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A more important question.
Posted on: November 13, 2009 - 9:59pm
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A more important question.
Instead of "Do you believe in gods?", how about "Do you believe in souls?" because if there is a god or gods but souls don't exist, then its kinda pointless to believe in gods if there is no afterlife to possibly meet them. Right? Idiots are Fun! No wonder every village wants one.-House
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Are you fluent in Hebrew? Not from what I've seen in your discussion with FurryCatherder. So what basis do you make your assumption?
When were there these supposed millions of Hebrew people? Please substantiate with a census?
According to William G Dever in his books the population at various points in the time periods for Palestine:
13th century BCE - about 12,000 (period right before the supposed Hebrews invaded)
early 12th century BCE about 55,000 (Includes period of the alleged Judges)
Late 11th century BCE about 75,000 (supposed time of David)
In the 10 and 9th centuries BCE Israel's population may have been about 500,000 while Judah was about 24,000
After Israel is defeated by Assyria Judah increased to perhaps 120,000 in the 8th century BCE.
Where are these millions you claim?
Israel in the north demonstrated far more cultural similarities to other Canaanite cultures than did Judah in the south.
There are not millions of Jews until well after the Persian period and into the Roman period.
An opinion by you that has no supporting evidence.
So what are you saying, women all have the minds of 6 year olds? Or are you saying women have simple minds and require control and direction?
You avoided the major point in this stripped quote from me-
I said "If your God so cared for his chosen people he would have at least put some decency and values of freedom in their hearts along with the other tripe you claim he has inserted. Since his people did in fact sell even their own children it indicates that your God has an epic fail when it comes to even basic values and morals. If freedom and respect of individuals is not considered to be one of the most important morals and or values then your God is evil incarnate. The owning of one human by another can not be defended."
And you that have been spouting off how the god puts morals and ethics in the heart of man don't want to address why he didn't put a basic value of OWNING OTHER HUMANS IS WRONG AND EVIL INCARNATE. Obvious conclusion, your god is thereby evil incarnate as he allowed this to take place.
My point is simple, allowing people to own people is no better than ripping out hearts as the Aztecs did. It's no better than burning your baby on an altar to a god.
No, I need no god to tell me that buying & selling humans is evil, you may, that's because you take your values from an archaic book written in ancient times by somewhat less than knowledgeable people.
You can pray to your god for a set of wings. If he gives them to you he can also make you like a stealth bomber and invisible to radar.
What are you whining about in regards to Corporate America? You don't make enough to buy a new HD TV or an I-Phone? Physical property and such are only tools you can use why you are alive. Far as I know taking them with you into your grave only provides future archaeologists and treasure hunters new fortunes, at least that's what has happened with the Egyptians and other ancient civilizations that thought they could take it with them.
Your savior teaches to give all away and follow him. Have you? Do you own anything? If so, don't whine about corporate America taking from you, as you should have given it all away per your savior's instructions
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
pauljohn,
“Are you fluent in Hebrew?”
I didn’t claim to know which translation is best, that was you.
“When were there these supposed millions of Hebrew people? Please substantiate with a census?”
We can argue about census numbers until the cows come home, my point is that these things were written in the law because they has very real and very practical relevance. However, for your pleasure, the Bible records multiple census counts all of which totaling at least 600,000. These were only men from a specific age range. If we assume every man was counted and that the women didn’t number as many, we arrive at a very conservative number of an even 1,000,000.
Over just one century, it is incredibly reasonable to believe that in 100 years, the law had governed over 5,000,000 people. This is a conservative estimate and I would not be surprised if that number was actually three times larger.
“So what are you saying, women all have the minds of 6 year olds? Or are you saying women have simple minds and require control and direction?”
That is not what I said and to draw that implication is sheer ignorance. It was an analogy.
You then proceed to climb up the throne of God, sit on his lap and ramble on about God being evil ignoring the fact that He determines what evil is and you shaking your tiny little fist in his face matters not… Thank God that he is a loving God. If God was not loving I couldn’t imagine how bad off we would be. God defines good, not you, period.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
That is what the Jews seem to claim, that the JPS, Jewish Publication Society of America version is the best in English. Source - Wiki and Jewish Publication Society of America.
I suggest you read a few books on ancient history and archeology where you will find that there is not support for millions of Hebrew nomads wandering around in the land of Canaan or in later Israel and Judah when the supposed laws were written. You should also be quite skeptical about counting the people living in the Northern Kingdom of Israel as Yahweh believers as there is insufficient support for that position except of course from the source of your beliefs, the Bible.
Using your Bible to justify your Bible is also completely unacceptable.
Your analogy was extremely poor and in bad taste. Your other positions that women should be directed and controlled by their husbands that are superior as they are the head, suggested that perhaps that you were a sexist and so the poor way you expressed this analogy can lead one to think you thought so little of women. Sorry for misunderstanding your position and considering you a sexist .
In your fantasies and imagination.
Put your God on the lab table.
Waiting.
Does you god speak to you? Do you hear him aloud or only in your mind? Or do you hear his messages in the archaic words of the ancients that you interpret to your own means?
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
pauljohn,
“I suggest you read a few books on ancient history."
The Bible is the only one we know of that is infallible; it’s the one I use. Any statement that is not in harmony with the Bible is so obviously in error it’s funny.
“Using your Bible to justify your Bible is also completely unacceptable.”
Yes it is.
If the Bible wasn’t 66 separate books then you might have a point. The Bible is collection of books that are self attesting. I would challenge you to take some of your own medicine; you need it more than we do. Using reason and logic to justify reason and logic is completely unacceptable.
“Does you god speak to you? Do you hear him aloud or only in your mind? Or do you hear his messages in the archaic words of the ancients that you interpret to your own means?”
You question is loaded… Yes God speaks to me. The idea of a message or any information being communicated should not be limited. Whether you read or hear something and however you hear it is irrelevant, the part that matters is this: was a message communicated?
Saying that I hear God speak verbally would only provoke further abuse justified by your personal and shallow version of morality. God speaks to His people through the Bible, and we are lucky that he is that gracious. None of us deserve anything from God except his righteous judgment and Hell for eternity. Thanks be to God that he saw fit to be merciful instead.
May God bless you with understanding.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
Then there is no way to justify logic, because the only way to justify anything is through reason and logic.
My Website About Roller Coaster Design
So you use something that you can't justify to say that my beliefs aren't justified, good one.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
You can't justify it either, genius.
No system of thought can be verified from within. That certainly includes religious ideas of reality, and especially the Bible, which cannot be used to justify itself.
The only approach which has can be taken is assume the absolute minimum, using the apparent nature of the perceptible Universe as a starting point, which gives good justification for the identity relationships which are the foundation of logic, and work up from there. All we can establish is that some approaches seem to consistent with our experiences of our shared reality better than others, so we adjust our basic assumptions as necessary to go with the more useful models of reality.
Nothing is ever 'proved', just established with higher or lower confidence. Some things can be virtually disproved, as being inconsistent with basic ideas such as logic.
Other ideas arise in our mind, but until and unless they can be supported independently, we have no warrant to assign them as actually corresponding with reality, such as the idea of Gods.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
eX - just clarify this for me in relation to the infallible bible. What you're saying is the 66 books chosen and pilfered by a group of early christian church men who did not agree with each other are completely without error? Have not one contradiction, not a single myth or mythical figure? Are perfect in form and function? And any competing text is so wrong it's not funny?
Once you've answered 'yes' as I'm sure you will do - could you throw some light on which version is the most infallible one given the little differences so many versions have?
Most my christian friends don't believe everything in the bible is meant to be taken literally - the ark, the message in the rainbow, the red sea, the garden of eden. The gadarine
swine. But you do, don't you? I hope god appreciates all the sacrifices of sense you're making for him.
Just to quote you eX: "Saying I hear god speak to me would only provoke further abuse justified by your personal and shallow version of morality."
This is another of your sad little adhoms isn't it? It's not a great argument from the mighty christian warrior.
But don't worry eX soon all the nasty children be burned in the fire and you can sit on god's lap sucking your thumb for all eternity while he runs his hands through your hair.
May god bless you with an independent stream of thought generated by your own brain.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
And the Muslims say if it is not in the Qu'ran then it is of no use.
We can go through many places where the Bible is clearly wrong on history but since you consider it infallible it's like telling a blind person what a blue sky looks like. There is no point in any further discussion.
A collection of Sci-Fi & Fantasy books is still Sci-Fi & Fantasy no matter how you try to paint it.
I'll stick with reason and logic and leave y'all to your world of never was and never will be.
Absolutely my question was loaded. My mother worked at state hospitals for nearly all of her life specializing first in schizophrenia and later on in drug treatment. She was an extremely religious person who originally was a Lutheran School teacher. However, hearing God speak to you is a psychiatric disorder which if she were here today she'd tell you so. Most of the major denominations also consider it so. The Catholic Church which I was a member of for about 20 years does not teach that God communicates verbally with man today. If you think you are hearing him either mentally or verbally I'd suggest you get help ASAP from a reputable psychiatrist. If you were just being tricksy with your wording then no problem.
You really don't know me to make a statement that I have a shallow version of morality. Just like you I care about what people believe. Just like you when I see someone wasting their life in a way that is harmful I try to help them. Your drug of choice is fervent belief in questionable religious doctrine. Your denial of reality in your statement that only the Bible is infallible indicating that observed reality should not be considered over the words written by unknown ignorant at times writers of 2000 to 3000 years ago suggests a serious problem. Actually sir, you came here to confront atheists with the good news of Jesus died for you and me etc. Perhaps you had an ulterior unconscious motive where you were searching for the real world. Should I take the red pill or the blue pill (Matrix). When you come here and open a discussion then you open yourself and your belief to dissection and examination on the lab table. When you go out and preach the good news of Jesus saves and you get into discussions you do exactly the same thing that we do here. You try to show the person the errors of their ways, thinking or how God so loves them. Here we try to show you that you are mistaken, following illogical beliefs, and are wasting your life and time on a fantasy. But no harm sir, you can continue as you are and in the end you'll find out, or not.
Either you will find yourself in the heavenly cloud place you think is there from your beliefs Or:
you will find yourself in Muslim Hell along with me and all the other infidels Or:
you will be reincarnated as a cow Or:
you will find out this was just a computer simulation Or:
you will find out nothing and recycle your atoms back into the star stuff you are made of.
I vote for the star stuff at this point.
Y'all take care and may somehow you take reason and logic seriously someday.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
@Atheistextremist
“…66 books chosen and pilfered by a group of early christian church men…”
I don’t flippantly believe whatever people say. Please prove that all 66 books were chosen by one group of men and verifiably pilfered by a group of early Christians you seem to know of.
@pauljohntheskeptic
“And the Muslims say if it is not in the Qu'ran then it is of no use.”
And after an internal critique of the book the absurdity is obvious.
I never said that I hear God speak to me verbally.
Can you define reason and logic for me?
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
After your statement in your previous post:
I concluded there is no point in trying to have any kind of rational discussion with you at all. If observed reality contradicts what is in your Bible which archeology as well as many other disciplines clearly do and you refuse to even consider any other possibility because "the Bible is infallible" it is a needless exercise of battering my head against the wall.
**Bangs Head Again**
Thank you so much for your relentless preaching of the word. It so reminded me of the many reasons I consider religious proselytizers equal to drug addicts. Your mind has been so altered that you cannot perceive the real world any more so than can an addict. Fantasy and delusion from archaic sources have become equal to observed reality if not superior to it in your view in light of how you consider the Bible to be infalliable.
Enjoy what life you have because tomorrow you will return to the star stuff you are made from.
Again, Y'all take care now I hope you can find a way to see the real world that is out here.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Well eX, early churchmen did put the bible together, choosing the books that best suited their purposes. Obviously the canonisation of the bible was a process but it's not as if the bible appeared suddenly, fully formed. Nor are all bibles the same. The Jewish Bible includes the 39 books of the old testament. The protestant bible has the 39 hebrew books and 27 books written in greek called the NT - there's your 66. But the Catholic bible has another 15 books on top of the protestant version and the prods must have scrapped those 15 after Luther had his dummy spit because the catholic chuch is the original church so its bible takes historical precedence. Syrian christians have far fewer books in their bible than everyone else while ethiopian christians have many more. What i want to know is which of these books is the more infallible??
The pilfered part relates to the Old Testament which was lifted wholesale from the jews, a mob the romans had spent a fair bit of time kicking the shit out of. Strange really, isn't it, eX, the roman fixation with the jews. Maybe it was all those hot brunette women with wild hair they have going over there.
In any case Jewish history is mostly irrelevant to me. My personal history is highland scots and it really pisses me off that there is virtually nothing known about the culture of my people yet I have to hear all this stolen history like it somehow matters to my spiritual development. My river and tree gods are way better than your meccano frankenstein god (Sorry FurryCat - it's not about you).
Finally, who's voice does god use when he speaks to you non verbally? Is it the voice of your conscience eX? Is it just a feeling that acting one way is better than the other? A compulsion? Writing it out like that I wonder whether you actually have free will at all. Being compelled to do the right thing isn't much of a choice. You are just a robot.
May god bless you with an independent stream of thought generated by your own brain.
Edit: Wit
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
@Atheistextremist
“Well eX, early churchmen did put the bible together, choosing the books that best suited their purposes.”
This is an unsubstantiated claim and the burden of proof is on you. Prove that they chose them to suit their purposes and feel free to even enlighten us as to what that purpose was.
“But the Catholic bible has another 15 books on top of the protestant version and the prods must have scrapped those 15 after Luther had his dummy spit…”
You’ve revealed your ignorance of the reformation and the Roman Catholic Church with this statement. I don’t expect you to care too much about church history, but if you expect to be taken seriously or impact my understanding you need to at least represent things accurately.
For your benefit the RCC did not officially canonize the Apocrypha until after they were disputing with the reformers. The Bible as Protestants know it today had long since been canonized (for more than 1,000 years at this point). The RCC with their anti-reformation bias and agenda chose to add to the established canon so that they could appeal to select verses within the Apocryphal books to establish false doctrines like penitence and purgatory, for obvious financial reasons.
“What i want to know is which of these books is the more infallible??”
I take it you mean which canon, not which book. The Bible (as mentioned) is not a book; it’s a collection of books. So which canon is the most reliable? That is a question that has been debated for hundreds of years between the churches. A popular question is: ‘Since we know that the table of contents page of our Bible isn’t inspired, then how do we know which one is right?’
From what I understand, Christians agree across the board on the Old Testament canon so I presume your question pertains to the New Testament books. I want to challenge you. Rather than just giving you the answer, I want to test your commitment to the topic. If you really care to know and you aren’t merely wasting our time, follow this link and listen to a lecture by Professor Wayne Grudem:
http://tapecenter.scottsdalebible.com/sermons/091105SysTheo.MP3
Most atheists care about nothing other than trying to trip up a Christian. If you are interesting in understanding what we believe and why, listen to the lecture. If not, do not expect me to pay you much respect. To be fair, after you listen to it, I am open to listening to anything you have to offer regarding your belief, but only after.
“The pilfered part relates to the Old Testament which was lifted wholesale from the jews…”
You fail to acknowledge the fact that the earliest Christians were predominantly Jewish… Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews and fulfilled Old Testament prophecy, how in the world would it make sense for us to not accept it. Jesus fulfilled the OT, and He quoted it over 200 times, we would be fools not to ‘lift it.’
You have yet to show evidence of any pilfering as well.
“it really pisses me off that there is virtually nothing known about the culture of my people”
On a note of empathy, I also have a hard time tracking down my heritage… I wish I knew more about where I came from as well!
“Finally, who's voice does god use when he speaks to you non verbally?”
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness… - 2 Timothy 3:16
He uses His own voice. All Scripture is breathed out by God, the very words of God Himself.
“Writing it out like that I wonder whether you actually have free will at all.”
There is no such thing as free will. We are volitional creatures, but our choices are in slavery.
The Bible teaches that your will is either in bondage to righteousness or in bondage to sin, but it’s in bondage either way. When the Bible says that we have been bought with a price, it means that. We have been purchased and we have a new master, Jesus Christ. We serve Him.
Even if you march under the banner of atheism, you are merely a sack of biological matter that is a slave to the laws of physics. The popular atheist Dan Barker admits hat free will is at most an illusion. Encouraging huh? That’s what atheism offers, an illusion, go figure.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
Discounting the alleged wrongness of my shooting from the hip earlier which I'll go look up now, you agree then that early churchmen (the RCC you implicate) did manipulate the text to their advantage?
You can't really be serious that you don't believe the bible evolved from a group of writings that through a process of 'gravity of relevance' were condensed by actual human beings into the bible/s we know today? That is what happened whether you refuse to accept it because I can't give you an exact timeline or not. The burden of proof is on you to show that the finger of god or something projected out of heaven and delivered the bible in some supernatural way to the early church. If it did not, then the bible was accrued over time in the normal way.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Not more homework?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
That to hijack judaism, claiming the various wild prophecies it contains have been fulfilled (not challenging to do when there's a list of its prophecies there on the desk in front of you as you contrive the new testament) is a form of pilfering. Especially when christianity then merrily decrees the jews are all now deluded are off to hell, separated from god or whatever it is. I've read fascinatingly horrible arguments that contend that the persecution of the jews over the past 100 years is a direct fulfilment of the prophecy concerning the fall of jerusalem because the jews failed to acknowledge jesus.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I'm don't think you answered my question in relation to the voice god uses when speaking to you but I won't press the point much. He uses his own voice? What voice - whatever voice serves to get the message to you - interpretations of events and feelings inside you?
I don't get it with free will. I agree there is no such thing but I would argue this from point of view of instinct, natural hormonal urges, subconscious behaviours resulting from genetic predisposition or environmental damage/influence. Humans obviously have the capacity to make conscious moral choices but conscious morality is an overlay as all consciousness is an overlay. We are definitely unconsciously moral/immoral as well.
In bondage to righteousness, in bondage to evil, serving a new master, bought with a price, marching under a banner - this all sounds like a more than usually annoying tolkien novel to me. Acutally I'm just trying to pay off a mortgage and to balance the usual catalogue of worries the average human labours under. I don't want to be part of a fantasy world with monsters and dragons and saviours and a far off glittering shore.
Your position on lack of free will is interesting. Does this mean god doesn't want us to love him of our own free will after all?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Ok - so I'm about halfway through this and I'm prepared to contest a number of points contained here. For a start the RCC are following the teaching of the Apoc pre-Luther even if it's only when they are refuting him that they chose to canonise this stuff.
Additionally, people are making the decision to include particular books in the canon as being the word of god. Why? Because the form and messag conform to the existing doctrine.
The business of waiting 435 years for a new prophet and the people hearing there finally was one and god was again speaking to them and all jerusalem went out to the creek of jordan to see it is a joke. These prophecies are not recorded by the jews. Why?
It's hard to listen to such a biased and one sided lecture in the hope of being taken seriously when the material under discussion and the conclusions beiong drawn throughout the sermon are in direct contravention of what a serious minded person would believe. You have to be a christian to swallow this. You have to believe that jesus is god that the holy spirit is an actual thing.
I don't know eX. I don't think this sermon seriously impacts on my position that the books of the bible were compiled by men for their own purposes - whether I have the exact genealogy of the business down pat or not.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
We're deep into bat country now.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
@Atheistextremist
"The burden of proof is on you to show that the finger of god or something projected out of heaven and delivered the bible in some supernatural way to the early church. If it did not, then the bible was accrued over time in the normal way."
Prophecy.
"christianity then merrily decrees the jews are all now deluded are off to hell"
I have a good friend, far more intelligent then myself who is a Jewish Christian. He blows my mind when he talks about Jesus... Apparently from a Jewish background, the gospel makes even more sense.
"separated from god or whatever it is"
Hell is God's wrath, He will certainly be present.
“I've read fascinatingly horrible arguments that contend that the persecution of the jews over the past 100 years is a direct fulfilment of the prophecy concerning the fall of jerusalem because the jews failed to acknowledge jesus.”
I’ve heard that from exactly one person. One very ignorant person… I trust you do not share in his lunacy.
“He uses his own voice?”
The Bible is the very words of God… The verse I quoted states that all Scripture is ‘theopneustos’ which means God-breathed, breathed out by God Himself. If you place your hand in front of your mouth and speak you feel breathe. The Bible is breathed out by God in the same way. He drew a straight line (the Bible) with a very crooked stick (fallible men) – it’s quite a miracle that the Bible comports so well to reality and is consistent over so many authors and years.
“Your position on lack of free will is interesting. Does this mean god doesn't want us to love him of our own free will after all?”
This is a really good question by the way. God very much wants us to love him, but we both agree that our will is not ‘free.’ The dilemma for man and the whole reason for Jesus coming was to free men from themselves. When we are born we are already darkened by sin, this is precisely why you do not need to teach a child to lie, cheat, or steal toys… they already come programmed for evil because of sin. Without God changing your heart you cannot and will not ever love him by your own choice. We resist God at all times if we are not a Christian. It’s only when God chooses to overcome our resistance and save us that we become born again believers of God. God gives us a new heart as the Bible says and the old heart of stone is thrown out. Once we have this new heart our desires change from hating God to loving God, ‘just like that.’ So to sum it up, we do make choices, but until God grants you faith your choices will never cease to be selfish and against what God wants. Your choices are either a slave to evil or to righteousness, please pray for that change tonight my friend.
That is certainly the way the Bible teaches it, and that’s exactly what happened with the believers I know. I went from trying to convince a person that God was not good and God was not real to being an ardent follower of Jesus in a very short time, it was indeed a miracle.
I pray that it will happen to you.
PS: Thank you for listening to the lecture, I hope you finish it! It was not to persuade you of anything but I wanted to give you something so that you would at least understand what we believe on the subject... That professor is one of the leading theologians of our time, and quite young relatively speaking.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
So our atheism is a result of God not overcoming our resistance?
My Website About Roller Coaster Design
I think that an more plausible scenario, if the Bible truly is inspired by God, is that the scriptures are designed to weed out the stupid and irrational, by feeding them a bunch of implausible and contradictory stories and insisting that only those who can swallow all that will get to live forever in heaven.
What will happen is that people like us who have shown we value demonstrable truth over such obvious nonsense, and aren't going to fall for Pascal's Wager, are the ones who will actually get some ultimate reward.
Just sayin'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Well if that is the case, we'll just have to thank him for the entertainment.
My Website About Roller Coaster Design
Love to hear an expansion of this theory - nice idea. I'm sure than actual non believers are in the minority. Most people believe that some god or other created the universe - it's like 90 per cent or something. Fact is, theism or agnosticism is the easiest default to embrace. God knows - as an ex-theist, trying to get my head around this stuff is much harder that bathing is the warmth of the blood of the lamb and leaving all the tough questions to 'Him'.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
@v4ultingbassist
"So our atheism is a result of God not overcoming our resistance?"
According to the Bible, there is no such thing as an actual atheist. The Bible teaches that all men are aware of the existence of God and that the fact that you exist rather than not is sufficient evidence to know this. The reason you claim to be an atheist stems from self-deception. As a non-Christian, your mind is darkened by your sin and you cannot understand the things of God, according to the Bible. That is why I have low standards for non-believers. It’s not that they are stupid, in fact most are plenty intelligent, it’s just that when it comes to the things of God they become willingly narrow-minded and this is all do to their hardness of heart, or sin.
The reason that God must overcome our resistance as He did with Paul on the road to Damascus is that we are born in rebellion to God and come into the world as sinners. If he does not choose to overcome that resistance then justice is served when we die and we end up getting what every person deserves which is eternity in Hell for morally trespassing upon a holy and eternal God.
The atheism is a result of our own sin, it is through the mercy and grace of God that anyone gets saved.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
Well I waited long enough for a response. I guess you don't have one. Victory is mine, again.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
If you are talking to me…
I let our conversation die because we were not getting anywhere. You failed to answer the last question I asked and resorted to equivocation...
"The laws of physics. One cannot talk if one has no vocal chords. Snakes don't have vocal chords. And even if they did, they don't have the brain to use them. Snakes never spoke."
I wanted to know what specific law of logic or physics a talking snake violates.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
You would require an understanding of biology and evolution to understand why a talking snake violates the laws of physics, amongst other things. Because it doesn't just violate one law, it violates ALL of them. It violates scientific understanding of reality from sound to light to basic matter and back. From medicine to particle theory to geology to biology. It violates existence itself to suggest there was a talking snake.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
But see, my problem is this. I WAS a Christian. I believed for nearly 18 years of my life. And guess what? Nothing. No emotions, no thoughts, on experiences that there actually is a god. Now here I am, someone who has decided not to waste any more time on an idiotic religion. Not once did I experience god. Not once did I experience the holy spirit. Not once, even after all the times I ate little pieces of him, did I experience jesus.
And it's my fault that I don't believe?
No. It is your pathetic and apathetic god who is at fault. If it is so obvious, why is this site even in existence? You need to ask yourself something: If so many people see what I believe as erroneous, shouldn't I at least doubt a little?
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@Vastet
"Because it doesn't just violate one law, it violates ALL of them. It violates scientific understanding of reality from sound to light to basic matter and back. From medicine to particle theory to geology to biology. “
… Yet you fail to name a single one. Please name just one of the many and explain how a talking snake violates it.
“It violates existence itself to suggest there was a talking snake."
This makes no sense.
@v4ultingbassist
“I WAS a Christian. I believed for nearly 18 years of my life.”
However sad it may be, you were not ever a Christian my friend. There is no such thing as a former Christian, only a person who was once emotionally attached to something they never understood. You likely have a similar emotional motive for being a non-believer.
“Not once did I experience god. Not once did I experience the holy spirit. Not once, even after all the times I ate little pieces of him, did I experience jesus.”
That’s because you never actually knew God…
“And it's my fault that I don't believe?”
Yes sir, most definitely.
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. “ – 1 John 2:19
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
I already pointed out that a snake has never had a method with which to speak. Without such a method, the explanation for which requires ALL of the observed laws, from which such explanations are derived. All you're doing is saying a snake talked. How did a snake talk without vocal chords, a brain with the necessary structure to use them, and without even a rudimentary capacity for language? And what exactly was it doing to move before god told it to slither around forever?
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
So you can't name one, good.
Your also presupposing the validity of evolution which begs the question against the Bible...
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
I've said at least twice that it violates them ALL. That is EVERY ONE of them. What part of this simple English is eluding you?
Also, you're presupposing both the invalidation of proven evolution AND the validation of the bible, which has been proven wrong.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
If it's so obvious just give one and summarize why it's been violated.
The second option is to drop if and stop making a fool of yourself.
As of yet, my talking snake is reigning supreme.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
a gigantic and deeply insulting ad-hom perpetrated by the church. You can't question or you are blinded, you can't question or you are evil, you can't question or you are narrow minded, you can't question or you mind is darkened, you can't question or you have hardened your heart. Not for the first time, eX, you've managed to get the needles on my Why Don't You Go And Fuck Yourself Meter twitching wildly.
If anyone is deceitful, narrow-minded, blinded, and possessed of a darkness of mind on this forum buddy, it's you.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Not so... Christians are encourage to ask questions and test everything, what you should do is replace the word choice of 'question' with 'reject the Christian Gospel.' That would be a more accurate representation of what the Bible teaches and what I have said to you.
I highly suspect that a person who is such a fundamentalist atheist that he choses a name tied to hate crimes and terror to make a statement of how serious he takes his atheist religion is beyond the asking of question and more along the lines of an anti-Christian.
The Gospel message is not what most people teach on TV, it's supposed to be offensive to some degree. I meant you no personal harm however.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
At what point in the honest questioning process is a christian required to hurry up and accept the doctrine on pain of eternal immolation? Your point in relation to my name, with the deliberate attachment of the words 'hate crimes' and 'terror' is just another
adhom. My position is best described as very bloody annoyed. The fact you and other fundy christians are able to rationalise things like hell makes me question your personal morality. If anything guarantees my rejection of your beliefs it's subjugation of my
doubts by means of threat. Perhaps one-eyed christians like you don't deserve incineration for all eternity but at the very least you should be made to sit in a corner facing the wall while the rest of us eat eat chocolate cake.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
"If it's so obvious just give one and summarize why it's been violated."
I already gave you all of them. The onus is on you to prove otherwise.
"The second option is to drop if and stop making a fool of yourself."
Read that to a mirror.
"As of yet, my talking snake is reigning supreme."
Only in your mind.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Snakes lack the FOX2P gene without which speech is impossible. Example of magic snakes existing outside the realms of fairy tales like Harry Potter are eagerly awaited...
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I'm willing to bet my mental capacity is superior to yours. Therefore, if I don't 'understand' the religion you follow in your eyes, it is because I know something about it that you don't: It is MORONIC.
If you are Catholic, you are a cannibal.
If you think Mary gave birth to a human, but was a virgin, your very knowledge of what the word virgin means is wrong.
If you think your religion is monotheistic, then only one of the three are actually god, not all of them.
There's plenty more to this list. And this list is why I have no problem asserting my elitism.
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It's sad and ironic that you actually believe yourself to be privy to some superior gnostic wisdom.
I'm not a Catholic.
Atheist Christopher Hitches admits that virgin births are possible.
And I would challenge you to find a definition given by a person who believes the doctrine of the Trinity that agrees with your false assertion.
All you are doing is projecting ignorance and proving over and over than you have no concern of actually understanding what Christians believe.
This forum is nothing more than your new church family. You seem to be just as relgious as you ever claimed to be.
And in regards to your intellectual hubris:
"Pride goes before destruction..." - Proverbs 16:18
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
This tends to happens when someone thinks that they are right.
Except that I know what they believe. I WAS one. I was an educated one, too. And guess what? You mean to tell me that every christian can argue the philosophical arguments behind the existence of god? You'd be extremely naive to think that. I spent a few years exploring these arguments, and found them to be insufficient to support the importance that religion asserts on one's life.
I'm sorry, I got a little excited. In case you didn't know, you need human sperm to make a new human. This means that the holy spirit had to artificially inseminate mary... with sperm. I've read the bible, and the holy spirit has never been described as sperm...
And this line of thinking means you would consider any sort of political, ethical, or philosophical position to be religious. Religion, by definition, requires beliefi n some higher power. I don't have that. Therefore I am not religious, regardless of your opinion.
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Please note that the offspring of a human virgin birth would necessarily be FEMALE, because they would only have two X chromosomes.
Care to demonstrate your ignorance yet again? Really not necessarily, you have so thoroughly made it obvious by now....
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
You have decided that the bible is the infallible word of God.
The Old testament contains more than one historical account of racial cleansing by the Israelites (I would assume you believe these events actually happened as depicted in the infallible book).
So if the Israelites are the exception to man's immoral rule because they are ruled by God - how is it you can call Nazi Germany an example of immorality by man's rule?
"Soul" sort of hints at something that does exist, but I've come to prefer the concept of "aliveness." We're on the threshold of understanding much more about what it really is (or isn't), when artificial intelligence becomes self-aware, sometime possibly in this century. The difference, though, is that living carbon-based creatures have a certain awareness of their own physical, bodily existence and on some level, the mortality of it which they try desperately to preserve. Artificial intelligence exists in a kind of disembodied realm of pure information. The question of what happens when the physical embodiment ceases to function may never become an issue. It does for us and for most other creatures that are "alive" and bound to one unique physical body.
Regardless of what I personally believe, conceptually I'm not convinced that to think a consciousness (or however you want to describe our singular self-awareness) set loose from its physical body requires anything like god or heaven, etc..
I suppose I'm starting to sound a bit like Luminon now, but so be it.
I don't know if you sound like Luminon, but whats really amazing is: You are on Topic!!
I don't see that belief in a soul is necessary to belief in a God or vice versa. However, it really wouldn't serve much higher purpose to believe in a God and not a soul. To hold such a belief, one would have to hold to a very liberal creator, or be doomed to a very dismal perspective of life.
More comforting to believe in something soul-like, without an omnipotent being in control of it.
"Soul" determines to a certain degree if and how is someone alive and conscious. The soul is not identic with physiologic life, emotionality and intelligence. However, the soul influence makes all these parts be under conscious control, in highly integrated and co-operating state. The soul does not create person of daily life, it creates various degrees of geniality.
But if mind is not confined to physical body, then there can be worlds full of phenomena, that produce the feelings, visions, communications and so on - that served as a historical basis for God and metaphysics.
There is no such thing as dead matter. All matter vibrates at some rate. But if we see the world as living, interconnected system, conscious in a certain sense, then people that want may call it God.
Sorry for erratic text, I'm in hurry right now.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Unless you object to it, I have decided to challenge you to a one-on-one debate on "spirituality".
Your call next. (There is a forum called one-on-one debate...)
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
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