Another words, socialism is overrated.

Good point... but you don't get away that easily.

You make a point of confusing the symptoms of a problem with the problem itself, because of this thread's incredibly and uniquely faulty premise. But you may have just posted a faulty premise of your own... I'll wait and see.

Of course when workers pay 60% income tax, businesses that need a lot of freebies from the government find it to be a paradise. The corporate tax is not very high compared to other countries, it's lower than the USA. When someone else picks up the tab for your expenses, it's a pretty good deal. But we don't see software workers finding it to be a paradise, only a business that requires a lot of infrastructure.

"A major long-term issue will be the sharp decline in the ratio of workers to retirees."

Denmark: Budget slipping into the red

Yin-Yang at work already.
 

Always with the backpedal, EXC. You're stubborn, I'll give you that, but we both know that a welfare state being recommended as a business paradise defeats every possible "State social programs destroy enterprise" argument at its core.  There's no getting around it.

That's a global problem that every post war boom country now faces because the numbers born between 1945 and 1960 far far outweigh the size of the generation born between 1960 and 1980. It's not unique to Denmark, nor to socialism. It is, in fact, the direct product of capitalism's golden era come back to bite it on the arse.

In 2007-->2008 the whole world was "slipping into the red" that's what happens in a Global Recession. This is not material to the viability of a welfare state unless you want to point out that the Danes yet survived, through the GFC, even though they have one.

Nowhere near the amount given to corporate sector by US government. None of your industry and almost none of your agroculture would exist without government aid.

That is a direct lie. Corporate taxes within DK are 28%, many fight tooth and nail to avoid paying them. In US G. Sachs paid less than 1% effective taxes in 2008, but I am sure they made up for it in 2009. I call that regulation-by-hysterical-optimism, or conservative financial wisdom.

Hi, I am a Software Engineer in a medium sized software development company based in Copenhagen. My company has been awarded Gazelle award for the past 3 years, meaning growth of 30%+. We are only one of many such companies in the market at the moment. Please stop lieing about us.

Better give all our money to the few rich real quick then, that ought to fix the problem. Right?

Unlike the US free market paradise of balanced budget. Or that diamond of free market, the "A student" of the Chicago School economics, Argentina back in the 70es.

You do understand that government is trying its outmost to offset the disaster brought by the free market financial system? Do you close your eyes selectively, or just don't bother open them at all?

I'm againt corporate welfare as well. That's what government does, transfers wealth from the productive to the non-productive(rich and poor). Since you admit this you can't claim the USA is a "free market".

The difference is in the USA you get more deductions and it's a progressive tax. So for profitable companies the tax is higher in the USA, plus here in California there is a high corporate tax. So for highly profitable companies without deductions the rates are higher in the USA.

The top federal rate in the USA is 39%, plus 12% in California. So a profitable company with no deductions in California could pay double that of Denmark. Hardly a capitalist paradise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Helllloooo, that is what corporate accountants are FOR.  Making sure the corp doesn't have any net profits on the books for income tax purposes.  Duh.  Mom and Pop sole proprietor businesses pay taxes.  Any business that can afford a tax accountant doesn't pay squat.  That's what loopholes are for - that is why they pay off their congressmen.

Payroll taxes are a whole 'nother argument.

And again, I ask you.  Where is this Mecca, Shambala, Utopia where there is unregulated capitalism, no taxes (perhaps fees), and an infrastructure good enough that your mythical software engineer has reliable power and phone (wired or wireless)?  Where is said mythical SE going to run to escape the evil taxman?  One example, and I promise to rethink my position on Libertarianism and I might - if the example were compelling enough - join you on the dark side.

I'd say move to Oregon - we are like 47th in the US for business taxes - 46th if this new tax passes.  But we have too many ex-pat Californians here already.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

Right so you either pay the taxman or you payoff tax lawyers and accounts. They are politically connected so they make sure the complex tax code ensures a steady stream of customers.

The world is ruled by the gun. So you got one gang of people demanding their rights againts the other people demanding their rights. Everyone wants something for nothing, that's what politics is all about. That's why the free market can't exist.

Well they had the free state movement to try and make New Hapshire a libertarian haven. I don't the Feds would let this happen. The other option is building giant cruz ships to excape the tax man and the tax lawyers. Eventually people with escape into space to escape the irrationality of non-pay as you go economics.

Yes voting with their feet. You can't explain to the socialists here that this is what happens with an irrational tax and spend government. But, I'm not free to pump my own gas in Oregon.

How are they politically connected?  It is not obvious to me, so if you would, please, explain?  I have met business owners who have told me the accountants cost more than paying the taxes, but they won't pay taxes on principle.  And I have to wonder - what principle is that?  No infrastructure for all, including your very own business?

Cruise ships or space ships won't work.  As an ex-pat, you are required to pay taxes in your own state/country regardless of where you currently live.  Get that all the time here in Portland.  Lots of people live in Vancouver, WA, just across the Columbia River.  No income tax in Washington.  So people live in Washington, work in Portland, and still have to pay income tax in Oregon.  Sure, it is a smaller percentage than if they lived in Oregon, but still they pay.

When they gripe at me, I tell them working in Oregon is their choice.  They are free to find a job in Washington and not pay any income tax.  Those living in Oregon and working in Washington also pay income tax in Oregon. 

Washington, on the other hand, has a sales tax and Oregon does not.  Optimally, if you lived and worked in Washington, but were close enough to Oregon to shop there, you could pay very modest amounts of tax.  Property tax you are stuck with.  I have not heard of anywhere in this country where you do not pay property tax.  When I worked at the Health District, they had to pay property tax on the copier they owned.  Even though they were a county agency.  Death and taxes .....

It is annoying -- I like to pump my own gas, it's faster.  Not cheaper, however.  Washington raised their gas taxes so their prices are comparable with Oregon's.  Washington lowered their automobile tax so they are comparable with Oregon.  Then, you could live in Arizona - sales tax, income tax, property tax (the seniors don't have to pay, so everyone else pays more), high automobile and gas taxes.  My friend, there are taxes everywhere.  Ultimately, there is no where to get away from them.  Death and taxes .....

My uncle, a business man, once told me, "Pay your taxes a day early and a dollar too much.  Taxes are a cost of doing business, and if you can't pay them, you have more serious problems than taxes."  PS, he is very wealthy, unlike me.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

No, what is the political connection between tax lawyers, accountants, and "the taxman".  I get the connection between congress, lobbyists, and corporations.  What I don't get is how accountants get in there.  They are just trying to save their company money.  Most accountants I know get a great deal of satisfaction lowering the tax bill of their employer.  They - and I for that matter - are all for a flat tax.  At least more of the larger corps would pull their own weight.  And, as far as I know, there isn't an accountants or tax lawyers lobby group - though I guess I wouldn't be surprised if one or more existed.

Which thief?  The one who utilizes community infrastructure without paying their fair share?  The one who relies on that community for the customers and clients that enable them to be in business?

Sadly, no.  That is not how it works.  I knew someone who moved from CA to OR.  He had to pay income taxes in both states for all wages earned that year regardless in which state they were earned.  Also, I worked for a big international engineering firm - same deal.  You had an appointment scheduled with a company expert concerning your taxes before you left to work on an overseas project.  They paid U.S. income tax on their earnings in a foreign country.  Whether they paid income tax in the foreign country varied, I believe.  Hence, the appointment with the expert.

Naw, it is the people living in Oregon.  People have told me, "I don't have to pump my own gas.  I don't have to get out in the rain or cold or snow.  I'm glad I don't live in Washington or California."  And then they usually continue on about great service and lower prices.  Neither of which is true as far as I can tell.  But most people believe what they want to believe.  They don't ask for facts to support their opinions.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

I have a solution: instead of sending soldiers with guns to Haiti hostile-takeover style, send them with digging equipment, doctors, medical equipment, food and water. Soldiers sent down there right now should drop the weapons, disregard direct orders and start helping the local community efforts to recover.

Not only will the soldiers not be abandoned in that case, I can guarantee you they would be lifted to the status of saints.

However, untill such a time when soldiers are either used for support of local communities or when they themselves refuse to be a tool of imperialistic ambitions, US soldiers WILL ALWAYS be abandoned by every side that there is. Whoever is abusing them will never care for them. The rest will see them for what they are: henchmen for global killers. Would you support henchmen for global killers?

You support your brothers in arms? No problem.

Do you support the rear echelon that sent you there and made you corporate security (without question)?

 i can't debate the fact that i have been sent here to protect my fellow soldiers, protect contractors, and end human life if that time should ever come. that argument is flawless, so i won't dwell on it.

however, you of all people have to realize the kind of mindset a soldier has. i too will go on a preaching spree. bare with me.

back at home, i was all about the politics: ron paul this, no big government that, yet i still joined. i didn't join because i had a "deep desire" to "serve my country," or because i wanted to kill; i joined because i had nowhere else to go. consider this: half of the american servicemen and women killed in iraq came from a town with fewer than 25,000 people; one out of every five came from a town with less than 5,000. now, if you have already assumed, even after my last period, that i came from a town with less than 5,000 people, then you assumed correctly. i didn't grow up in a house of ridiculous wealth. i did grow up middle-class, meaning i always had a warm bed to sleep in and i wasn't afraid to walk down my street, but i wasn't wealthy. my dad is a librarian at a middle school, and my mom manages a construction company (i live with my dad). in either case, i couldn't pay for college. what's worse, i had no idea what i would do even if i could afford college. i was always getting written up by my teachers for smartass comments, drinking soda and burping in neighbors' faces, cheating on tests etc., so i figured sitting at a desk just wasn't for me. after graduation it was either get a girl pregnant and start selling drugs (no joke) or join. i joined. i'm still living with the fact that i'm a statistic, but i had no choice in the matter. i just can't think about politics while i'm here. maybe in the states, but not here.

and to say that i don't know america's true heritage is a stretch. to suggest i don't know about the fact that the indians were raped, pillaged, and murdered to almost literal oblivion by columbus and his goons is also a stretch. and then there was the slave trade, where africans sold other africans to christian slaveholders so that they too could be murdered and beaten around like cattle. we could bring up how women were tortured and burned because they were thought to be "witches" by their loving christian husbands, sons and brothers and sisters. we could go forward to WW2, where we knew pearl harbor was going to be bombed, and we did nothing about it, just so the economy would recover. we could talk about how martin luther king, jr. was despised as a "nigger who didn't know his place," by the rich white men in politics who openly fought against things they didn't understand. we could talk about how the founder of "the aryan nation" was actually an atheist who used christianity to justify his bigotry. we could talk about how vietnam was actually a 10-year war and that the CIA experimented with LSD and assassinated people who threatened to tell. we could talk about how george bush, jr. rigged his elections and got away with it. we could talk about how cheney let his contracting homies get away with murder, but somehow every american soldier who kills an innocent gets life in prison. we could talk about how bush is an oil-man. we could talk about how quick both "polar-opposite" parties jumped to the thought of bailing out the banks. and we can also talk about how not one single president has ever even come close to following the US constitution to the dot. 

you may talk about those things, but i won't. i won't talk about any of those things because i'm in iraq... and politics are very far from my mind outside of this website.

in the end, we're all henchmen. we can't help it. you know as well as i do that some time after you read this, your fridge will need to be re-stocked, or you will want another xbox game, or your girl will want to go to a movie. and, like you are destined to do, you will go and fuel the rich and the wicked. it's a fact of life. when i get back, what will i have waiting for me? a few shots of whiskey and a pat on the back. if obama decided to wage war on north korea tomorrow, would you be the first to pick up a sniper rifle? i doubt it. what i enable them to do overseas you enable them to do at home. would i be willing to fight in a revolution against the government? absolutely. hell, i'd pick my uniform up and start teaching guerilla tactics to the first extremist group i could find. i could say it would never happen, but then i would only be trying to jinx it.

i'm not sure if i even debated what you said. i just felt like i had to get that out there. whoops!

Well, we can't all have our shit paid for by taxes, can we? It's always interesting to hear from a libertarian soldier - you don't like socialism but belong to a massive socialist organization.

So, since you bought into the "fighting for freedom and democracy" crap that they put you over there for - how's it going?

Incidentally, I've been fighting to get you guys sent back home since this started - you're welcome.

$$$

If we had a flat tax or even better privatized pay as you go services, do you know how many accountants, lobbyists and tax lawyers would have to find a new line of employment. They are probably the biggest obstacle to change.

Anyone that uses the political system to get something for nothing. That is what politics is all about.

you obviously didn't pay attention to my rant, where i clearly stated that i did NOT join to fight for "freedom and democracy," but because i had nowhere else to go. 

did you want us to come home from iraq so bad that you voted for obama? if so, are your hands now stained because of the deaths we're suffering in afghanistan? or is it only the president's fault?

The USSR had more natural resources per capita than the USA did. They could have sold oil, gas and minerals to finance the continuance of the cold war. Of course these never got developed very well because the politicians and their cronies got rich while the workers that could do this never benefited. Same with weapons systems, no incentive for the workers when your inventions and hard work are taken by the party.

It was mainly just globalization. When the Soviets got a hold of blue jeans, rock and roll music, western consumer goods, the people saw how inferior was their standard of living. The communist party was essentially a mafia that shook down who ever had money to enrich the powerful. That's why they went form communist party rule to Russian mafia rule, it's wasn't much of a cultural difference.

The problem with the transition to the free market was they let a few rich and powerful take control of all the natural resources instead of having a rational system to allow everyone to benefit from them.

I'm for the government providing things that it can provide more easily and more efficiently than corporations wher possible. Charging overinflated rates for essentials that people can't pay is neither easy or efficient.

Face it you want a government monopoly as well - you just want large corporations owning it.

I'm also not against enjoying the profits of one's own labor. I am against the corporations enjoying themselves from my labor while I can't profit from it.

Are you a trust fund baby or something? This stuff is simple enough to understand if you have or have had a job.

I am not telling you to think politics. I am telling you to think yourself - when you are 80 years old, what is it you want to remember? You can do that in Iraq. Especially in Iraq.

Water under the bridge, only half of the truth. What they did can't be what stops us from what we must do. For every one of them, there are thousands fighting against them. If they got their way always, we would be in underground tunnels just mining ore for them. But we're not. And every now and then their blood is spilled. Every now and then, one of their dictators falls. And ALWAYS there is resistance through community cohesion, education and social awareness.

Your heritage are people like Fred Hampton too. You just have to choose it. We have to choose it.

I think this bit of honesty really is something worth holding on to and talking about more. Yes, you are right about me. I am drinking Coca Cola as I type and I own a business that lives on surveilance of the local population.

But that's not who I want to see when I am 80 and look back. I want to use everything I know and do right. I am talking half to you half to me right now.

We don't have to talk about all the water under the bridge untill our mouth falls apart, obviously we both got the taste of truth with mother's milk. We should do the next step. That could be, I don't know, looking for models for resistance or something. I know it sucks that Martin L. King and Fred Hampton got shot, but many others didn't. And even in their short lives, they had clarity of vision, true freedom, were true men. Just the same as when we talk about the shit they serve us, we must start seeing the corosive effect of our own apathy and fight it. Especially in Iraq. What waits for you back home must be of your own choosing. Of our choosing.

You debated more important stuff than what I said. I might have been unclear with some of the stuff in this post, but the bottom line is that repeating the bad is not what I want us to do. We got those basics, no need to repeat their dirtly laundry between the two of us, not before we have a vision of what our heritage must be and how to make it America's heritage.

Sure the stuff we do might seem like working for them and it is. But we're still alive, aren't we? And there are many people living the fight against them in many ways, making the world that much less of a hell. We can choose that, can't we? I think we must.

Apart from what I wrote above, I second this.

I have been against going to war in both places from the beginning - the motivation was wrong. Oil is not a good reason for war - ever. Politics is a crappy way to gain peace - I prefer more effective measures.

What does this have to be with you complaining about government helping its citizens while benefiting from it again?

Just for giggles - are you still in country or are you making your complaints while in a nice safe stateside base?

So, an authoritarian government mass murders an ethnic group. Are libertarians OK with that? Of course not. Are you stupid or just playing stupid? Authoritarian governments are obviously things that libertarians don't like.

And the Ukrainians did have their affairs in order before Stalin had their food seized from them. Libertarians obviously don't advocate that governments take people's food in order to wipe them out.

And, again obviously, libertarians don't advocate that the government brutalize dissidents. Come on, Kevin. Why are you straw-manning libertarians over and over again in those two paragraphs? Why play dumb like this? You already know that we don't advocate an authoritarian government that mass murders dissidents and people from unpopular ethnic groups. I guess I just don't know why you are playing this game.

And I don't remember any libertarians advocating that we obliterate North Korea. Can you refresh my memory on who advocated that? Even Ron Paul, who is pretty far to the right as libertarians go, is against even considering North Korea a threat to the US. He doesn't even want us to sanction them. Is that man a peace-loving liberal beatnik or what? I thought that libertarians were against most wars. Could that be yet another libertarian straw man?

Again with the cartoonishly evil straw man. You think that we are actual corporate fat cats who laugh at senseless death while drinking champagne. That's the image of libertarians you have. It is almost funny.

Also, I've heard Ron Paul denounce racism and identity politics. I have heard him denouncing don't ask, don't tell and saying that gays should be able to serve openly. He seems to be against racist and anti-gay laws. So I don't think it is right to complain that he is just a racist quack. He did say something along the lines of "that guy's as queer as the blazes" in Bruno. But I don't take offense to that. The character Bruno is as queer as the blazes.

That quote from Leo Szilard is very true. Was it meant as a critique of libertarianism? I don't see how that is against wanting a relatively small government that values personal and economic freedom.

I suppose the charitable contribution tax break is not a factor?  And the desire to have a generous public image also doesn't matter? 

Yeah, yeah, corps donate money to 501(3)c corps and that tells us what? 

I'll believe that corps are the good guys they want us to believe they are, when they stop paying off government representatives in the countries where they do business.

I have yet to figure out, how does giving money to charities, giving money to bribe governments, and paying huge bonuses to top execs NOT cause inflation?  I mean, they are giving all that money away that could be better spent on R&D or business process improvements or better wages and benefits for their employees.  Or just to reduce the costs of their goods and services.  Doesn't the cost of goods and services rise because of these additional non-productive costs?

Then the power goes out at about 6pm and the hydro company takes 4 hours to fix it because it happened after their regular work hours and workers complain to their unions about overtime, and then when they do find the source of the problem they stand around eating sandwiches because it's their right to take 30 minute breaks for every 10 minutes of actual work.

Oh and when my city wants to put in a private wind mill of clean energy they won't let the evil greedy private company built because our smelly polluting coal plant is "good enough" and we need to determine if wind mills are safer than nuclear power plants or coal plants! Think of the children!

When the pipes rusted and burst, the city determined it would cost millions of dollars and take years. Then they hired a private company that fixed it for a few thousand and in a month.

Then the FCC decided that it'll be a good idea to determine what I can and can't watch and hear.

As I overpay for it, and the local farmers go out of business because the government subsidizes rich farmers.

The FDA then takes 10 to 20 years to approve a life saving drug where as a private, independent labotory could have done it quicker and cheaper.

As more than half of the price of gas is on taxes and the government taxes ethonal producers to hell so we HAVE to use petrol fuel.

The school which is severly underfunded and undersupplied.

As I wait for my package from UPS, for a week, I sign for the package sent to me yesterday via Fed-Ex

But then I have to read a 100 page manual to use a ladder or wrench, and thanks to the labour union I can sue the boss for discrimination if I don't get a promotion because I'm a woman.

Clockcat, have you ever wondered the government does this stuff and private companies don't IS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT MADE IT ILLEGAL FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES TO DO IT!