This is a total mischaracterization of Christianity and if you believed this to be Christianity when you left it, then you were never a Christian to begin with.

First of all, to assume that someone could "suck" at being a human being presumes a standard by which all human beings should adhere to.  God's standard is pretty clear.  One ought not to lie, cheat, steal, lust, hate, etc.  God is an infinitely perfect being and any sin is eternally against his nature.  Therefore, it isn't just mass murderers who go to Hell.  It is anybody who has ever hated someone or lied.. which can pretty much apply to any one of us.  God nowhere states that we can get into Heaven by meeting him halfway.  The glory of God is a really high standard and no exceptions are made. 

Therefore, to assume that anyone could get into Heaven based on their works is arrogance.  You bring God down to your human standards and you do not do justice to His eternally holy nature.  The best we can do is trust in God himself, that he can atone for our sins.  Once we are saved, good works will come.  We will still fall short of the glory of God, but we will trust in Him and only then will he forgive our sins.  Moreover, there is really nothing you can do to be saved.  You are only saved by God's grace.  Any Christian who gives you a step by step guide to salvation is not a true Christian.

The fact that you've read the bible like you have is pretty good evidence that you are unregenerate.  And your posts prove that you are a hypocrite, as you are telling me what I need to do in order to get into Heaven while at the same time condemning Christians for telling other people what they need to do, which is far removed from what Christianity is truly about.

Oh, I was one of those "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" Christians.  It's just that because of Ahavat HaShem ("You will love the LORD your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength&quot that I studied the Bible.  And what I learned is that far from anyone else being able to "clean up" after my sins, I had to do it myself.  And Jesus even said this -- do not go to the Temple to make an offering what?  If you have any hatred for your brother in your heart.  And if this is true, I cannot "go to Jesus" either, if I have any of those SINS in my heart.  Because the Christian doctrine is that Jesus made the sacrificial system irrelevant -- but it is not, in any Christian doctrine, the case that Jesus being murdered by Rome removed my obligation to correct the sins I've committed.  And Jesus confirmed that.

But the thing is -- the sacrifice system DID NOT atone for intentional sins, because you do not learn from mistakes you commit on purpose.  What you learn from intentional sins is either that you can get away with it, or you learn only when you are punished.  So again, if Jesus is replacing the sacrificial system, his death (l'havdil) doesn't atone for INTENTIONAL sins, only unintentional ones.  And then, only have the person has made restitution.

But into Isaiah, the Prophet states that G-d has TIRED of our sacrifices.  That G-d wants us to have a contrite heart -- to realize that WE have failed as human beings and to make amends.  So even in the Prophets G-d is telling us that sacrifices aren't want brings atonement -- it is learning from our mistakes, being sorry when we hurt others and correcting what we do wrong.

Apparently you're unfamiliar with the text which states that Abraham "walked with G-d".  So unless you want to claim that Abraham was perfect (and I'll drag out Genesis if you'd like to assert that ...), G-d very much does meet us "half-way".  Moses -- G-d spoke to Moses =directly=, and he wasn't perfect.  G-d even told him so -- because of Moses's sins, G-d tells him, face-to-face, that Moses will not cross the Jordan into Eretz Yisrael.  Ahron the High Priest -- had issues as well.  David -- sent the husband of a woman he lusted after into battle to die, and G-d rewarded him by eternally placing the Royal House of Israel in the Davidic line.  Solomon -- G-d allowed him to build the first Temple and he had major issues.  Wrote good porn (Song of Solomon), but still, G-d had him build the first Temple.

Ah, a Calvinist?  Predestination and Election?

"Unregenerate"?  If you are a Calvinist you no more know that you're going to Heaven OR Hell than I do.  Since I'd spit in the face of a god that punishes the just and rewards the unjust, let me just tell you that any god who would condemn a decent, caring, respectful Atheist to Hell is one I'm going to tell to get stuffed.

You do have an obligation to correct your wrongdoing.  The point of the perfect sacrifice was not to give Christians a license to do whatever they pleased.  The point of the sacrifice was to make restitution for all of the sins that mankind committed for all of eternity, becase animals do not offer eternal atonement.  Good works are the RESULT of salvation.  They are not means by which you maintain your salvation or a relationship with God.  You will always have sins in your heart.  There is no way to change your own nature.  The sacrificial system isn't irrelevant.  It is very relevant.  The point is that Jesus made ETERNAL restitution and now we do not need to sacrifice animals or follow the primitive laws of the Old Testament.  If the sacrificial system wasn't relevant, then Jesus could not have died for our sins and we would have never been freed from OT law and none of us could truly be saved. 

ALL sins are intentional.  Please explain how someone can UNINTENTIONALLY hate someone, or UNINTENTIONALLY murder someone.  I'd love to know how someone is able to do that unintentionally.  I'm sorry, but this is akin to saying that a pedophile is unintentionally lusting after a child because he cannot control his own desires.

If someone has a computer chip planted in their head and someone from a control room forces them to use God's name in vain, then this isn't a sin because it is not intentional.  It is FORCED.  That is also why Jesus made it possible for babies and disabled individuals to be saved, even though they cannot perform any works or follow any laws of the OT due to cognitive limitations.

Yes, even after we are saved, we will not only continue to sin, but we are going to do so by our own volition. 

So you don't believe in deathbed conversions?  Let's say that someone is on their deathbed and did some horrific act 20 years ago that he is really sorry for.  There is no way for him to correct this because he is on his deathbed.  He is simply sorry and he has learned from his mistake. 

Are you saying that he is condemned?

They did not have to be perfect.  The basis for salvation has ALWAYS been faith and trust in God.  This was true even before Christ because Christ's sacrifice offered a payment for the sins of all eternity, past/present/future.  God is timeless and therefore does not witness things in a temporal context.  In eternity, there was no THIS before THAT.  But before we witnessed Christ, God allowed us salvation based on the revelation he had given us to that point.  The Old Testament sacrificial system was never sufficient by itself to remove sin for all eternity.  That required Christ, even though people back then did not have to put their faith in trust in Christ directly.

In other words, instead of listening to the word of God, you've created a morality for yourself and rejected a God that you did not feel comported with it.  Now you consistently reinterpret and distort the message to make it mean something that it doesn't mean, so you can propagate some absurd quasi-universalist message about how everyone except for Christians is going to Heaven.

God was not responsible for your sins, but he paid for them anyway.

You need to make an important distinction between sins and actions that affect finite beings.  A sin is an eternal offense against God.  Only God is affected by sin and you can only answer to Him for that.  This is different than making amends to the person you've committed some act against.  For example, if I stole $100 and spent it, I could make amends by paying back the theft victim.  In this instance, you've made amends to the victim, but not to God.  For God, the penalty for sin is death, but Jesus already paid that penalty.  So the only way for you to make amends for God is to trust in Him because sin is by definition breaking God's law and affects God alone.  By trusting in Jesus, you are not only apt to make amends to the victim, but you are also apt not to steal in the first place.

You can't reinterpret in a modern context because they were not modern laws.  When the bible talks about stoning adulterers, it is literally talking about throwing stones at adulterers.  When the bible talks about beating slaves, it is literally talking about beating slaves.

Some laws never change.  Other laws were given for a particular time period.

I don't quite see how Christianity has any influence whatsoever in the current status quo.  America is mostly secularized and I don't see politicians asking the churches how they should allocate resources among classes.

Moreover, Jesus himself lived in poverty and made numerous references about compassion for the poor.  Your logic is non-existent.

You are really having a difficult time with the Trinity.  Let me help you:

Time is a singular entity.  We do not simpy refer to it as a category shared by past, present, and future.  We see time as a being in itself.  Yet past, present, and future all share the time nature, and they are all distinct from one another.  We don't say that the past causes people to age, nor do we say that about the present or future.  We say that time causes people to age.

God is a singular entity but, much like time, also exists as his own ontological category.  This category is shared by three distinct persons.  The Son didn't get Mary pregnant anymore than the past caused you to age.  God got Mary pregnant, God died on the cross. 

Then I presume that you will have made amends for every sin you've ever committed in your life by the time you die, even those sins you've forgotten about (if any)?  Do you have a list of sins that you need to make amends for before you die?  What if you suddenly die tommorow without making amends for at least one of your sins?  Are you going to be condemned?

Does God allow a certain number of sins to be unatoned for?  What kind of leeway does he show?  Is there a specific number?  Let me know so I can write it down.

They could not affirm the divinity of Jesus because Jesus had not been born yet.  But God's revelation was progressive and there were other means to salvation.  But the fact remains that none of them could have relied on their works alone.  Without the perfect sacrifice of Christ, none of them could have been saved.

He didn't undo them.  To do good works and follow the commandments are the fruits of salvation.  But they are meaningless without God's grace and the perfect sacrifice. 

You are confused.  Christianity is about giving meaning to the here and now.  In fact, the purpose of any religion is to validate your existence here on Earth, because what you believe affects how you live.  If you knew that you were going to die in 10 days, you'd probably live quite differently.  Likewise, if you believe that life is objectively meaningful and worth living, you are apt to live your life quite differently.  From an atheistic perspective, the highest level of being is where we are right now, which means that eternal fulfillment is impossible and life is just playing a game that you cannot win.  We seek, we consume, and then we move on when we realize the finitude of the consumed objects.  The possibility for eternal life gives meaning to our existence here on Earth.

You can associate with atheists all you'd like.  But in the end, none of them believe you are rational and in their quest for "secular freedom", they will push you by the wayside and attempt to ensure that your metaphysical beliefs are not only kept out of the public sphere, but also kept in a place where it will not affect the way you live.  Otherwise, you will be ridiculed.

1). Are you married?

2). Can you get a work permit here in the States?

3). Could you put up with eating ONLY kosher food when you're at home?

4). You realize that I'm a religious freak, right?

forty three, single, into firm but gentle spanking, love olive oil, fish, sailing, motorbikes, am anti religious freak...

We should take this discussion elsewhere!

I am reasonably certain that you wouldn't consider me saved, what with the atheism and whatnot, so does that mean that by some feat of semantic wrangling whenever I do some voluntary work, help out a friend or give to charity it's not a good work?

No it isn't.  Example:  I get a speeding ticket.  The cost of the penalty is $50.  The penalty must be paid.  But out of the goodness of her heart, my mother pays it for it me. 

See?  Was that so difficult?

The bible is not an academic text book which gives a glossary of terms.  You have to read it critically and in the context of all 66 books.  What I am saying is the consensus of actual biblical scholars (you know, people who actually study this stuff?).   Sin is breaking the law of God.  If God dwells in eternity, then there is no temporality.  Therefore, anything we do here in the realm of time may affect us temporarily, but what we do to Him offends Him eternally.  Here are some relevant passages which back up what I say: 

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness" -- 1 John 3:4

"Against you, only you, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" -- Isaiah 55:6-7

"But your iniquities have made a separation between you and God." -- Isaiah 59:2

I think those passages make it pretty clear just exactly what sin is.

"For the wages of sin is death" -- Romans 3:23

In Isaiah, David makes it clear that sin is not divided in two categories.  His sin was ONLY against God.  Only against God can someone sin.  Where does it say in Exodus that you can sin against man?  The laws in Exodus were given as a guide for the ungodly, but they were not sufficient by themselves for salvation. 

I agree.  But the word of God happens over the course of 66 books and not just a few cherry picked passages in Exodus. 

Uh, yes. 

What does that have to do with what we were talking about?

I don't accept that stuff has to be mentioned in the Torah in order to considered the word of God.  I can show you where it says that in the New Testament.

I want actual bible passages that support this view, not some front page article from CNN, which conveniently you haven't cited.

You haven't heard that comparison because you obviously did not supplement your theological education with a sound philosophical education.  God did not literally "die".  Jesus was crucified and his body experienced physical sensations which we would commonly associate with the physical event that we call "death".

You just said that someone on their deathbed who shows repentence cannot get into Heaven because s/he did not make amends with the person s/he sinned against. 

Now you are trying to backpeddle and say that even if we do not make amends for all of our sins, we still do not have to suffer the consequence of Hell. 

Answer the question.  If you were to die tommorow, would God send you to Hell because you did not make amends for all of your sins?  Or are you going to tell me that you keep a checklist of every sin you've ever committed and check off that you've made amends for it? 

Why does it need to be in the Torah?  Why can't it be in the New Testament? 

You need to prove that the New Testament is necessarily false.  If you cannot do that, then you have no right to say that the word of God is only contained in the Torah.

See above.  Knowledge is cumulative, not singular.  You cannot understand the entire Christian theology in a singular passage.  You have to read every single book. 

Just a note to atheists:  In Christianity, Christ freed us from the laws of the Old Covenant.  I would ask that you question your Jewish friend here on why she is not stoning her unruly children, in keeping with the Old Testament law.

I don't recall ever killing someone because they were not a Christian.  Maybe I told them that they were going to Hell, but I do not quite see how that is equivalent to killing.  Moreover, you still haven't provided me any evidence that Christianity supports suppression of the poor. 

The interesting thing is, by your own criteria, I would be going to Heaven because I actually make amends for most of my negative actions as best I can and I do a lot of charity work.  In fact, my principle profession is helping poor people.  But I guess works only make a difference if you are not a Christian?  Then again, you also said the penalty for sin isn't death, so God will turn a blind eye to my transgressions, right?

warning: graphic description of suffering. 

What you think about suffering, and I think about suffering are very different.  I'm going to tell you about true suffering.

Newborn baby with some defects.  Goes on heart lung bypass for a few days, gets said defect fixed.  Unfortunately she is left with underdeveloped lungs.  She develops a condition called "pulmonary hypertension".  Now, the trick with this disease process is that if the baby gets upset, the blood vessels in the lungs clamp down and the baby can't transfer oxygen and dies.  So, you have to try and keep the baby calm at all times.  (this baby is still intubated by the way)

So, the baby is kept in a dark room, paralyzed, sedated and drugged up.  Her parents cannot hold her or touch her, because that upsets her and her oxygen saturations plummet.  Even without doing anything, we know she is still in pain and suffering because of her episodes of low sats.  Her brain is starting to atrophy and disintegrate because of the lack of stimulation she is receiving (in addition to the lack of oxygen) but we can't do anything about it because being anything but drugged to high heaven causes her too much pain and stress and she can't have that. 

Now, her parents are very religious and their religion and culture will not allow for the parents to say "it's over, stop", and current us medical practice won't allow for the docs to say that (it has to come from the parents).  So, she continues to suffer, day and night, for five months. 

Finally, she does die.  And after that, her parents can hold her.  But, while alive, she never could experience that because the only sensation she felt was pain and stress and unhappiness. 

That is suffering.  Heartburn is not suffering.  Skinning your knees is not suffering.  Living for 5 months in either a drugged stupor with random bouts of pain and horror just to finally die without ever knowing what it felt like to be held by another person, that's horror and suffering.

If you think that's an isolated incident, I have *way* more stories to tell!

"(For the Atheists who insist Judaism is a religion, you should spend a lot of time reading this section of the Torah, then go off and read your jurisdictions Criminal Code.  After you've done that, you're now officially a member of whatever religion you live in.  I mean, "nation"."

Tablet "A", as you put it, refutes you. Sorry.

She seems to believe people can have a country without having a country. That the Mayan's are still Mayan's, despite being absorbed into other cultures, effectively. Never minding that Israel is long dead. That which imitates it today is but equivalent to wiccans who rebuilt their religion after the christians purged it from the land. And did so by stealing land that belonged to others, with help from the UN. Its biggest mistake in all its years.

I am not a theologian. The context of that (and other passages) may well change the meaning of the word as it is meant in Hebrew. It could be that the hebrew word "Rah" (evil) refers to natural evil only, leaving moral evil (and its consequences) caused by us.

Reply pending...

Isn't it a pretty picture of me?  *LOL*  I figured I tend to hate my pics anyway, so I might as well make it *really* bad.

I'm still waiting for fortunate son to come back and tell me how it is awesome his god did that to a baby.

Nope, because the inclination to DO this "moral evil" is called the "Yetzer Ha'Ra".

Can we agree that G-d created free-will?  You get to choose, because G-d created you with a brain inside that skull of yours, between doing what is "right" and what is "wrong".

Furthermore, G-d made up the rules that define what is "right" and what is "wrong", and I'd go so far (big scary Theist that I am ...) as saying that G-d gives us a sort of "conscience" that tells us something is 'right' or 'wrong' even if we don't happen to have a bible lying around.

What part of all of that gives G-d a free pass on creating evil?

And more to the point, if G-d didn't create evil, who did?  NOTHING exists except what G-d has created.  That's why He's G-d!

It is what you want it to be - just like Christianity.

I think there's certainly an element of interpretation involved. But fundy theists are a sort of universal creature, like they've been stamped out of the same mold.

It's most disconcerting when they all say the same things the way they do. Jesus is in for a tedious eternity, you know. I'm not sure what he did wrong to deserve an association with human beings who live eternally but he's going to seriously regret it before he's through...

Hitting more home runs is the result of taking steroids.  But that does not mean that someone cannot hit just as many home runs without taking steroids.

Good works are the result of salvation.  But you do not have to be saved in order to do good works 

I said good works are the result of salvation.  I did not say that salvation was the only way someone could do good works. 

Salvation is an inspiration for them.  If you are saved, then you want to follow the law of God.  You will inevitably fall short because no finite being can measure up God's eternally holy nature, but being saved is giving your life to God and putting Him first before everything else in your life.  If you continue to sanctify actions which are contrary to his word, then there is no way you are saved.

It tells us something extremely useful, namely, that humans do not need to rely on their own merits to get into Heaven.  This is what makes Christianity unique.  All of the other religions give instructions on what you need to do in order to be fulfilled for all of eternity, thus eternal fulfillment becomes a reward for everything you have done in your physical life.  Christianity states that the key to Heaven is given to us by God and we only need to rely on Him because no human is perfect enough to measure up to God's standard.

I'm not convinced that atheists care all that much about the concept of "evil" in the first place.

But I will say this: if what god created for himself is a game, it might make more sense. If you you create a game for yourself that you can and will ALWAYS win, how quickly and unbelievably boring would it become? Whoever created SimCity (and all those similar "civilization" games) would have failed miserably if you could play them and always end up with a prosperous, happy, problem-free world.

The good/evil dichotomy is really nothing more than the battle between growth and entropy that helps define our universe.

I think that picture is HAWT.

You and Indeterminate are both awaiting answers to relatively simple questions.

Sorry for the triple post. Wireless freakout.