New to the site... But whats the point?

NiallStynes
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New to the site... But whats the point?

Hello everyone, my name is Niall and I am from Dublin, Ireland.  I just looked at the NightLine Debate on youtube and I thought that I'd stop by.

I felt very sympathic to the Atheist couple whom although had much more logical, educated and sensible answers...  I felt that because the debate was taking place somewhere in America, these two people would be seen as the nutjobs!

I got over my sympathy pretty quickly however, cause I really don't see the point of the Atheist Movement!  I unlike the couple on the show don't see any need to advertise the fact that I am an Atheist, its not because I am afraid, its because I don't think of it as any kind of identity.

When I was 16 or 17, I read the bible and thought to myself "Nahhh, I don't buy it.  It doesn't make sense.  Its not a reasonable thing to believe." and on that day, I put the book down and haven't picked it up since and with exception to the odd debate here and there, I haven't given religion or christianity another thought.

To me, thats what it means to be an Atheist, am I wrong?  When your an Atheist, you don't believe in intelligent design?  Essentially you don't have any religious belief's at all so why is it necessary to run a poster campaign to advertise your lack of belief's? I get it if its a religious faith trying to persuade people to turn to whatever God they believe in, but if your an Atheist you don't believe in God so what is the point of this poster campaign, promoting your lack of beliefs is kind of like a Rock Band releasing a CD with no songs on it and then touring to promote their lack of new material....   Its stupid, I don't get it.

Furthermore the whole concept of going to the supreme court to have the pledge of allegience changed?  Thats just silly, yeah I don't believe it which is why I wouldn't say it but why have Christians take it out of their pledge?  Its suppose to be their pledge so as Atheists why do you care if they are making their pledge to God or to their country or to some other cause...  Why try to change the inauguration?  If Obama was an Atheist I'd agree with you, because the act of him putting his hand on the bible and pledging to God to uphold the constitution would be a meaningless act if he didn't believe in God, but because he is a God Fearing man... the act surely has some merit, right???

I personally think that we have different idea's of what it means to be an Atheist.  I personally believe that everyone has to discover it for themselves, the act of trying to convert someone is completely against the point of it all, afterall we are atheists because we don't believe in God or Organised religion so why act like an organised non religion if there is such a thing.  When I became an Atheist I didn't feel any different that day than I had felt the day before, my daily routine hadn't changed, I merely had a different belief structure.

On the ABC show the lady states that she had read the Bible several times...  Why would you bother?  If you don't believe why would you read it a second time?  Its not exactly the most enjoyable of books, its certainly not light reading...  Why would you read it again?  If I don't like a movie, I turn it off. I certainly don't watch it over and over again and I don't study up on the actors and writers/directors so that I can some day write a book about how full of shit said movie was.

 

Its a shame cause the two of them were really well informed but I don't have any time for this "respect our lack of believes mentality"  It doesn't make any sense, because I am Atheist myself, I felt that I must be a different kind of Atheist to the two people on the show and in the end I found myself believing that even though the God Squad had very poor answers, they were smarter than the Atheist couple because atleast they believed in what they were debating about...  studying up on something that you have no belief or interest in makes you a bit of a dumbass as far as I am concerned.


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NiallStynes wrote:Hi again,

NiallStynes wrote:
Hi again, yeah I was already talking to someone about this, in short I still don't get the need to educate people about anything.

Do you realize how dumb that sounds, coming from someone who has spent hours blabbing on about how we shouldn't be outspoken?

I'm guessing, no, you don't realize how dumb it sounds.

Quote:
The beautiful thing about being an Atheist is that you don't really have to do anything

But we can if we want, right?

Quote:
so educating people to accept you for who you are when there is no way in hell that they would even know unless you told them, suggests to me that you would only tell them to be open about your lack belief in God, I just don't understand why thats so important to you, its not to me

So, exactly why are you coming on this board trying to educate us about who you are, when there's no way we would have known you unless you told us? I just don't understand why that's so important to you.

Quote:
Someone explained it earlier as if Atheists were like people who don't collect stamps, which I thought was a good analogy, I don't invite people over to show them my lack of a stamp collection.

Man, you are thick.

I was the one who wrote that, and you completely missed what I wrote just one sentence after: "However, your position only makes sense if theists keep their theism to themselves."

The problem is that they don't. You seem to be incapable of seeing this.

1) Beliefs influence actions.

2) Theism influence theists' actions.

3) Some theist actions affect atheists negatively.

4) Some atheists don't like that.

5) Some of those atheists choose to speak out about it to try to change things.

6) Some atheists don't like other atheists speaking out.

7) Some dumbass atheists come on atheist boards to try to change other atheists saying, "You shouldn't speak out to try to change things!"

8 ) Some of the atheists on the atheist boards say, "Hey dumbass, you're a dumbass!"

What more is there to say? Either you don't understand steps 1-5, in which case you're a dumbass, or you're committing hypocrisy in step 7, in which case you're a dumbass.

And a troll.

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NiallStynes wrote:BobSpence1

NiallStynes wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

 

So surely you understand just why we speak out - by your own logic, we have more reason to speak out against Theists than you do against us.

 

I don't even in the slightest bit understand.  Being outspoken about your lack of religious belief is kind of like being outspoken about being straight.  Nobody probably even noticed till you started making all the noise.  Do you really think that there were people in your community saying "You know, I didn't see Bob in Church this week?  Didn't see him last week either?  Something very fishy is going on here!!!"

I just think that we are on a different page is all, anyway thats me done for a few days, I gotta go to Germany.   They do great beer in Germany...

What is so difficult to understand? We are being outspoken that it is OK not to believe in God, which is directly in opposition to what many people, especially in the US, believe.

Note, the message is NOT just about saying we don't believe, it is about getting across that that does not make us immoral, or worse.

Being outspoken about being 'straight', and that that was a legitimate life-style, would be justified if being 'straight' was generally considered sinful. That would be the analogy.

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BobSpence1 wrote:What is so

BobSpence1 wrote:

What is so difficult to understand? We are being outspoken that it is OK not to believe in God, which is directly in opposition to what many people, especially in the US, believe.

Note, the message is NOT just about saying we don't believe, it is about getting across that that does not make us immoral, or worse.

Being outspoken about being 'straight', and that that was a legitimate life-style, would be justified if being 'straight' was generally considered sinful. That would be the analogy.

Never mind, Bob. Concern troll is concerned. If he was intellectually honest he would have immediately seen that the correct analogy is with gays, not straights. Hey Niall, why don't you go shout down all the vocal gay activists? What's that? Because it would expose how utterly hypocritical, empty, and pointless your concern about vocal atheist activists is? That's what I thought.

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NiallStynes wrote: People

NiallStynes wrote:

People think that because I haven't grown up in America that I don't understand what its like to grow up with such a religious regime, maybe there is some truth to this...

There is probably a lot of truth to it. There are a lot of differences. In many ways the situation in Ireland with religious politicking has been much worse and more oppressive than in the US, but for that reason, surely you can understand why an American atheist might want to avoid it happening to them too. It's called progressive thinking.

That is probably the main difference really, come to think of it. Growing up in Ireland you knew you were growing up in a country traditionally run and ruled by Catholicism whereas in America you're taught the rhetoric that you're growing up in the anti-Eire, the land of the 'free' or whatever, on the one hand the US is telling itself 'we're free from all religious oppression' while on the other it bows and buckles to ever increasingly backward evangelical populism.

In Ireland at least you can feel like your country is moving forward into enlightenment on this issue, right? Cause everywhere the new "Power for Jesus" or "Biblical morality" etc bullshit movements are digging their claws into, traditionally, secular politics it's become difficult to believe we can without a fight.

 

P.s. (re: whats a sulk) I wasn't presuming anything as to your state of mind , I was calling your post a whinge because it was just that. It was otherwise entirely without merit.

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The question of whether there's a god

 

Is really the question where did we come from. And it's a question worth pursuing relentlessly.

I think I agree with others who've said they continue to argue against god because the theist position is generally hostile to unbelievers.

Theists never concede an argument even when they're wrong. They'll seep around every barrier in their pursuit of what they see as solid ground.

It's not like the religions common to our part of the world are faintly tolerant. Given half a chance some of these nutbags would throw scientists in gaol for

heresy. They believe after all, that we are the pawns of satan and that every idea not in their book is immoral.

I don't think being being utterly certain there is no god would necessarily allow you to stop thinking and talking about the issues that surround religion.

That would be not caring about the issues one way or another - not a total absence of belief.

I'm personally glad people are thrashing this shit out on RRS. It helps me no end even if I often have no idea what some of you folks are talking about.

Nor is it just that atheism needs a voice. Kids out there who can't bend their minds into a theistic mold need to know that everything's ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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NiallStynes wrote:An Atheist

NiallStynes wrote:

An Atheist promotion is promoting science, ethics, logic and rationality rather than Atheism...  Honestly I don't get that, if you want to promote either of the above then God doesn't even need to be mentioned.

It does when you are attempting to promote science and rationality to people whose religion calls for them to bluntly and outrightly reject those things as the devils work.

 

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Eloise wrote:NiallStynes

Eloise wrote:

NiallStynes wrote:

People think that because I haven't grown up in America that I don't understand what its like to grow up with such a religious regime, maybe there is some truth to this...

There is probably a lot of truth to it. There are a lot of differences. In many ways the situation in Ireland with religious politicking has been much worse and more oppressive than in the US, but for that reason, surely you can understand why an American atheist might want to avoid it happening to them too. It's called progressive thinking.

That is probably the main difference really, come to think of it. Growing up in Ireland you knew you were growing up in a country traditionally run and ruled by Catholicism whereas in America you're taught the rhetoric that you're growing up in the anti-Eire, the land of the 'free' or whatever, on the one hand the US is telling itself 'we're free from all religious oppression' while on the other it bows and buckles to ever increasingly backward evangelical populism.

In Ireland at least you can feel like your country is moving forward into enlightenment on this issue, right? Cause everywhere the new "Power for Jesus" or "Biblical morality" etc bullshit movements are digging their claws into, traditionally, secular politics it's become difficult to believe we can without a fight.

 

P.s. (re: whats a sulk) I wasn't presuming anything as to your state of mind , I was calling your post a whinge because it was just that. It was otherwise entirely without merit.

i also would like to second this and add that i myself as an american am concerned because, on the whole, compared with other brands of christianity, american "low-church" evangelicalism is just a sick fucking religion.  i'll attempt to explain.

i now live in slovakia, a traditionally catholic country which, while not as volatile as ireland, still has its catholic nationalist (read: fascist) party in the governing coalition, has a lot of fucking neo-nazis, has the black mark of having been a nazi puppet state with a catholic bishop as president, and still has a lot of the catholic episcopate (including the archbishop of bratislava) singing the wartime nazi president's praises to this day.  but this is all to be expected (though not excused, of course) because, imho, the root of the problem is nationalism, and the church always latches onto nationalism in both catholic and orthodox countries.  if there were no church, the violent nationalism would still be there, as it always is in countries which have spent the majority of their histories under the heel of one conqueror or another.

however, american nationalism does not exist, since there is no american "nationality" (in a sense akin to, but not necessarily identical with, ethnicity), nor does the USA have a history of being under long periods of oppression (the idea of the british as having been oppressors in the colonies is laughable, at least as far as hm's subjects were concerned).  there is american xenophobia, but this is not the same as nationalism.  my point is, the fascists and nationalists embrace the church because it jives with their ideology, and the rest of catholic central europe is overwhelmingly culturally catholic.  american evangelicalism, however, is aggressive fundamentally for intrinsic ideological reasons.  they simply believe that society must conform to their metaphysical views, whereas european christianity is often incidental to outside ideologies (outside in the sense of beyond the pale of official doctrine). 

of course, one of the things that makes this possible is the lack of "official doctrine" in american evangelicalism.  there is no pope or patriarch or ecumenical council to draw things neatly together.  interdenominational fellowships can try their best but they end up being ideologically shallow, weak, and ineffective.  when the current of religious action stems ultimately from the prejudices of every individual believer, as opposed to the prejudices of one infallible man or institution, cacophany and schizophrenia ensue.  young children are taught that they're grubby little shits and that they're in danger of eternal, painful, graphically described torment.  that also happens in catholicism, fair enough, but, unlike catholic children, american churchgoing children are offered a million ways out of this punishment, often dependent not only on the whims of an individual denomination or congregation, but even on the whims of an individual pastor or sunday school teacher.  they're also cautioned that they goddamn well better find the right one, and of course the right one is the one they're currently being assaulted with.  many of them carry this with them their whole lives.

such confusion leads to a stronger and stronger desire for absolute certainty.  since evangelicalism allows for only one authority, the bible, one must try harder and harder to make sure one is interpreting the bible correctly.  this leads of course to biblical literalism and the idea of biblical inerrancy.  biblical inerrancy is the belief that the bible is the ultimate and final authority on every issue to which it speaks.  this is fucking bollocks, to borrow a phrase from my british brothers across the waters (sorry, my wife subjected me to a jamie oliver marathon today).  it means that one further and further must try to force the 21st century globalized world into the worldview of second millennium bce nomads, which ultimately means, of course, that the political system must be changed.  in many places in the usa, particularly the "bible belt," they are changing it, and it's my opinion that they will change it much more quickly and profoundly if we all sit on our fucking hands.

the world doesn't just drift listlessly.  people do shit.  some shit does not need to get done.  i want to help stop that shit from getting done.  fuck that shit.

the end.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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NiallStynes wrote:Nobody

NiallStynes wrote:
Nobody probably even noticed till you started making all the noise.  Do you really think that there were people in your community saying "You know, I didn't see Bob in Church this week?  Didn't see him last week either?  Something very fishy is going on here!!!"

Yes! Yes! Yes! And lots more.

Not me specifically, but in some parts of the world and in some communities, people will lose their respect for you if you are an atheist, because you are an atheist. You can lose the support of family members and friends. If you run a business, you can lose customers; ask Hamby. In recent polls, atheists are the least trusted group of minorities in America; people dislike us more than homosexuals, Mormons, Scientologists, etc. 

You keep saying that you grew up surrounded by religion. That may be true, but based what you've written in this thread, it's clear that you've never really had religion shoved in your face or been pressured to change your beliefs via ethos. You just don't get it.

 

NiallStynes wrote:
Regarding the last statement, I think I need to clarify that because it seems to have been completely taken out of context.  an example if I may...  say you have two guys, both of them are apprentice plumbers and one of them is barely able to keep up with the course load while the other not only excels but is left thinking, "Why didn't I go to college and become an engineer instead, I am certainly smart enough" even though there is no doubt which one of these guys is more intellectual, but which one made the smarter decision in becoming a plumber?  In this context I was stating that because the RRS guys seem to have made better interpretations of religious doctrine, surely the guys with faith and therefore use of that knowledge would be better served with it rather than the guys who believe it all to be a bunch of hutch?

Your analogy doesn't make any sense to me. 

NiallStynes wrote:
Hi again, yeah I was already talking to someone about this, in short I still don't get the need to educate people about anything.  The beautiful thing about being an Atheist is that you don't really have to do anything, 

Being an atheist just means that you don't believe in any Gods, so of course you don't "need" or "have to" educate anyone about anything as some sort of atheistic requirement. 

There are other good reasons for doing things. Duh!

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Do you realize how dumb that

Do you realize how dumb that sounds, coming from someone who has spent hours blabbing on about how we shouldn't be outspoken?

I'm guessing, no, you don't realize how dumb it sounds.

I of course was referring to, educating them about being an Atheist...  I am sure that you knew this but perhaps I should clarify everything that I say for fear of having the punctuation police after me.  And No I don't see how dumb it sounds, were Atheists remember???  On the Belief's front we are a non entity, I won't get offended at your lack of a God, if you don't get offended at my lack of sense, so please lets try to keep the name calling to a bit of a more respectful manner.

But we can if we want, right?

Sure, I can come onto a public message board and debate the need if I like.

So, exactly why are you coming on this board trying to educate us about who you are, when there's no way we would have known you unless you told us? I just don't understand why that's so important to you.

Because that's just the kind of Jerk I am!!!

Man, you are thick.  Think skinned I hope you meant?

I was the one who wrote that, and you completely missed what I wrote just one sentence after: "However, your position only makes sense if theists keep their theism to themselves."

Why would they they keep it to themselves?  I said this somewhere else, they have faith and a belief in something you don't, so promoting your faith and the word of God as you see it, is a calling to bring as many people into the light of Jesus to a theist there is no higher calling...  How does convincing people that there is no God, benefit you?  I don't believe for one second that campaign was ever about freedom from religious oppression but rather that it was about offending as many christian values as you can and thats not what I'm about.

 The problem is that they don't. You seem to be incapable of seeing this.

1) Beliefs influence actions.  Absolutely.

2) Theism influence theists' actions.   Sure, just like Money influence's capitalists actions.

3) Some theist actions affect atheists negatively.   Give me an everyday example, and please don't say the  pledge or the inauguration or hanging angels on christmas tree's this isn't oppression, its not even and inconvenience.

4) Some atheists don't like that.   Some Atheists are whiney lil bitches.

5) Some of those atheists choose to speak out about it to try to change things.  If they are things that affect you so badly then you have my compliments, if not then what was the point.

6) Some atheists don't like other atheists speaking out.  For fear of being tarred with the same brush.

7) Some dumbass atheists come on atheist boards to try to change other atheists saying, "You shouldn't speak out to try to change things!"    Some Atheists get all offended at this.

8 ) Some of the atheists on the atheist boards say, "Hey dumbass, you're a dumbass!"    Hhhhmmm I'm seeing a pattern here.

What more is there to say? Either you don't understand steps 1-5, in which case you're a dumbass, or you're committing hypocrisy in step 7, in which case you're a dumbass.

And a troll.   Does the relevance of whether I am a "troll" or not suggest that you are uncomfortable discussing your lack of beliefs with someone whom may or may not be an atheist?  I thought this was a search for truth, why does it matter where my allegiance lie?

 

What is so difficult to understand? We are being outspoken that it is OK not to believe in God, which is directly in opposition to what many people, especially in the US, believe.

Note, the message is NOT just about saying we don't believe, it is about getting across that that does not make us immoral, or worse.

Being outspoken about being 'straight', and that that was a legitimate life-style, would be justified if being 'straight' was generally considered sinful. That would be the analogy.

Sorry, I still think that being an Atheist is a non entity, I don't think that my lack of support of the Irish Soccer team (because we suck) makes me unpatriotic (although the whole France world cup thing still blows).

Never mind, Bob. Concern troll is concerned. If he was intellectually honest he would have immediately seen that the correct analogy is with gays, not straights. Hey Niall, why don't you go shout down all the vocal gay activists? What's that? Because it would expose how utterly hypocritical, empty, and pointless your concern about vocal atheist activists is? That's what I thought.

Gay's aren't the right analogy because they do have a legitimate reason to protest for their rights, straight people don't.  Christian's fighting for lost souls, this I get...  Muslims speaking out so that they are not misunderstood, this I get...  Any religion speaking out for itself, this I get...  Atheist speaking out for what exactly???  So that people don't misinterpret you as deviants, OK fair enough...  I still think that it doesn't really need to be said as its kind of common sense, but when I originally started this thread thats not what people were saying to me.

There is probably a lot of truth to it. There are a lot of differences. In many ways the situation in Ireland with religious politicking has been much worse and more oppressive than in the US, but for that reason, surely you can understand why an American atheist might want to avoid it happening to them too. It's called progressive thinking.

That is probably the main difference really, come to think of it. Growing up in Ireland you knew you were growing up in a country traditionally run and ruled by Catholicism whereas in America you're taught the rhetoric that you're growing up in the anti-Eire, the land of the 'free' or whatever, on the one hand the US is telling itself 'we're free from all religious oppression' while on the other it bows and buckles to ever increasingly backward evangelical populism.

In Ireland at least you can feel like your country is moving forward into enlightenment on this issue, right? Cause everywhere the new "Power for Jesus" or "Biblical morality" etc bullshit movements are digging their claws into, traditionally, secular politics it's become difficult to believe we can without a fight.

 

P.s. (re: whats a sulk) I wasn't presuming anything as to your state of mind , I was calling your post a whinge because it was just that. It was otherwise entirely without merit.

This is pretty much bang on the money as we say...  When I'm at a rally in Ireland and we are fighting for some serious breach of civil rights and then when I hear of people in the States fighting for the right to have IN GOD WE TRUST changed, it makes me think to myself, "Jesus lads atleast pick something worth fighting for."

iwbiek, sorry I don't have the time but I do actually for the most part agree.

Yes! Yes! Yes! And lots more.

Not me specifically, but in some parts of the world and in some communities, people will lose their respect for you if you are an atheist, because you are an atheist. You can lose the support of family members and friends. If you run a business, you can lose customers; ask Hamby. In recent polls, atheists are the least trusted group of minorities in America; people dislike us more than homosexuals, Mormons, Scientologists, etc. 

The world is full of idiots, but so what...  As you can probably tell from my post, being unpopular isn't a deciding factor for me and since coming onto this site I have been called an idiot, a dumbass, stupid and other things, so now that the shoe is on the other foot isn't it refreshing to know that Atheists don't react that differently when someone challenges their beliefs, or indeed lack of beliefs?

You keep saying that you grew up surrounded by religion. That may be true, but based what you've written in this thread, it's clear that you've never really had religion shoved in your face or been pressured to change your beliefs via ethos. You just don't get it.

I get it, and as Eloise pointed out perhaps my upbringing has given me a pretty blase outlook on problems in America, I think that when we get looked at as a bunch of crazies for wanting to change some things that aren't really that important, when something important does come up we'll be written off as the nutjobs that made a lot of noise about nothing all that time ago.

Your analogy doesn't make any sense to me. 

I was trying to say that studying the bible and reading up on religious doctrine is a complete waste of time if you are an atheist, if you believe then its not....  (The not so smart plumber made a good call in becoming a plumber where as the other guy for all his smarts made a dumbass choice.....  No????  Ahh no one gets me on this site)

Being an atheist just means that you don't believe in any Gods, so of course you don't "need" or "have to" educate anyone about anything as some sort of atheistic requirement. 

There are other good reasons for doing things. Duh!

I am sure that there are, convincing people that you are not a bad person just because you don't believe in God, yeah fine I'll give you that...  Go volunteer in your local homeless shelter or something, but spreading your lack of a message around Christmas is for lack of a better phrase, a no no...  people will think that your nuts and they'd be right.

 

Anyway, its been fun.  I got a plane to catch.

 

 

 


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"I of course was referring

"I of course was referring to, educating them about being an Atheist...  I am sure that you knew this but perhaps I should clarify everything that I say for fear of having the punctuation police after me.  And No I don't see how dumb it sounds, were Atheists remember???  On the Belief's front we are a non entity, I won't get offended at your lack of a God, if you don't get offended at my lack of sense, so please lets try to keep the name calling to a bit of a more respectful manner."

All right. Now maybe you can show me how this site and its forum focus' all of its existence on teaching people what atheism is. Because I've only seen one topic on the subject. As it happens, a great many people have expressed thanks for that topic. But it is still one topic.

"How does convincing people that there is no God, benefit you?"

The number of ways are astronomical. But the biggest reason alone is sufficient: it increases our likelyhood of survival as a species.

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"I don't believe for one

"I don't believe for one second that campaign was ever about freedom from ~ "

I don't much care what you believe. If the persecution I receive in Canada was all I had to go on, I'd probably not be here. Most people in Canada don't preach on street corners. But let me introduce you to a specific American who represents more christians there than you obviously have a clue about: Fred Phelps. Here's another, slightly less hateful, but just as dangerous (if not more so due to being a religious pundit on a programme that calls itself news) and full of shit: Bill O'Reilly. Men like these say atheists are evil. They say evolution is a lie. They would see everyone who isn't a christian removed.

That's just two of easily thousands of reasons to put up a defence of atheism.

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"Give me an everyday

"Give me an everyday example, and please don't say the  pledge or the inauguration or hanging angels on christmas tree's this isn't oppression, its not even and inconvenience."

How about when I was about 6 years old and some woman yelled at me for not believing in a higher power? In public school?
I can compile a list of experiences from myself and others, but if you spent one hour looking through the forum you'd find them yourself.

"Some Atheists are whiney lil bitches."

Oh the irony...

"So that people don't misinterpret you as deviants, OK fair enough...  I still think that it doesn't really need to be said as its kind of common sense, but when I originally started this thread thats not what people were saying to me."

Obviously you are unaware that common sense is more rare than uranium.

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Niall, I think it comes down

Niall, I think it comes down to this:

 

Our issues seem trivial to you.  You seem to not care whether or not religion has a negative effect on society.

 

We think religion has a negative effect on society.  We see the problems, though trivial, as steps backward in social development, and have to decided to combat them. 

 

People here are frustrated that someone is questioning their motives when the person asking questions appears not to care about the motives in question, hence the claims of hypocrisy.  My question for you is, if you don't care about our atheist activism, why are you actively trying to tell us that this is the wrong thing to do?

 

I think this sums up our discussion, and I apologize if I got something wrong. 


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v4ultingbassist wrote:Niall,


v4ultingbassist wrote:

Niall, I think it comes down to this:

 

Our issues seem trivial to you.  You seem to not care whether or not religion has a negative effect on society.

 

We think know  religion has a negative effect on society.  We see the problems, though trivial, as steps backward in social development, and have to decided to combat them.  

 

People here are frustrated that someone is questioning their motives when the person asking questions appears not to care about the motives in question, hence the claims of hypocrisy.  My question for you is, if you don't care about our atheist activism, why are you actively trying to tell us that this is the wrong thing to do?

 

I think this sums up our discussion, and I apologize if I got something wrong. 

Corrected that for ya 

 


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That doesn't make sense. 

That doesn't make sense.  Did you mean to replace 'think' with 'know,' or 'know' with 'no?'  It makes a worldview of a difference.


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BobSpence1 wrote:A very

BobSpence1 wrote:

A very important aspect of an Atheist billboard, or other publicity, such as was gained by that televised debate, is to re-assure those people, especially the young, who are surrounded by religious people - parents and others - but have realised that there are serious problems with belief. It doesn't make sense to them, they see the logical flaws as we have, but they are afraid, intimidated, even worried that there is something wrong with themselves.

By making it public that there are others who don't believe, who see things the same way, we are reassuring them that they are are not crazy or evil because they cannot accept the religious nonsense that all around them do, and even may be trying to shove down their throat.

 

Yup, that's the point alright. And it works too.

If I never said thanks to all the regular posters for keeping this place alive, I'm doing it now.


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NiallStynes wrote:I still

NiallStynes wrote:
I still think that it doesn't really need to be said as its kind of common sense,

Yes, but most people are theists, and they hold a negative attitude towards atheism. That's exactly why it DOES it need to be said. 

NiallStynes wrote:
I was trying to say that studying the bible and reading up on religious doctrine is a complete waste of time if you are an atheist, if you believe then its not....  (The not so smart plumber made a good call in becoming a plumber where as the other guy for all his smarts made a dumbass choice.....  No????  Ahh no one gets me on this site)

You're really not intellectually honest with your analogies.

Brian and Kelly are debating about theism, but they are not theists. A much better analogy would be that the smarter guy is not a plumber, but the dumber guy is trying to convince him to be a plumber.

Quote:
I am sure that there are, convincing people that you are not a bad person just because you don't believe in God, yeah fine I'll give you that...  Go volunteer in your local homeless shelter or something, but spreading your lack of a message around Christmas is for lack of a better phrase, a no no...  people will think that your nuts and they'd be right.

I have done community service during the Christmas season in the past. I have never used Christmas as a prop to promote atheism. 

Also, why do you keep trying to pedal this bullshit that we're just spreading "a lack of a message?" You can't even reflect on your thoughts enough to notice that you're just repeatedly throwing semantic fallacies around? Holy crap.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Studying the Bible makes a

Studying the Bible makes a lot of sense for an Atheist, if only to re-assure yourself that there is not something there you might have missed.

Simply dismissing something without knowing anything about it at all would be profoundly dishonest. If we refused to read the Bible, that could be a fair criticism.

Reading it allows us to speak about it and explain why we don't believe it from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance. 

Studying the Bible and finding just how many wrong, immoral, and contradictory things it contains mis precisely what has justified many of us to abandon belief in it, and seek other sources of knowledge.

It is disturbing to have someone who says they are an atheist using all these poorly thought-out arguments that we usually get from Theists.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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v4ultingbassist wrote:My

v4ultingbassist wrote:
My question for you is, if you don't care about our atheist activism, why are you actively trying to tell us that this is the wrong thing to do?

Because he's a hypocrite.

He cares about something that he doesn't agree with. That's why he's debating these issues with us. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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NiallStynes wrote:This is

NiallStynes wrote:

This is pretty much bang on the money as we say... 

Okay then.

NiallStynes wrote:

When I'm at a rally in Ireland and we are fighting for some serious breach of civil rights and then when I hear of people in the States fighting for the right to have IN GOD WE TRUST changed, it makes me think to myself, "Jesus lads atleast pick something worth fighting for."

I don't believe they are choosing those things to fight for because atheists consider them important, but because the religious right considers them absolutely vital. Picking a fight about prayers in school or "in God we Trust" on the US dollar note are attempts to directly engage the extreme hyperbolic religious right which is the core issue, so it's a means to an end rather than the end in itself.

 

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butterbattle wrote: Because

butterbattle wrote:

Because he's a hypocrite.

He cares about something that he doesn't agree with. That's why he's debating these issues with us. 

Requiring a very, very loose definition of "debate".

 

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Feel the irony, Niall.

 

Niall, if talking about a lack of god is so pointless to you stop fucking talking about it.

Your obtuse little brain is giving me a headache.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Eloise wrote:NiallStynes

Eloise wrote:

NiallStynes wrote:

When I'm at a rally in Ireland and we are fighting for some serious breach of civil rights and then when I hear of people in the States fighting for the right to have IN GOD WE TRUST changed, it makes me think to myself, "Jesus lads atleast pick something worth fighting for."

I don't believe they are choosing those things to fight for because atheists consider them important, but because the religious right considers them absolutely vital. Picking a fight about prayers in school or "in God we Trust" on the US dollar note are attempts to directly engage the extreme hyperbolic religious right which is the core issue, so it's a means to an end rather than the end in itself.

 

[/quote

no no no no, he's right.  we should totally let it go until things get really fuckin' bad, then fight.  that way nobody else in the rest of the world gets envious because we didn't repeat their country's mistakes.

we should all vote national socialist too.  and stop growing wheat and corn to make room exclusively for cash crops like cotton.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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I'm guessing that I probably

I'm guessing that I probably won't get invited to the RRS Christmas party?

Right, just one last reply before I leave you all to burn in hell...

Vastet, I wouldn't take the lady that screamed at you too seriously.  When I was 6 one of my teachers gave me grief for not wanting to take piano lessons, not only do I not have any aversion to piano's today, but I am actually quite fond of them and not that I am any kind of fan of Bill O'Reilly, but he did have Richard Dawkins on his show and they did have quite a pleasant and friendly chat about atheism.

v4ultingbassist, its not that I don't care whether religion has a negative effect on society or not, whether its for king and country or God people will always find something to fight about, and if you are going to accept that it can have a negative effect on society then you have to accept it has positve effects on society too, for example a lot of religious societys made it to New Orleans before the US government sent any aid, perhaps in that instance it would have been better if the government took a leaf of out the book of Religious organisations.

butterbattle, if thats your experience fair enough... I have never had anyone give me any grief about being an atheist, as a matter of fact It very very rarely even comes up in conversation, and I come from a much more conservative country than you do, I am also not a hypocrite, just curious is all.

Bobspence1, I don't know why you or anyone on this site for that matter, originally came to the conclusion that there is no God, for me it was the knowledge that all religious doctrine cannot be the word of God as they have been written by someone supposedly speaking on Gods behalf, with this in mind it makes any biblical evidence toward the proof of God's existence or even non existence null and void because if they were not written by a divine entity but rather by some guy somewhere some when, then by all accounts they are fallable.  Even when you take nicea and mithras into account after the fact it still makes the whole concept of Christianity at best an unoriginal story, I can't speak for anyone else but after finding this out for myself I had no more interest in reading any part of the scripture because when you find out that a true story isn't actually a true story, it loses its appeal, which is probably why the Blair Witch Project 2 didn't do as good at the box office.

Personally speaking I have no aversion to religion but on occassion I do think that it can be a lively topic for discussion and what has surprised me about this forum, is that you lot seem to take it more personally than some true believers.  Thats just weird.

Regarding the Troll statements, I didn't even know what you meant by that the first time it was brought up, I'm afraid the answer is alot simpler, I'm just a non committed idiot with a lot of time on his hands.

Slan abhaile

Niall

 

 

 


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"Vastet, I wouldn't take the

"Vastet, I wouldn't take the lady that screamed at you too seriously.  When I was 6 one of my teachers gave me grief for not wanting to take piano lessons, not only do I not have any aversion to piano's today, but I am actually quite fond of them"

So you think it's ok for teachers to yell at students for disagreeing on a personal choice or belief, or lack thereof?
I'll add that this is minor compared to what would've happened in, say, Texas or Kansas, where I'd have been then stigmtized by my classmates for not believing in their sky daddy for the rest of my time in that school.

"and not that I am any kind of fan of Bill O'Reilly, but he did have Richard Dawkins on his show and they did have quite a pleasant and friendly chat about atheism."

Sure, if you call Bill yelling "friendly".

You're just proving your ignorance of North America. When I go to Ireland and tell you how to run your government and justice system properly, you can come here and tell me how to fight a deadly plague.

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NiallStynes wrote:

I'm guessing that I probably won't get invited to the RRS Christmas party?

Right, just one last reply before I leave you all to burn in hell...

Vastet, I wouldn't take the lady that screamed at you too seriously.  When I was 6 one of my teachers gave me grief for not wanting to take piano lessons, not only do I not have any aversion to piano's today, but I am actually quite fond of them and not that I am any kind of fan of Bill O'Reilly, but he did have Richard Dawkins on his show and they did have quite a pleasant and friendly chat about atheism.

v4ultingbassist, its not that I don't care whether religion has a negative effect on society or not, whether its for king and country or God people will always find something to fight about, and if you are going to accept that it can have a negative effect on society then you have to accept it has positve effects on society too, for example a lot of religious societys made it to New Orleans before the US government sent any aid, perhaps in that instance it would have been better if the government took a leaf of out the book of Religious organisations.

butterbattle, if thats your experience fair enough... I have never had anyone give me any grief about being an atheist, as a matter of fact It very very rarely even comes up in conversation, and I come from a much more conservative country than you do, I am also not a hypocrite, just curious is all.

Bobspence1, I don't know why you or anyone on this site for that matter, originally came to the conclusion that there is no God, for me it was the knowledge that all religious doctrine cannot be the word of God as they have been written by someone supposedly speaking on Gods behalf, with this in mind it makes any biblical evidence toward the proof of God's existence or even non existence null and void because if they were not written by a divine entity but rather by some guy somewhere some when, then by all accounts they are fallable.  Even when you take nicea and mithras into account after the fact it still makes the whole concept of Christianity at best an unoriginal story, I can't speak for anyone else but after finding this out for myself I had no more interest in reading any part of the scripture because when you find out that a true story isn't actually a true story, it loses its appeal, which is probably why the Blair Witch Project 2 didn't do as good at the box office.

Personally speaking I have no aversion to religion but on occassion I do think that it can be a lively topic for discussion and what has surprised me about this forum, is that you lot seem to take it more personally than some true believers.  Thats just weird.

Regarding the Troll statements, I didn't even know what you meant by that the first time it was brought up, I'm afraid the answer is alot simpler, I'm just a non committed idiot with a lot of time on his hands.

Slan abhaile

Niall 

 

refuses to listen to any of the myriad good reasons given to him for our position - but clings to his own view like snakevine. Then he blames us for starting it all with a swirl of victimhood on top.  All I can say is it's no wonder the irish got their bloody country back. I'm just surprised it took them so long to get it.

Not sure what part of the phrase "A place for atheist activists to unite" failed to get through to you, Niall.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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One more reply then I'll go,

One more reply then I'll go, I promise... 

Vastet, do I think its OK for teachers to go around yelling at kids?  Of course not, but I also don't think that your particular situation is any reflection on God, anymore than my situation was a reflection on piano's, it was a reflection on one persons ignorance.

As I already said, Bill O'Reilly is a total moron and you won't get me to say otherwise, but if you think that there was yelling involved in the interview in question, then it makes me think one of two things, A) you didn't see the particular interview in question and therefore can't comment, B) If you did see the interview and call that yelling then it makes me wonder about the above incident.

Regarding not having the right to discuss how North America is run???  Did I misunderstand?  Your not trying to claim that USA's foreign policy is anything to be proud of are you?  Your government wouldn't put an air base in Co Limerick for example and force a neutral country into what is now an illegal war, not to mention forcing us into abuses of civil rights by rendition protocols being transported via said air base in Co. Limerick.  Furthermore you can't cling onto freedom of speech when it suits you and then disband it when someone comes into your space and starts saying things that you disagree with.

AtheistExtremist cool name by the way, I am not refusing to listen and I just don't agree with what has been said, there is a difference.  Of course I cling to my own views, wouldn't you?  I wasn't playing the victim card, people said that I did not understand their point of view I talked about my background to correct them.  Too right we got our country back....  YOU'LL NEVER BEAT THE IRISH!!!  unless of course your France, and you cheat.  I didn't miss the atheist activist label, however in my experience activists regardless to their agenda love nothing more than a good aul heated natter, perhaps instead of scolding me you should be thanking me and saying, Cheers Niall I haven't had this much fun since I set the dog on them Mormons.

 


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:3

 Have some Pat Condell.

 

 


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"Vastet, do I think its OK

"Vastet, do I think its OK for teachers to go around yelling at kids?  Of course not, but I also don't think that your particular situation is any reflection on God, anymore than my situation was a reflection on piano's, it was a reflection on one persons ignorance."

You think wrong. I didn't say it was a direct reflection on an invisible friend, I said it was indicative of people who believe such things and their need to force their beliefs on others. I will fight them whether you whine about it or not. You are absolutely clueless about the war for reason going on here, and your opinions are irrelevant as a result.

"As I already said, Bill O'Reilly is a total moron and you won't get me to say otherwise, but if you think that there was yelling involved in the interview in question, then it makes me think one of two things, A) you didn't see the particular interview in question and therefore can't comment, B) If you did see the interview and call that yelling then it makes me wonder about the above incident"

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That makes me wonder what

That makes me wonder what your selective definition of yelling is, because Bill doesn't talk to people he disagrees with, he yells at them and cuts their mic. Anyone who watches him is a moron, by definition.

"Regarding not having the right to discuss how North America is run???  Did I misunderstand?"

Putting words in my mouth now are you? I said something about discussing how Ireland is run, but not North America.

"Your not trying to claim that USA's foreign policy is anything to be proud of are you?"

Why would I defend the US?

" Your government wouldn't put an air base in Co Limerick for example and force a neutral country into what is now an illegal war, not to mention forcing us into abuses of civil rights by rendition protocols being transported via said air base in Co. Limerick.  "

Actually, my government wouldn't.

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"Furthermore you can't cling

"Furthermore you can't cling onto freedom of speech when it suits you and then disband it when someone comes into your space and starts saying things that you disagree with."

Last I checked I haven't demanded you get kicked off the site. Anything else you want to make up and whine about?

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Cheers Niall

 

I haven't had this much fun since I had sex in on the alter of the presbyterian church in Clunes, far northern NSW, in 1986. 

Well. That's not strictly true. But it's been ok fun.

And you're right about French...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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NiallStynes wrote:but thats

NiallStynes wrote:

but thats not the case and particularly in the interview on ABC it was the lady (I didn't take down names) that said something very insensitive about going to hell rather than going to a racist meglomaniac blah blah blah.  Like I said I am also an Atheist (by the way this trolling bullshit is just pathetic, so you lot can debate theology all you want but when someone brings it to your doorstop your all up in arms about it?) however both my parents are very religious and they say a prayer everyday before having their dinner, I would never be crass and obnoxious enough to say anything like what the lady said in the interview to a religious person because it is very important to them and that was just plain simple rude.

You don't have to say things like that to your parents, and I don't suggest it if you think they'll find it offensive.  But it's a good thing for humanity that people exist who would say it.  Without language like that, we might overcome religion a little faster.

Quote:
If this is indeed about being in a minority then the problem is pretty much the same problem that America has struggled with since its founding, INTOLERANCE...  But from where I was sitting, the two believers were pretty polite and courteous to the RRS and it was the RRS whom were belligerent and intolerant.

Did you catch the part where he said in order to believe in god you only need to have a brain?  I found that more insulting than anything we said.

 


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NiallStynes wrote:With

NiallStynes wrote:

With regards to being uninvited, thats what a public forum is, are you seriously saying that your forum is not open to new members whom may have a contribution, if you look back at the thread the very first reply was someone saying that my thread was pretty good and that he enjoyed reading it, so why am I not welcome?

It was clarified for you already but I wanted you to know you're welcome to be here.

 

NiallStynes wrote:

Inability to read critically, if that was true then I would never have become an Atheist in the first place seeing as most people where I come from accept whats written in the bible blindly.

This thought doesn't follow.  I know quite a few atheists who are poor thinkers or do a poor job reading critically.  In fact dare I say by virtue of making the statement you illustrate the flaws in your thinking that were originally intended when the statement was lobbed your way.

 

NiallStynes wrote:

Do you really need to say you can be good without God?  You can be very religious and also a total prick, take Fred Phelps for example, but people already know this, when you help someone carry home their shopping or take out their garbage or do something else kind, you don't need to say "Ohh by the way, I'm an Atheist".

On my recent trip to Utah I gave a homeless man a leftover meal from an atheist gathering.  It was a full steak and a serving of vegetables.  It hadn't been touched, the meal looked great.  It made me feel great to give it to him, and he was thrilled even more.  I ran it to him while waiting at a red light.  I didn't mention anything about my atheism.  With that said, I created http://www.atheistvolunteers.org to show works that atheists do because of the fact that I've heard so many Christians argue that an atheist can do no good.  It's why there are two recent popular books titled "Goodness without God" and "Good without God."  We  hear it all the time in this country.  There is a misconception that atheists aren't as moral as Christians.  In summation, the answer is yes.  Yes we really need to say you can be good without God... we don't want to say it, but we need to.

 

NiallStynes wrote:
]Faith can be a good thing.

So can cocaine and heroin, but I've never done them and never will because I know they also have the propensity to be very dangerous and they're not necessary.

 

NiallStynes wrote:

One more reply then I'll go, I promise...

Why?  Because the argument is at a dead end?  You have nothing else worth discussing with us if you can't convince us to stop?