I know I can't say for sure that "there are no deities" but can we deduce which ones we know don't exist?

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I know I can't say for sure that "there are no deities" but can we deduce which ones we know don't exist?

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Every deity I've ever heard

Every deity I've ever heard referenced is impossible. If one or many do exist, their names and desires are unknown to humanity.

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"I'm more sure that Yahweh

"I'm more sure that Yahweh doesn't exist than I am that I do exist." - Sapient

 

I'm fairly certain about all the other gods I've heard of (as Vastet) has noted, however I'm as positive as I could be in regards to Yahweh due to the greater amount of research I've done on him.

 

 

 

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Occam's Razor does away with

Occam's Razor does away with all gods for which there is no good evidence, which is all of them that I've ever heard of. Except those gods which are mere redefinitions, such as 'god is love', in which case, Why not just call it love? We have a perfectly good word for it already. What do the letters g-o-d get you?

So, in either case, the god either 'probably doesn't exist because of lack of evidence' or 'is a redundant word we don't need, and so we might as well ditch it anyway.'

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This is one of the things

This is one of the things you have to love about theists(not) There are, I believe, about 5,000 'gods' out there from various stages of history. Theists will have no problem saying thor,zeus, aztec sun gods, african tribal gods, or allah(if they are xtian) are fake made up stories, but their god is undoubtfully the one true god. What are the chances..

 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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 Typically, any deity with

 Typically, any deity with an "omni" quality can be disqualified for logical reasons.  That's one of the easiest ways to disprove specific deities.  Also, for obvious reasons, any deity whose description includes internal contradiction cannot exist as described.  

Part of the problem with disproving specific deities, however, is that you need an established worldview from which to operate, and most theists will not agree to that worldview, so you're pretty much preaching to the choir.

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I think we could say that

I think we could say that they all exist equally, and that is to say, not at all. Not a single one is more plausible than another. That's just my tired opinion on the matter.


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*facepalm*

Sapient wrote:

"I'm more sure that Yahweh doesn't exist than I am that I do exist." - Sapient

I'm more sure that Yahwah does exist than I am that I do... Apparently we disagree. The poster didn't even include Yahweh in his list; I think your response demonstrates the reliability of the Bible when it tells us of how unbelievers are enemies of God. You attacked Yahweh and He wasn't even mentioned my friend, I wonder just how much you hate your Creator.


Loc wrote:

This is one of the things you have to love about theists(not) There are, I believe, about 5,000 'gods' out there from various stages of history. Theists will have no problem saying thor,zeus, aztec sun gods, african tribal gods, or allah(if they are xtian) are fake made up stories, but their god is undoubtfully the one true god. What are the chances..

Well Loc, you have misunderstood your terms bud. You seem to be using the word theist almost synonomously with Christian... anyone who believes in a god is a theist.

Also, the Hindu faith has at least 300,000,000 gods, and the men of the Mormon church all hope to become gods one day themselves, so that about 10,000,000 more.

I think you need a few more zeros behind your estimation.

The one true God, namely the triune God of the Bible is a unique God as well, He is the true God.


Hambydammit wrote:

"... disqualified for logical reasons.  That's one of the easiest ways to disprove specific deities..."

This is a funny comment seeing as how you're atheistic perspective of existence can't possibly account for the abstract laws of logic. Your use of logic is not logical.
 

Grace and peace,

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"I'm more sure that Yahwah

"I'm more sure that Yahwah does exist than I am that I do."

So you're clinically insane. Good to know.

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Vastet wrote:"I'm more sure

Vastet wrote:
"I'm more sure that Yahwah does exist than I am that I do." So you're clinically insane. Good to know.

No, I'm just really fucking certain that Yahweh doesn't exist.   

 

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eXnihilO wrote:Sapient

eXnihilO wrote:

Sapient wrote:

"I'm more sure that Yahweh doesn't exist than I am that I do exist." - Sapient

I'm more sure that Yahwah does exist than I am that I do... Apparently we disagree. The poster didn't even include Yahweh in his list; I think your response demonstrates the reliability of the Bible when it tells us of how unbelievers are enemies of God. You attacked Yahweh and He wasn't even mentioned my friend, I wonder just how much you hate your Creator.

It doesn't matter that Yahweh wasn't mentioned, he asked what gods we can eliminate with certainty, and I've eliminated Yahweh with certainty.  If I'm wrong, he should strike me dead right now.  

Still here.

 

Good luck with your imaginary friend and the interesting manner in which you avoid dealing with my certainty.

 

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Sapient wrote:Vastet

Sapient wrote:

Vastet wrote:
"I'm more sure that Yahwah does exist than I am that I do." So you're clinically insane. Good to know.

No, I'm just really fucking certain that Yahweh doesn't exist.   

 

That wasn't posted to your comment, it was posted to his. It is entirely reasonable to be certain of oneself. It is insane to be more sure of a god or gods than oneself.

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 Yeah I hadn't gotten to

 Yeah I hadn't gotten to his statement yet, thanks for clarifying.  I've had that statement of mine challenged before by people stating I must be certain I exist, and while I am... I suppose I could be a pawn in a video game or something.  Maybe I'm simply a cell inside a super being, our universe is merely one of it's organs.  

Yahweh, certainly doesn't exist.  

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Sapient wrote:

...It doesn't matter that Yahweh wasn't mentioned, he asked what gods we can eliminate with certainty, and I've eliminated Yahweh with certainty...

I flat out reject your statement. You're conscience bears witness to His existence and you are without excuse in acknowledging His hand in creation. You make a good show now, but it will be a strange sight to see you bow the knee to Jesus one day. Unfortunately for you my friend the supernatural Creator of this universe doesn't need your permission to be Lord. I lack a belief in atheists, only I have proof that they don't exist in Romans chapter one.

Seems odd that he left out Yahweh since He is so certainly eliminated, no?

Sapient wrote:

Good luck with ... the interesting manner in which you avoid dealing with my certainty.

Truth has a ring to it doesn't it?

You walk a fine line of being materially 'certain' of eliminating an immaterial God and being naturally 'certain' of eliminating a supernatural God.

I would say good luck with that, but I'll pray for you instead Sapient.

Grace and peace,

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eXnihilO wrote:This is a

eXnihilO wrote:
This is a funny comment seeing as how you're atheistic perspective of existence can't possibly account for the abstract laws of logic.

The "laws" of logic are merely abstractions of what we either deduce or observe to be true. I'm not sure what "account" for them means. Why can't we "account" for them?

eXnihilO wrote:
I flat out reject your statement. You're conscience bears witness to His existence and you are without excuse in acknowledging His hand in creation.

What does "you're conscience bears witness to His existence" mean? Is that a cheeky way of saying that it's truth from the gut? Sorry dude, but strong feelings are not good evidence for anything, except for your own feelings and convictions. Reality is often counterintuitive.

eXnihilO wrote:
You make a good show now, but it will be a strange sight to see you bow the knee to Jesus one day.

Yeah, when he's threatening us with eternal torture, right?

eXnihilO wrote:
I lack a belief in atheists, only I have proof that they don't exist in Romans chapter one.

Oh noes!

Yep, you've caught us. I admit it.

We actually know without a doubt that God exists, but we like torturing puppies and having sexual orgies with five year olds, so we're rebelling against Him and worshipping Satan instead. Oh, BTW, we're also all liberal communists, homosexuals, and we enjoy slaughtering babies via abortion. We believe in the religion of evolution because it teaches us that it's okay to commit genocide against inferior races, like asians, hispanics, blacks, Jews, etc. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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eXnihilO wrote:I flat out

eXnihilO wrote:

I flat out reject your statement.

Cute.

 

Quote:
You're conscience bears witness to His existence

Not any more than any other god.

 

Quote:
and you are without excuse in acknowledging His hand in creation.

I have no reason to believe a god had anything to do with creating existence.  There exists no scientific proof of such a thing, and in fact based on research from the Miller-Urey experiments and other findings from abiogenesis, I believe that acknowledging a god had a hand in creation would make me look ignorant, in the way that most of us are viewing you.

Quote:
You make a good show now, but it will be a strange sight to see you bow the knee to Jesus one day.

That will be strange considering there is no Jesus.

 

Quote:
Unfortunately for you my friend the supernatural Creator of this universe doesn't need your permission to be Lord.

And Papa Smurf doesn't need my permission to visit Gargamel.  The invisible pink unicorns on my roof don't need my permission to remain invisible.  God is in good company with other make pretend entities.

 

Quote:
I lack a belief in atheists, only I have proof that they don't exist in Romans chapter one.

You're an idiot.

 

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...

 

*ahem* Strawman ad infinitum

 

butterbattle wrote:

The "laws" of logic are merely abstractions of what we either deduce or observe to be true. I'm not sure what "account" for them means. Why can't we "account" for them?

Try this… you just said that the laws of logic are simply abstractions of what we deduce or observe to be true.

I have a hard time accepting your usage of the word true as you admitted not really holding to much of that kind of stuff. Either way I’m sure your definition of truth here deals somehow with things that are reasoned logically, and whatever else you decide to use to justify truth…

My point is this: you’ve all but said laws of logic are merely what we deduce in a logical way! Oh boy, a perfect circle. The way a Christian explains logic is actually cogent, unlike this conjecture… logic is based on the unchanging and all-knowing nature of God, we are made in His image, therefore we are sharing to some degree in this attribute.

If logic is to be trusted at all, which I can’t say you would accept (nailing your foot to the ground in the process) then you must admit that my God exists to justify it or hold to an unfounded theory of knowledge, again with the foot nailing.

Hence, the expression ‘accounted for.’

butterbattle wrote:

What does "you're conscience bears witness to His existence" mean? Is that a cheeky way of saying that it's truth from the gut? Sorry dude, but strong feelings are not good evidence for anything, except for your own feelings and convictions. Reality is often counterintuitive.

This is just another one of those pesky objective truths of the universe. The second chapter of Romans will help you understand, specifically verse 15.

butterbattle wrote:

Yeah, when he's threatening us with eternal torture, right?

To be honest it’s more of a promise than a threat and it’s actually a promise you can rely on right here and right now.

 

I’m not convinced that the bowing to Christ on judgment day will be a voluntary action by sinners. In fact, I highly doubt it.

 

Regards,

Speaking Truth in love,

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eXnihilO wrote:Try

eXnihilO wrote:
Try this… you just said that the laws of logic are simply abstractions of what we deduce or observe to be true.

I have a hard time accepting your usage of the word true as you admitted not really holding to much of that kind of stuff.

Either way I’m sure your definition of truth here deals somehow with things that are reasoned logically, and whatever else you decide to use to justify truth…

My point is this: you’ve all but said laws of logic are merely what we deduce in a logical way! Oh boy, a perfect circle. The way a Christian explains logic is actually cogent, unlike this conjecture… logic is based on the unchanging and all-knowing nature of God, we are made in His image, therefore we are sharing to some degree in this attribute.

If logic is to be trusted at all, which I can’t say you would accept (nailing your foot to the ground in the process) then you must admit that my God exists to justify it or hold to an unfounded theory of knowledge, again with the foot nailing.

Hence, the expression ‘accounted for.’

Ah, well, it's similar to what I already said in the other thread.

We can't "prove" that logic works in the way you define these terms. 

It just seems to work. That's it. Fin.

eXnihilO wrote:
This is just another one of those pesky objective truths of the universe. The second chapter of Romans will help you understand, specifically verse 15.

I have my Bible right next to me, so let's take a look. It's New International Version though, so you probably don't like it.

"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written in their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Romans 2:14-15 

Let me see if I understand this. People follow the morals of the Bible without knowing them. This proves that the morals have been placed in them?   

eXnihilO wrote:
To be honest it’s more of a promise than a threat and it’s actually a promise you can rely on right here and right now.

I’m not convinced that the bowing to Christ on judgment day will be a voluntary action by sinners. In fact, I highly doubt it.

Well, it doesn't have to be dichotomy. It's a promise and a threat, right? 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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...

 

butterbattle wrote:

We can't "prove" that logic works in the way you define these terms. 

 

I’m content with your omission that you cannot prove that logic works. From now on please refrain from making arguments against God with logic, and thank you.

 I think I defined the terms as well as possible... please interject if I have not.

butterbattle wrote:

It just seems to work…

Logic logically seems to work. I’m dizzy. Smiling

 

butterbattle wrote:

Let me see if I understand this. People follow the morals of the Bible without knowing them. This proves that the morals have been placed in them?

Yes, this is why I appeal to conscience and morality at times to prove God’s existence by necessity. I also believe this is another reason that they will be without excuse on the Day of Judgment. The problem for the non-believer is that God says that the good deeds of unbelievers are like filthy rags in His site, and the Bible also teaches that it is impossible to please God without faith.

 

butterbattle wrote:

Well, it doesn't have to be dichotomy. It's a promise and a threat, right?

It could be a matter of semantics, I say promise. The cause of anyone going to Hell is their own sin if that helps to clarify.

 

Taketh care Smiling

Speaking Truth in love,

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exwhatever wrote:Quote:It

exwhatever wrote:

Quote:

It could be a matter of semantics, I say promise. The cause of anyone going to Hell is their own sin if that helps to clarify.

 

Taketh care Smiling

 

Speaking Truth in love,

My very favorite aspect of the fundamentalist christian's programming is his/her devotion to what can only be described as a passive-aggressive like phoniness.

Sure, you'll suffer eternal torture for eternity... but it's really your own fault.....  A brilliant dark example of the human experience of manipulation if only such nonsense weren't actually believed in and even worse promoted.

"Taketh care"...  I'm so sure you want us all to take care.. and throw in that smiley face for a glimpse into what you really wish to happen.  Like history hasn't provided a horrifying and very clear picture of that already.

"Speaking Truth"..... Say did you know there are pills that will make your penis grow larger?  "It's real science".... I just watched the commercial.. it's true !!

And here's my favorite......."in love".  Love provides such a convenient camouflage for hatred, prejudice and even genocide.  Selling love to disguise the real product being sold...."ignorance" and "hate".. Is there anything more reprehensible ?

Well, ex-whatever.. You can take your phony love and stick it where the sun don't shine, because in my many years of experience in christian high schools, christian colleges, countless days in church, revivals, faith healings, etc.. this one thing has always seemed to reveal itself as fact....

 

You can always count on the most religious person in the room to also be the most morally bankrupt and the most bloodthirsty......  Guaranteed ! 

  

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
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You make me wonder if it's possible for a Christian to come here and explain and defend their position in a way you would consider worthy of your time. I apologize if I did anything personally that offended you, that was not my objective.

In way of response to what you said:

I can't blame you for being contentions towards the version of Christianity you were exposed to. By the sounds of it you were exposed to Americanized Churchianity in which case I am sorry for you. The fact of the matter is that you never had a personal relationship with Christ, which is the result of actually being a Christian.

All the best,

Speaking Truth in love,

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"You make me wonder if it's

"You make me wonder if it's possible for a Christian to come here and explain and defend their position in a way you would consider worthy of your time. "

If one can, they have yet to do so. No offense.

"I apologize if I did anything personally that offended you, that was not my objective."

Perhaps it would do you well to know that we don't believe in gods. At ALL. Yet you go around insinuating that we do. If we continually insinuated that you don't believe in yahweh, but really believe in zues, would you not be insulted? And what, for that matter, will it take for you to accept that our lack of belief is fact? Do you believe that the few uncontacted tribes in South America know your god?

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Yes, in my worlview the Bible carries the ultimate authority and defines reality.

In it, God reveals that all men know Him and suppress the truth in unrighteousness. 

Romans 1:18-25 wrote:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

 24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Romans 2:14-16 wrote:
14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 wrote:

"11He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart..."

We all know that there is more to life than meets the eye.

Speaking Truth in love,

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this will explain why you

this will explain why you are wrong.

 

"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose"

 

Im sure you understand now why you are wrong...... oh wait it doesn't matter what anyone rights you will just state they are wrong because you have god on your side or something

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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eXnihilO quotes what book of

eXnihilO quotes what book of doom wrote:
blah blah blah

I reject your bible as inadequate. It has been refuted. It was written by thieves, liars, and the mentally ill. It bears no single bounty but to have inspired a man to create a printing press so that man could use the invention to more efficiently and capably spread new ideas. Your religion was irrevocably proven wrong 400 years ago. The evidence has been collected and compiled against it for all that time, without a single piece of evidence to support it. You are part of a collective fraud upon mankind, and I will help fight your poison until the day I die, or the day your magic man proves himself to me. Good day.

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eXnihilO wrote:    

eXnihilO wrote:    

Quote:

The fact of the matter is that you never had a personal relationship with Christ, which is the result of actually being a Christian.

There's absolutely no need to blame "versions" of christianity that I or anyone else might have been exposed to.  We have YOU, eXnihilO.  So far you appear to be a perfect example.

Which brings me to this quote of yours above.  A careful look at history shows us that the most destructive force humans have ever experienced has really been their own ego.  The human ego unchecked or even worse, fed w/ less than constructive or manipulative ideology is responsible for our cruelest institutions and our most frightening atrocities.

So the applicable question here would be:  Does religious belief feed into or subvert the destructive human ego ?

There are millions of ex-christians across the globe, just as there are at least dozens across this forum. 

But they never had a "real" relationship with christ... not like YOU, eXnihilO...which means, in your own words, they were not "actual christians"...not like YOU, eXnihilO.

YOUR copy of the bible lends a supernatural enlightenment... mine is just words on paper. 

YOUR church preaches the word of the gospel as they were  meant to be preached.  Mine has failed me.. or perhaps I failed it.

YOU've been chosen by god.  I've been abandoned by him, by my own poor choices of course.

YOU understand "god" in ways that I or anyone else here could not possibly understand him.

YOU are a true christian... I never really understood the process.

YOU are a unique and special flower, eXnihilO.

 

There are thousands of examples throughout history of humans manufacturing "god-like" characters.  These are all man-made...but YOURS is divine !

There have been multiple hundreds of gods throughout history, all with a fervent and devoted belief...but YOURS is the true one, eXnihilO !  

Humans have manufactured gods out of fear.. to exploit and manipulate others..., etc.

but YOUR god is real, eXnihilo... and he (and it's always a "he" because every decent god has a wee-wee) brings LOVE... of course, unless you reject him.

Uh, yeah...  

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
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eXnihilO wrote:Yes, in my

eXnihilO wrote:

Yes, in my worlview the Bible carries the ultimate authority and defines reality.

In it, God reveals that all men know Him and suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Unfortunately the Bible poorly defines reality in my opinion. From the beginning it is unrealistic and has mythical origins connected to many anceint gods and cultures including Egyptian, Sumerian, and Canaanite. Sumerian creation myths predate the Bible by 1000 to 2000 years. The Sumerian flood myth as well. There is a Sumerian myth regarding how man lost immortality. All are far older than the Bible. Did your god for some reason not consider Abraham's probable ancestors worthy of the correct stories for these events? Or were these stories and several from Egyptian and Canaanaite sources the basis for some of the misty legends in the Bible?

Since you are a Christian, you have rejected many of the beliefs of Jewish thought, even though it was their belief system originally. To do so, you must have studied extensively Judaism and can detail how their beliefs were incorrectly interpreted for 100s of years prior to the writing of the NT books. Or you have just taken the word of Paul's writing, though he never met Christ and departed in many ways from the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. Please expalin your position.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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...

Vastet wrote:
It was written by thieves, liars, and the mentally ill. 

Your religion was irrevocably proven wrong 400 years ago. 

You are part of a collective fraud upon mankind, and I will help fight your poison until the day I die, or the day your magic man proves himself to me. Good day.

I guess I'll just have to take your word for it right? I guess that's why so many people still believe all over the world...

I'm glad your still open to God proving Himself to you, that means your not 100% certain your right.

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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"I guess I'll just have to

"I guess I'll just have to take your word for it right? I guess that's why so many people still believe all over the world..."

Even you must admit that only a very few christians are as faithful as yourself, even if you'll have to ask forgiveness for pride.

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.

AmericanIdle wrote:

ad hominem ad infinitum

Look, I empathize with you as a former Christian hating atheist myself.

But you are confusing a man who is confident of having the truth with the arrogance and ego you have been mistreated by in the past.

I admit that without God I would have nothing and I would hate God just as much as you, it's not ME, ME, ME that is so grandiose, it's God, God, God who saved a wretch like myself.

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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eXnihilO wrote:I’m

eXnihilO wrote:
I’m content with your omission that you cannot prove that logic works. From now on please refrain from making arguments against God with logic, and thank you.

Sigh....

*bangs head against wall*

Why, oh why, does it have to be all or nothing with you?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet wrote:even if you'll

Vastet wrote:
even if you'll have to ask forgiveness for pride.

Confidence, not pride my friend.

There is no credit to myself, it's God who motivates and empowers me and in the absence of His grace I would be nothing.

I'm proud of one thing, proud to admit that God is my savior and that without Him I would be nothing. If that is how pride is defined, I'm in.

 

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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eXnihilO wrote:Look, I

eXnihilO wrote:
Look, I empathize with you as a former Christian hating atheist myself.

But you are confusing a man who is confident of having the truth with the arrogance and ego you have been mistreated by in the past.

I admit that without God I would have nothing and I would hate God just as much as you, it's not ME, ME, ME that is so grandiose, it's God, God, God who saved a wretch like myself.

I don't know you, but most of us on this forum don't "hate" God, and we don't "hate" Christians. I wish you would believe that. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Why, oh

butterbattle wrote:

Why, oh why, does it have to be all or nothing with you?

Christians deal in absolutes.

Speaking Truth in love,

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butterbattle wrote:I don't

butterbattle wrote:

I don't know you, but most of us on this forum don't "hate" God, and we don't "hate" Christians. I wish you would believe that. 

In point of fact, you do.

The very reason that you claim the perspective you hold is that you are an enemy of God. You are spiritually dead and in need of the Holy Spirit...

If this bothers you, it should. And you should pray about it.
 

 

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

Unfortunately the Bible poorly defines reality in my opinion. From the beginning it is unrealistic and has mythical origins connected to many anceint gods and cultures including Egyptian, Sumerian, and Canaanite. Sumerian creation myths predate the Bible by 1000 to 2000 years. The Sumerian flood myth as well. There is a Sumerian myth regarding how man lost immortality. All are far older than the Bible. Did your god for some reason not consider Abraham's probable ancestors worthy of the correct stories for these events? Or were these stories and several from Egyptian and Canaanaite sources the basis for some of the misty legends in the Bible?

Since you are a Christian, you have rejected many of the beliefs of Jewish thought, even though it was their belief system originally. To do so, you must have studied extensively Judaism and can detail how their beliefs were incorrectly interpreted for 100s of years prior to the writing of the NT books. Or you have just taken the word of Paul's writing, though he never met Christ and departed in many ways from the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. Please expalin your position.

 

Reality is subject to the Bible's authority, not the other way around.

You may find 2000 year old Jewish Rabbinical Old Testament commentary to be interesting... Their omission of confusion over some of their own writings is amazingly clarified in the New Testament revelation, namely how the NT reconciles all of the problem texts of the OT regarding a perceived plurality of persons within the Godhead...

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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eXnihilO wrote:Vastet

eXnihilO wrote:

Vastet wrote:
even if you'll have to ask forgiveness for pride.

Confidence, not pride my friend.

There is no credit to myself, it's God who motivates and empowers me and in the absence of His grace I would be nothing.

I'm proud of one thing, proud to admit that God is my savior and that without Him I would be nothing. If that is how pride is defined, I'm in.

 

That's not quite what I subtly requested. Even if you give credit to all that is good in you to god, you must admit that very few are as faithful as yourself. The numbers of those who believe the bible literally are few. It must terrify you that the islamic equivalent to your craziness is spreading so quickly. At least we are on the same side in some fights.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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eXnihilO

eXnihilO wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

Unfortunately the Bible poorly defines reality in my opinion. From the beginning it is unrealistic and has mythical origins connected to many anceint gods and cultures including Egyptian, Sumerian, and Canaanite. Sumerian creation myths predate the Bible by 1000 to 2000 years. The Sumerian flood myth as well. There is a Sumerian myth regarding how man lost immortality. All are far older than the Bible. Did your god for some reason not consider Abraham's probable ancestors worthy of the correct stories for these events? Or were these stories and several from Egyptian and Canaanaite sources the basis for some of the misty legends in the Bible?

Since you are a Christian, you have rejected many of the beliefs of Jewish thought, even though it was their belief system originally. To do so, you must have studied extensively Judaism and can detail how their beliefs were incorrectly interpreted for 100s of years prior to the writing of the NT books. Or you have just taken the word of Paul's writing, though he never met Christ and departed in many ways from the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. Please expalin your position.

 

Reality is subject to the Bible's authority, not the other way around.

A book of legends and mythology has only the authority a delusional person gives to it.

You clearly dodge the point the Bible is not as ancient as the mythology texts of other cultures. You dodge the point the Bible has incorporated these myths in many places.

eXnihilO wrote:

You may find 2000 year old Jewish Rabbinical Old Testament commentary to be interesting... Their omission of confusion over some of their own writings is amazingly clarified in the New Testament revelation, namely how the NT reconciles all of the problem texts of the OT regarding a perceived plurality of persons within the Godhead...

So you are saying that you subscribe to Paulogy and accept his interpretations of Jewish theology as most of the NT is his writing.

As Jesus does not meet the definition and expectations of the Moshiach or as you will the messiah, how do you reconcile that the major prophets prophesied something Jesus was not and could not be?

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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...

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So you are saying that you subscribe to Paulogy and accept his interpretations of Jewish theology as most of the NT is his writing.

As Jesus does not meet the definition and expectations of the Moshiach or as you will the messiah, how do you reconcile that the major prophets prophesied something Jesus was not and could not be?

I reject the term Paulogy. The interpretation of Paul (a Jew as devout and learned as they come) as found in the NT, is the perfect and infallible words of God as Paul wrote as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit, who is also God.

If you are referring to the political Kingship of the Messiah then rest assured that it will come to pass as laid out in the book of Revelation.

If something else the please clarify.

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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eXnihilO wrote:Christians

eXnihilO wrote:
Christians deal in absolutes.

Yes, I know, but reality doesn't.

eXnihilO wrote:
In point of fact, you do.

Um, actually, no, no I don't.

Quote:
If this bothers you, it should.

It doesn't bother me. However, it does bother me that you insist that I hate you when I've already told you that I don't. It shows that you're really, really high up there on the religious scale. If the Christian God does exist, you'll be one of His first picks for heaven. 

Quote:
And you should pray about it.

I would, but my past experiences with prayer seem to show that it doesn't do anything. I might as well pray to a teapot.

Quote:
Reality is subject to the Bible's authority, not the other way around.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. You don't have to respond to the first part of this post then.

After all, if reality contradicts the Bible, then it must be reality that's wrong, right?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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......

I don't think it was fair to request me to not reply because of my beliefs not agreeing with you. I would imagine this is not the first moment you've realized this.

In way of defense:

We've covered absolutes. If reality doesn't deal in absolutes then you aren't absolutely correct.

I never said you hated me... I wish you would hate me rather than God, but your enmity is clearly with Him.

God has no commitment to unbelievers... You have to humble yourself and genuinely repent if you wish Him to do anything, prayers not according to the will of God are never granted as the Bible teaches. For instance, I doubt a prayer for a good person to die of a car accident would be granted.

It's not reality that is at fault, it's usually our sinful interpretation of it... we see what our sinful minds want to see despite what is really true.

Good night, and I do hope that God blesses you with repentance and faith. Don't worry if it sounds strange, when He changes your heart He also changes your desires. You begin to desire Him instead of what pleases yourself. If you ever feel that tug, don't be alarmed.

I pray for you guys and respect you all as men made in the image of an awesome God.

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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eXnihilO

eXnihilO wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So you are saying that you subscribe to Paulogy and accept his interpretations of Jewish theology as most of the NT is his writing.

As Jesus does not meet the definition and expectations of the Moshiach or as you will the messiah, how do you reconcile that the major prophets prophesied something Jesus was not and could not be?

I reject the term Paulogy. The interpretation of Paul (a Jew as devout and learned as they come) as found in the NT, is the perfect and infallible words of God as Paul wrote as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit, who is also God.

Of course you reject Paulogy, Paulinity or Pauline theology as terms, this is a surprise somehow.

eXnihilO wrote:

If you are referring to the political Kingship of the Messiah then rest assured that it will come to pass as laid out in the book of Revelation.

If something else the please clarify.

You as a Christian have rejected the prophesies of the Jews from all the major prophets such as this simple condensed list of prophecy:

All the Earth shall be at peace with one another after the Messiah has come no wars or hatred  -  Isaiah 2:4

The Jewish people will all return from exile from throughout all nations - Isaiah 11:11-12, Jeremiah 23:8, Jeremiah 30:3, Hosea 3:4-5,

All of the world will recognize the God of the Jews as the only true god and Judaism as the only true religion - Isaiah 2:3, Isaiah 11:10, Micah 4:2-3, Zechariah 14:9

Murder and robbery will no longer occur - Zephaniah 3:13

Did any of this occur with Jesus? No.

As I said, you have rejected Jewish belief that prophesied the messiah to be something other than what Jesus did. Jesus is a square peg into a round hole and does not fit into Jewish prophecy. Why would Isaiah, Jeremiah and Micah be wrong about what the god revealed to them. Perhaps your hero Paul had too much wine or had one too many epileptic seizures.

As to the fantasy rant in Revelation by John it was directed against Rome and the emperor, no more.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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eXnihilO wrote:AmericanIdle

eXnihilO wrote:

AmericanIdle wrote:

ad hominem ad infinitum

Look, I empathize with you as a former Christian hating atheist myself.

But you are confusing a man who is confident of having the truth with the arrogance and ego you have been mistreated by in the past.

I admit that without God I would have nothing and I would hate God just as much as you, it's not ME, ME, ME that is so grandiose, it's God, God, God who saved a wretch like myself.

I see.  You've learned a new phrase.. Maybe you should actually learn what an argument based on personal attacks is before you go throwing it around loosely.  It's really not too much to ask is it ? 

How could you possibly have been an "atheist" when you don't even understand what that word defines ?

I imagine, nearly every arrogant, egotistical person in history that I can think of, found justification for their actions with self re-assurance that they have "the truth".  Arrogance and submission to the ego prevent one from being honest with themselves.  That's the point...unfortunately lost on you.

Recollection of past "mistreatment" is unnecessary.  You exemplify a man of "god" perfectly.. and incidentally that's so very far from a compliment.

How exactly do I hate something that doesn't exist ?  Do you hate Allah ?

On September 11th, 2001, ..19 hijackers murdered thousands for Allah.  Its the least they could do for he surely saved wretches like themselves.  Didn't he ?  So did they sacrifice innocent victims for "god" or for their own sense of guilt and their own ego ?

 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

You as a Christian have rejected the prophesies of the Jews from all the major prophets such as this simple condensed list of prophecy…

Did any of this occur with Jesus? No.

As to the fantasy rant in Revelation by John it was directed against Rome and the emperor, no more.

I think that during the dark ages the Catholic Church would have been more intentional about rewriting history assuming you are right about the fallings short of Jesus Christ when compared to Jewish prophecy… I believe you are holding contradictory positions here.

The truth of the matter is that all the prophecy about the Messiah either has been, is being, or will be fulfilled in Jesus.

The book of Revelation is addressed to, and I quote:

“the seven churches that are in Asia”

And…

"Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

Also,

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches…”

This is hardly directed against Rome and the emperor my friend…

AmericanIdle wrote:

How could you possibly have been an "atheist" when you don't even understand what that word defines ?

On September 11th, 2001, ..19 hijackers murdered thousands for Allah.  Its the least they could do for he surely saved wretches like themselves.  Didn't he ?  So did they sacrifice innocent victims for "god" or for their own sense of guilt and their own ego ?

What gave you the idea that I don’t understand what the word atheist defines?

Philosophically, atheists tend to custom-define the term, but practically it doesn’t matter which way you define it.

You either live as though God is the Creator and supreme authority of your life or you don’t, it’s irrelevant as to how well you have philosophically defined your terms.

As for the hijackers… Those men were probably once little boys playing nicely with others and were loved by their family and others… I say that to avoid you accusing me as not caring as much as you do. They were men made in the image of God and death is always tragic. Were they evil men? Yes. Are we all evil men? Yes. The sad reality is that they were given over to their own desires due to their own hardening of their own heart… The only reason that you or I aren’t on the next hijacked airplane is because God in His mercy acts to constantly restrict us from doing the evil that we are all capable of.

Those with the Spirit of God are certainly more privileged than others in this respect, but it’s certainly not because we are any better than anyone else by nature or by our own doing, lest any of us boast for being saved… We simply serve as a mirror that deflects all the glory back to God for loving us so much.

No man is any better or worse than those hijackers. By nature we are all capable of such evil. It’s not a religious thing, it’s a sin thing, and buddy far more have fallen at the hands of atheist dictators that corrupt men pretending to be amongst the clergy…

At least when alleged Christians commit atrocities they are acting in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches. When the non-believer commits genocide, there are no moral feathers to ruffle to begin with, so they are acting perfectly in line with their worldview… this is a significant thing to note.

All the best,

Speaking Truth in love,

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eXnihilO wrote:I don't think

eXnihilO wrote:
I don't think it was fair to request me to not reply because of my beliefs not agreeing with you.

Why do I even bother?......

First of all, I didn't request that you not reply. I said, "You don't have to respond," because your post already answered my question.

Second, you little hypocrite. The entire time you've been here, you've been arguing that atheists aren't even allowed to discuss these topics with you because they don't deal with absolutes, as if this is some kind of prerequisite to use logic.  

eXnihilO wrote:
I would imagine this is not the first moment you've realized this.

Yeah, I realized it when you did it.

eXnihilO wrote:
We've covered absolutes. If reality doesn't deal in absolutes then you aren't absolutely correct.

Duh! And neither are you. There would be uncertainty, so I would be almost certainly correct, and you would be almost certainty incorrect. 

eXnihilO wrote:
I never said you hated me...

Yes. Yes you did.

"Look, I empathize with you as a former Christian hating atheist myself."

"I don't know you, but most of us on this forum don't "hate" God, and we don't "hate" Christians. I wish you would believe that." 

"In point of fact, you do."

eXnihilO wrote:
I wish you would hate me rather than God, but your enmity is clearly with Him.

Depending on the specific God, I might hate his character. For example, I don't like the God of the old testament, but, in general, I like Jesus. However, I don't actually hate him as any actual entity because I don't believe that he exists. For example, I hate Lord Voldemort, and I don't believe that he exists. But, I don't reject him because I hate him. I don't accept that he exists because there is no evidence; he is fictional. Understand now? 

eXnihilO wrote:
God has no commitment to unbelievers... You have to humble yourself and genuinely repent if you wish Him to do anything, prayers not according to the will of God are never granted as the Bible teaches.

Yeah, and this is the God that you derive your morality from? A narcissistic sociopath that pardons those who become his slave and allows eternal torture for everyone else?

Your entire religion is in stage one of Kohlberg's outline of moral development in children. Punishment and obedience orientation. God uses his authority and power to blackmail humans into following what is good/evil and right/wrong. His followers are supposed to submit to his iron fist absolutely and unquestioningly or suffer the consequences.

eXnihilO wrote:
For instance, I doubt a prayer for a good person to die of a car accident would be granted.

There is no evidence that any prayer has ever been granted, ever. An honest prayer for a good person to die of a car accident, a bad person to die of a car accident, a good person to not die of a car accident, or a bad person to not die of a car accident would all have the same effect on the odds of the person in question dying in a car accident.

No effect at all.   

eXnihilO wrote:
It's not reality that is at fault, it's usually our sinful interpretation of it... we see what our sinful minds want to see despite what is really true.

Great. Maybe your "sinful mind" is tricking you into thinking that the Earth is a sphere when it's actually a flat disc? How do you know it's a sphere? Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is a sphere? Or, how about this? Where in the Bible does it say that the Earth revolves around the Sun? Isn't that blasphemous? Obviously, the Earth should be at the center of the universe. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


The Doomed Soul
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eXnihilO wrote:Don't worry

eXnihilO wrote:

Don't worry if it sounds strange, when He changes your heart He also changes your desires. You begin to desire Him instead of what pleases yourself. If you ever feel that tug, don't be alarmed.

 

*swipes beer off monitor*

 

... damn... does that sound just a little homoerotic to anyone else?

What Would Kharn Do?


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The Doomed Soul wrote:...

The Doomed Soul wrote:
... damn... does that sound just a little homoerotic to anyone else?

Well...God is male...and you're male...and God loves you more than two gays could ever love each other.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


pauljohntheskeptic
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eXnihilO

eXnihilO wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

You as a Christian have rejected the prophesies of the Jews from all the major prophets such as this simple condensed list of prophecy…

Did any of this occur with Jesus? No.

As to the fantasy rant in Revelation by John it was directed against Rome and the emperor, no more.

I think that during the dark ages the Catholic Church would have been more intentional about rewriting history assuming you are right about the fallings short of Jesus Christ when compared to Jewish prophecy… I believe you are holding contradictory positions here.

The truth of the matter is that all the prophecy about the Messiah either has been, is being, or will be fulfilled in Jesus.


Excuse me, you don't even know why the people who began the worship of Yahweh, the supposed true God don't accept Jesus as their messiah? Could it be possible that you just worship and pray to your Bible and never even open it?

Why would the Catholic Church have anything to do with the reasons Jews think Jesus was just another Messiah wannabe. He was one of over a dozen in the 1st century CE.

I see no contradictory position here on my part. I consider Yahweh to be a Canaanite god sometimes called El, and even called Ba'al in some of the ancient Canaanite texts being just another god developed by unknowing people who were ignorant of reality.  You are the one that believe this mythical entity is something more than even those that created it to be. Your true god as far as I'm concerned is nothing more than the developed legend of ancient unknowing people in Palestine. Your belief is an additional morphing of that legend into even more perversity and distortion. And you don't even seem to know what the original belief system entailed.

I'm asking you why the Jews who developed the worship of the thunder and volcano god Yahweh misinterpreted their own scriptures, prophesies, and creative writing. It would be wrong apparently  for 100s and 100s of years if Christianity is true. Can you point to the place in the prophets and show where they misunderstood. What is it and when did it occur? If you don't know or can't figure it out. perhaps you are worshiping a false messiah. Maybe Judaism is correct, and your worship of Jesus is heresy

Was it Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, or another that sent the Jews understanding in a direction that was incorrect? Or was it Ezra, the redactor priest? Do you even have a clue about what the Jews believe or are you just so wrapped in ecstasy in your beliefs you don't even consider there could be a problem?

As to Jesus fulfilling the prophecies of the Jewish prophets, so far he failed as described in the Gospels. Even if he was real, he died without ever bringing in the Kingdom of God as envisioned in Jewish scripture.

 

eXnihilO wrote:

The book of Revelation is addressed to, and I quote:

“the seven churches that are in Asia”

And…

"Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

Also,

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches…”

This is hardly directed against Rome and the emperor my friend…

 

What is it you do, read the chapter headings in your Bible and never read the content? Or is it you just can't comprehend things that contradict your preconceived notions or the programming you received?

So what if the book is addressed to the 7 churches,  the rant is against Rome. Is this somehow beyond you?

The Rant John makes is so clearly against Rome you'd have to be completely oblivious to miss it.

He uses Babylon as a pseudonym for Rome. See chapter 17 and 18. The seven heads are representative of Rome. Rome is the whore. Rome was the one that killed their leader Jesus. Rome was the one supposedly persecuting the Jesus believers. How do you miss this? Are you so enthralled with John's bloody violent descriptions or what?

As to the bloody violence John in extreme detail wrote, clearly he was a vengeful hateful person to even envision such wanton destruction and gore. He was badly in need of psychiatric help, something certainly not available at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


eXnihilO
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ergo

 

butterbattle wrote:

The entire time you've been here, you've been arguing that atheists aren't even allowed to discuss these topics with you because they don't deal with absolutes, as if this is some kind of prerequisite to use logic.  

I’ve told several people not to use logic unless they admit their circularity or that God exists and I have told people who reject the notion of absolute truth not to pretend they are absolutely right. I never expect you to stop arguing. I do hope that those who reject absolutes will give in to the fact that they cannot possibly be right.

 

butterbattle wrote:

Duh! And neither are you. There would be uncertainty, so I would be almost certainly correct, and you would be almost certainty incorrect. 

You must be a glass half full kind of guy, that’s good. You can’t deny the fact that if absolutes do not exist then no matter how ‘almost’ certain you are you are not right.

 

butterbattle wrote:

Yes. Yes you did.

"Look, I empathize with you as a former Christian hating atheist myself."

"I don't know you, but most of us on this forum don't "hate" God, and we don't "hate" Christians. I wish you would believe that." 

"In point of fact, you do."

In all honesty, I did not mean to imply that you hated me with either of those. The first I was only trying to relate and should have chosen my words better. The other I was referring to your comment regarding God. I couldn’t possibly know that you hate me so that would be quite an assumption. The Bible tells me that you are an enemy of God, and only Christians tend to love their enemies. Feel free to correct me. Love is more than just not hating though.

butterbattle wrote:

Depending on the specific God, I might hate his character. For example, I don't like the God of the old testament, but, in general, I like Jesus. However, I don't actually hate him as any actual entity because I don't believe that he exists. For example, I hate Lord Voldemort, and I don't believe that he exists. But, I don't reject him because I hate him. I don't accept that he exists because there is no evidence; he is fictional. Understand now? 

Not to offend, but this comment is indicative of your lack of understanding the Christian faith. Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. God is triune in nature. There is one God comprised of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is co-equal in nature and co-eternal. The Father does have authority over the Son and the Father and Son have authority over the person of the Holy Spirit. This is analogous to the bond of man and wife. Equal in dignity and nature, but separate in authority and roles.

That is the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

butterbattle wrote:

Yeah, and this is the God that you derive your morality from? A narcissistic sociopath that pardons those who become his slave and allows eternal torture for everyone else?

… His followers are supposed to submit to his iron fist absolutely and unquestioningly or suffer the consequences.

The Bible teaches that we are all slaves and always will be. There is a Master who is actually worthy to be served though… God is such a master. He is our heavenly Father who loves us much more than we could imagine, this is a Master I will gladly be a slave to. The other option is to remain a slave to yourself, which is a scheme propagated by Satan and will land you in Hell eventually.

I submit to God willingly because He is worthy of my submission, not because He has an iron fist.

 

butterbattle wrote:

There is no evidence that any prayer has ever been granted, ever…

No effect at all.   

You’re quite wrong my friend. I’ve seen multiple answered prayers that you would quickly chock up to chance and circumstance according to your presuppositions.

I’ve heard stories of documented prayers being answered... Google it if you are so inclined.

butterbattle wrote:

…Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is a sphere? Or, how about this? Where in the Bible does it say that the Earth revolves around the Sun? Isn't that blasphemous? Obviously, the Earth should be at the center of the universe. 

You seem properly acquainted with the antics of Christopher Hitchens…

Nevertheless, the Bible is not a science book and never claims to be. It’s perfectly in synch with science, but never claims to host all scientific truths. I think God did this so that scientists could repeatedly glorify Him in the discoveries that demonstrate His majesty until the end of this age…

The Bible never says that the Earth revolves around the sun or otherwise, nor does it comment on the flatness of the Earth, nor does it claim that geocentricity is a theological belief therefore it couldn’t possibly be blasphemy… I’m not seeing the relevance here.

The Earth is certainly given primacy in the Bible, and God is shown to be sovereign over His creation many times, but nothing states that the position of geocentricity is a doctrine, except maybe the erroneous and early Roman Catholics…

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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eXnihilO
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...

 

“Could it be possible that you just worship and pray to your Bible and never even open it?”

Well, given the fact that I neither worship nor pray to a book, no.

“Why would the Catholic Church have anything to do with the reasons Jews think Jesus was just another Messiah wannabe.”

There is a nearly universal and general assumption on the part of atheists that the RCC had something to do with the altering of the historical Jesus, that was my point, it was in jest.

“He was one of over a dozen in the 1st century CE.”

I hear about this from non-believers but they never seem to produce as many with any amount of historically reliable evidence to support themselves, I wonder why there is none in your post…

“I'm asking you why the Jews misinterpreted their own scriptures, prophesies, and creative writing. It would be wrong apparently  for 100s and 100s of years if Christianity is true. Can you point to the place in the prophets and show where they misunderstood…”

They didn’t misinterpret the Scriptures, they misinterpreted Jesus in direct fulfillment of the prophets. The rejection of Jesus by the Jews was and continues to be confirmation of prophecy. They missed their Messiah.

“Was it Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, or another that sent the Jews understanding in a direction that was incorrect? Or was it Ezra, the redactor priest? Do you even have a clue about what the Jews believe or are you just so wrapped in ecstasy in your beliefs you don't even consider there could be a problem?”

None of the above… You are beating down a straw man here, and man did you whoop him. There are no problems. The Bible is the Word of God, it’s perfect in it’s entirety, that is a point you  won’t move me from. I will gladly place my own mental health on trial before God’s word takes the stand.

“As to Jesus fulfilling the prophecies of the Jewish prophets, so far he failed as described in the Gospels. Even if he was real, he died without ever bringing in the Kingdom of God as envisioned in Jewish scripture.”

 We both know Jesus is real. You seemed to have ignored the book of Revelation in this respect.

“What is it you do, read the chapter headings in your Bible and never read the content? Or is it you just can't comprehend things that contradict your preconceived notions or the programming you received?”

I’m not sure I understand your concern, I only read your comment heading...

Kidding…

If by ‘can’t comprehend things that contradict your preconceived notions…’ you mean ‘refuse to believe that there is a contradiction within the Word of God’ then yes.

“So what if the book is addressed to the 7 churches,  the rant is against Rome. Is this somehow beyond you?

The Rant John makes is so clearly against Rome you'd have to be completely oblivious to miss it.

He uses Babylon as a pseudonym for Rome. See chapter 17 and 18. The seven heads are representative of Rome. Rome is the whore. Rome was the one that killed their leader Jesus. Rome was the one supposedly persecuting the Jesus believers. How do you miss this?”

 

I misunderstood your usage of ‘directed against.’ The entire book is clearly not against Rome. Portions of it may be, I grant you that, but what is your point?  

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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I sense a dodge...

I sense a dodge...

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