God's Children
Posted on: November 19, 2009 - 12:53am
Offline
God's Children
Just a quick thought I had earlier:
One of the phrases I hear thrown about by Christians is that we are "God's children" I also hear that he is "The Father." So, look at how civilized society would regard a "father" who forced his children to worship him under threat of eternal damnation and beat the living shit out of his kids to "test their faith" (among other atrocities).
- Login to post comments
The reason for this oddness is that god's love is 'perfect' yet the children he created are execrably evil. As a result of his perfect love, and despite his alleged omnipotence and stray moments of forgiveness, there are times when, verily, the lord sees fit to undertake the sort of vindictive punishment on the humans he 'loves' that in any other individual would be seen as a sign of profound insanity. But this is all because of us.
I hope this helps...
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Or, maybe, the free will argument. All of our suffering is due to our free will, so it's our fault, not God's (although, that doesn't really make sense with regard to disease, natural disasters, birth defects, etc.). It's "better" to suffer and have free will than to not suffer and not have free will. Ergo, suffering and free will! Of course, most informed atheists don't believe in free will anyways, so this isn't even meaningful.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I struggle with free will. I am unable to see how it is that god can say boomingly: "Make any choice you like my children - but if you don't side with me I'll killllllll you!" And call this free will.
Now if the bible was a treatise on rational thinking and no matter which way you chose you went to the same place, then that would be free will.
There's a word for the free will outlined in the christian doctrine. It's coercion.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
But what is free? Who is Will? Why should Will be free? Why do we also fire at Will?
Thanks for posting that one. Hilarious.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
To quote the British comedian Jimmy Carr; "If we're all God's children what was so special about Jesus?"
Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss
I don't habve anything meaningfull to add, but great thread!
(Edit: I guess I do. I remember having the god-is-a-jackass-because-he-dooms-his-children debate with a friend why used the free will argument against me. I was just a teenager so my response was more passion than logic. I wish I would have had the language I do today. "Free will is not free if your choice is made under duress."
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
My logic is in it's infancy but I'm sure god's argument of "Agree I exist and accept all I say or scream in torment forever" would constitute an appeal to force and this is not strictly a bad argument, given it's not an argument at all
but it could be considered a logical mantrap which snares an arguer into false reasoning to avoid hurt.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
It's worse. He doesn't even give us a choice to believe he exists, which would be a prerequisite for faith in him. lol.
Just because that moose loving heathen is locked in my garage for all our sakes doesn't mean he should be mentioned.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.