Jesus was G-d.  Nor did Moses, David, Solomon, Samuel, Samson, Isaiah, Elijah, etc.  Nor were these people "without sin", and according to Christian doctrine, "god" is so "holy" that he can't even be around sin.  Either Moses speaking face-to-face with G-d is false (in which case, all of Christianity is false), or this "my god is so holy he can't be around sin" thing you've got going is a lie.

Now, if you want to claim that somehow Jesus "undid" all of G-d's commandments that He conveyed through Moses, perhaps you could find that for me in the Torah.  I read Hebrew.  I'll be sure to help you along.

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"Unregenerate"?  If you are a Calvinist you no more know that you're going to Heaven OR Hell than I do.  Since I'd spit in the face of a god that punishes the just and rewards the unjust, let me just tell you that any god who would condemn a decent, caring, respectful Atheist to Hell is one I'm going to tell to get stuffed.

In other words, instead of listening to the word of God, you've created a morality for yourself and rejected a God that you did not feel comported with it.  Now you consistently reinterpret and distort the message to make it mean something that it doesn't mean, so you can propagate some absurd quasi-universalist message about how everyone except for Christians is going to Heaven.

No, I listen very much to the word of G-d.  What I don't listen to is the words of Christian polytheists.  But to answer your insulting accusation, of COURSE G-d rewards people who "Love (their) neighbor as (theirself)".  G-d wouldn't have made it one of the, as Jesus said, "two great commandments".  What you want is a religion that's "After-Life Oriented", while you crap all over people today and trust "Jesus" to clean up after your crap.  You care more you getting to Heaven and less about others making it on Earth.  And frankly, any god who works that way ISN'T worthy of worship, which is one reason I prefer associating with Atheists more than Christians.  At least Atheists know that the here-and-now is more important than Heaven.  Atheists are telling you that a god who allows people to mistreat others isn't a god worth worshiping.  And I agree with them.

And you didn't answer my question -- do you believe in Predestination and Election?  Are you a Calvinist?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:People

FurryCatHerder wrote:

People are not responsible for the sins of someone else.  That's like saying that I have to practice guitar extra hard because some guy down the street plays too much Guitar Hero.

Nor is it possible, and there is ZERO theological basis in Judaic texts, for anyone to atone for MY sins.  They are mine and mine alone and only =I= can fix what I've done wrong.

God was not responsible for your sins, but he paid for them anyway.

You need to make an important distinction between sins and actions that affect finite beings.  A sin is an eternal offense against God.  Only God is affected by sin and you can only answer to Him for that.  This is different than making amends to the person you've committed some act against.  For example, if I stole $100 and spent it, I could make amends by paying back the theft victim.  In this instance, you've made amends to the victim, but not to God.  For God, the penalty for sin is death, but Jesus already paid that penalty.  So the only way for you to make amends for God is to trust in Him because sin is by definition breaking God's law and affects God alone.  By trusting in Jesus, you are not only apt to make amends to the victim, but you are also apt not to steal in the first place.

Quote:
Nor are the laws "primitive".  They may require re-interpreting them into a modern context.

You can't reinterpret in a modern context because they were not modern laws.  When the bible talks about stoning adulterers, it is literally talking about throwing stones at adulterers.  When the bible talks about beating slaves, it is literally talking about beating slaves.

Quote:
Other aspects of the Law, such as caring for the Widow and the Orphan, treating the Stranger with kindness -- these Laws are as applicable today as ever.

Some laws never change.  Other laws were given for a particular time period.

Quote:
When Christians threw out the Law, they also threw out a social safety net, which is why we have poverty of the sort we have today -- if I showed up at a local farm or orchard to glean after the farm had been harvested, I'd be arrested for trespassing.  That's the legacy of Christianity -- classism and systemic poverty.  The objective of Christianity was reinforcing the Roman State, and that's why Christianity continues to be more about controlling the poor and underclass and less about caring for or promoting the power and underclass.

I don't quite see how Christianity has any influence whatsoever in the current status quo.  America is mostly secularized and I don't see politicians asking the churches how they should allocate resources among classes.

Moreover, Jesus himself lived in poverty and made numerous references about compassion for the poor.  Your logic is non-existent.

Quote:
Finally, Jesus was far from the "perfect" sacrifice.  If he was "god", his entire life was a sham.  It was play-acting.  Me-Myself-And-I came to Earth.  Me-Myself-And-I led a perfect life.  Me-Myself-And-I died.  How boring.  You want to prove you're not a polytheist?  Try mixing the names up.  "The Son" got Mary pregnant so "The Father" could be born and die on a cross.  Make any sense?  No, of course not.  It's a Roman myth -- Zeus comes down from Mount Olympus and knocks up a mortal woman, the man-god child then has to perform feats of wonder to somehow get back to Mount Olympus.  The side-trip to Hades -- classical mythology.

You are really having a difficult time with the Trinity.  Let me help you:

Time is a singular entity.  We do not simpy refer to it as a category shared by past, present, and future.  We see time as a being in itself.  Yet past, present, and future all share the time nature, and they are all distinct from one another.  We don't say that the past causes people to age, nor do we say that about the present or future.  We say that time causes people to age.

God is a singular entity but, much like time, also exists as his own ontological category.  This category is shared by three distinct persons.  The Son didn't get Mary pregnant anymore than the past caused you to age.  God got Mary pregnant, God died on the cross. 

Quote:
1). I don't believe in "conversions".

2). I especially don't believe in "deathbed conversions".

Nor do I believe that a person who has lived a life that is "horrific" didn't have many an opportunity to make amends for what they did.

Then I presume that you will have made amends for every sin you've ever committed in your life by the time you die, even those sins you've forgotten about (if any)?  Do you have a list of sins that you need to make amends for before you die?  What if you suddenly die tommorow without making amends for at least one of your sins?  Are you going to be condemned?

Does God allow a certain number of sins to be unatoned for?  What kind of leeway does he show?  Is there a specific number?  Let me know so I can write it down.

Quote:
Wait, I thought you said that G-d doesn't meet us "half-way".  Abraham didn't think Jesus was G-d.  Nor did Moses, David, Solomon, Samuel, Samson, Isaiah, Elijah, etc. 

They could not affirm the divinity of Jesus because Jesus had not been born yet.  But God's revelation was progressive and there were other means to salvation.  But the fact remains that none of them could have relied on their works alone.  Without the perfect sacrifice of Christ, none of them could have been saved.

Quote:
Now, if you want to claim that somehow Jesus "undid" all of G-d's commandments that He conveyed through Moses, perhaps you could find that for me in the Torah.  I read Hebrew.  I'll be sure to help you along.

He didn't undo them.  To do good works and follow the commandments are the fruits of salvation.  But they are meaningless without God's grace and the perfect sacrifice. 

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No, I listen very much to the word of G-d.  What I don't listen to is the words of Christian polytheists.  But to answer your insulting accusation, of COURSE G-d rewards people who "Love (their) neighbor as (theirself)".  G-d wouldn't have made it one of the, as Jesus said, "two great commandments".  What you want is a religion that's "After-Life Oriented", while you crap all over people today and trust "Jesus" to clean up after your crap.  You care more you getting to Heaven and less about others making it on Earth.  And frankly, any god who works that way ISN'T worthy of worship, which is one reason I prefer associating with Atheists more than Christians.  At least Atheists know that the here-and-now is more important than Heaven.  Atheists are telling you that a god who allows people to mistreat others isn't a god worth worshiping.  And I agree with them.

You are confused.  Christianity is about giving meaning to the here and now.  In fact, the purpose of any religion is to validate your existence here on Earth, because what you believe affects how you live.  If you knew that you were going to die in 10 days, you'd probably live quite differently.  Likewise, if you believe that life is objectively meaningful and worth living, you are apt to live your life quite differently.  From an atheistic perspective, the highest level of being is where we are right now, which means that eternal fulfillment is impossible and life is just playing a game that you cannot win.  We seek, we consume, and then we move on when we realize the finitude of the consumed objects.  The possibility for eternal life gives meaning to our existence here on Earth.

You can associate with atheists all you'd like.  But in the end, none of them believe you are rational and in their quest for "secular freedom", they will push you by the wayside and attempt to ensure that your metaphysical beliefs are not only kept out of the public sphere, but also kept in a place where it will not affect the way you live.  Otherwise, you will be ridiculed.


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Sorry Fortunate Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

You can associate with atheists all you'd like.  But in the end, none of them believe you are rational and in their quest for "secular freedom", they will push you by the wayside and attempt to ensure that your metaphysical beliefs are not only kept out of the public sphere, but also kept in a place where it will not affect the way you live.  Otherwise, you will be ridiculed.

 

Don't go there. We may not agree with FurryCat but I know I'm not the only atheist on this site who respects her opinions if not always agreeing with them and respects a religion that engages in rational debate without appealing to force. She also likes computers, guitars, V8s, motorcycles and is most probably, clever. Furry definitely adds a layer of comprehension and understanding and most important, debate, to the forum. Besides, which, she's evil and we hellkids have to stick together.

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Besides, which, she's evil and we hellkids have to stick together.

 

1). Are you married?

2). Can you get a work permit here in the States?

3). Could you put up with eating ONLY kosher food when you're at home?

4). You realize that I'm a religious freak, right?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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If God was infinitely good

If God was infinitely good with a complete absence of evil, how did his creation get the ability to do wrong? If freewill is to blame, then God created the option of doing wrong. If the Bible speaks of a God that is completely good, then that God doesn't exist. If God doesn't exist, then George Carlin was right, Joe Pesci is God, which means Joe Pesci doesn't exist and that he didn't screw Sharon Stone and he wasn't the nerve wrecking midget in Letal Weapon.

PSN:Hybrid-D_91 aka All American Atheist. The 18 yr old(soon to be 19) human that likes Rap and Rock. Oh yeah, God plays Killzone 2.


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Giggle

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Besides, which, she's evil and we hellkids have to stick together.

 

1). Are you married?

2). Can you get a work permit here in the States?

3). Could you put up with eating ONLY kosher food when you're at home?

4). You realize that I'm a religious freak, right?

 

forty three, single, into firm but gentle spanking, love olive oil, fish, sailing, motorbikes, am anti religious freak...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Fortunate_Son wrote:God was

Fortunate_Son wrote:

God was not responsible for your sins, but he paid for them anyway.

That's both impossible AND stupid.

Quote:

You need to make an important distinction between sins and actions that affect finite beings.  A sin is an eternal offense against God.  Only God is affected by sin and you can only answer to Him for that.  This is different than making amends to the person you've committed some act against.  For example, if I stole $100 and spent it, I could make amends by paying back the theft victim.  In this instance, you've made amends to the victim, but not to God.  For God, the penalty for sin is death, but Jesus already paid that penalty.  So the only way for you to make amends for God is to trust in Him because sin is by definition breaking God's law and affects God alone.  By trusting in Jesus, you are not only apt to make amends to the victim, but you are also apt not to steal in the first place.

See, here's your problem -- you don't even know what "sin" is.  Could you please find somewhere in the bible -- Christian, even if you insist, where "sin" is defined as an "eternal offense against G-d"?  Could you explain how you get to ignore Exodus 20:6?  I suspect that even the Atheists here would agree I'm big on Ahavat HaShem (Loving up on G-d), perhaps you could also explain 20:5.

Sins are divided into two categories -- sins against G-d, and sins against Man.  And they are remarkably easy to figure out -- Tablet "A" sins are against G-d, and Tablet "B" sins are against Man.  In the correct understanding of the Big 10, that's Five categories of laws relating to G-d, and Five categories relating to Man.  Theft?  It's a "Tablet B" sin, so it's against Man.

Now, you say "the penalty for theft is death" except that it isn't.  Exodus, starting at Chapter 22 describes the basic laws as they relate to "theft".  Except for "theft of a person" (see the previous chapter), the penalty for "theft" is restitution based on the value of the object that is stolen, as well as some additional punitive amount.  Have no money?  You pay with labor.  Nothing in there about "death".

(For the Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion, you should spend a lot of time reading this section of the Torah, then go off and read your jurisdictions Criminal Code.  After you've done that, you're now officially a member of whatever religion you live in.  I mean, "nation".)

Keep in mind -- Exodus is NOT someones opinion, it's the word of G-d.

Quote:

You can't reinterpret in a modern context because they were not modern laws.  When the bible talks about stoning adulterers, it is literally talking about throwing stones at adulterers.  When the bible talks about beating slaves, it is literally talking about beating slaves.

Uh, no.

Consider a man with no teeth.  Does he get to knock out all the teeth of everyone around him because he doesn't have any teeth left to knock out?  No, that would be stupid.  The model in the Torah is "proportionate justice".

Quote:
Quote:
Other aspects of the Law, such as caring for the Widow and the Orphan, treating the Stranger with kindness -- these Laws are as applicable today as ever.

Some laws never change.  Other laws were given for a particular time period.

Could you find me where it says that in the Torah?  Because the Torah's I read all say "forever".

Quote:

I don't quite see how Christianity has any influence whatsoever in the current status quo.  America is mostly secularized and I don't see politicians asking the churches how they should allocate resources among classes.

Moreover, Jesus himself lived in poverty and made numerous references about compassion for the poor.  Your logic is non-existent.

This is why we have front-page articles on CNN talking about how Jesus was "rich" and how Jesus wants everyone to be "rich" and to hell with the poor.

Quote:

You are really having a difficult time with the Trinity.  Let me help you:

Time is a singular entity.  We do not simpy refer to it as a category shared by past, present, and future.  We see time as a being in itself.  Yet past, present, and future all share the time nature, and they are all distinct from one another.  We don't say that the past causes people to age, nor do we say that about the present or future.  We say that time causes people to age.

God is a singular entity but, much like time, also exists as his own ontological category.  This category is shared by three distinct persons.  The Son didn't get Mary pregnant anymore than the past caused you to age.  God got Mary pregnant, God died on the cross.

I must say that I've never heard a comparison of your god to "Time".

The "me" that went to college 30 years ago is the same "me".  I'm older, grayer, flabbier, wear bifocals, but it is still the same "me".  If your god died on a cross 1970 years ago, your god is still dead.

Quote:
Quote:
1). I don't believe in "conversions".

2). I especially don't believe in "deathbed conversions".

Nor do I believe that a person who has lived a life that is "horrific" didn't have many an opportunity to make amends for what they did.

Then I presume that you will have made amends for every sin you've ever committed in your life by the time you die, even those sins you've forgotten about (if any)?  Do you have a list of sins that you need to make amends for before you die?  What if you suddenly die tommorow without making amends for at least one of your sins?  Are you going to be condemned?

Fortunately the Torah doesn't have this "wages of sin are death" theology that your religion invented.

Quote:
Quote:
Wait, I thought you said that G-d doesn't meet us "half-way".  Abraham didn't think Jesus was G-d.  Nor did Moses, David, Solomon, Samuel, Samson, Isaiah, Elijah, etc. 

They could not affirm the divinity of Jesus because Jesus had not been born yet.  But God's revelation was progressive and there were other means to salvation.  But the fact remains that none of them could have relied on their works alone.  Without the perfect sacrifice of Christ, none of them could have been saved.

Could you find a verse in the Torah which says that?  The doctrine of Jesus as some kind of "perfect sacrifice" isn't even claimed by Jesus.  Why?  Because people aren't sacrificial animals, and one person cannot atone for the sins of another, nor can a person atone for FUTURE sins.

Quote:
Quote:
Now, if you want to claim that somehow Jesus "undid" all of G-d's commandments that He conveyed through Moses, perhaps you could find that for me in the Torah.  I read Hebrew.  I'll be sure to help you along.

He didn't undo them.  To do good works and follow the commandments are the fruits of salvation.  But they are meaningless without God's grace and the perfect sacrifice.

Could you find a verse in the Torah which says that?

Quote:

You can associate with atheists all you'd like.  But in the end, none of them believe you are rational and in their quest for "secular freedom", they will push you by the wayside and attempt to ensure that your metaphysical beliefs are not only kept out of the public sphere, but also kept in a place where it will not affect the way you live.  Otherwise, you will be ridiculed.

My "metaphysical beliefs" are very in line with theirs.  The only difference between "secular humanism" and a Torah lifestyle is I thank G-d for things, they don't, but we both want a world in which people can live in peace and harmony, have their needs met, develop to the fullest extent of their humanity and so on.

In Christianity, people who reject Jesus are allowed to DIE of starvation and disease.  I've worked with enough charities in my life to have seen how Christians work in society.  You kill people just because they refuse to accept Jesus.  And one area where the Torah is clear, is that people who oppress the poor, the widow and the orphan WILL be severely punished by G-d.  And that's why I encourage you to go back and re-read my signature.  Because if there is a Hell, you will be there.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Besides, which, she's evil and we hellkids have to stick together.

 

1). Are you married?

2). Can you get a work permit here in the States?

3). Could you put up with eating ONLY kosher food when you're at home?

4). You realize that I'm a religious freak, right?

forty three, single, into firm but gentle spanking, love olive oil, fish, sailing, motorbikes, am anti religious freak...

 

We should take this discussion elsewhere!

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Take a deep breath, and

Take a deep breath, and relax.

Quote:
Well if I created something that was going to cause destruction, knew that it would, and then allowed it, I would be evil.

If A creates B knowing that B will create C, then A is responsible for C; is problematic for two reasons.

1. If I have a child knowing that that child will sin greatly beforehand, am I responsible for the sin that that child creates? If so, then if I have a child knowing that that child is going to poop for the rest of it's life, am I responsible for all the poop in its life?

 

2. If  (A creates B and B creates C) means (A is responsible for C) - then A is responsible for all of B's C. For example, if I have a child knowing that child will sin greatly - and my child has a child of its own that does a great amount of good, then presumably I am responsible for the creation of my creation - that is, a great deal of good. Now if this good outweighs the bad of the first child, then the appropriate action for A is to proceed with B, allowing C to have D and derive a great deal of good, thereby making A a good person irrespective of the intermediate C.

Thus answering:

Quote:
A: But if God created us, and God is all-knowing, he would have known that we were going to disobey him.  Why would he allow original sin to happen if he is such a good God?

(The great amount of good could be jesus christ. In allowing sin, God may well have saved all of mankind by exploiting B's C, whilst retaining free will.)

 

Now lets just say that A is responsible for B's well-being. That is, A is required to limit B's suffering. That is, if A is able to, A is to prevent all of B's suffering.

If A is omnipotent, then what kind of life will B have if A is preventing all possible suffering? Would B know what fire was? Indigestion? Hunger? What about patients? Bravery, fortitude, endurance, ageing, running out of breath, failure....

In other words, what are the parameters of a universe in which there were no suffering at all? How would B know the value of anything at all?

Quote:
The world is imperfect, but it could still do without things like the Holocaust, or the Fall, earthquakes, floods, etc.  Why would an all-loving God not intervene on such things?

Probably because we were made by these very processes.

Quote:
A: Are you telling me that we should just turn a blind eye to evil because our existence here is meaningless?

No. Suffering is very important.

Quote:
Well I think your God is evil.  He should not have created the world if he knew that it was going to be this bad for people

That will depend on ow you interpret rhe word "should".


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Good

Fortunate_Son wrote:
Good works are the RESULT of salvation.

I am reasonably certain that you wouldn't consider me saved, what with the atheism and whatnot, so does that mean that by some feat of semantic wrangling whenever I do some voluntary work, help out a friend or give to charity it's not a good work?

God: "Thou Must Go from This Place Lest I Visit Thee with Boils!"
Man: "Really? Most people would bring a bottle of wine"


pauljohntheskeptic
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jumbo1410 wrote:Take a deep

jumbo1410 wrote:

Take a deep breath, and relax.

Quote:
Well if I created something that was going to cause destruction, knew that it would, and then allowed it, I would be evil.

If A creates B knowing that B will create C, then A is responsible for C; is problematic for two reasons.

1. If I have a child knowing that that child will sin greatly beforehand, am I responsible for the sin that that child creates? If so, then if I have a child knowing that that child is going to poop for the rest of it's life, am I responsible for all the poop in its life?

 

2. If  (A creates B and B creates C) means (A is responsible for C) - then A is responsible for all of B's C. For example, if I have a child knowing that child will sin greatly - and my child has a child of its own that does a great amount of good, then presumably I am responsible for the creation of my creation - that is, a great deal of good. Now if this good outweighs the bad of the first child, then the appropriate action for A is to proceed with B, allowing C to have D and derive a great deal of good, thereby making A a good person irrespective of the intermediate C.

There's no need for this conjecture on your part. The god is very clear, Isaiah 45:7 - JPS - "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things."

I consider this the god taking responsibility for everything including evil as he takes credit for its creation. Or do you somehow have some other interpretation of this very straight forward statement attributed to the god? So yes the god is responsible for all the poop as he is clear here is he not?

jumbo1410 wrote:

Thus answering:

Quote:
A: But if God created us, and God is all-knowing, he would have known that we were going to disobey him.  Why would he allow original sin to happen if he is such a good God?

(The great amount of good could be jesus christ. In allowing sin, God may well have saved all of mankind by exploiting B's C, whilst retaining free will.)

Conjecture or your part as you have no way to know this at all.

jumbo1410 wrote:

 

Now lets just say that A is responsible for B's well-being. That is, A is required to limit B's suffering. That is, if A is able to, A is to prevent all of B's suffering.

If A is omnipotent, then what kind of life will B have if A is preventing all possible suffering? Would B know what fire was? Indigestion? Hunger? What about patients? Bravery, fortitude, endurance, ageing, running out of breath, failure....

In other words, what are the parameters of a universe in which there were no suffering at all? How would B know the value of anything at all?

So your god is tricksy then? Or do you see partly why your claim of a god doing it is BS. You are in fact arguing adaptation here you know.

 

jumbo1410 wrote:

No. Suffering is very important.

How else is an immortal entity expected to be entertained huh? Did you step on ants or purpose when you were a child?

 

 

____________________________________________________________
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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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FurryCatHerder wrote:That's

FurryCatHerder wrote:

That's both impossible AND stupid.

No it isn't.  Example:  I get a speeding ticket.  The cost of the penalty is $50.  The penalty must be paid.  But out of the goodness of her heart, my mother pays it for it me. 

See?  Was that so difficult?

Quote:
See, here's your problem -- you don't even know what "sin" is.  Could you please find somewhere in the bible -- Christian, even if you insist, where "sin" is defined as an "eternal offense against G-d"?  Could you explain how you get to ignore Exodus 20:6?  I suspect that even the Atheists here would agree I'm big on Ahavat HaShem (Loving up on G-d), perhaps you could also explain 20:5.

The bible is not an academic text book which gives a glossary of terms.  You have to read it critically and in the context of all 66 books.  What I am saying is the consensus of actual biblical scholars (you know, people who actually study this stuff?).   Sin is breaking the law of God.  If God dwells in eternity, then there is no temporality.  Therefore, anything we do here in the realm of time may affect us temporarily, but what we do to Him offends Him eternally.  Here are some relevant passages which back up what I say: 

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness" -- 1 John 3:4

"Against you, only you, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" -- Isaiah 55:6-7

"But your iniquities have made a separation between you and God." -- Isaiah 59:2


I think those passages make it pretty clear just exactly what sin is.

Quote:
Now, you say "the penalty for theft is death" except that it isn't.  Exodus, starting at Chapter 22 describes the basic laws as they relate to "theft".  Except for"theft of a person" (see the previous chapter), the penalty for "theft" is restitution based on the value of the object that is stolen, as well as some additional punitive amount.  Have no money?  You pay with labor.  Nothing in there about "death".

"For the wages of sin is death" -- Romans 3:23

In Isaiah, David makes it clear that sin is not divided in two categories.  His sin was ONLY against God.  Only against God can someone sin.  Where does it say in Exodus that you can sin against man?  The laws in Exodus were given as a guide for the ungodly, but they were not sufficient by themselves for salvation. 

Quote:
Keep in mind -- Exodus is NOT someones opinion, it's the word of G-d.

I agree.  But the word of God happens over the course of 66 books and not just a few cherry picked passages in Exodus. 

Quote:
Uh, no.

Uh, yes. 

Quote:
Consider a man with no teeth.  Does he get to knock out all the teeth of everyone around him because he doesn't have any teeth left to knock out?  No, that would be stupid.  The model in the Torah is "proportionate justice".

What does that have to do with what we were talking about?

Quote:
Could you find me where it says that in the Torah?  Because the Torah's I read all say "forever".

I don't accept that stuff has to be mentioned in the Torah in order to considered the word of God.  I can show you where it says that in the New Testament.

Quote:
This is why we have front-page articles on CNN talking about how Jesus was "rich" and how Jesus wants everyone to be "rich" and to hell with the poor.

I want actual bible passages that support this view, not some front page article from CNN, which conveniently you haven't cited.

Quote:
I must say that I've never heard a comparison of your god to "Time".

The "me" that went to college 30 years ago is the same "me".  I'm older, grayer, flabbier, wear bifocals, but it is still the same "me".  If your god died on a cross 1970 years ago, your god is still dead.

You haven't heard that comparison because you obviously did not supplement your theological education with a sound philosophical education.  God did not literally "die".  Jesus was crucified and his body experienced physical sensations which we would commonly associate with the physical event that we call "death".

Quote:
Fortunately the Torah doesn't have this "wages of sin are death" theology that your religion invented.

You just said that someone on their deathbed who shows repentence cannot get into Heaven because s/he did not make amends with the person s/he sinned against. 

Now you are trying to backpeddle and say that even if we do not make amends for all of our sins, we still do not have to suffer the consequence of Hell. 

Answer the question.  If you were to die tommorow, would God send you to Hell because you did not make amends for all of your sins?  Or are you going to tell me that you keep a checklist of every sin you've ever committed and check off that you've made amends for it? 

Quote:
Could you find a verse in the Torah which says that?  The doctrine of Jesus as some kind of "perfect sacrifice" isn't even claimed by Jesus.  Why?  Because people aren't sacrificial animals, and one person cannot atone for the sins of another, nor can a person atone for FUTURE sins.

Why does it need to be in the Torah?  Why can't it be in the New Testament? 

You need to prove that the New Testament is necessarily false.  If you cannot do that, then you have no right to say that the word of God is only contained in the Torah.

Quote:
Could you find a verse in the Torah which says that?

See above.  Knowledge is cumulative, not singular.  You cannot understand the entire Christian theology in a singular passage.  You have to read every single book. 

Quote:
My "metaphysical beliefs" are very in line with theirs.  The only difference between "secular humanism" and a Torah lifestyle is I thank G-d for things, they don't, but we both want a world in which people can live in peace and harmony, have their needs met, develop to the fullest extent of their humanity and so on.

Just a note to atheists:  In Christianity, Christ freed us from the laws of the Old Covenant.  I would ask that you question your Jewish friend here on why she is not stoning her unruly children, in keeping with the Old Testament law.

Quote:
In Christianity, people who reject Jesus are allowed to DIE of starvation and disease.  I've worked with enough charities in my life to have seen how Christians work in society.  You kill people just because they refuse to accept Jesus.  And one area where the Torah is clear, is that people who oppress the poor, the widow and the orphan WILL be severely punished by G-d.  And that's why I encourage you to go back and re-read my signature.  Because if there is a Hell, you will be there.

I don't recall ever killing someone because they were not a Christian.  Maybe I told them that they were going to Hell, but I do not quite see how that is equivalent to killing.  Moreover, you still haven't provided me any evidence that Christianity supports suppression of the poor. 

The interesting thing is, by your own criteria, I would be going to Heaven because I actually make amends for most of my negative actions as best I can and I do a lot of charity work.  In fact, my principle profession is helping poor people.  But I guess works only make a difference if you are not a Christian?  Then again, you also said the penalty for sin isn't death, so God will turn a blind eye to my transgressions, right?


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Besides, which, she's evil and we hellkids have to stick together.

 

1). Are you married?

2). Can you get a work permit here in the States?

3). Could you put up with eating ONLY kosher food when you're at home?

4). You realize that I'm a religious freak, right?

forty three, single, into firm but gentle spanking, love olive oil, fish, sailing, motorbikes, am anti religious freak...

 

We should take this discussion elsewhere!

 

Oh that sucks!

 

I was looking forward to finding out what is the common denominator between "firm but gentle spanking", the love of olive oil, and fish!

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warning: graphic description

warning: graphic description of suffering. 

What you think about suffering, and I think about suffering are very different.  I'm going to tell you about true suffering.

 

Newborn baby with some defects.  Goes on heart lung bypass for a few days, gets said defect fixed.  Unfortunately she is left with underdeveloped lungs.  She develops a condition called "pulmonary hypertension".  Now, the trick with this disease process is that if the baby gets upset, the blood vessels in the lungs clamp down and the baby can't transfer oxygen and dies.  So, you have to try and keep the baby calm at all times.  (this baby is still intubated by the way)

So, the baby is kept in a dark room, paralyzed, sedated and drugged up.  Her parents cannot hold her or touch her, because that upsets her and her oxygen saturations plummet.  Even without doing anything, we know she is still in pain and suffering because of her episodes of low sats.  Her brain is starting to atrophy and disintegrate because of the lack of stimulation she is receiving (in addition to the lack of oxygen) but we can't do anything about it because being anything but drugged to high heaven causes her too much pain and stress and she can't have that. 

Now, her parents are very religious and their religion and culture will not allow for the parents to say "it's over, stop", and current us medical practice won't allow for the docs to say that (it has to come from the parents).  So, she continues to suffer, day and night, for five months. 

Finally, she does die.  And after that, her parents can hold her.  But, while alive, she never could experience that because the only sensation she felt was pain and stress and unhappiness. 

 

That is suffering.  Heartburn is not suffering.  Skinning your knees is not suffering.  Living for 5 months in either a drugged stupor with random bouts of pain and horror just to finally die without ever knowing what it felt like to be held by another person, that's horror and suffering.

If you think that's an isolated incident, I have *way* more stories to tell!

"Shepherd Book once said to me, 'If you can't do something smart, do something right.'" - Jayne

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SapphireMind wrote:I have

SapphireMind wrote:
I have *way* more stories to tell!

No, that's okay. Your facial expression really says it all.

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"(For the Atheists who

"(For the Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion, you should spend a lot of time reading this section of the Torah, then go off and read your jurisdictions Criminal Code.  After you've done that, you're now officially a member of whatever religion you live in.  I mean, "nation"."

Tablet "A", as you put it, refutes you. Sorry.

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Vastet wrote:Atheists who

Vastet wrote:
Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion.

 

If Judaism isn't a religion... then what is it?

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She seems to believe people

She seems to believe people can have a country without having a country. That the Mayan's are still Mayan's, despite being absorbed into other cultures, effectively. Never minding that Israel is long dead. That which imitates it today is but equivalent to wiccans who rebuilt their religion after the christians purged it from the land. And did so by stealing land that belonged to others, with help from the UN. Its biggest mistake in all its years.

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Vastet wrote:stealing

Vastet wrote:
stealing land

 

Okay... a political ideology then?


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Quote:There's no need for

Quote:
There's no need for this conjecture on your part. The god is very clear, Isaiah 45:7 - JPS - "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things."

I consider this the god taking responsibility for everything including evil as he takes credit for its creation. Or do you somehow have some other interpretation of this very straight forward statement attributed to the god? So yes the god is responsible for all the poop as he is clear here is he not?

I am not a theologian. The context of that (and other passages) may well change the meaning of the word as it is meant in Hebrew. It could be that the hebrew word "Rah" (evil) refers to natural evil only, leaving moral evil (and its consequences) caused by us.

Reply pending...


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Indeterminate

Indeterminate wrote:

Fortunate_Son wrote:
Good works are the RESULT of salvation.

I am reasonably certain that you wouldn't consider me saved, what with the atheism and whatnot, so does that mean that by some feat of semantic wrangling whenever I do some voluntary work, help out a friend or give to charity it's not a good work?

Ignoring simple questions makes baby jesus sad, don'tchaknow...

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Marquis wrote:SapphireMind

Marquis wrote:

SapphireMind wrote:
I have *way* more stories to tell!

No, that's okay. Your facial expression really says it all.

Isn't it a pretty picture of me?  *LOL*  I figured I tend to hate my pics anyway, so I might as well make it *really* bad.

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SapphireMind wrote:Marquis

SapphireMind wrote:

Marquis wrote:

SapphireMind wrote:
I have *way* more stories to tell!

No, that's okay. Your facial expression really says it all.

Isn't it a pretty picture of me?

 

I looked like that when I opened my tax return letter last, I believe.

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I'm still waiting for

I'm still waiting for fortunate son to come back and tell me how it is awesome his god did that to a baby.

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Sadly, to the boxed

SapphireMind wrote:

I'm still waiting for fortunate son to come back and tell me how it is awesome his god did that to a baby.

 

christian mind, we are all simply appealing to pity. God can pitchfork all the babes he likes into the flames and it's not drama for the godly.

What I'd like to know instead is this. Fortunate Son - would you, personally, pitchfork babies into the lake of fire?

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jumbo1410

jumbo1410 wrote:

Quote:
There's no need for this conjecture on your part. The god is very clear, Isaiah 45:7 - JPS - "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things."

I consider this the god taking responsibility for everything including evil as he takes credit for its creation. Or do you somehow have some other interpretation of this very straight forward statement attributed to the god? So yes the god is responsible for all the poop as he is clear here is he not?

I am not a theologian. The context of that (and other passages) may well change the meaning of the word as it is meant in Hebrew. It could be that the hebrew word "Rah" (evil) refers to natural evil only, leaving moral evil (and its consequences) caused by us.

Reply pending...

Nope, because the inclination to DO this "moral evil" is called the "Yetzer Ha'Ra".

Can we agree that G-d created free-will?  You get to choose, because G-d created you with a brain inside that skull of yours, between doing what is "right" and what is "wrong".

Furthermore, G-d made up the rules that define what is "right" and what is "wrong", and I'd go so far (big scary Theist that I am ...) as saying that G-d gives us a sort of "conscience" that tells us something is 'right' or 'wrong' even if we don't happen to have a bible lying around.

What part of all of that gives G-d a free pass on creating evil?

And more to the point, if G-d didn't create evil, who did?  NOTHING exists except what G-d has created.  That's why He's G-d!

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Marquis wrote:Vastet

Marquis wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion.

If Judaism isn't a religion... then what is it?

It's a floor wax ... and a desert topping!

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Marquis

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Marquis wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion.

If Judaism isn't a religion... then what is it?

It's a floor wax ... and a desert topping!

It is what you want it to be - just like Christianity.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly

jcgadfly wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Marquis wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion.

If Judaism isn't a religion... then what is it?

It's a floor wax ... and a desert topping!

It is what you want it to be - just like Christianity.

No, really -- not at all like Christianity.  I was a Christian for a while.  Being a Christian is a lot like being a Republican.  Being a Jew is a lot like being a Texan.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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This may be close to the truth

jcgadfly wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Marquis wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion.

If Judaism isn't a religion... then what is it?

It's a floor wax ... and a desert topping!

It is what you want it to be - just like Christianity.

 

I think there's certainly an element of interpretation involved. But fundy theists are a sort of universal creature, like they've been stamped out of the same mold.

It's most disconcerting when they all say the same things the way they do. Jesus is in for a tedious eternity, you know. I'm not sure what he did wrong to deserve an association with human beings who live eternally but he's going to seriously regret it before he's through...

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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FurryCatHerder wrote:No,

 

FurryCatHerder wrote:

 

No, really -- not at all like Christianity.  I was a Christian for a while.  Being a Christian is a lot like being a Republican.  Being a Jew is a lot like being a Texan.

       What type of Christian were you ?

 


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Indeterminate wrote:I am

Indeterminate wrote:

I am reasonably certain that you wouldn't consider me saved, what with the atheism and whatnot, so does that mean that by some feat of semantic wrangling whenever I do some voluntary work, help out a friend or give to charity it's not a good work?

Hitting more home runs is the result of taking steroids.  But that does not mean that someone cannot hit just as many home runs without taking steroids.

Good works are the result of salvation.  But you do not have to be saved in order to do good works 


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Welcome back.Fortunate_Son

Welcome back.

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Hitting more home runs is the result of taking steroids.  But that does not mean that someone cannot hit just as many home runs without taking steroids.

If that's relevant, I don't see how. Please explain.

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Good works are the result of salvation.  But you do not have to be saved in order to do good works 

Contradiction.

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Indeterminate wrote:Welcome

Indeterminate wrote:

Welcome back.

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Hitting more home runs is the result of taking steroids.  But that does not mean that someone cannot hit just as many home runs without taking steroids.

If that's relevant, I don't see how. Please explain.

 

Fortunate_Son wrote:

 

Good works are the result of salvation.  But you do not have to be saved in order to do good works 

Contradiction.

I said good works are the result of salvation.  I did not say that salvation was the only way someone could do good works. 


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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Indeterminate wrote:

Welcome back.

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Hitting more home runs is the result of taking steroids.  But that does not mean that someone cannot hit just as many home runs without taking steroids.

If that's relevant, I don't see how. Please explain.

 

Fortunate_Son wrote:

 

Good works are the result of salvation.  But you do not have to be saved in order to do good works 

Contradiction.

I said good works are the result of salvation.  I did not say that salvation was the only way someone could do good works. 

I see. So the many times you have very emphatically stated that good works are the result of salvation you were saying that good works happen, and salvation is one possible inspiration for them. I'd agree with that, although I wouldn't agree that good works necessarily follow from salvation. I'm not sure it tells us anything useful.

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Indeterminate wrote:I see.

Indeterminate wrote:

I see. So the many times you have very emphatically stated that good works are the result of salvation you were saying that good works happen, and salvation is one possible inspiration for them. I'd agree with that, although I wouldn't agree that good works necessarily follow from salvation. I'm not sure it tells us anything useful.

Salvation is an inspiration for them.  If you are saved, then you want to follow the law of God.  You will inevitably fall short because no finite being can measure up God's eternally holy nature, but being saved is giving your life to God and putting Him first before everything else in your life.  If you continue to sanctify actions which are contrary to his word, then there is no way you are saved.

It tells us something extremely useful, namely, that humans do not need to rely on their own merits to get into Heaven.  This is what makes Christianity unique.  All of the other religions give instructions on what you need to do in order to be fulfilled for all of eternity, thus eternal fulfillment becomes a reward for everything you have done in your physical life.  Christianity states that the key to Heaven is given to us by God and we only need to rely on Him because no human is perfect enough to measure up to God's standard.


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SapphireMind wrote:warning:

SapphireMind wrote:

warning: graphic description of suffering. 

What you think about suffering, and I think about suffering are very different.  I'm going to tell you about true suffering.

 

Newborn baby with some defects.  Goes on heart lung bypass for a few days, gets said defect fixed.  Unfortunately she is left with underdeveloped lungs.  She develops a condition called "pulmonary hypertension".  Now, the trick with this disease process is that if the baby gets upset, the blood vessels in the lungs clamp down and the baby can't transfer oxygen and dies.  So, you have to try and keep the baby calm at all times.  (this baby is still intubated by the way)

So, the baby is kept in a dark room, paralyzed, sedated and drugged up.  Her parents cannot hold her or touch her, because that upsets her and her oxygen saturations plummet.  Even without doing anything, we know she is still in pain and suffering because of her episodes of low sats.  Her brain is starting to atrophy and disintegrate because of the lack of stimulation she is receiving (in addition to the lack of oxygen) but we can't do anything about it because being anything but drugged to high heaven causes her too much pain and stress and she can't have that. 

Now, her parents are very religious and their religion and culture will not allow for the parents to say "it's over, stop", and current us medical practice won't allow for the docs to say that (it has to come from the parents).  So, she continues to suffer, day and night, for five months. 

Finally, she does die.  And after that, her parents can hold her.  But, while alive, she never could experience that because the only sensation she felt was pain and stress and unhappiness. 

 

That is suffering.  Heartburn is not suffering.  Skinning your knees is not suffering.  Living for 5 months in either a drugged stupor with random bouts of pain and horror just to finally die without ever knowing what it felt like to be held by another person, that's horror and suffering.

If you think that's an isolated incident, I have *way* more stories to tell!

Still waiting for fortunate to tell me about the awesomeness of this situation and how he can relate heartburn to real suffering.

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I'm not convinced that

I'm not convinced that atheists care all that much about the concept of "evil" in the first place.

But I will say this: if what god created for himself is a game, it might make more sense. If you you create a game for yourself that you can and will ALWAYS win, how quickly and unbelievably boring would it become? Whoever created SimCity (and all those similar "civilization" games) would have failed miserably if you could play them and always end up with a prosperous, happy, problem-free world.

The good/evil dichotomy is really nothing more than the battle between growth and entropy that helps define our universe.


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

forty three, single, into firm but gentle spanking, love olive oil, fish, sailing, motorbikes, am anti religious freak...

 

What was that about spankings?


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SapphireMind wrote:Marquis

SapphireMind wrote:

Marquis wrote:

SapphireMind wrote:
I have *way* more stories to tell!

No, that's okay. Your facial expression really says it all.

Isn't it a pretty picture of me?  *LOL*  I figured I tend to hate my pics anyway, so I might as well make it *really* bad.

I think that picture is HAWT.


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SapphireMind wrote:Still

SapphireMind wrote:

Still waiting for fortunate to tell me about the awesomeness of this situation and how he can relate heartburn to real suffering.

You and Indeterminate are both awaiting answers to relatively simple questions.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


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SapphireMind wrote:Still

SapphireMind wrote:

Still waiting for fortunate to tell me about the awesomeness of this situation and how he can relate heartburn to real suffering.

You and Indeterminate are both awaiting answers to relatively simple questions.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


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SapphireMind wrote:Still

SapphireMind wrote:

Still waiting for fortunate to tell me about the awesomeness of this situation and how he can relate heartburn to real suffering.

You and Indeterminate are both awaiting answers to relatively simple questions.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


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Sorry for the triple post.

Sorry for the triple post. Wireless freakout.