Do we really only care about ourselves?
Offline http://abcnews.go.com/2020/superfreakonomics-motivates-people-give-charity/Story?id=8893253&page=1
The overwhelming weight of scientific evidence is yes. With charity, there is always strings of self benefit involved. We praise people that are "unselfish" and punish "selfish" acts. All this does is create a reward and punishment for our "unselfish" motives.
I don't believe rational thought or atheism can be advanced until we drop the notion of morality, ethics and unselfish love. We're all selfish hedonists. If we start with this truth, maybe we can begin to develop alternatives to things like religion. Just drop the 'I'm more moral or more ethical than others" act and the phony liberal compassion and the phony conservative "I'll pray for you" compassion. You can't fool any thinking person.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
- Login to post comments
.
sorry, double post.( f**k ! )
Look at how religion operates. You can choose to go to a liberal or conservative church or anything in between. You can choose any moral standard that works for you. If you want to break the rules of morality for you denomination, go ahead and ask God to forgive you later. You can show compassion by just praying or if you feel like it. In other words whatever is convenient for you.
But society has created a reward for being 'brave' and punishment for being a 'coward'. Plus we have some instincts that make us feel good when we help other people. It amazes me how people will call an avalanche rescue dog brave for going into a dangerous situations when all it's doing is following it's instinct and conditioning. When people do 'heroic' acts it's to get approval and the good feelings not because they are moral or brave.
I put my life in danger doing extreme sports. It's to get the high from doing these activities. A drug addict may shoot up and put his life at risk to get a fix. What's the real difference between a rescue hero, an extreme sports addict or a drug addict? They all put their lives at risk to get some kind of reward out of it.
Brazilian Ants Sacrifice a Few Relatives Each Day for the Greater Good
Is it altruism or instinct that is driving these ants? And why should I think your underlying motivation is any different than a sacrificing ant or a rescue dog?
Except pumping iron is a lot of hard work all the time. Being a 'hero' is maybe something you have to do once. I predict you will do whatever is most convenient for you.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Well I suppose it's some kind of instinct nature has place in me as a survival mechanism. I do enjoy seeing some people that have treated me badly when something crappy happens to them. Our ancestors evolved in a world where you had to make friends and keep potential enemies from harming you. So I believe every person would have a desire to help those in your social group and to seek punishment and revenge against those that harm you.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Just a personal note regarding morality and religion. I am not religious, I'm an atheists so the morality equals convenience, just ask God to forgive me concept would not be a standard that is of much use to me. I assume that is accurate for you as well.
Instincts are powerful and pervasive, as they were intended to be. Having said that, I don't see any equivalency between humans and ants as ants have never demonstrated any indicators that would even approach the threshold of variables in behavior that is common to humans. At this point I have yet to see evidence of ants making a career change, struggle with job pressure, try to get a promotion, go through a mid-life crisis, go through episodes of mental illness. Ants do kill other species of ant competitors but we as humans don't call it murder do we ? They simply do not possess the level of volition or culpability for their own actions as humans so I do not consider them to be a valid metaphor.
Instincts in higher life forms are present but they are coupled to an intelligence that stands as a counterbalance. Whereas ants may never deviate from this genetic imperative, humans do deviate from that imperative....frequently. Instincts or no instincts the outcome in any situation is never a forgone conclusion when it involves humans.
Societal conditioning be damned, I can choose to either behave in an altruistic, "compassionate" manner or I can choose not to. In the final analysis the choice is entirely within my own hands. The outcome in not predetermined. My perception of proper or improper behavior is indeed influenced by my environment but my conformity to those standards will always be a reflection of my arbitrary will .
I have one last question for you and then I'm going to bail from this thread:
Assume you came upon a situation where it appeared you were the only person who was able to save a child from imminent death and you went ahead and rescued the child. Did you do it for the same reasons as you ascribe to the rest of us ?
Not trying to be a smart ass or anything I was just wondering if you included yourself within the same category.
Cheers.
Nature has given ants and humans the desire, to survive and propagate the genes. What's different about humans is having a complex cognitive brain. This just give us the ability to contemplate or follow a planned strategy to do what the genetic code has instructed us to do. We don't have any free will to change what we want. So the ant doesn't experience these things because he doesn't have this complex contemplative brain that is always driven to seek happiness and avoid pain.
We don't call it murder when someone kills in self defense or war. We only call it murder when we seek retribution(a complex social strategy we use for survival). So the only difference between us and the ants is we're playing a more complex game. They're playing go fish, we're playing poker. The goal is still to win.
When have humans ever deviated from this imperative? What humans do is follow complex strategies to achieve our imperatives. We delay pleasure, we work at a job we hate for some long term gain, we can understand trade offs. Part of this complex strategy is inventing the concept of morality, which really is nothing more than social pressure to conform to the groups goals.
But you'll feel good about being 'compassionate' and others with think well of you for being so generous. You won't be 'compassionate' if it inconveniences you too much or for too long. You don't have free will for anything else.
Have you ever heard the interviews from 'heroes' that do these rescues? They always say "I didn't even think about, I just ran in an rescued the kid". So this seems like this is instinct and conditioning. So I'm not sure how I would react. I know one time I attacked a vicious Rottweiler that to rescue my dog, not even thinking about what might happen. I've been in fights were the adrenaline took over and there was no contemplation about what I should do. So I don't think free will enters into the equation.
Suppose there was a child in a burning car you came upon. You went into rescue the kid, but it so hot that your hand would pull away if got too close. Your instinct's force you to pull away from anything that is extremely hot. So how do you overcome this? Or is this an example that we really don't have free will? You can't rescue the kid because your instincts for self preservation overcome any desire to rescue.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen