Debating a Jehova's Witness

aftershock567
Posts: 17
Joined: 2008-12-03
User is offlineOffline
Debating a Jehova's Witness

Some of you might remember me, you turned me into an atheist a couple months back. At work I am having a friendly debat with a Jehova's Witness. He really knows his stuff. He has been using knowledge biblical characters had about things such as the shape of the cosmos, disease, and weather patterns as proof that they had gleaned some sort of divine knowledge from God about things they couldn't have known. I really don't want to put much effort into researching all that stuff. Have any of you ran into such arguements, and if so, how did you fire back?  Sigh, I guess I will never get away from reading that damn bible...

Chris


Deadly Fingergun
atheist
Deadly Fingergun's picture
Posts: 237
Joined: 2009-11-19
User is offlineOffline
I find it highly amusing

I find it highly amusing that religious types are now trying to make it seem as if there is evidence now for their beliefs. Even to the faithful, faith is a cop-out.

No matter what the claim, if you listen carefully you can hear the word-games being played. One of my favorites is the claim that they knew the Earth was round. The passage is Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."

See what they've done here? "A circle is round, the Earth is round." Well, the Earth is spherical, not circular. To anyone turning a rational eye to the claim, the difference is too great to ignore.

To help you with dealing with this sort of thing, you'll find the Skeptics Annotated Bible to be invaluable.

Big E wrote:
Clown
Why, yes, I am!


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I don't know much about

I don't know much about jw's, but there is at least one former jw here. Hopefully he'll notice this topic.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Indeterminate
Posts: 89
Joined: 2009-12-18
User is offlineOffline
The ancient Greeks knew that

The ancient Greeks knew that the world was round, they were even able to calculate a surprisingly accurate estimate of it's size. The Mesopotamians had a complex system of heuristics which allowed them to forecast the weather. As far as I'm aware the only idea about disease that has survived from biblical times is that quarantine is sometimes needed, but they didn't seem to have any good ideas about when and why it was needed.

Exactly how you counter their claims depends on exactly what they're claiming, but by the sounds of it they're claiming nothing.

Usually with JWs I just wait for them to contradict themselves. I don't often have to wait very long. If you want to go on the offensive just point out the omnipotence paradox, that often confuses people.

God: "Thou Must Go from This Place Lest I Visit Thee with Boils!"
Man: "Really? Most people would bring a bottle of wine"


aftershock567
Posts: 17
Joined: 2008-12-03
User is offlineOffline
Well I have been trying to

Well I have been trying to argue that humans were not created perfect because we fell from grace fairly easily according to Genesis. I am having a hard time finding the wording to convey that since humans sinned, we were obviously not created to be perfect. Also, he is argueing that human suffering is like preforming surgery on a child, while the child may not understand the process or the pain, in the end it is good for him.

 

Chris


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
Well the argument is really

Well the argument is really silly since it's not like surgery on a child, we have anesthetics, and the pain can be temporary, its a daft analogy. What we have is god is more like chairman Mao, or Stalin, either do as they say or be punished, there are not other options in god's world view, the whole free-will argument is really stupid as well, you have 2 choices, follow or suffer, not really a choice. Again god is tyrant for all purposes in the bible, torah and q'uran.


 


Luminon
SuperfanTheist
Luminon's picture
Posts: 2455
Joined: 2008-02-17
User is offlineOffline
Did you know that Jehovah's

Did you know that Jehovah's Witnesses were originally a Freemason sect? The freemason symbols hidden in some of their illustrations prove that. I'd like to see their faces if they would suddenly find out.
I know, it's a bit strong stuff to use on your friends, so think twice berore asking them something about it.

By the way, sometimes I imagine that Watch Tower of theirs as Sauron's tower with evil eye on the top. The word "watch tower" can be in my language altered really simply (change 2 letters and remove some accents) into the word of "awful lie". This can not be a coincidence Smiling

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


smartypants
Superfan
smartypants's picture
Posts: 597
Joined: 2009-03-20
User is offlineOffline
Indeterminate wrote: As far

Indeterminate wrote:

 As far as I'm aware the only idea about disease that has survived from biblical times is that quarantine is sometimes needed, but they didn't seem to have any good ideas about when and why it was needed.

 

I don't have any sources to support this, but I have heard that Ancient Egypt had medical knowledge that was extremely sophisticated relative to what we might expect.

 

R


NoMoreCrazyPeople
atheistSuperfan
NoMoreCrazyPeople's picture
Posts: 969
Joined: 2009-10-14
User is offlineOffline
Luminon wrote:Did you know

Luminon wrote:

Did you know that Jehovah's Witnesses were originally a Freemason sect? The freemason symbols hidden in some of their illustrations prove that.

 

 

  Infact it goes even deeper.  Charles T Russel the founder of the Bible and track society 1885 or so (became Jehovah's Witnesses)  was a 33rd degree mason.  His gravestone is a giant pyramid with the symbols blantantly engraved on it.  Charles T Russlels work was funded by the Rothschilds (one of the illuminatti families) as were other religious ventures in the late 1800's including the "Christian science church" i believe it was called.  Not only do most Jehovah's Witnesses have no idea of this, most dont really even consider the fact the Watchtower and Awake is controlled by the governing body a group of 12 men or so who live primarily in their giant skyskarapers in New York, who's telling them what to do or where it all actually came from doesn't seem to matter to them at all.  Most dont really think at all about the origins of their religion or the material, so pointing this out to Jehovahs's Witnesses seems to just make them confused, and then they just quickly block it out and move on. Their minds are indeed had,  but it does stick with some and they investigate further, once their on the internet researching the non-bios written history of the Joho's (Strickly forbidden when i was one 10yrs ago), the facts speak for themselves.. 


NoMoreCrazyPeople
atheistSuperfan
NoMoreCrazyPeople's picture
Posts: 969
Joined: 2009-10-14
User is offlineOffline
The best way to make them

The best way to make them see how controlled they are is to point out how many times the Governing body has predicted the end of the world, 1914, 1918, 1925, 50's, 70's again and again everytime coming back with a new biblically related mathamaticall calculation (1 generation after 1914=no one born after 1914 will have to die the end will come before their generation passes, and then changing the math pointing to 1914 later on etc...) posponing the end of the world another 20 years or so, just enough to keep em hanging.  Every new generation of johos seem to forget completely about these predictions and continue to believe in the next  rapture.  The older ones hide their embarressing memories some of selling their homes, cars, and other material possesions awaiting armageddon.  With Jehovah's Witnesses its actually really easy, the are terribly misenformed about who they are and continue to be with their strict laws of not going on other websites than the watchtower's, and not being friends with outsiders.     


Atheistextremist
atheist
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5134
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Hi there Aftershock

aftershock567 wrote:

Some of you might remember me, you turned me into an atheist a couple months back. At work I am having a friendly debat with a Jehova's Witness. He really knows his stuff. He has been using knowledge biblical characters had about things such as the shape of the cosmos, disease, and weather patterns as proof that they had gleaned some sort of divine knowledge from God about things they couldn't have known. I really don't want to put much effort into researching all that stuff. Have any of you ran into such arguements, and if so, how did you fire back?  Sigh, I guess I will never get away from reading that damn bible...

Chris

 

Bear in mind that a dedicated theist with his/her entire life support system at stake is never going to believe the loose and constantly changing comprehension that humans have of the actual universe. This person wants solidity - to know that someone is at the helm and that everything is going to be alright. A verse in their book will outweigh 20 years field research at a single stroke.

In some ways the important thing is not so much whether the theist has a come back but how much work they have to undertake to redecorate their position to fit an argument. Ultimately they have to make compromises in areas we wouldn't normally make them. The idea that human suffering is some sort of tool god uses to make better people of us is particularly odious as a visit to any cancer ward will quickly tell you.

In order to successfully debate some one with a knowledge of bible you have to be a physicist, a geologist, a biologist, a philosopher, an astronomer, a mathematician - being a neurologist wouldn't hurt either. It's impossible for average joe bloggs to achieve this stake of broad understanding. I personally, have virtually no idea how the universe works. The theist can simply say "God did it".

The theist has their entire world view wrapped up in one little book. Ultimately what's important is not what he believes but what you believe. Is random, terrible suffering moral? Is eternal damnation after death moral? How can god be perfect love and perfect forgiveness and yet seek vengeful retribution? Why would the supposed motive force for the creation of the universe possess any human qualities at all? What was a stray all powerfull deity doing floating around in the jocaxian nothingness with so much time on his hands pre-universe?

I can't win an argument with my big brother David on this topic - he's a theist and a phd and he always falls back to first cause, perfect justice, the arguments of Aquinas and the rest. He ignores the whole of evolution - the entire fossil record - all current work in the area of neuroscience that shows personality and mind are indeed, physical and not spiritual. He cries out for intermediate forms but scoffs at crocoducks.

But happily, he also believes stupid things that undermine his appearance of good sense - such as that god talks through him and acts through him. Why don't you ask this chap a bit more about his god? Chances are, under the rational front he believes in ghosts, demons, witches, dragons and a whole bunch of impossible and ridiculous crap.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Adventfred
atheist
Adventfred's picture
Posts: 298
Joined: 2009-09-12
User is offlineOffline
 Atheistextremist

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

aftershock567 wrote:

Some of you might remember me, you turned me into an atheist a couple months back. At work I am having a friendly debat with a Jehova's Witness. He really knows his stuff. He has been using knowledge biblical characters had about things such as the shape of the cosmos, disease, and weather patterns as proof that they had gleaned some sort of divine knowledge from God about things they couldn't have known. I really don't want to put much effort into researching all that stuff. Have any of you ran into such arguements, and if so, how did you fire back?  Sigh, I guess I will never get away from reading that damn bible...

Chris

 

Bear in mind that a dedicated theist with his/her entire life support system at stake is never going to believe the loose and constantly changing comprehension that humans have of the actual universe. This person wants solidity - to know that someone is at the helm and that everything is going to be alright. A verse in their book will outweigh 20 years field research at a single stroke.

In some ways the important thing is not so much whether the theist has a come back but how much work they have to undertake to redecorate their position to fit an argument. Ultimately they have to make compromises in areas we wouldn't normally make them. The idea that human suffering is some sort of tool god uses to make better people of us is particularly odious as a visit to any cancer ward will quickly tell you.

In order to successfully debate some one with a knowledge of bible you have to be a physicist, a geologist, a biologist, a philosopher, an astronomer, a mathematician - being a neurologist wouldn't hurt either. It's impossible for average joe bloggs to achieve this stake of broad understanding. I personally, have virtually no idea how the universe works. The theist can simply say "God did it".

The theist has their entire world view wrapped up in one little book. Ultimately what's important is not what he believes but what you believe. Is random, terrible suffering moral? Is eternal damnation after death moral? How can god be perfect love and perfect forgiveness and yet seek vengeful retribution? Why would the supposed motive force for the creation of the universe possess any human qualities at all? What was a stray all powerfull deity doing floating around in the jocaxian nothingness with so much time on his hands pre-universe?

I can't win an argument with my big brother David on this topic - he's a theist and a phd and he always falls back to first cause, perfect justice, the arguments of Aquinas and the rest. He ignores the whole of evolution - the entire fossil record - all current work in the area of neuroscience that shows personality and mind are indeed, physical and not spiritual. He cries out for intermediate forms but scoffs at crocoducks.

But happily, he also believes stupid things that undermine his appearance of good sense - such as that god talks through him and acts through him. Why don't you ask this chap a bit more about his god? Chances are, under the rational front he believes in ghosts, demons, witches, dragons and a whole bunch of impossible and ridiculous crap.

 

 

funny thing is JW dont know about the omni paradoxes i tried debating them and they are to stupid to debate they dont know jack shit about anything except the Bullshit i mean Bible 


aftershock567
Posts: 17
Joined: 2008-12-03
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Bear in mind that a dedicated theist with his/her entire life support system at stake is never going to believe the loose and constantly changing comprehension that humans have of the actual universe. This person wants solidity - to know that someone is at the helm and that everything is going to be alright. A verse in their book will outweigh 20 years field research at a single stroke.

In some ways the important thing is not so much whether the theist has a come back but how much work they have to undertake to redecorate their position to fit an argument. Ultimately they have to make compromises in areas we wouldn't normally make them. The idea that human suffering is some sort of tool god uses to make better people of us is particularly odious as a visit to any cancer ward will quickly tell you.

In order to successfully debate some one with a knowledge of bible you have to be a physicist, a geologist, a biologist, a philosopher, an astronomer, a mathematician - being a neurologist wouldn't hurt either. It's impossible for average joe bloggs to achieve this stake of broad understanding. I personally, have virtually no idea how the universe works. The theist can simply say "God did it".

The theist has their entire world view wrapped up in one little book. Ultimately what's important is not what he believes but what you believe. Is random, terrible suffering moral? Is eternal damnation after death moral? How can god be perfect love and perfect forgiveness and yet seek vengeful retribution? Why would the supposed motive force for the creation of the universe possess any human qualities at all? What was a stray all powerfull deity doing floating around in the jocaxian nothingness with so much time on his hands pre-universe?

I can't win an argument with my big brother David on this topic - he's a theist and a phd and he always falls back to first cause, perfect justice, the arguments of Aquinas and the rest. He ignores the whole of evolution - the entire fossil record - all current work in the area of neuroscience that shows personality and mind are indeed, physical and not spiritual. He cries out for intermediate forms but scoffs at crocoducks.

But happily, he also believes stupid things that undermine his appearance of good sense - such as that god talks through him and acts through him. Why don't you ask this chap a bit more about his god? Chances are, under the rational front he believes in ghosts, demons, witches, dragons and a whole bunch of impossible and ridiculous crap.

 

 

Well apparently I am going to have to be an expert in linguistics as well because he believes the diversity of human language could only have been caused by god when he split up the languages during the Tower of Babel story...


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Ask him where these words

Ask him where these words came from then: internet, website, television, telephone.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Hybrid-D_91
Hybrid-D_91's picture
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-12-26
User is offlineOffline
aftershock567 wrote:Some of

aftershock567 wrote:

Some of you might remember me, you turned me into an atheist a couple months back. At work I am having a friendly debat with a Jehova's Witness. He really knows his stuff. He has been using knowledge biblical characters had about things such as the shape of the cosmos, disease, and weather patterns as proof that they had gleaned some sort of divine knowledge from God about things they couldn't have known. I really don't want to put much effort into researching all that stuff. Have any of you ran into such arguements, and if so, how did you fire back?  Sigh, I guess I will never get away from reading that damn bible...

Chris

Just show them the picture of Charles Russel's grave with a pyramid with Templar/Masonic symbols located across the street from a Masonic lodge. Apostates may be the first thing that burst out of their mouths or the greatest excuse of Russel coming into a greater light. They say God feeds them info directly, yet have changed their doctrines, and God is unchanging, sure. In the past, organ donations were prohibited in the Witness faith, but it was changed as time passed, one of their doctrines. They predicted the World would end in 1914, the 1920s, and the 1970s, they were wrong. Research Beth Sirem or something like that, a huge mansion in San Diego. They later said 1914 would be the beginning of the end after their prophecy was wrong. Not to mention the long case of child molestation charges. See if he knows the history of his religion.

I was raised a JW, here is one thing that he will not be able to answer.

If God is completely absent from evil, how did his creation create evil? If he blames "free will", tell him how in this paradise situation there would be no free will and why not create the World like that from the beginning. If he says, "Well God wants us to make that choice of serving him or not", tell him in Paradise there would be only one choice, negating freewill. He may say, "But we would have made that choice and after 1000 years  people will be tested again by Satan then God will throw Satan and his newly found followers into the Lake of Fire". Leaving one problem, what about kids born after that ordeal, they will not have free will and going back to "Why not make the World like that from the beginning?".

If he says God is very mysterious, ask him, "How do you know that?". Of course he would say the Bible is God's word and the Bible says so and that the Bible warns people from changing it yet they have done just that. Sorry for the rant, but is was fun sarcasm.

He will not answer that. Also they don't believe in "Hell" but their book named The Book of Revelations, it speaks of the Lake of Fire being a fiery punishment for eternity. The book is filled with great art, but false information, at least historically speaking.

Their book named Daniel's Prophecy have historicall errors. It says Nebuchannezar(spelled wrong I know) had a son named Belshazzar(I think it's spelled wrong), who later became king. Which is a lie, Neb dude had a son named Marduk(there were many). Bel dude had a father named Nabonius, and Bel was never a king, more like a prince. When his father left Babylon, Bel dude was left in charge of the city's defenses, that's it. No where in the records of the Babylonian's era was there a king named Nebuchannezar who bore a son named Belshazzar. Not only that, the book speaks of Darius the Mede, some guy who supposedly over throw Babylon, when it was actually Cyprus the Great, but they may try to say Darius is Cyprus, yeah sure.

Read the Bible, it's funny. Every culture has some prophecy about diseases, weather patterns, and what not. The Greeks, the acient Chinese, and the infamous Mayans. The Mayans do have the upper hand in comparison the the Bible when it comes to predicting. They used the stars, something you can see and observe, not the invisible Goku Superman Jesus God. To be honest, common sense would tell anyone diseases and the weather changes. JWs also say earthquakes today are the worst of our time and that 1914 is when this Satan guy was kicked onto Earth, creating mass chaos and war unlike humanity witness before, hence WW1 & 2. The idiots forget one thing, there weren't atomic and nuclear bombs before 1914. Imagine if Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great had bombs or guns. I don't see earthquakes seperating California into the ocean yet, seriously they know so much about everything but know very little about nothing.

 

The Bible teaches of a flat, geocentric Earth that stands still. It's in their New World(spooky, just joking) Translation. You call that divine?

PSN:Hybrid-D_91 aka All American Atheist. The 18 yr old(soon to be 19) human that likes Rap and Rock. Oh yeah, God plays Killzone 2.


Hybrid-D_91
Hybrid-D_91's picture
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-12-26
User is offlineOffline
aftershock567

aftershock567 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Bear in mind that a dedicated theist with his/her entire life support system at stake is never going to believe the loose and constantly changing comprehension that humans have of the actual universe. This person wants solidity - to know that someone is at the helm and that everything is going to be alright. A verse in their book will outweigh 20 years field research at a single stroke.

In some ways the important thing is not so much whether the theist has a come back but how much work they have to undertake to redecorate their position to fit an argument. Ultimately they have to make compromises in areas we wouldn't normally make them. The idea that human suffering is some sort of tool god uses to make better people of us is particularly odious as a visit to any cancer ward will quickly tell you.

In order to successfully debate some one with a knowledge of bible you have to be a physicist, a geologist, a biologist, a philosopher, an astronomer, a mathematician - being a neurologist wouldn't hurt either. It's impossible for average joe bloggs to achieve this stake of broad understanding. I personally, have virtually no idea how the universe works. The theist can simply say "God did it".

The theist has their entire world view wrapped up in one little book. Ultimately what's important is not what he believes but what you believe. Is random, terrible suffering moral? Is eternal damnation after death moral? How can god be perfect love and perfect forgiveness and yet seek vengeful retribution? Why would the supposed motive force for the creation of the universe possess any human qualities at all? What was a stray all powerfull deity doing floating around in the jocaxian nothingness with so much time on his hands pre-universe?

I can't win an argument with my big brother David on this topic - he's a theist and a phd and he always falls back to first cause, perfect justice, the arguments of Aquinas and the rest. He ignores the whole of evolution - the entire fossil record - all current work in the area of neuroscience that shows personality and mind are indeed, physical and not spiritual. He cries out for intermediate forms but scoffs at crocoducks.

But happily, he also believes stupid things that undermine his appearance of good sense - such as that god talks through him and acts through him. Why don't you ask this chap a bit more about his god? Chances are, under the rational front he believes in ghosts, demons, witches, dragons and a whole bunch of impossible and ridiculous crap.

 

 

Well apparently I am going to have to be an expert in linguistics as well because he believes the diversity of human language could only have been caused by god when he split up the languages during the Tower of Babel story...

 

The Tower of Babel has yet to be located and it was originally a Sumerian story, as well as the Noah's Ark story. The story of Enmerkar and the Lord of Arrata and the Epic of Gigamesh, look them up. The Israelites/Hebrews borrowed not only their God, Yahweh(originally one of many Cannaite dieties), but their stories predate their God himself.

PSN:Hybrid-D_91 aka All American Atheist. The 18 yr old(soon to be 19) human that likes Rap and Rock. Oh yeah, God plays Killzone 2.


Ken G.
Posts: 1352
Joined: 2008-03-20
User is offlineOffline
aftershock567 wrote:Debating a Jehova's witness

 All that I could add is "Don't waste your time with someone that believes in sky daddy's" they don't use reason and they sure ain't rational human beings,and they don't believe in science , I know from first hand experience.

Signature ? How ?