hard sci-fi recommendations?

iwbiek
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hard sci-fi recommendations?

i was mentioning to bobspence earlier that i'm starting to get into arthur c. clarke and i was wondering if anybody has any other hard sf authors they think are worth reading?  i never was a huge sf fan, apart from a couple star wars novels as a teen and an attempt to read dune, which i quit halfway through out of boredom.  nowadays, though, i'm very intrigued by hard sf. 

i don't have a wide selection of english books in the slovak bookstores unfortunately, but i have also seen some of asimov's foundation novels.  i'm also under the impression that ben bova is a hard sf author.  bradbury as well, i think.  ideas?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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OK, I don’t know what

OK, I don’t know what you can get where you are.  However, you could start with the “golden age” authors:  Isaac Asimov, Arthur Clark and Robert Heinlien.  Any of their works are going to be good.

 

For Asimov and Heinlien, you may want to do some research first because a fair bit of both author’s works are tied to a series chronology.  A couple of titles that are not:

 

Asimov:  The Gods Themselves

 

Heinlien:  Stranger In a Strange Land

 

For Clarke, try Childhood’s End.  Also, see if you can dig up a collection of short stories with a copy of The Sentinel (that was an early version of what became 2001).

 

Past that, keep an eye out for Larry Niven.  Especially the Ring World series and the Integral Trees books.

 

You may also want to keep an eye out for C. S. Friedman’s True Night series and Julian May’s Galactic Milieu series.

 

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Robert Forward. Specifically

Robert Forward. Specifically his novel "Dragon's Egg." It is extremely hard sci-fi.


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Iain M Banks, well-plotted,

Iain M Banks, well-plotted, fantastic but convincing, well worked out settings, fast-paced often complex plots. 

Most recent SF novel is "Matter". Right up to his standard.

Stephen Baxter. Actually co-wrote "Time's Eye" with Arthur C Clarke, published in 2004.

Peter F Hamilton - definitely hard SF, with some weird elements, at times.

There are more, but those name dominate my most recent pile, at least in SF - I'm also into some Fantasy authors as well...

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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fantastic.  thanks to

fantastic.  thanks to everyone for all the recommendations so far.  i forgot about heinlein.  definitely heard of him but haven't read him.  what about orson scott card?  i've never been able to figure out where he is on the radar.

i'm definitely interested in hard sf that addresses ideas about human nature and our place in the universe, and i love a surrealistic edge.  that's why i decided to get into clarke.  so anybody who keeps that legacy alive interests me.  i've seen stephen baxter and clarke's "time's eye" in the bookstore here but i'm a bit wary of collaborations.

speaking of fantasy, i had several friends in college who constantly recommended the forgotten realms "dark elf" and "icewind dale" trilogies to me.  anyone read them?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:fantastic. 

iwbiek wrote:

fantastic.  thanks to everyone for all the recommendations so far.  i forgot about heinlein.  definitely heard of him but haven't read him.  what about orson scott card?  i've never been able to figure out where he is on the radar.

i'm definitely interested in hard sf that addresses ideas about human nature and our place in the universe, and i love a surrealistic edge.  that's why i decided to get into clarke.  so anybody who keeps that legacy alive interests me.  i've seen stephen baxter and clarke's "time's eye" in the bookstore here but i'm a bit wary of collaborations.

speaking of fantasy, i had several friends in college who constantly recommended the forgotten realms "dark elf" and "icewind dale" trilogies to me.  anyone read them?

Not me. Not familiar off hand.

I almost mentioned Orson Scott Card. The Ender series really worked for me.

My super favorite fantasy author is Stephen Donaldson. The Tales of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever. Into its Third trilogy. Absolutely fantastic, with the sort of edge that should appeal to a hard SF enthusiast.

I liked Terry Goodkind's 'Sword of Truth' series.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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I agree with the others,

I agree with the others, anything by Heinlein, Asimov or Clarke.

Robert Heinlein is my all time favorite Sci-Fi writer. I have read all of his books, short stories and series.

For Heinlein, the best sequence is to read them as he wrote them.

Go here for a complete list of his books with dates - http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/robert-heinlein/

I've also read all of Isaac Asimov's Sci-Fi though not all of his non-fiction, he has 3 different series themes, Robots, Foundation and Empire which he eventually brings altogether in his book, Robots and Empire. See here for list - http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/a/isaac-asimov/

Arthur Clarke's books are also equally fantastic and I have read all of his Sci-Fi as well.  See here - http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/arthur-c-clarke/

You can start with his Odyssey series or his Rama series. I particularity like the Rama series which started with Rendezvous with Rama.

Other good Sci-Fi authors are James P Hogan, Simon Hawke, Fredrick Pohl, Spider Robinson and recent author CJ Ryan.

Even L Ron Hubbard's Mission Earth series was really fun to read, it is satire throughout and makes you wonder if L Ron pulled a fast one with his Scientology as a big satirical joke.

 

Hope this helps some.

 

 

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I don't know how much known

I don't know how much known fact that is, but Frank Herbert didn't write just Dune. He wrote many books from the times before and after Dune. Some of them are post-mortem, finished by his children from numerous and complex notes that were found in some safe, somewhere. I've read most of them, and I have to say, though the premise is desperately unoriginal (humans vs evul robotz) everything else is a masterpiece.
They are all translated to Czech language. I don't know if you can find them in common bookstores in Slovakia. I personally like to visit an e-book collection, belonging to a certain Rob'em Good of Sharebook forest.

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... just wtf is "hard

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?


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The Doomed Soul wrote:...

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

basically sci-fi about the future of mankind--as opposed to made-up systems like in star wars or dune--with more or less scientifically plausible situations.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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The Doomed Soul wrote:...

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

I think the difference is the same as between Star wars and Star Trek. Star Wars don't include an intriguing episodes of how the lightsabers were invented, how midichlorians were discovered, or how Chewbaccas were finally proven to be intelligent species Smiling

And hey, iwbiek, Dune IS about the future of mankind! Really, it keeps a great continuity from almost our times to like 30 000 years into the future. It's not a made-up world, it's still in our galaxy, with Earth, and even religions known today, like Judaism or Islam. By your definition, it should be hard sci-fi.

 
But if hard sci-fi means harsh sci-fi, I recommend cyberpunk, like Neal Stephenson, William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, and so on.
I have no objections to the recommendations of others, great picks so far, I've read most of it. I'd also add David Gerrold, who's 5 books I have read were all magnificent and soaked with originality. However, they left a great abstinence syndrome, because the Chtorran wars series aren't finished yet and the 'Under the eyes of god' is just one book, hopefully first of many.

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"Tau Zero" by Poul Anderson

"Tau Zero" by Poul Anderson is a pretty good example of hard sci-fi. It starts off a little dry but is a pretty good book once the story starts moving about 30 or 40 pages into the book.  Joe Haldeman is one of my favorite sci-fi authors and the aforementioned Orson Scott Card writes some pretty good books, particulary the first book in the "Ender's Game" series (the rest sucked after the first book, in my opinion).


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The Doomed Soul wrote:...

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

 

Shows the actual penetration. 


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iwbiek wrote:The Doomed Soul

iwbiek wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

basically sci-fi about the future of mankind--as opposed to made-up systems like in star wars or dune--with more or less scientifically plausible situations.

 

If that's what you're going by, I'll recommend "The Book Of Dave" again, by Will Self. Although it's more of a post-apocalyptic kind of a thing, I guess. 

Anything by Iain Banks is indeed worth reading.

As for Orson Scott Card, I do believe he sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons, but that's just my opinion.


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Anonymouse wrote:iwbiek

Anonymouse wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

basically sci-fi about the future of mankind--as opposed to made-up systems like in star wars or dune--with more or less scientifically plausible situations.

 

If that's what you're going by, I'll recommend "The Book Of Dave" again, by Will Self. Although it's more of a post-apocalyptic kind of a thing, I guess. 

Anything by Iain Banks is indeed worth reading.

As for Orson Scott Card, I do believe he sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons, but that's just my opinion.

I didn't initially mention OSC, really precisely because I am aware that there are people who don't like his stuff.

BTW, I read your last sentence out to Brian37, who I am currently talking to on Skype, and he wants to know if he has your ok to use the phrase "he sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons"...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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The Doomed Soul wrote:...

The Doomed Soul wrote:
... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

 

That is a fair question. For me, I don't think that there is a clear line where one can apply a binary choice. Lots of stuff can be hard sci-fi without being grounded in immediately predictable technology.

 

Sure, there are entries that are pretty clearly grounded in what we can do in the near future if we are willing to do so. Asimov's “Marooned off Vesta” comes to mind as an example.

 

However, I would still consider a work to be firmly in the sci-fi field if the author choose to introduce elements of possible technology and then explore what comes from such things existing. To me, it matters little if those things ever come to be provided that there is some reasonable exploration of the effect of such things in general.

 

 

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:o

stuntgibbon wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

 

Shows the actual penetration. 

 

Oh my.

 

 

On another note, I've never heard of this term. It sounds like it is just stories about dystopian futures though.

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The Doomed Soul wrote:...

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

Sci-fi that tries to ground itself in real science rather than going off onto fanstasy-woo type stuff. Star Wars and Dune are extremely 'soft' on this scale. "Hard" sci-fi tends to deal with what it would actually be like to try to be a space traveling species. Ie: taking thousands of years to travel from one star to another, not having psychic or mystical powers, and no turning on a magical device that allows for faster than light speed travel.

 

Luminon wrote:

Some of them are post-mortem, finished by his children from numerous and complex notes that were found in some safe, somewhere. I've read most of them, and I have to say, though the premise is desperately unoriginal (humans vs evul robotz) everything else is a masterpiece.

"Dune" was a masterpiece. It was one of the softest sci-fi novels ever written, but I think it is one of the best novels ever written. God Emporer was also an amazing book. The other books written by Frank Herbert were of lower quality (not as amazing as "Dune" ), but still rather good novels. The "Dosadi Experiment" and the "Jesus Incident" were good. "Hellstrom's Hive" was very poorly written, but had great sci-fi concepts in it. The books written by Frank's son and that other author are pure shit. I don't believe for a second that they are based off of Frank's notes. They contradict Dune cannon constantly. They contradict "Dune" cannon so much that they simply can not be in the same fictional universe as the origional "Dune" series. It pains me that Brian Herbert is raping his father's legacy in order to churn out those pulp novels. I don't mean to go into a fanboy rant against Brian Herbert, but "rape" is the only word that can used to describe what he is doing to his father's life work.

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BobSpence1 wrote:BTW, I read

BobSpence1 wrote:

BTW, I read your last sentence out to Brian37, who I am currently talking to on Skype, and he wants to know if he has your ok to use the phrase "he sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons"...

Lol, sure. I probably stole it from him anyway.


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"I think the difference is

"I think the difference is the same as between Star wars and Star Trek. Star Wars don't include an intriguing episodes of how the lightsabers were invented, how midichlorians were discovered, or how Chewbaccas were finally proven to be intelligent species "

Actually, Star Wars has covered all these things. Lightsabers started as crystal swords. Chewbacca was a Wookie, from the planet Kashyyyk. Medichlorians are mitochondria with a cool ability.

I would say both Star Trek and Star Wars don't qualify as hard sci-fi. Both lean heavy on the mythological, and both are in created settings. Star Trek might use our actual galaxy as a starting point instead of making a galaxy up, but they built so much on top of it that there's no real difference between them. You have the Force in one, Q in another, and both depend on a FTL speed which has largely been proved as impossible.

Stargate is closer to good, hard, sci-fi.

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Vastet wrote:"I think the

Vastet wrote:
"I think the difference is the same as between Star wars and Star Trek. Star Wars don't include an intriguing episodes of how the lightsabers were invented, how midichlorians were discovered, or how Chewbaccas were finally proven to be intelligent species " Actually, Star Wars has covered all these things. Lightsabers started as crystal swords. Chewbacca was a Wookie, from the planet Kashyyyk. Medichlorians are mitochondria with a cool ability. I would say both Star Trek and Star Wars don't qualify as hard sci-fi. Both lean heavy on the mythological, and both are in created settings. Star Trek might use our actual galaxy as a starting point instead of making a galaxy up, but they built so much on top of it that there's no real difference between them. You have the Force in one, Q in another, and both depend on a FTL speed which has largely been proved as impossible. Stargate is closer to good, hard, sci-fi.

yeah, but in my opinion, star trek, like clarke's mythos, explores concepts of humanity's traits, whether or not they can be overcome, and humanity's place in the universe.  thus, while soft sf, it's incredibly intelligent soft sf, while star wars seems to have humans just so the audience can relate to the protagonists.  star wars are kid's fairy tales, and often bad ones, sometimes on the level of pokemon or shit like that.  the only exception i can think of is perhaps the thrawn trilogy, but i'm basing that only on excerpts and synopses i've read, since i haven't read the novels, but they seem like moderately intelligent stories, especially when it comes to thrawn's contempt of palpatine's whole basic strategy. 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote: i'm

iwbiek wrote:

 

i'm definitely interested in hard sf that addresses ideas about human nature and our place in the universe, and i love a surrealistic edge.

A couple of my favorite SF authors who might suit your interest are Harry Harrison and Crawford Killian.

By Harrison, check out "Make Room! Make Room!". The film "Soylent Green" was based on this book, though I think the book is much better. Also, try his "Eden" trilogy - "West of Eden", "Winter in Eden" and "Return to Eden" - which is based on the "what-if" scenario that dinosaurs never went extinct, and they developed societies, weapons, etc. alongside humans. Lastly, you can also try "A Rebel in Time", about a modern-day U.S. Army colonel who smuggles weapons technology back in time to help the South win the Civil War and the black sergeant who is sent back to stop him.

By Killian, I would recommend his "Chronoplane Wars" trilogy - "The Fall of the Republic", "Rogue Emperor" and "The Empire of Time". Basic summary is that humans develop the capability to travel into the past and manipulate events without actually changing the timeline, and there is a CIA-type organization in charge of it all.

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geirj wrote:By Harrison,

geirj wrote:

By Harrison, check out "Make Room! Make Room!".

holy shit!  i picked up an old '70s paperback edition of that book for a dime at a library sale about two years ago, along with several other old dystopia novels.  it seems those were really popular about 30 years ago.

i just picked it up at random and had never heard it.  i bought it as much for the campy pulp cover artwork as anything else.  but it's back home in the US at my dad's now.  dammit!  well, i might make it back to the states in about 6 months or so, so i'll pick it up then.  thanks for the tip!

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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:3



 


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stuntgibbon wrote:The Doomed

stuntgibbon wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

 

Shows the actual penetration. 

   Awww crap sg, you beat me to it.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

stuntgibbon wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... just wtf is "hard Sci-fi" ?

 

Shows the actual penetration. 

   Awww crap sg, you beat me to it.

at the risk of sounding like both a necrophiliac and a pedophile, i admit it: i've always found that picture of the zombie little girl extremely hot.

is it necrophilia if it's a zombie?  and do statutory rape laws apply to zombies?

this is hard sc-fi, btw.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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" star wars are kid's fairy

" star wars are kid's fairy tales, and often bad ones, sometimes on the level of pokemon or shit like that."

Oh hell no. pokemon? I must feed you to a group of Japanese kids now.

Frankly, Star Trek is far more like a kids fairy tale. The amount of bad science that goes into an episode of Trek is amazing. And so much time travel. And every single species is anthropomorphicized way too much. Ugh.
Star Wars is, despite the Force, far more grounded in reality and adult themes. The movies were constructed for all ages. Many of the first series of books were childish or lacking in other areas, but a few author's had good work. Zahn at the top of the stack, obviously, with 5 books before the new publisher took over. As of that new publisher, christened by Salvatore, the quality of the stories has skyrocketted. And they actually pay attention to continuity. Species actually have their own psychologies in Star Wars. In Trek everyone is human, with or without makeup.

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Vastet wrote:" star wars are

Vastet wrote:
" star wars are kid's fairy tales, and often bad ones, sometimes on the level of pokemon or shit like that." Oh hell no. pokemon? I must feed you to a group of Japanese kids now. Frankly, Star Trek is far more like a kids fairy tale. The amount of bad science that goes into an episode of Trek is amazing. And so much time travel. And every single species is anthropomorphicized way too much. Ugh. Star Wars is, despite the Force, far more grounded in reality and adult themes. The movies were constructed for all ages. Many of the first series of books were childish or lacking in other areas, but a few author's had good work. Zahn at the top of the stack, obviously, with 5 books before the new publisher took over. As of that new publisher, christened by Salvatore, the quality of the stories has skyrocketted. And they actually pay attention to continuity. Species actually have their own psychologies in Star Wars. In Trek everyone is human, with or without makeup.

oh come on, man, the original films were basically good vs. evil king arthur myth warmed over with lasers.  as for the prequels, if you don't think those were monumentally childish, then obviously we work on two different astral planes.  it's a pity, too, because the prequels had much more potential for complex ambiguities than the original films, what with the anakin-->vader transformation.  but they just plain fucked it up.

yes, nobody is arguing that star trek isn't the softest of the soft--in fact, their campiness is part of their appeal to me--however, as i said, they regularly address the existential problems of humanity.  quite frankly, i like it that aliens are on the periphery.  i mean, star wars swings way too far in the other direction.  what the fuck are humans in star wars?  where do they come from?  who gives a shit?  like i said, they're there so the normal film-going slob can identify with the protagonists.  also, let's not forget the fact, as was hammered to death in another thread about a year ago, that star wars rips a great deal of its shit off dune.

still, i should make it clear that there are only two parts of the star trek mythology that interest me: the films and TNG.  the original series is just bad.  sorry, i really think so.  the films (at least up to generations) are incredible, especially, imo (and this isn't a common choice), the first one.  i just find the idea of v'ger to be really fucking awesome.  as for TNG, that series was golden.  the borg rock and star wars has NOTHING that original (first contact and voyager fucked up the borg, which is why i ignore both).  also, you can't say that TNG didn't try REALLY hard to explore alien psychologies.  the klingons are much more developed than in the original series, and the whole vulcan/romulan dichotomy is great.  of course star trek aliens are much more humanoid than star wars aliens, for the simple reason that the producers of star trek never had the kind of resources that industrial light and magic has (and it's a pity, because lucas pisses them away).

i don't make my choice between star wars and star trek based on which is "more grounded in reality."  i think it's been pretty well established in this thread that any sci-fi which uses a sort of "hyperspace" or "warp speed" as a plot device has forfeited any claim to hardness.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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There is a lot, in the

There is a lot, in the original series particularly, that was there mainly because of limited funds.

I understand that a big reason for the 'transporter' was that it was much cheaper than mocking up a convincing shuttle to get them down to the surface of a planet.

 

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"oh come on, man, the

"oh come on, man, the original films were basically good vs. evil king arthur myth warmed over with lasers."

And the first Star Trek was nothing more than morality tales too. There was no science at all in the series back then, beyond use of technology.

"as for the prequels, if you don't think thosewere monumentallychildish, then obviously we work on two different astral planes.  it's a pity, too, because the prequels had much more potential for complex ambiguities than the original films, what with the anakin-->vader transformation.  but they just plain fucked it up."

The only thing childish and fucked up about the prequels was Jar Jar. Everything else was brilliant.

"i mean, star wars swings way too far in the other direction.  what the fuck are humans in star wars?  where do they come from?  who gives a shit?"

Just another species, the way it should be. Star Trek elevates humanity above and beyond all other life. It elevates us even beyond an actual god, Q. In Star Wars, we're just another species.

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"like i said, they're there

"like i said, they're there so the normal film-going slob can identify with the protagonists.  also, let's not forget the fact, as was hammered to death in another thread about a year ago, that star wars rips a great deal of its shit off dune."

Every story rips off a previous one. If that's the only basis for disliking something that far exceeded its predecessor in every way, then we might as well not write stories. I'll also add that Dune is really nothing like Star Wars, as I said in that thread. Episode 4 maybe has a lot of similarities, but nothing else in the entire cannon.

"still, i should make it clear that there are only two parts of the star trek mythology that interest me: the films and TNG.  the original series is just bad.  sorry, i really think so.  the films (at least up to generations) are incredible, especially, imo (and this isn't a common choice), the first one."

Wow. I hated the first one. It was like 60 minutes of boring CG that tried to make up for 3 seasons of crappy graphics

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(made possible by Star Wars,

(made possible by Star Wars, ironically), with 60 minutes of storyline that made Voyager into a super weapon. Add a hot bald chick and a command dilemma and you've got a film I'll never watch again. The potential was there, but nothing happened.

" the borg rock and star wars has NOTHING that original (first contact and voyager fucked up the borg, which is why i ignore both)."

I would argue that was ST ripping off Doctor Who. It wasn't really original. Though the Borg are the epitome of awesome. But Species 8472 doesn't hold a candle to the Yuzzhan Vong.

"also, you can't say that TNG didn't try REALLY hard to explore alien psychologies."

I can. Every single alien problem is based on a human one. Many of which were current events of the time. Beyond current events, Klingons are just Spartans with space ships. The Vulcan/Romulan rift is mirrored by plenty of real life scenarios, most closely the American split from Britain. And multiple church splits before that.

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"of course star trek aliens

"of course star trek aliens are much more humanoid than star wars aliens, for the simple reason that the producers of star trek never had the kind of resources that industrial light and magic has (and it's a pity, because lucas pisses them away)."

That's not even true man. Lucas CREATED those effects WITH those movies, and practically no money at all, because he wouldn't sell the rights to the studio.

"i don't make my choice between star wars and star trek based on which is "more grounded in reality."  i think it's been pretty well established in this thread that any sci-fi which uses a sort of "hyperspace" or "warp speed" as a plot device has forfeited any claim to hardness."

Personally, I'm one of the few to love both. I just love them for different reasons. Star Trek uses socialism, which is sweet. Star Wars uses capitalism, which I'm not a fan of. Both regard religion as largely irrelevant. The Force doesn't count, because the Force is demonstrable within the universe. Same with Q.

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Trek is clean and shiny,

Trek is clean and shiny, Wars is dirty and gritty. Trek examines ourselves, Wars makes us think about other possibilities. Wars uses military convention and strategy, Trek makes things up as it goes along.

Most importantly, for a story, Wars has a 30,000 odd year old history with unprecedented continuity. Literally unprecedented. Trek rarely keeps continuity through a season, let alone its entirety. Not one book is cannon. And its timeline is no more than 400 years. Worse, every year that goes by, Trek loses continuity simply by tying in to reality. Wars never crippled itself that way.

So I love both, but love Wars a lot more.

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Vastet wrote:Trek is clean

Vastet wrote:
Trek is clean and shiny, Wars is dirty and gritty. Trek examines ourselves, Wars makes us think about other possibilities. Wars uses military convention and strategy, Trek makes things up as it goes along. Most importantly, for a story, Wars has a 30,000 odd year old history with unprecedented continuity. Literally unprecedented. Trek rarely keeps continuity through a season, let alone its entirety. Not one book is cannon. And its timeline is no more than 400 years. Worse, every year that goes by, Trek loses continuity simply by tying in to reality. Wars never crippled itself that way. So I love both, but love Wars a lot more.

well, clearly we should just agree to disagree.

can we at least agree that babylon 5 was pretty stupid?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote: oh come on,

iwbiek wrote:

 

oh come on, man, the original films were basically good vs. evil king arthur myth warmed over with lasers. 

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


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"can we at least agree that

"can we at least agree that babylon 5 was pretty stupid?"

Lol. I enjoyed that too, though not as much as Trek or Stargate (the series, not the movie).

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Does 1/2 Prince count?

 

from wiki:

 

1/2 Prince (1/2 王子, 1/2 Ouji, Half Prince) is a Taiwanese manhua by Yu Wo and illustrated by Choi Hong Chong. The story takes place in the year 2100 A.D. where humans have developed highly realistic virtual reality games. The protagonist, 19 year-old female college student Feng Lan, is challenged by her twin brother Feng Yang Ming to play the newest popular virtual reality game - Second Life - without using the advantages of being a female character in the game. She decides to play as a male character and prove her skills as a swordsman.

 

 

So basically:

In the future almost everyone is playing virtual reality MMOs as hobbies. Some people have bad addiction to it and will skip work/school to play. 

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ClockCat wrote:So

ClockCat wrote:

So basically:

In the future almost everyone is playing virtual reality MMOs as hobbies. Some people have bad addiction to it and will skip work/school to play. 

Wait... its an addiction if i purposely missed work? ... several times... a week...  

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...................

JJ Savarin - Lemmus I, II, III

 

C. S. Friedman - Coldfire Trilogy

 

And as an aside and nothing to do with 'prediction' Sci-Fi.

All of the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett.

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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Abu Lahab wrote:All of the

Abu Lahab wrote:

All of the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett.

I have them all.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:Abu Lahab

BobSpence1 wrote:

Abu Lahab wrote:

All of the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett.

I have them all.

 

My already high opinion of you has just increased.

 

Sausage in a bun, sir?

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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I know it's not hard sci-fi,

I know it's not hard sci-fi, and even calling it sci-fi is a stretch, but I really enjoyed the Dark Tower series by Stephen King.  (It is set in the future, so that is qualification enough, right?)


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 I have all the Pratchett discworld stuff as well. Entertaining reads Laughing out loud

 

Oh, if you like those I'd suggest "Kingdom for Sale".

 

None of these are "hard sci fi" though. Still, good fantasy.

 

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I have read most of

I have read most of books by Stanislaw Lem. Good stuff, I don't regret it. Some books are serious (Solaris), some  humorous, some are absurd drama and some are futuristic tales. (Note: Stanislaw is Polish, therefore 'w' is used and read strictly as 'v' )

Brian Wilson Aldiss - very good stuff, definitely a hard sci-fi.

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iwbiek wrote:i was

iwbiek wrote:

i was mentioning to bobspence earlier that i'm starting to get into arthur c. clarke and i was wondering if anybody has any other hard sf authors they think are worth reading?  i never was a huge sf fan, apart from a couple star wars novels as a teen and an attempt to read dune, which i quit halfway through out of boredom.  nowadays, though, i'm very intrigued by hard sf. 

i don't have a wide selection of english books in the slovak bookstores unfortunately, but i have also seen some of asimov's foundation novels.  i'm also under the impression that ben bova is a hard sf author.  bradbury as well, i think.  ideas?

 

Clarke is good...I've read some of Asimov's short stories, but Frank Herbert's Dune series IMHO is probably the greatest sci-fi ever written.

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Abu Lahab wrote:Sausage in a

Abu Lahab wrote:

Sausage in a bun, sir?

And I'm cutting me own throat...