the loss of god

pm9347
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the loss of god

im concerned that the loss of god in our society is creating a world that will be an terrible place to live. Look at the news everday the worst type of human behavior is is shown , our society is falling apart. now its true our media is the worst at reporting the truth. They are more interested in selling papers , but looking at the issue god has been removed from the basics of the community, and now people have lost the fear of judgement by god . Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance , they feel they are free to do whatever they want , killing , divorce , rape , etc. how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ? is there a moral code ? does the law become the guidance ? i need some understanding.

 

pat


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butterbattle wrote:Quote:The

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
The fact is that you have no reason to doubt God's existence and plenty of reasons to believe.

Try this reason. No evidence. 

I never said you would like my evidence, in fact I posted directly that you would not, but the reasons you ignore it are not because it doesn't exist. In fact you should try actually pointing out why it should be rejected, if this was about reason and logic, just repeating over and over "no evidence" is tiring, not you particularly, you just wrote it once.

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tr1nity
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Oh yeah to that guy with the

Oh yeah to that guy with the guitar. If I offended you, I can only know that truth cause that's me and I've been shown enough to know that it is impossible that either you or I reach the standards of God for His standards are perfect, always, forever.

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Atheistextremist
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tr1nity we might love your evidence

tr1nity wrote:

 

I never said you would like my evidence, in fact I posted directly that you would not, but the reasons you ignore it are not because it doesn't exist. In fact you should try actually pointing out why it should be rejected, if this was about reason and logic, just repeating over and over "no evidence" is tiring, not you particularly, you just wrote it once.

 

We just haven't had any so far...Your personal convictions and revelations, meaningful to you though they obviously are, are not convincing arguments for the existence of god or the veracity of the bible. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


tr1nity
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Magus wrote:You see of

Magus wrote:

You see of morals are useful then we can derive them based on there effect on society.  No god needed.  I find it disturbing that you would kill, rape, ect... if your house of cards god fearing morality was pulled out from under you.  I think you should turn yourself into a mental institute.

 

You said "if morals are useful then we can derive them" What of it when their morals get in your way? Which morality will you derive? Which could you possibly agree on in any ordered social sense?

What makes what your trying to do right to you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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tr1nity
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Atheistextremist wrote:Your

Atheistextremist wrote:

Your personal convictions and revelations, meaningful to you though they obviously are, are not convincing arguments for the existence of god or the veracity of the bible.  

 

well put,

 

Now you should point to the specific area that I displayed personal convictions left without arguments(convincing or otherwise) and perhaps state why they are not convincing, or why the arguments offered are not arguments.

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Atheistextremist
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Let's begin by considering how the italicised portion

 

"Why should the inseperable nature of life and truth mean anything at all? Well it means something because my life is I and I matter to me, therefore it matters. Proof number umm, not really keeping count."

 

In the above quote from your earlier post proves the intimate connection between the nature of life and the 'truth'.

 

How are life and the truth connected because you matter to you?

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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So far from what I can see,

So far from what I can see, you haven't posted any evidence whatsoever that god exists, more specifically your god, actually what you have posted can be used to prove ANY god of any religion or mythology true. Basically it comes down to I really really really want god to exist.

At least come up with some evidence that is not just merely rhetoric. I mean you have really nothing to back it up, truth? what sense? what is truth? Just perception isn't it? After all for life to originate it needs what? Well god isn't part of the truth then, because well it's been shown that life can arise naturally without any god interference.

Shit you haven't even proved that morals come from god, you haven't proved anything other than stating you really can't imagine life without god, that you really want god to exist, because you can't fathom otherwise. Sorry, it's simply a fact, there is ZERO evidence that your god exists, and is in the same realm of fairies, gnomes, Zeus, Leprechauns, Shiva, FSM, IPU, Cupid, etc, etc, etc, (lump this with all the other mythological creatures and stories). So far, you got squat other than wishful thinking and rhetoric.....which isn't much evidence really.


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tr1nity wrote:Magus

tr1nity wrote:

Magus wrote:

You see of morals are useful then we can derive them based on there effect on society.  No god needed.  I find it disturbing that you would kill, rape, ect... if your house of cards god fearing morality was pulled out from under you.  I think you should turn yourself into a mental institute.

 

You said "if morals are useful then we can derive them" What of it when their morals get in your way? Which morality will you derive? Which could you possibly agree on in any ordered social sense?

What makes what your trying to do right to you?

 

The moral idea that produces a better system.  The best outcome to the situation is the most moral solution, based on the survivability and stability of the society.  I would derive my decision based on the evidence and act accordingly.  What morals do you think could "get in my way" that someone could not explain to the point that I see their position.

Sounds made up...
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tr1nity wrote:Oh yeah to

tr1nity wrote:

Oh yeah to that guy with the guitar. If I offended you,

I'm not offended by your judgement of me.  Jesus supposedly said, "Judge not lest ye be judged."  I find that to be an inferior philosophy, though.  I much prefer Ayn Rand's "Judge and be prepared to be judged."  I have more respect for those who judge than for those who obey Jesus' instruction on such matters.

You wrote, "In fact a true believer knows that you are wicked, reprobate and depraved."  True believers have, by definition, turned their back on reason in favour of faith.  I am unconcerned about what such people think of me, since I value reason and reject faith.  However, the way most people (including Christians) respond to me in real life strongly indicates that I am liked and trusted (I live in a small town, which means that I am not anonymous in my day to day living).  People don't generally like and trust those whom they consider to be "wicked, reprobate and depraved".

Still, thank you for having the courage to judge me, despite that silly saying attributed to Jesus.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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tr1nity wrote:Well I was

tr1nity wrote:

Well I was talking about the nature of life and the truths that absolutley MUST be acted upon in order for it to come into existence, grow strong and persist. The absence of these truths='s the absence of life. These truths are fundamental to the nature of well nature itself and stand as the ultimate guide within the context of actual reality that they, like us existed in.

If you ignore fundamental truth there is no life, if you surround recognized fundamental truth with untruth, you degrade nurture and persistance. The nature and interference of these social untruths pressed upon life will degrade these two points to the removal of it entirely, you can increase and decrease odds of perceived healthy persistence basically.

They could thank valhalla for giving them life, but if valhalla orders them to war all the time well this doesn't, due to persistent attrition, build the foundation of a persistent and healthy society, get that? Mass death caused by the persistent policies of a society do not promote its existence which is defined solely by its persistence. Existence is some level of persistence regardless of length.

Let me see if I’m getting what you are saying.  Are you saying that within any population of people there exists a population of truth and untruths, and that among these different ideas there is a process of selection threw which untruths are removed from the population by some method such as the death of the people who hold these untruths;  often do to there  infeasibility?    Are you saying that the long term existence of any truth is evidence of it being true by virtue of its fitness?    


tr1nity
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Magus wrote: The best

Magus wrote:

 The best outcome to the situation is the most moral solution, based on the survivability and stability of the society. 

Is it better to live life with hope of being reunited with loved ones lost through death or without this hope?

You see as I posted earlier, society can exist, but can they persist and in persistence can they create actual individual health? The factors going into a society, much like a recipe, must be measured carefully. To reject a priori one aspect of a social factor seems to me at the very least an unhealthy technique for culture building.

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"Is it better to live life

"Is it better to live life with hope of being reunited with loved ones lost through death or without this hope?"

That's a subjective question. I would rather not exist forever. Regardless of who I spent it with. I might very much enjoy living a lot longer than I will, but at some point it would get boring. Being unable to end would suck hard.

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Let me see...Live life for

Let me see...

Live life for as long as can knowing that I've helped my loved ones and others to the best of my abilities or live to screw them over figuring that I'll be able to pay them back in the afterlife of goodness and niceness that I have no proof exists (but my holy book tells me so)?

I've seen too much of the latter from those calling themselves Christians to not take the former. As I posted earlier, If you want to live a moral life - Read the Bible and do the opposite of what it says. That in itself will make you as moral as God. If you want to do better than that, look at what benefits you and others and strive for that.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Atheistextremist wrote: How

Atheistextremist wrote:

 How are life and the truth connected because you matter to you?

 

 

HAHAHA that's funny when I read that pulled out of context like that. Wow, that's fringe eh?

 

Well remember now this is a "truth" claim so you have to move beyond just me, I mean my feelings of self importance are actually, truly justified as are yours. In lifes absence there is nothing because things are simply the reflection of life, they manifest as what we call "real" at the point that our existence meets their apparent presence. Our existence is important because all things take on meaning through us. Without an us, you got nothing. Rocks, burning gas... there's hydrogen in there somewhere. It is all meaningless without our presence. So I matter to me because without me I don't have alot of options, so it is for all of us. From our perspective which is the only observable phenomena of the existence of perspective, I would say being the foundation of this insanely powerful universal force we should at the very least consider that it is meaningful, it's important. The universe cannot measure importance, alot of things are going on out there to be sure but we alone assign IT meaning. We give it a presence because we, and only we see it.

 

This is one empirically observable truth. Within the boundries of this observable reality, we matter. We both have an effect and create the effects very reality, we use it to hold ourselves up as we walk, shine in the dark, burn it for warmth. It serves us. It is not inconceivable that with enough effort, we could manipulate all of it to serve us in a myriad of different ways, some imagineable and some yet to be known. We are important, in fact we are ALL important because importance itself is assigned by us alone and exists only as a reflection pressed against our existent selves.

 

That would be my argument for why we should consider ourselves as something to place on a priority scale of some kind, if for no other reason than we alone are "priority" incarnate.

 

Now I never said that life and truth are connected because I'm important to me. Life and truth are connected because we alone define it and exactly one spirit passing through the minds of men is the spirit that will allow for this "most powerful force in the universe" thing we "evidently" are to come into being and further to continue. This truth is wrapped within the fiber of our existence. Without it, there is nothing. Pretty important if your on the "something" team which like it or not, you are.

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butterbattle
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butterbattle wrote:What is

butterbattle wrote:
What is "truth?" Why can't life exist if there is no "truth?"

tr1nity wrote:
umm, certain procedures must be followed to conceive and raise a child.

"Truth" is whatever is necessary to keep a baby alive?

Quote:
The absence of following these procedures makes life absent.

Babies die if you don't keep them alive?

Quote:
Is this not true?

Sure, if you don't take care of a baby, it'll die. I don't see how this is relevant. You said:

"As it stands I leave it at this, life cannot exist at all if no truth existed."

From analyzing your ill-defined, ridiculously ambiguous language, what you seem to be saying is that life cannot exist if it doesn't survive to reproduce. Alright, why didn't you just say that?

Quote:
Further certain "spiritual" feelings MUST be acted on in specific ways to conceive and nurture a child.

You mean we use our instincts and what we have learned about children during our lifetime?

Quote:
It is complex, true, but it does exist. The nature of nature makes the truth true or existent. It's existence "persists" even now.

Life is complex, and it exists?

Quote:
Our indiidual persistent existence defines

Defines?

Quote:
or reflects

Reflects?

Quote:
the nature of the truth

Nature of the truth?

Quote:
that made us so.

We're what nature made us to be? 

So, this proves....what?

Quote:
I never said you would like my evidence,

I didn't say I didn't like your evidence. I said you didn't have evidence. Where did you post it? Here?

"He exists because He must."

This is a naked assertion. Or, here?

"Like I said it is self evident truth."

This is another naked assertion, and it's an intellectual cop-out.  

Quote:
In fact you should try actually pointing out why it should be rejected,

I don't see any evidence. Tell me what I'm responding to, and I'll tell you why I don't accept it.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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NoDeity wrote: People don't

NoDeity wrote:

 People don't generally like and trust those whom they consider to be "wicked, reprobate and depraved".

 

Measuring oneself solely against others considerations leaves you at the whim of their motives for considering.

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tr1nity
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RatDog wrote:    Are you

RatDog wrote:

    Are you saying that the long term existence of any truth is evidence of it being true by virtue of its fitness?    

 

Correct. But length is secondary, health is primary. Being enslaved at length may be persistence, but does it have value to the individual? The individual is the measure not merely social continuation. WE are important because we each are.

Truth at its most fundamental is the basic needs for cohesion to manifest continuation, but with ourselves in the mix, we must include that also.

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tr1nity
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healthy persistence

certainly healthy persistence is the ultimate goal.

 


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butterbattle wrote: Tell me

butterbattle wrote:

 

Tell me what I'm responding to, and I'll tell you why I don't accept it.

 

How the heck am I supposed to tell you what to respond to? Your the one choosing that. Sheesh I have to make you actually read my posts before responding or else I'm wrong?

 

You need to try harder, or not.... you choose.

 

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tr1nity wrote:Now you should

tr1nity wrote:

Now you should point to the specific area that I displayed personal convictions left without arguments(convincing or otherwise) and perhaps state why they are not convincing, or why the arguments offered are not arguments.

You make lists and lists of baseless, evidence-free claims. Only verifiable evidence is convincing in these matters. Your rhetoric about truth and nurturing life is devoid of any supporting evidence. Why would you imagine that it could convince us of anything? Your purely rhetorical arguments will not count for anything unless they are based upon verifiable evidence.

And no: life, procreation and nurturing relationships are not evidence of this Truth and spirituality that you believe in. They exist independently of your vague and evidence free rhetoric.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Jormungander wrote:Only

Jormungander wrote:

Only verifiable evidence is convincing in these matters.

I wonder what you could possibly mean by "verifiable". What I've written is what is, unless you have a particular post where you believe I wrote something that isn't, I can't see that your assertion here has any justification.

 

 

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tr1nity
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Magus wrote:  What morals

Magus wrote:

  What morals do you think could "get in my way" that someone could not explain to the point that I see their position.

 

Well when their position involves you being arrested, I imagine derived morality could conflict, unless you like being locked up, then as I was, no conflict. Carry on.

 

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tr1nity wrote:certainly

tr1nity wrote:

certainly healthy persistence is the ultimate goal.

Would you accept as truth any believe which aided people in achieving long term healthy existence?


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tr1nity wrote:NoDeity

tr1nity wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

 People don't generally like and trust those whom they consider to be "wicked, reprobate and depraved".

 

Measuring oneself solely against others considerations leaves you at the whim of their motives for considering.

LOL!  You're not really paying attention, are you. 

When I offer my own assessment of my character, you dismiss it because, apparenly, I can't be trusted to evaluate myself.  So, in response, I support my own assessment with observations about the way other people respond to me and you dismiss that, too.  I get it, though: no matter what I say and no matter what kind of evidence I might eventually be able to offer, you're going to reject it because it doesn't fit into your religious ideology.  In other words, I don't believe that you are interested in having an honest conversation.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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The loss of God

Tell me this, how can you lose something you never had in the first place?

Who gave christians the copyright on morals?

This is truly an argument based on ignorant superstition.

One of the most freeing moments of my own life, came at the age of 18 or so, when I finally let go of the fear of being persecuted by a vengeful God.

That was many years ago now, and if anything, it strengthened my moral view on many issues including attitudes to fellow humans. Why? because I was now responsible 100% for my own life and the decisions I made, not some fictitious deity.

As humans, at least the thinking type, we all have to live the rest of our lives with the choices we make. Is this not judgment enough. I believe that subscribing to the rules of some God, which are in essence only a transference of control by humans, cleverly disguised as Gods word, often leads to self righteousness. We have the choice not God.

For the lack of God's sake think for yourself! and question! and you will be free.



 

Take nothing for granted


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tr1nity wrote:Is it better

tr1nity wrote:
Is it better to live life with hope of being reunited with loved ones lost through death or without this hope?

According to the values I hold, it's better live honestly and, to the best of one's ability, to live in reality.  Your question boils down to this: is it better to live in false hope or to face reality?

I've lost loved ones.  I've seen death.  I can deal with the fact that there are no good reasons to think that it is in any way possible for me to see those individuals again, except in memories and photographs and such.  I can accept that, move on, and live a good life.  If I can do it, others can do it, too.  

I have no respect for the notion that religion at least offers hope.  It offers false hope and I find that despicable.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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I was somewhat interested in

I was somewhat interested in this thread until  tr1nity used the term "fact" in regards to gods existence. I cannot grasp the ignorance or sheer dismissal of logic and rationality that would lead one to assert that it is a "fact" that god exists. It just comes across as one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Blah.


Renee Obsidianwords
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 Where did our original

 Where did our original poster go?

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


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tr1nity wrote:How the heck

tr1nity wrote:
How the heck am I supposed to tell you what to respond to?

Lol, how about like this:

"I proved that my worldview was correct in post #(xxx)."

tr1nity wrote:
Your the one choosing that.

Yes, but you keep saying that your worldview is 'self-evident' and 'proven.' I want to read where you showed that this was the case. Uuuhh, where is it?

Quote:
Sheesh I have to make you actually read my posts before responding or else I'm wrong?

No. I have to read your argument before I can respond to it.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Thread of doom

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

 Where did our original poster go?

 

Maybe Pat was actually Matt Shizzle and he's sitting back giggling about just how much of our lives we're wasting with this particular thread.

We're not even in the same ballpark as Tr1n and any facts we can serve up to him will never compete with the gushing balm of his serotonin system.

And don't worry about justifying yourself, guitar dude. I think you have the coolest hair on the site - and your arguments make sense, too.

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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pm9347 wrote:im concerned

pm9347 wrote:

im concerned that the loss of god in our society is creating a world that will be an terrible place to live. Look at the news everday the worst type of human behavior is is shown , our society is falling apart. now its true our media is the worst at reporting the truth. They are more interested in selling papers , but looking at the issue god has been removed from the basics of the community, and now people have lost the fear of judgement by god . Since they have no one to fear and fear causes guidance , they feel they are free to do whatever they want , killing , divorce , rape , etc. how do athiest maitain a moral system without guidance ? is there a moral code ? does the law become the guidance ? i need some understanding

pat

Firstly, our society is not falling apart. There are fewer  violent crimes per capita in the United States today than ever in history. Your perception is indeed caused by the media. The media simply can report more violent crimes than ever before, because they've gotten much better at finding out where and when news is happening, and will get cameras and reporters on the scene very quickly -- and of course, violent crime makes for great television.

Secondly, god has not been "removed from the basics of community," at least in the United States. There are still plenty of religious people, and still plenty of communities centered around religion.

Thirdly, even if this were true, it would not be a problem. Here's why: do you follow every rule and law in the Bible? For instance, do you stone adulterers and burn homosexuals? Do you kill a woman for wearing mixed-fiber clothing? Do you stone people for working on Sundays? Do you avoid pork? Shellfish?

This idea is further extensible to the fact that there are many hundreds of religions, all with different moral rules. How do you decide which set of rules to follow without being completely arbitrary?

There are plenty of rules in the Bible which people do not follow. People pick and choose which ones to follow. How do we pick and choose which ones to follow? Surely, if the Bible were the ultimate arbiter of morality, then we should expect all people to follow its every word to the letter. Instead, people follow what rules they think are reasonable, and don't follow others. This implies that a sense of ethics external to the Bible, but not external to reason, must exist.

We can ask two questions: why does this external sense of morality exist? and, why should we follow it?

The first question may very well be answered by kin selection and group selection from biology. The second question has many sufficient answers in ethical philosophy.

 

 


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Morals and religion

 

A recent study - it came out a day or so ago - highlights the perceived most moral societies in the world. New Zealand and Australia, both of which are highly secular, came first and fourth on the list.

Other lovely people included singapore and sweden, nations that are little concerned with god. Yes - I know it's perception-based but that should appeal to the theists who are running on sweeping generalisations anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


tr1nity
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NoDeity wrote:It offers

NoDeity wrote:

It offers false hope and I find that despicable.

From what standard do you derive the "despicability" of offering false hope? 

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NoDeity wrote:When I offer

NoDeity wrote:

When I offer my own assessment of my character, you dismiss it because, apparenly, I can't be trusted to evaluate myself.  So, in response, I support my own assessment with observations about the way other people respond to me and you dismiss that, too. 

Well you apparently understand an assertion and the concept of assertion justification, I'll give you that. Good typing.

If you want to fly and you try by running real fast into a wall it will hurt you, if you then climb on top of the wall and belly flop the ground in your efforts to reach for the sky, that will hurt you also.

Don't get mad that the wall keeps hurting you...buy a plane ticket.

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tr1nity
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RatDog wrote:Would you

RatDog wrote:

Would you accept as truth any believe which aided people in achieving long term healthy existence?

 

I never accept beliefs as truths.

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butterbattle wrote: No. I

butterbattle wrote:

 

No. I have to read your argument before I can respond to it.

 

Right, now we're getting somewhere.

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tr1nity wrote:RatDog

tr1nity wrote:

RatDog wrote:

Would you accept as truth any believe which aided people in achieving long term healthy existence?

 

I never accept beliefs as truths.

When did your belief in Christianity become truth? That is, when did your faith become knowledge?

If you know Christianity is the truth and god is real, have you abandoned faith in those concepts?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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tr1nity wrote:butterbattle

tr1nity wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

 

No. I have to read your argument before I can respond to it.

 

Right, now we're getting somewhere.

We started to, but then you just clicked 'post' instead of providing one.

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tr1nity wrote:NoDeity

tr1nity wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

It offers false hope and I find that despicable.

From what standard do you derive the "despicability" of offering false hope? 

I judge false hope to be despicable because I value truth.

Do you defend the offering of false hope?  If so, on what basis do you do so?

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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tr1nity wrote:NoDeity

tr1nity wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

When I offer my own assessment of my character, you dismiss it because, apparenly, I can't be trusted to evaluate myself.  So, in response, I support my own assessment with observations about the way other people respond to me and you dismiss that, too. 

Well you apparently understand an assertion and the concept of assertion justification, I'll give you that. Good typing.

If you want to fly and you try by running real fast into a wall it will hurt you, if you then climb on top of the wall and belly flop the ground in your efforts to reach for the sky, that will hurt you also.

Don't get mad that the wall keeps hurting you...buy a plane ticket.

The only meaning I'm gleaning from your analogy is that I should stop trying to justify myself to someone who seems to be quite unlikely to accept any such justification that I might offer.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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NoDeity wrote:tr1nity

NoDeity wrote:

tr1nity wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

When I offer my own assessment of my character, you dismiss it because, apparenly, I can't be trusted to evaluate myself.  So, in response, I support my own assessment with observations about the way other people respond to me and you dismiss that, too. 

Well you apparently understand an assertion and the concept of assertion justification, I'll give you that. Good typing.

If you want to fly and you try by running real fast into a wall it will hurt you, if you then climb on top of the wall and belly flop the ground in your efforts to reach for the sky, that will hurt you also.

Don't get mad that the wall keeps hurting you...buy a plane ticket.

The only meaning I'm gleaning from your analogy is that I should stop trying to justify myself to someone who seems to be quite unlikely to accept any such justification that I might offer.

 

Lol...

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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tr1nity wrote:Magus wrote: 

tr1nity wrote:

Magus wrote:

  What morals do you think could "get in my way" that someone could not explain to the point that I see their position.

 

Well when their position involves you being arrested, I imagine derived morality could conflict, unless you like being locked up, then as I was, no conflict. Carry on.

 

What thing could I derive though from survivability and stability would lead to me being in a position of being arrested.

Sounds made up...
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Magus wrote:What thing could

Magus wrote:

What thing could I derive though from survivability and stability would lead to me being in a position of being arrested.

Well shoot I don't know, don't you think  that it is remotely possible that "someone" will change the rules of the game "somewhere" ,as we are talking a society made up of more people than just you, that may interfere with your perceived derivitive whether its right or wrong?

"But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external or internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government that is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."

 

qoute THE FEDERALIST PAPERS

 

Now why would that be a reflection on human nature that government must control itself? The answer is simple, human nature left to its own device will use power and influence to manipulate the circumstance to their personal benefit. The "A" morality of nature is further perverted by psychosis of every imagineable type. People without a standard from which to measure outside their own immediate interests would be left with anarchy....followed closely by tyranny and further slavery if not outright and total destruction.

 

This is the very "self evident" truth that built this country in the first place, the recognition of the fallen nature of man and the need for a civil society as the most fundamental to a healthy individual. Of course the entire effort driven by the simple fact that we are here and now. Now what?

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NoDeity wrote:I judge false

NoDeity wrote:

I judge false hope to be despicable because I value truth.

Do you defend the offering of false hope?  If so, on what basis do you do so?

 

Well I would hate to diminish the stories I've heard about a platoon outnumbered and under assault, cut off from their fire base hoping that help was on the way and left for hours and hours in this state with nothing but this hope to drive them. After its said and done, and through some circumstance of the war, the remains of the platoon escape their trap and make their way back to security. Help was not on the way, but it carried them through the fight.

 

Do not worship something as a final thing above all others without proper consideration. Don't be the person that knows pork is bad for him, and dies of starvation with a porkchop on a plate in front of him. The pork chop would stand in a mockery of his misplaced faith would you not agree?

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jcgadfly wrote:If you know

jcgadfly wrote:

If you know Christianity is the truth and god is real, have you abandoned faith in those concepts?

 

Yes I have no faith in those concepts. Christianity is true because it is and God is real because He is.

 

Faith in the truth itself is that which carried me home only known by me because He spoke my name...and I heard.

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The sheer arrogance

The sheer arrogance astounds. Especially without proof. I call myself a god and even I am stunned at your ego.

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Tr1n, you are fully entitled to

tr1nity wrote:

 

Yes I have no faith in those concepts. Christianity is true because it is and God is real because He is.

Faith in the truth itself is that which carried me home only known by me because He spoke my name...and I heard.

 

hold these opinions but you should call them what they are.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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tr1nity wrote:NoDeity

tr1nity wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

I judge false hope to be despicable because I value truth.

Do you defend the offering of false hope?  If so, on what basis do you do so?

 

Well I would hate to diminish the stories I've heard about a platoon outnumbered and under assault, cut off from their fire base hoping that help was on the way and left for hours and hours in this state with nothing but this hope to drive them. After its said and done, and through some circumstance of the war, the remains of the platoon escape their trap and make their way back to security. Help was not on the way, but it carried them through the fight.

If I understand correctly, you see the hope of Heaven (and, perhaps, the threat of Hell) as analogous to the story of the soldiers who found the courage to persevere because they thought help was on the way.  If that's what you're driving at, can you explain more fully how the false hope of Heaven is beneficial?

 

tr1nity wrote:
Do not worship something as a final thing above all others without proper consideration. Don't be the person that knows pork is bad for him, and dies of starvation with a porkchop on a plate in front of him. The pork chop would stand in a mockery of his misplaced faith would you not agree?

I can see the pork chop.  I can smell it.  I can poke it with my finger judge its doneness and temperature.  If I'm starving and I know it, I'm sure as hell going to eat the pork chop.  I don't see that the pork chop is in any way analogous to the hope of Heaven.  If that's not the analogy you had in mind, then I've completely missed your point and I'd appreciate it if you'd state your meaning in straightforward English.  (I don't like being expected to play a guessing game when I haven't offered to play it -- I think it's rude.)

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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tr1nity wrote:jcgadfly

tr1nity wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

If you know Christianity is the truth and god is real, have you abandoned faith in those concepts?

 

Yes I have no faith in those concepts. Christianity is true because it is and God is real because He is.

 

Faith in the truth itself is that which carried me home only known by me because He spoke my name...and I heard.

Great now provide the evidence that they are true. Otherwise, any god of any religion that claims to be the true god or gods has the same weight as your claims, just because you close your eyes and mind and keep repeating it's true its true, doesn't make it true. Your like a little child with those claims. It's true because I want it to be true, and because I can't think of any way that it's can't be true, but I have no evidence it's true other than me saying it's true.

whooopee deeedooo.


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latincanuck wrote:tr1nity

latincanuck wrote:

tr1nity wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

If you know Christianity is the truth and god is real, have you abandoned faith in those concepts?

 

Yes I have no faith in those concepts. Christianity is true because it is and God is real because He is.

 

Faith in the truth itself is that which carried me home only known by me because He spoke my name...and I heard.

Great now provide the evidence that they are true. Otherwise, any god of any religion that claims to be the true god or gods has the same weight as your claims, just because you close your eyes and mind and keep repeating it's true its true, doesn't make it true. Your like a little child with those claims. It's true because I want it to be true, and because I can't think of any way that it's can't be true, but I have no evidence it's true other than me saying it's true.

whooopee deeedooo.

Did you see the shift?

He doesn't have faith in God - he has faith in the "truth only known by him".

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin